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440 Small Block Report Cards
#1104139
10/30/11 11:55 AM
10/30/11 11:55 AM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,003
Salem
Grizzly
OP
Moparts Proctologist
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OP
Moparts Proctologist
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,003
Salem
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For those who have their 440 small blocks up and running, can you give us your opinion on how they are working so far? Mainly wondering about the 4.25" crank combos as the Siamese block is out of my price range. Street or strip usage? RPM range? Heads able to supply the displacement? Does this car belong to anyone on the Board? Thanks.
Mo' Farts
Moderated by "tbagger".
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Re: 440 Small Block Report Cards
[Re: Grizzly]
#1104140
10/30/11 01:02 PM
10/30/11 01:02 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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just about any i've ever seen were under achievers unless topped with w-8 or w-9 heads. heads like the RHS, Edelbrock, W-2, W-5, Indy 360-1 are just too small to take advantage of the extra cubes IMO.
also, unless you have a good X block, 340 resto or R-3, your living on borrowed timed.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: 440 Small Block Report Cards
[Re: Performance Only]
#1104141
10/30/11 02:04 PM
10/30/11 02:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
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Most of these engines are small bore tall stroke. A head with only a 4.060 bore can only do so much. The W7-9 heads will not work well on these small bores either.
I personally feel the strokers are great for making power without turning high RPM. Stock or mild performance heads are really going to struggle over 7,000 RPM trying to provide air for 440 inches of displacement. It sounds good but not really a huge power provider. I think the blocks can take it realizing the engine is not making the same power on each power stroke. It is making more due to the longer stroke. The power band moves down in RPM saving on valve train abuse. But, the longer stroke means more piston and ring speed for the same RPM.
Comparing a stroker 440 inch small block to a 340. Spin the 340 8,500 and make 600 HP. Spin the 440 6,500 and make the same power. The difference in the valve train is obvious. The 440 will have a 76ft per second average piston speed @6,500. The 340 will have a 78 ft per second average piston speed @ 8500. The speed varies by rod ratio which is terrible in a stroker due to the limiting deck height. This effects speed in the center of the stroke vs the top and bottom. The longer the rod the slower the travel is at the top and bottom of the stroke but the speed is made up in the middle.
All this is fine as long as my math was right. Pretty sure it is stroke X 2 X RPM dividing by 12 to convert to feet and 60 for seconds. Never thought about this equation until I started buzzing a few RPM's.
Leon
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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Re: 440 Small Block Report Cards
[Re: Grizzly]
#1104144
10/30/11 03:34 PM
10/30/11 03:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,407
Ambridge, Pa.
rickraw
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top fuel
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,407
Ambridge, Pa.
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redid mine last year. r3 block, 4.185 bore, 4" stroke. 11-1 comp, pump gas, w9's by ryan- 272 intake runner, intake-0.359.6@0.700, exhaust-0.255.5@0.700, m1 intake, prosystems 1050 dom. buzz it at 6000. mostly street driven. see's the strip about 4 times a summer. best et-9.61@137.91. i haven't had any problems with this power plant. turn key, warmup alittle & drive anywhere. stay safe, seeya.
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Re: 440 Small Block Report Cards
[Re: Grizzly]
#1104146
10/30/11 03:56 PM
10/30/11 03:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,600
Alberta Canada
StrokerAspen
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Alberta Canada
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I guess I have kind of the odd combo for a 4.25" stroke small block. It's a little bigger than 440ci. With a 4.185" bore it is 468ci. The odd part of the combo is the top end, or lack there of  It is topped with a set of Econo W2's from Brian. They aren't meant for this many cubes that's for sure! But it works ok for now. The engine has a peak torque @ 6100rpm, and peak HP @6300 rpm. It carries that power right to 7000rpm though. First time out with it, it went 10.68 @ 128mph. The diff is a bone stock 3.23 posi in an 8-3/4. That will change this winter. Before the R3 short block, I had a similar combo with a 4.03" bore in a 318 block. It was a 434ci. and it worked well too. Less bore, compression, and cam. It went 11.05 @ 124 mph, same car, full exhaust.
