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Please help diagnose my Durango #1124745
11/30/11 11:24 PM
11/30/11 11:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 627
My hovercraft is full of eels
DaveKanofsky Offline OP
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DaveKanofsky  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 627
My hovercraft is full of eels
Please help me diagnose what is wrong with my Durango.

It is a 1999 Durango, 2 wheel drive, 5.2L with 110K miles.

On Saturday night it drove just fine, on Sunday morning it wouldn’t start. It turns over just fine, but no sign of life. As soon as my wife heard it crank over too long, she said, “It’s not gonna start, this is exactly like it sounded (one day a month ago when it wouldn’t start in the morning, but when I tried it after work it stumbled to life and has been fine ever since).

My “clip-around the plug wire” type timing gun says there is spark going to all cylinders except cylinder 2. Even after changing the list of ignition related items below. I verified a decent looking spark by taking the #1 plug wire off, sticking in a new plug and resting it on the exhaust manifold.

There is fuel pressure in the fuel rail when I push in the valve, and the injectors are firing. I can hear them tick while cranking and I can smell the fuel.

While cranking it over I sprayed starting fluid down the wide open throttle body and still no sign of life. No backfire, no kick/burp/shutter/anything. This should pretty much take the fuel system out of the equation.

It has no active or pending diagnostic codes. Even after cranking it for 15 seconds with the code reader attached.

I have changed the coil, cap and rotor, and crank sensor, yet the symptoms have not changed. Still no sign of life, and still no spark in Cylinder 2.

WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE / EDUCATED GUESS / JUST PLAIN GUESS TO WHAT IS WRONG ? ? ?

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!

Last edited by DaveKanofsky; 11/30/11 11:26 PM.

MOPARS ONLY!
'69 Daytona, '16 Plum Crazy Challenger, '12 Durango, '01 Sebring conv't

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John 3:17
Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: DaveKanofsky] #1124746
11/30/11 11:37 PM
11/30/11 11:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
Master

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Engine controller but that should show a code

Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1124747
11/30/11 11:49 PM
11/30/11 11:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,874
Upstate, NY
sixpack4spd Offline
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sixpack4spd  Offline
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Posts: 2,874
Upstate, NY
WAG would be the Crank position sensor or the Cam position sensor. You'll find more info at http://www.dakota-durango.com/

Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: sixpack4spd] #1124748
12/01/11 12:01 AM
12/01/11 12:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 627
My hovercraft is full of eels
DaveKanofsky Offline OP
mopar
DaveKanofsky  Offline OP
mopar

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 627
My hovercraft is full of eels
I considered Engine controller and cam sensor too, but there's no codes darn it!

Thanks for the suggestions.


MOPARS ONLY!
'69 Daytona, '16 Plum Crazy Challenger, '12 Durango, '01 Sebring conv't

Chaplain, Racers For Christ (http://teamrfc.org/)
John 3:17
Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: DaveKanofsky] #1124749
12/01/11 01:43 AM
12/01/11 01:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11 Offline
super stock
dodgeboy11  Offline
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Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
Does your scanner communicate with the computer at all? I've seen them have no codes because the computer is fouled up and isn't setting any codes. Also, if it's getting spark and you sprayed starting fluid in, it should have run off the fluid. That it didn't tells me that whatever spark is getting there isn't sufficient to light off the fuel. Possible weak coil/wires/plugs. Pull off the coil wire and set it close to a ground and see what color the spark is. Should be blue with a good sharp snap to it. Also, check and make sure it's firing at the right time. Maybe the cam sensor in the distributor fouled up. My first gut feeling was the fuel pump, but as it didn't run on starting fluid, I'll rule that out as well.

Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: DaveKanofsky] #1124750
12/01/11 02:12 AM
12/01/11 02:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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MR_P_BODY  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
You do know there is a unloader circuit built in so
if its flooded hold it to the floor and crank it...
do not turn it to off.... just in case its just flooded

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 12/01/11 02:36 AM.
Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: DaveKanofsky] #1124751
12/01/11 02:14 AM
12/01/11 02:14 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
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LaRoy Engines Offline
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LaRoy Engines  Offline
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Posts: 559
Idaho
My son has a 1999. It is the ECM, his failed with the same symptoms. The 1999 Durango is infamous for the ECM failing.

Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: DaveKanofsky] #1124752
12/01/11 02:27 AM
12/01/11 02:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
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52savoy Offline
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52savoy  Offline
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Not sure where your located but Magnum V8s have had starting problems during wet weather. My '98 SST started acting like yours last year but just on rainy/cold days. I would let it sit for a day then it would start up just fine. I tuned it up last week because it was long overdue and haven't had any issues yet.
I've read that a faulty cold temp sensor or intake air temp sensor can cause it. I tried to remove and clean the IAT sensor a couple weeks ago but my torx driver rounded off. The IAT also gets carboned up and need to be cleaned on occasion. Like every year.....which I try to do.


and check the fuel pump fuse...

Last edited by 52savoy; 12/01/11 02:54 AM.
Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: 52savoy] #1124753
12/01/11 02:45 AM
12/01/11 02:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,231
State of retirement
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52savoy Offline
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52savoy  Offline
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State of retirement
Also found this post over at Dodge Forum.com...


When it's cold out, the ECU is counting on the preset, fixed parameters to keep the truck running. This program mode is called warm up mode or open loop mode.

There's two things that it depends on being correct in order to keep from stalling out and one is correct fuel pressure and, the other is correct air flow. If the fuel pressure is low, the mix is too lean to start a cold engine thus the reason for it stalling out. The pump may be fine and, the pressure may be fine once it's warmed up and running but, not adequate for cold starts.

The reason it why it won't start immediately after a stall out is because unburnt fuel remains sitting in the combustion chamber after the stall out. It can't start because it's partially flooded out and can't ignite that wet mixture.

After it evaporates a bit, then it starts back up. The same symptoms can be found with a leaky fuel injector as well. Same exact symptom after a stall out.

In this case, either you have a lean mix due to two things:

1. Low fuel pressure

2. Lack of air flow due to clogged IAC passages at the TB or, bad IAC motor

Both of those will cause the same exact issues. At the time when the truck is started, the IAC motor is supposed to open up a preset, fixed amount to allow proper air flow at startup. This is with the plates closed. During warm up mode, the ECU is not in control over the IAC. As stated, it's using preset, fixed parameter based values to set the gap at the IAC motor. In this mode, the ECU doesn't monitor the A/F mix as it's assuming that all systems are operating normally. It has no idea that it's not getting enough air or enough fuel. In this case, holding the throttle plates open is the only way to keep it running as it's the only way it's getting any air.

Once it reaches 180º, the ECU switches over to closed loop mode and begins to adjust the IAC gap, the timing, the injector pulse width, the coil pulses and uses all the sensors to make fine adjustments to achieve the proper A/F ratio. This is why when it's warm, it runs great.

Now, if you shut it down for ten minutes or so, it should still start back up just fine as it's still hot and will be running in that controlled mode. However, if it were to cool down below 180º, then you would see the same issue resurface. That's when you know it's an IAC related issue.

However, if after only a few minutes the problem resurfaces, it's leaning more towards low fuel pressure. Low fuel pressure creates hard starts in general and, the colder it gets, the worse it gets because it causes gas to contract thus reducing the pressure to the point where the vehicle won't start.

This is why in the summer you won't notice this as much. The heat causes the gas to expand thus increasing the pressure to within normal starting pressure.

But, do check both areas. I would first run this simple test before tearing anything apart and / or making any adjustments.

Turn the key to <ON> once and measure the psi at the rail. Do not start the truck at this time. Just turn it to <ON>. Turn the key to <OFF> and then to <ON> and measure the pressure at the rails. Repeat this one more time.

Note pressures on all attempts. ON your first go around, the reading should be up to or near full psi rating which is around 50 psi. If on attempt No 2 it is around 50, your still good to go. IF on attempt No 3 it is around 40 psi, you have a problem with your pump or, there's a leaky injector. If on any run, you note a fair amount of pressure drop, you have a problem. It should hold almost full pressure for quite a long time so, any drops and your looking at a bad pump or a leaky injector or even a possible fuel leak. I just want to inform you of all the possible causes here even though you may not have a fuel leak or leaky injector.

