413 rant...
#117990
09/09/08 11:17 AM
09/09/08 11:17 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 300 MA
Greg55_99
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 300
MA
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OK, RANT ON! Every once in a while, I'll see the odd question about building a 413. Considering my own background with this engine, I'll have to ask.. "Why?" Nearly 30 years ago, I bought a nearly new 413 motor home engine from a guy that ran a machine shop. The motor home caught fire and burned down around the engine. The motor had less than a 1000 miles on it. Picked it up for a good price…. And that's where the whole thing goes out the window…. At that time, you could still order new factory pistons for the 413. I did. Got a set of flat tops… Of course, you ask why? Well, the motor home\truck engines come with dished low compression pistons. The engine also had a gear driven cam (that rotated backwards), heavy heads with extra coolant passages (and offer zero performance), heavy water pump housing, fat rods and an intake that weighed a ton. I essentially threw out everything that came with the engine except the block, crank, rods and oil pan and replace those with 440 items.
The point is, I'd spent lots of money… and wound up with a 440 with a smaller bore… I would have been better off just rebuilding a 440 and been done with it. So, when someone posts "I've found this 413 motor home engine for cheap and want to build it..", I say… "Pass". There are zillions of 440's waiting for some TLC…
Rant off…
Greg
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: Dakota_Don]
#117994
09/09/08 04:18 PM
09/09/08 04:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,861 Riverside, Ca
R70RUNNER
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,861
Riverside, Ca
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Can you say "Forged crank" Boys and Girls? I knew you could. I sold the heads and pump housing for $50 and ended up with a complete RB electronic ignition, rebuilt alt, 4bbl intake, a bucket full of correct marked bolts, and a nice short block ,the '72 I got even has a 6 bolt flange, All for going to get the thing... BTW, have some plans for what to do with that dish piston turd sometime in the future CHEAP... parts are falling into place now
Current cars: 2000 Dak Quad Cab, 2012 Challenger,1970 Road Runner, 1994 Firehawk
1966 Coronet post sedan, 1988 Corvette, 2005 Magnum RT all SOLD
R70RUNNER<---VP Inland Empire Chapter of the MPM
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: Greg55_99]
#117996
09/09/08 04:51 PM
09/09/08 04:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,861 Riverside, Ca
R70RUNNER
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,861
Riverside, Ca
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I see your point, but honestly if your "building" an engine, most of that stuff is going anyway. I have a ton of parts lying around from 3 other engine builds in the last 5years... so my shopping list is pushrods and cam selection Got a friendly deal on a pair of low milage 902's with stainless valves, I debated stroking it to 472, but after another buddy offered me a rebuilt/conveted 6-71 blower for the cost of parts.... Why not just shove 5-7psi through the thing and call it good for a street motor, The real problem is off the shelf piston selection. or lack there of on the 413...kills the build cost wise.
Current cars: 2000 Dak Quad Cab, 2012 Challenger,1970 Road Runner, 1994 Firehawk
1966 Coronet post sedan, 1988 Corvette, 2005 Magnum RT all SOLD
R70RUNNER<---VP Inland Empire Chapter of the MPM
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: Greg55_99]
#117997
09/11/08 04:36 AM
09/11/08 04:36 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 293 salem, oregon. usa
elmor
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 293
salem, oregon. usa
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A lot of guys, myself included, are NOT buying motorhome 413's. We are trying to build early 60's engines from New Yorkers and such, and we're not dealing with funky heads and water pump housings and all that crap. Your first mistake was buying a MOTORHOME 413, and expecting to be like a 440. I agree that a 440, or 400 are probably better starting points for building high horsepower, but sometimes you've gotta use what you've got. I think it's cool to use something that not everyone else has, and if you look at factory specs, you'll see that early 413's had as much, and in some cases, more torque than a stock 440. These engines will run hard with very little tweaking. I got my 413 for nothing! I don't know of anyone that's giving away 440's.
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: elmor]
#117998
09/11/08 04:53 AM
09/11/08 04:53 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,474 Florida STAYcation
dOc !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,474
Florida STAYcation
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But I looooove my 413 .... And YES .. the ticket IS flat-top or domed pistons. The motorhome I have will have those ... plus a ton of flow-work on those "funky" heads. And a roller-cam AND a better fuel-delivery-system. You have a gasser tow-rig ? ....you WANT one of these mills !!
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: dOc !]
