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Firm Feel box vs shimming the PS pump
#1193527
03/08/12 07:48 PM
03/08/12 07:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
OP
Senior Management
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OP
Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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What is the difference between a Firm Feel box and a regular steering box?
Is it just the required effort?
Can you get a typical rebuilt box and shim the pump pressure valve and accomplish the same thing for less money?
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Firm Feel box vs shimming the PS pump
[Re: feets]
#1193528
03/08/12 11:13 PM
03/08/12 11:13 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,118
85086
moparpollack
Lil Herman
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Lil Herman
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,118
85086
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Quote:
What is the difference between a Firm Feel box and a regular steering box?
Is it just the required effort?
Can you get a typical rebuilt box and shim the pump pressure valve and accomplish the same thing for less money?
Everyone likes the cost of the shim deal and the FF is expensive because of the shipping cost. Why not try the cheap first?
56 Plaza 63 D100 step side 67 Coronet, 68 Roadrunner, 69 Super Bees, 69 Coronet 500 convertible, 70 Roadrunner Post, 79 D150 360, and a severe case of Mopar a,d,d
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Re: Firm Feel box vs shimming the PS pump
[Re: moparpollack]
#1193529
03/09/12 02:17 AM
03/09/12 02:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
OP
Senior Management
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OP
Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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I never understood the reason to pay for a new box (or additional upgrade) if all they're doing is reducing line pressure.
Is there anything else different in the box?
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Firm Feel box vs shimming the PS pump
[Re: feets]
#1193530
03/09/12 02:32 AM
03/09/12 02:32 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT
Management Trainee
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Management Trainee
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
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You can not reduce pressure in the gear box, instead they increase the stiffness of the reaction springs, the reaction springs essentially act as the control valves as the steering wheel is turned it causes one or the other reaction spring to deflect which shifts the spool in the control valve... Full pump pressure is still used...
The shim trick reduces pressure and since pressure & flow are tied to one another the reduced volume causes a reduction in assist... It works but in the hydraulic field it's not considered the right way of reducing assist...
"The Armies of our ancestors were lucky, in that they were not trailed by a second army of pencil pushers."
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Re: Firm Feel box vs shimming the PS pump
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#1193531
03/09/12 09:08 AM
03/09/12 09:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,756
London, England
Gavin
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,756
London, England
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The short answer to your question is this (from FF website)
"All FFI Power Steering boxes are thoroughly cleaned and inspected, the cases are machined for roller bearing sector supports and the worm gear assemblies are resized, the box is then fitted with Firm Feel's exclusive reaction springs"
The typical parts store rebuilds don't do the machining, resizing etc. So IMHO the best reason for getting a FF box is actually the first part of that sentence - that you get a properly rebuilt box.
The second bit (the firmness/reaction spring etc) is also something I want, but I'd rather have a stock-effort box that is tight than a sloppy firm box (actually I want both but you get my point)
If you have a box that is in great shape, no slop etc, then do the washer thing and enjoy!
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Re: Firm Feel box vs shimming the PS pump
[Re: Gavin]
#1193532
03/09/12 02:29 PM
03/09/12 02:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
1_WILD_RT
Management Trainee
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Management Trainee
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 27,347
Today? Who Knows?
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Quote:
The short answer to your question is this (from FF website)
"All FFI Power Steering boxes are thoroughly cleaned and inspected, the cases are machined for roller bearing sector supports and the worm gear assemblies are resized, the box is then fitted with Firm Feel's exclusive reaction springs"
The typical parts store rebuilds don't do the machining, resizing etc. So IMHO the best reason for getting a FF box is actually the first part of that sentence - that you get a properly rebuilt box.
The second bit (the firmness/reaction spring etc) is also something I want, but I'd rather have a stock-effort box that is tight than a sloppy firm box (actually I want both but you get my point)
If you have a box that is in great shape, no slop etc, then do the washer thing and enjoy!
