Re: Blower intakes and efi?
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1213411
04/10/12 06:59 AM
04/10/12 06:59 AM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,388 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,388
Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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I have asked Rich at FASTMANefi a few times, and he splits the system and puts injectors above and below. He says he wouldn't do it any other way. The uppers seem to be to keep the blower cool, and the lower port injectors keep the engine happy and in its correct A/F.. The older blower intakes do not lend themselves well to this, so the Indy intake is one of the few choices you have.... http://www.fastmanefi.com/images/Supercharged%20EFI%20Hemi.wmv
Last edited by Dragula; 04/10/12 07:01 AM.
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Re: Blower intakes and efi?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#1213415
04/10/12 04:43 PM
04/10/12 04:43 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 12,388 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
Dragula
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Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY
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Quote:
I'll try sending a message to rich and ask him about what he does.
Quote:
But with port EFI, can't you just adjust every cylinder seperatly with sequential injection?
Yes, in theory. However I wasn't planning on having the capability of individual cylinder datalogging.
Stuff like that becomes information over load. I try to avoid that much with efi.
He stated that with the injectors below the blower, the engine is a lot happier, responsive, and easier to keep in tune. Obviously a poor intake or poor distribution from the blower isn't going to get better with efi, but you can read the plugs and account for your leanest one and go up on the whole map, or fix the distribution issue, or both. You just don't want to be too lean anywhere. If its a little richer on some, it will survive, but not lean. I had some distribution issues on my normally aspirated bug catcher efi Hemi, and choose to add a spacer and do some grinding. Ok, actually, lots of grinding to get more air to certain cylinders, and it helped a lot. I changed nothing on the efi to compensate for the difference cylinder to cylinder, just went after it like you would on any carburated engine.
Last edited by Dragula; 04/10/12 04:50 PM.
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Re: Blower intakes and efi?
[Re: cudacustoms1]
#1213419
04/11/12 02:31 AM
04/11/12 02:31 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
OP
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Manitoba, Canada
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Quote:
Is there a reason why you don't want to run injectors above the blower.
Basically because I plan to drive this build on the street a lot too and figure driveability will be much better with the fuel at the intake ports.
When you're driving around normally and not building boost, I would think the rotors and everything would stay cool enough to be fine, but when boost starts and the alcohol/water injection system turns on that should do an ample job of cooling everything, no?
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Re: Blower intakes and efi?
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#1213420
04/11/12 03:15 AM
04/11/12 03:15 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,181 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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I Win
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Posts: 43,181
Bend,OR USA
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How about using both, I did on the first blown EFI motor I built, 35 lb per hour on top and 55 lb per hour on the bottom. That was a long time ago and we ended up removing the lower ones and switch to bigger 85 lb injectors on the top. That was 499 inch all aluminum KB street hemi block with Dart cast heads, 10:71 with a Bug or Bird catcher(3 hole ,3000 CFM at WOT), can't remember which Due to mismatch parts from BDS that turned into turd soup It ended up with a Littlefield 10:71 and Motech EFI, that worked good Good luck
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Blower intakes and efi?
[Re: Maximus_Wedges]
#1213423
04/11/12 02:12 PM
04/11/12 02:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 329 N.Y.
VZCharger
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 329
N.Y.
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Rich did the EFI setup for my car. Has injectors both above and below. When I was originally going to do this he said if I was only going to do one of the other I think he said that it should be the ones above; but definitely recommended both. So I bit the bullet and bought a new intake, from Indy (not the Mod-man one) with the injector ports done with fuel rails. Motor was dynoed and put in the car but I have yet to drive it.
70 Charger blown injected BB
07 Charger Daytona Plum Crazy #389
69 Coronet ragtop
96 Ram "Garlits Edition"
88 Conquest TSi
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Re: Blower intakes and efi?
[Re: Dragula]
#1213425
04/11/12 04:37 PM
04/11/12 04:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 329 N.Y.
VZCharger
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Its a 500 cu in wedge motor. Nothing spectacular Indy SR heads, 8-71 Kuhl blower, slightly underdriven (dont remember how many PSI its generating)
It dynoed right at 800 hp @ 6,400RPM, with a touch over 700 ft lb in real early.
Has a lot more in it. The injectors were too small to go much more, but its plenty for me as is.
70 Charger blown injected BB
07 Charger Daytona Plum Crazy #389
69 Coronet ragtop
96 Ram "Garlits Edition"
88 Conquest TSi
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Re: Blower intakes and efi?
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1213427
04/11/12 07:49 PM
04/11/12 07:49 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 329 N.Y.
VZCharger
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Yup. Had to dig for it.
275/282 duration at .020 .560/.555 gross lift 114 separation
Here is the Indy intake. Very nice beefy piece. Though dealing with Indy was.............
70 Charger blown injected BB
07 Charger Daytona Plum Crazy #389
69 Coronet ragtop
96 Ram "Garlits Edition"
88 Conquest TSi
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Re: Blower intakes and efi?
[Re: VZCharger]
#1213428
04/11/12 08:08 PM
04/11/12 08:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938 Sonora CA
Mopar_Rich
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,938
Sonora CA
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EFI when using a Roots supercharger
Back when I owned Mopar Engines West we spent some serious time testing various configuration of EFI and Roots blowers. Here are some comments from our testing:
* Throttle Body: Many people liked the look of the Enderle or BDS “bug catcher”. But these flow so much air that it’s hard to get a stable idle RPM because of butterfly sealing and inconsistent idle return. Also, the tip-in just off idle can be hard to control because the increase in airflow is dramatic with a very small change in throttle. For a street driven car at least one port should be totally blocked off.
*IAC: Provisions should be made for a remote IAC. This can be plumbed into the back of the injector plate.
* Injectors above or below the blower: Answer -> both. The injectors above the blower keep the blower happy and the injectors at the ports allow for better idle control and off idle tip-in. Also, running sequential injection allows for individual cylinder control which is much more important in a blown engine (see testing).
Testing: 1) We ran several tests with Roots blowers with fuel delivery only above the blower, and found that the rotation of the rotors can bias the charge causing inconsistent cylinder charge at low and mid RPMs. Also we found an airflow bias toward the front of the engine. When injecting only above the blower there’s nothing you can do about that.
2) For all-out drag engines injector location didn’t matter all that much, but in a street engine control of the low RPM torque is critical to good drivability. I have driven cars where injection was only above the blower (not by me) and the customer was very happy with the set up. However, when analyzing the exhaust with a wideband O2 verified that these engines were set up VERY rich. Far to rich, in my opinion, for a reliable street engine. Plugs were black and cylinder wash was prevalent. You can live with this in a short duration drag engine, but not on a long-term reliable street engine.
BTW: We have used street blowers with no seals, so minimal cooling requirements, and injected only below the blower with great success. Of course a blower like this doesn't create much boost but it still "looks good".
Last edited by Mopar_Rich; 04/11/12 08:13 PM.
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