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Re: 440 Small Block Report Cards
[Re: StrokerAspen]
#1104147
10/30/11 04:10 PM
10/30/11 04:10 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
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Joined: Jul 2010
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i think you guys are proving my point for me. the 4.0" stroke combos with good heads make plenty of power. where as the 4.250 stroke Kenny runs is way down on power comparatively speaking because of mainly the lack of cylinder head. (Kenny, not knocking your car here, it runs good for what it is) granted he races in thin air too, but that's not enough to make up that 1 second 1/4 mile differential from the guys posting before him.
it's pretty common knowledge that big bore and good heads will make good power. take away either one and your at a disadvantage. added bore size will always make more power than the same amount of added stroke. stroke will add torque and lower the operating range of the engine.
now, add stroke and bore and enough cylinder head to feed it and you've got a winner. unfortunately in the smallblock Mopar world that's where it gets expensive and hard to do since there just isn't much in the way of heads that'll support 440+ cubes.
Last edited by Performance Only; 10/30/11 04:11 PM.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: 440 Small Block Report Cards
[Re: Performance Only]
#1104148
10/30/11 04:39 PM
10/30/11 04:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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If 906 heads are good enough for a BB 440 why aren't X heads good enough for a SB 440? There are plenty of SB heads that can keep up with a BB head and people would not hessitate to run BBs at that many cubes or more (think RHS VS Stealth). I think weather or not it is enough head is determined by how many RPM you want, if you just want a 440 SB to turn 6000 then there is plenty of head options. If you want your 440 SB to turn as many RPM as a 340 then you've got to spend some $$$ on heads. Lastly that Aspen is not gonna run fast till it goes on a diet and gets some gear in the rear. It is heavy and too high geared for optimum ETs. I bet the combination of a 3.92 gear a couple hundred pounds and some good air he could easily shave 1 second off his times and not have to spin the snot out of it 
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: 440 Small Block Report Cards
[Re: HotRodDave]
#1104150
10/30/11 04:55 PM
10/30/11 04:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
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Delray beach, Florida
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Quote:
If 906 heads are good enough for a BB 440 why aren't X heads good enough for a SB 440?
There are plenty of SB heads that can keep up with a BB head and people would not hessitate to run BBs at that many cubes or more (think RHS VS Stealth). I think weather or not it is enough head is determined by how many RPM you want, if you just want a 440 SB to turn 6000 then there is plenty of head options. If you want your 440 SB to turn as many RPM as a 340 then you've got to spend some $$$ on heads.
Lastly that Aspen is not gonna run fast till it goes on a diet and gets some gear in the rear. It is heavy and too high geared for optimum ETs. I bet the combination of a 3.92 gear a couple hundred pounds and some good air he could easily shave 1 second off his times and not have to spin the snot out of it
Dave, i disagree. rhs head don't flow what stealth or eddy heads flow, plus they have a smaller cross section. aside from that, add some cubes to the big block and those same heads become too small in a hurry. sure, those combo's run good, but they're limited by flow just as the 440 inch smallblock is.
Kenny's aspen runs good for what it is, but it'll need more than a diet and gears to gain the MPH the other guys are running with less stroke and better heads.
now if your saying a 440" small block willl run with X heads, sure it will, it just won't be very fast.
how many smallblock heads willl keep up with the better BB heads? think 440-1 or max-wedge EZ heads...
same rule applies. build the BB and start adding bore size and better heads. what happens?
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: 440 Small Block Report Cards
[Re: Performance Only]
#1104152
10/30/11 06:06 PM
10/30/11 06:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,003
Salem
Grizzly
OP
Moparts Proctologist
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OP
Moparts Proctologist
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Posts: 6,003
Salem
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W5Duster436:
Those torque numbers in the link you provided is something I could really handle. For a street/strip application I'm planning a wide-ratio four speed (geez, like 2500rpm between shifts) and the 4.25 stroke should fill the gap.