#117999
09/11/08 05:46 AM
09/11/08 05:46 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291 Kent, Wa
340SHORTY
Truck Nut
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Truck Nut
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
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I had a 72 class A Winnebago that has the Ind 413. That tank weighed 14,500 pounds with my stuff in it. A few years ago I went on a out of town job and hauled my old 5,000 + pound 73 F250 4x4 on my 1,500 pound trailer behind it. I got over 13 miles to a gallon of fuel. I liked my 413.
I am truckless..
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: Greg55_99]
#118000
09/11/08 07:32 AM
09/11/08 07:32 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 420 Central Ohio
Ledman_70
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 420
Central Ohio
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I'm running a 65 413 in my 64 Polara that's been bored to 426 cubes. It's running stock flat top pistons, 513" Lunati cam, Edlebrock intake, 906 heads, headers, 750 Holley, and 4-spd. It's not a race car, but stomping it at 20mph puts it sideways through 2nd gear, and the torque is massive! I can take off in 4th gear. The rear has 3:91's, so I know that makes all the difference, but I regularly take off in 2nd in normal driving and it's not even noticeable. I know you can get a lot more from a 440, but 413's are usually a lot cheaper...I know where one is sitting with a 727 on it for $200.
Jeff Adams
64 426 Polara
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: Greg55_99]
#118004
09/12/08 01:02 AM
09/12/08 01:02 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
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I agree the motor home 413's did come with a lot of odd ball parts, but most of that stuff you're junking anyway. You can slap on a set of aftermarket heads, a mild cam with new rockers and pushrods, new t-chain, timing cover/water pump housing can be scored at the junkyard or moparts/ebay for cheap enough, or just buy new, etc. Pretty much you can buy everything you will re-use when you rebuild that 440 block you will buy some day. As far as rebuilding the 413's short block, I will say that yeah, that's very questionable and probaly not worth it. But for something to just drop in and beat the tar out of without worrying about it, the 413 is a decent choice.
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#118006
09/12/08 01:18 AM
09/12/08 01:18 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,213 Los Angeles, CA
Mobarge
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,213
Los Angeles, CA
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I wanted a 440 for my Plymouth, but this 413 literally dropped in my lap. Deal was too good to pass up: Freshly machined, magnafluxed, balanced, blueprinted, 440 six pack rods, worked 516 heads, and $800 worth of brand new Arias flat top aluminum pistons. The builder who hooked me up with it builds 413s, 440s and Hemis for the high-dollar '62 to '65 cars built by Bob Mosher. It's actually a very strange block - no casting number on the side, but on the pad it says it's a 1973 truck block, which I assume is different than a motorhome engine.
'71 SSP - SOLD!
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: Mobarge]
#118007
09/12/08 07:46 AM
09/12/08 07:46 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 856 1.5 hours SE of Pittsburg, Pa
geno440
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 856
1.5 hours SE of Pittsburg, Pa
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i got 3 of them if any one wants to buy one ...... lol
Love them 68 MOPARS! GTS 340 auto, Charger R/T 440 4-speed, Superbee 383 auto, GTX 440 auto, D100 (new front frame 5.7 hemi - in process), Formula S 340 4-Speed A/C (it's green), 383 auto Roadrunner (maybe a hemi - waiting) and a 68 W200 Power Wagon. Drivers: 07 Cummins and 14 Ecodiesel 4x4.
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: Greg55_99]
#118012
09/12/08 06:09 PM
09/12/08 06:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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Quick, bring the UT machine!
STAT!
R.
It would be a pretty safe bet that they would be stouter than passengercar blocks but with Mopar casting quality being what it is, yor guess is as good as mine.
For those who say the 413 has more torque than a 440 get real. If built with exactly the same heads, compression and cam the 440 will always make more torque at a given rpm because it is larger, and has a larger bore diameter that helps the heads flow more, Max torque comes at the point of peak cylinder filling. Now comparing a 440 with a big cam with a 413 with a dowel for a cam things may vary. But as there is absolutely no difference between the basic engines than the bore diameter, bigger always wins.