That is a little deceptive... Most boxes already had a roller bearing sector support, the only boxes that don't are early A body boxes...
"The Armies of our ancestors were lucky, in that they were not trailed by a second army of pencil pushers."
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Re: Firm Feel box vs shimming the PS pump
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#1193533
03/09/12 03:11 PM
03/09/12 03:11 PM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 199
NC
1970A66
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 199
NC
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I agree with Gavin and Wild RT ^^
So........I just installed a FF Stage 2 box in January, because my original was way loose inside. I also just did the shim mod to my Saginaw PS pump 2 weeks ago.
According to Mopar Action magazine and as stated above, if your gear box is good and tight, as well as everything else under the car(though doubtful after 40 years) try the shim mod.
I bought the FF box because of all the positive reviews especially from Mopar Action tech editor Rick Ehrenberg who posts on here. It made a day/night difference in the car handling/feel. Worth the money for sure. Every other steering and suspension part was already new.
Now, I still wanted a better road feel similar to my every day modern car so I did the shim mod. I went from .065 to .105 thick shim/washers. WOW.....another step change for the better!! The steering wheel has a heavier feel, feels very much like my Acura.
I actually may try .125 shim for more feel.
The added shim eliminates the over assist twitchy stock feel.
Last edited by 1970A66; 03/09/12 03:17 PM.
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Re: Firm Feel box vs shimming the PS pump
[Re: 1970A66]
#1193534
03/11/12 07:57 PM
03/11/12 07:57 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,884
Oregon
hooziewhatsit
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,884
Oregon
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Are stiffer springs something we could do ourselves? I emailed FF a while back and they said they don't work on truck boxes...
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: Firm Feel box vs shimming the PS pump
[Re: feets]
#1193538
03/13/12 12:36 AM
03/13/12 12:36 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,439
So Cal
Sinitro
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,439
So Cal
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One word of caution about dealing with Firm Feel... I bought a box from them, installed it and it leaked.... When I contacted them about shipping it back, the guy on the phone was very arrogant and had a major attitude problem.. They wanted me to pay the freight for sending the box back while telling me it would take at least a week to check it out and get back to me... Meantime I had the car torn apart plus the lost time/labor switching out boxes...  Suffice it to say I have never dealt with Firm Feel again.. And I am glad there are other vendors that sell comparable products for our Mopars and care about the customer. Just my $0.02... 
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Re: Firm Feel box vs shimming the PS pump
[Re: Sinitro]
#1193542
03/18/12 06:22 PM
03/18/12 06:22 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
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Quote:
One word of caution about dealing with Firm Feel...
I bought a box from them, installed it and it leaked....
When I contacted them about shipping it back, the guy on the phone was very arrogant and had a major attitude problem..
They wanted me to pay the freight for sending the box back while telling me it would take at least a week to check it out and get back to me...
Meantime I had the car torn apart plus the lost time/labor switching out boxes...
Suffice it to say I have never dealt with Firm Feel again..
And I am glad there are other vendors that sell comparable products for our Mopars and care about the customer.
Just my $0.02...
You're probably not the first person who had a leak. Leaks are probably far more common due to installation mistakes versus workmanship mistakes, and they've probably been burned in the past from people claiming to have leaky boxes, comping the freight back, only to find the dummy cross-threaded a line fitting or something and lied about it on the phone.
If I was running this business I wouldn't have jumped to take the box back either. Try seeing it from their side.
1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon
1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
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Re: Firm Feel box vs shimming the PS pump
[Re: HotRodDave]
#1193543
03/18/12 07:01 PM
03/18/12 07:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,439
So Cal
Sinitro
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,439
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
One word of caution about dealing with Firm Feel...
I bought a box from them, installed it and it leaked....
When I contacted them about shipping it back, the guy on the phone was very arrogant and had a major attitude problem..
They wanted me to pay the freight for sending the box back while telling me it would take at least a week to check it out and get back to me...