Now, for the IAC. There's no way of knowing what the motor steps are without using a good scan tool so, checking that is out. But, what you can do is simply disconnect the battery and then pull the air hat, remove the sensor harnesses, remove the throttle cables, remove the four top bolts and take the TB off. Flip it over and note the bottom, rear area. If it's all black and sooty, it's most likely clogged up. To clean that, simply take all the sensors off first followed by removing any gasket material that may have stuck to the bottom. Then, using Acetone or TB cleaner, and a variety of other solvent such as Lacquer thinner, turpentine, mineral spirits, denatured alcohol etc, and scrub the crap out of it until all that black stuff is gone.

Be very careful when you clean the IAC assembly for that pintel assembly can be damaged very easily. Do not bend, push or apply any side load or direct pressure on it at all. Clean all the black stuff off as well as you can.

Using a new gasket, reassemble it and place it back on the intake. Torque it down to 19 - 20 ft lbs max. Attach all the vac lines, sensor harnesses and throttle cables. Place the air hat back on and your good to test it now.

If it was the IAC, it should now start and run fine.

Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: LaRoy Engines] #1124754
12/01/11 09:39 AM
12/01/11 09:39 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 627
My hovercraft is full of eels
DaveKanofsky Offline OP
mopar
DaveKanofsky  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 627
My hovercraft is full of eels
Quote:

My son has a 1999. It is the ECM, his failed with the same symptoms. The 1999 Durango is infamous for the ECM failing.




Do you know if his threw any codes? Thanks for the suggestion!


MOPARS ONLY!
'69 Daytona, '16 Plum Crazy Challenger, '12 Durango, '01 Sebring conv't

Chaplain, Racers For Christ (http://teamrfc.org/)
John 3:17
Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: DaveKanofsky] #1124755
12/01/11 09:52 AM
12/01/11 09:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 627
My hovercraft is full of eels
DaveKanofsky Offline OP
mopar
DaveKanofsky  Offline OP
mopar

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 627
My hovercraft is full of eels
Thanks 52savoy!


MOPARS ONLY!
'69 Daytona, '16 Plum Crazy Challenger, '12 Durango, '01 Sebring conv't

Chaplain, Racers For Christ (http://teamrfc.org/)
John 3:17
Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: DaveKanofsky] #1124756
12/01/11 12:13 PM
12/01/11 12:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
I Live Here
HotRodDave  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
Put a set of plugs and wires in it before you spend (waste) any more time with diag. If you are getting voltage flow into the wires (you already confirmed this with the timing light check you did) and you spray some ether in and you get no start then it is either fouled out plugs (very likely with a borderline spark quality) and you have already proven you have at least one bad plug wire and that is probably the reason your plugs are fouled out.


P.S. DONT USE BOSCH PLUGS !!!!


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: HotRodDave] #1124757
12/01/11 03:40 PM
12/01/11 03:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 627
My hovercraft is full of eels
DaveKanofsky Offline OP
mopar
DaveKanofsky  Offline OP
mopar

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 627
My hovercraft is full of eels
Thanks HotRodDave. I did pull a few of the plugs including #2, they all looked good and the gaps were still correct.

BTW - I use champions in my Mopars.


MOPARS ONLY!
'69 Daytona, '16 Plum Crazy Challenger, '12 Durango, '01 Sebring conv't

Chaplain, Racers For Christ (http://teamrfc.org/)
John 3:17
Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: DaveKanofsky] #1124758
12/01/11 10:23 PM
12/01/11 10:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,035
Missouri U.S.A.
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71yelladustr Offline
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71yelladustr  Offline
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Missouri U.S.A.
You need to check your spark a little better. I have had several instances where the coil is not putting out enough fire for it to run, but still firing very weak. Take the coil wire off of the distributor and put a screw driver tip in the wire and hold it about a half inch from ground while someone cranks it over. Make sure The screwdriver has a well insulated handle amd keep your hand on it! You should see a nice crisp spark fromthe screwdriver to ground. Check the plug wires individually also to confirm fire to plugs.


392 gen III hemi on E-85 727 trans Dana 60
10.02@134
Re: Please help diagnose my Durango [Re: DaveKanofsky] #1124759
12/01/11 10:27 PM
12/01/11 10:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
3
383man Offline
Too Many Posts
383man  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
Check the coolant sensor real close. It has much control over fuel mixture when the eng is cold in open loop. They go into closed loop very fast with the heated 02 sensors. It could have fuel pressure but if the coolant senser is giving the wrong temp it could be not enough fuel or way to much as I have seen both. Ron

Last edited by 383man; 12/01/11 10:27 PM.






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