My problem is this: I hate to see something good tossed out. There are thousands of 413s out there and the supply of 440s is getting smaller. The major diffeence is bore diameter and we cannot do much about that. The next problem is the 413 isn't a very big bigblock (a 4" stroke 340 is the same size)and that's where the stroker crank comes in. But many folks see that great big lump of cast iron and ASSUME it must be worth megabucks. There is a MH 413 advertised locally for $1500! It is still sitting in the MH, never been touched, and the guy thinks it is golden. There have been a number of overpriced 413s on the local market. Hint: not every 413 is a max wedge! Especially if it was running an irrigation pump! So I can't find a nearly-free 413 block to test my ideas on because people think they are valuable. At the same time board members who know a thing or two have had to scrap 413s because no one wanted to buy them. Screwy. These blocks were too far away for me. But that's why I throw in my cheap stroker idea every time the 413 thing comes up.
Last edited by dogdays; 09/12/08 06:20 PM.
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: dOc !]
#118014
09/13/08 03:49 AM
09/13/08 03:49 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 293 salem, oregon. usa
elmor
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 293
salem, oregon. usa
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Yeah, I think I'll run right out and buy that 400 horse, grove pump, max wedge. Where do these people get their information? Just because it's a 413, or a 426, doesn't make it a max wedge! Every time I see or hear that crap, I get so frustrated I wanna slap the bear whiz outta these guys. Probably chevy and furd guys have been beaten so much by mopars, that they think EVERY big block is a max wedge. I mean, c'mon, they couldn't have been beaten by just any, everyday, run of the mill, mopar big block!
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: GODSCOUNTRY340]
#118017
09/13/08 05:42 PM
09/13/08 05:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,861 Riverside, Ca
R70RUNNER
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,861
Riverside, Ca
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Ok. went by G-Bob's this am and picked up his used 902's with nice stainless valves and good springs, These were on his 440-6 motor before the eddys... Glenn...Thasks for the good guy deal So... Good news, the rocker gear from the MH 413 bolts right up. Bad news, the head bolts, as I suspected, are a no-go... So add them to the list. Blower intake and crank hub will be here early next week.
Current cars: 2000 Dak Quad Cab, 2012 Challenger,1970 Road Runner, 1994 Firehawk
1966 Coronet post sedan, 1988 Corvette, 2005 Magnum RT all SOLD
R70RUNNER<---VP Inland Empire Chapter of the MPM
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: R70RUNNER]
#118018
09/14/08 02:24 PM
09/14/08 02:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,610 Not2farfromNashville, TN
Rug_Trucker
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,610
Not2farfromNashville, TN
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someone got hosed for the $700 buy it now price.
Those 400HP 2bbl motors are pretty powerful!
$8000 is a bargain!
"The only thing to do for triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
"NUNQUAM NON PARATUS!"
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: Rug_Trucker]
#118021
09/14/08 03:25 PM
09/14/08 03:25 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,474 Florida STAYcation
dOc !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,474
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
someone got hosed for the $700 buy it now price.
Those 400HP 2bbl motors are pretty powerful!
$8000 is a bargain!
His bidder ?
bella337337( 0 ) Not a registered user .....
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: dOc !]
#118022
09/14/08 04:04 PM
09/14/08 04:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,033 Madison, Wisconsin
chrisnben
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,033
Madison, Wisconsin
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Funny, just picked up a '72 motorhome 413 yesterday. Wonder if anyone here would know if you CAN cut this to 4.25 bore (70 thousandths). I am putting a set of pocketed 906 heads that I have laying around on it, alum. intake, slap in a nice 509 MP cam, and hopefully a stock flat top piston (426). Cripe, I paid $200 for the thing with the 727 too. Not bad for $1000 rebuild. What, somewhere around 450HP/500 FT LBS? Having fun anyways- that's what it's about! OH yeah, It's going in my '69 2-door Valiant w/ 4.10 rear. Getty up.
'70 Cuda "Badfish 2"- in the works
Home of MoPar University- We school 'em one at a time!!
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Re: 413 rant...
[Re: 11secondC]
#118024
09/14/08 08:41 PM
09/14/08 08:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,576 Sarcoxie, MO, USA
MoPar Jamie
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,576
Sarcoxie, MO, USA
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I bought a 413 Motorhome motor out of a core pile carb to pan for $75 just so I could grap the steel crank. I kept that and traded the front sump pickup tube to a a buddy along with a 60s truck pan. Also kept the 3 bolt double roller timing chain for future wall art. The heads I think are on the shelf, oddballs for sure, and the intake is in the garage somewhere, carb was all busted up.
The rest went to the scrapper as it was wet and of no use.
- MoPar Jamie
1972 Fury III 4dr 1986 D-150 LWB Royal SE
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