Meantime I had the car torn apart plus the lost time/labor switching out boxes...
Suffice it to say I have never dealt with Firm Feel again..
And I am glad there are other vendors that sell comparable products for our Mopars and care about the customer.
Just my $0.02...
Do you expect them to get you a rental car? No vendor will do that for you and very few will pay to ship it back either or the labor time to swap it. I run a very busy full service auto repair shop and anytime we have a parts failure under warranty I have to pay the labor for the warranty even if it is clearly the vendors fault. I file labor claims all the time and only one time in all my years of service did I get any labor money from the vendor. Also about the shipping, it is not there fault you live a long ways from where you bought the part, why should they have to pay shipping? It is nice when a vendor does that but not required.
I can not argue wheather or not he had a bad atitude, mabey his brother just died or... or mabey he is just mean  that sounds like your only good complaint.
I expect them to stand behind their products..
Another point is that since I was getting the car ready for a show, I needed the box shipped by 2-day air which was @ a much higher $ rate.
Together with the cost of box and 2-day air charges we spent almost $600 not counting my time, and his BS response was to send it back at my cost which would have been another $100..
Don't think so, today we have other vendor choices and when we bought/installed a competitor's product they actually shipped it next day @ their cost. And it didn't leak..
I will not accept his BS attitude, and if I was located close by his shop, he would have received back the box tossed through his front window..
I didn't expect compensation for my labor but expected they could of at least supplied me a replacement instead of a leaking box and a pile of BS.. I have worked in a customer service envoirment for many years and would never have treated a customer his rude way. There are ways of handling returns without all of the drama..
I just hope others don't have to go through the same.
Just my $0.02..
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Re: Firm Feel box vs shimming the PS pump
[Re: Sinitro]
#1193545
03/19/12 04:05 AM
03/19/12 04:05 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
One word of caution about dealing with Firm Feel...
I bought a box from them, installed it and it leaked....
When I contacted them about shipping it back, the guy on the phone was very arrogant and had a major attitude problem..
They wanted me to pay the freight for sending the box back while telling me it would take at least a week to check it out and get back to me...
Meantime I had the car torn apart plus the lost time/labor switching out boxes...
Suffice it to say I have never dealt with Firm Feel again..
And I am glad there are other vendors that sell comparable products for our Mopars and care about the customer.
Just my $0.02...
Do you expect them to get you a rental car? No vendor will do that for you and very few will pay to ship it back either or the labor time to swap it. I run a very busy full service auto repair shop and anytime we have a parts failure under warranty I have to pay the labor for the warranty even if it is clearly the vendors fault. I file labor claims all the time and only one time in all my years of service did I get any labor money from the vendor. Also about the shipping, it is not there fault you live a long ways from where you bought the part, why should they have to pay shipping? It is nice when a vendor does that but not required.
I can not argue wheather or not he had a bad atitude, mabey his brother just died or... or mabey he is just mean that sounds like your only good complaint.
I expect them to stand behind their products..
Another point is that since I was getting the car ready for a show, I needed the box shipped by 2-day air which was @ a much higher $ rate.
Together with the cost of box and 2-day air charges we spent almost $600 not counting my time, and his BS response was to send it back at my cost which would have been another $100..
Don't think so, today we have other vendor choices and when we bought/installed a competitor's product they actually shipped it next day @ their cost. And it didn't leak..
I will not accept his BS attitude, and if I was located close by his shop, he would have received back the box tossed through his front window..
I didn't expect compensation for my labor but expected they could of at least supplied me a replacement instead of a leaking box and a pile of BS.. I have worked in a customer service envoirment for many years and would never have treated a customer his rude way. There are ways of handling returns without all of the drama..
I just hope others don't have to go through the same.
Just my $0.02..
Who the heck shipped you a custom power steering gearbox via next day air on their dime?
1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon
1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
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