Mo' Farts
Moderated by "tbagger".
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Re: 440 Small Block Report Cards
[Re: Grizzly]
#1104154
10/30/11 06:52 PM
10/30/11 06:52 PM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,496
Sask, Can.
72demon416
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,496
Sask, Can.
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Quote:
For those who have their 440 small blocks up and running, can you give us your opinion on how they are working so far?
Does this car belong to anyone on the Board?
Thanks.
That ride in your link is my car Griz, it is a 4" stroke 440 using small chamber ported W5's- here is the link to the build if your interestedhttps://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/remlinker.php?Cat=0&Entry=277531&F_Board=Racer&Thread=6150507&Main=6147038
What you see in the video is my first run on the road with my 1050 dom and modified indy 360-3 intake and is completely untuned (and still is  ) and not really indicitive of it's full potential. I suppose it's a under achiever in a sense with it's low compression (10.6) but should still be in that 680-700 hp area with the different intake and the addition of a vacuum pump. Either way it's a street car and runs well.
Unlike my previous 416 with W2's this 440 makes way more torque at low(er) rpms, it's hard to decide without a time slip whether to shift early and let the torque work or let it rev as it pulls equally hard throughout the rpm range. I could shift it earlier but it revs quickly and eagerly- so... I let it buck  
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Re: 440 Small Block Report Cards
[Re: Performance Only]
#1104155
10/30/11 09:05 PM
10/30/11 09:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,600
Alberta Canada
StrokerAspen
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Posts: 1,600
Alberta Canada
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Dan, your right my engine is down on power from where it could be with this W2 top end. That being said, adding cubes to it made a fair amount more power on the dyno over the 4.03" bore combo. Elevation will play a big part in what the car is going to do... More so than most think racing much closer to sea level. I have only had this combo out twice so far, and on the 10.68 run we had the best air (about 5000ft). The car was too cold, and there wasn't much fuel in the car, as I forgot to dump some in, so I didn't warm it up much in the staging lanes. The car bogged out of the hole. I think it's safe to say there was a 10.5X out of it if it had heat in it and it didn't bog out of the hole. (it 60'ed .06 slower alone) One other thing to consider with the MPH of 128, the engine was spinning 6500rpm at the finish line. 27" tall tire + 3.23 gears + 6500rpm @ 128mph = HOLY CONVERTER SLIP BATMAN!! also, high gear is half gone. When I shifted from 2-3 I would shift at 7000, it would spin up to 7500 then drop back to 6500rpm. So, there is another issue I get to fix this winter. I hate automatics. At the end of the day, when you look at my over all combo, you can tell the W2's are a temporary top end. But for next year, I will be running them again, with a healthy automatic and a better rear end. Maybe we can get a better idea of what it can run with a better combo behind the engine. -Kenny
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Re: 440 Small Block Report Cards
[Re: StrokerAspen]
#1104156
10/30/11 09:20 PM
10/30/11 09:20 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
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Quote:
Dan, your right my engine is down on power from where it could be with this W2 top end. That being said, adding cubes to it made a fair amount more power on the dyno over the 4.03" bore combo.
Elevation will play a big part in what the car is going to do... More so than most think racing much closer to sea level. I have only had this combo out twice so far, and on the 10.68 run we had the best air (about 5000ft). The car was too cold, and there wasn't much fuel in the car, as I forgot to dump some in, so I didn't warm it up much in the staging lanes. The car bogged out of the hole. I think it's safe to say there was a 10.5X out of it if it had heat in it and it didn't bog out of the hole. (it 60'ed .06 slower alone)
One other thing to consider with the MPH of 128, the engine was spinning 6500rpm at the finish line. 27" tall tire + 3.23 gears + 6500rpm @ 128mph = HOLY CONVERTER SLIP BATMAN!! also, high gear is half gone. When I shifted from 2-3 I would shift at 7000, it would spin up to 7500 then drop back to 6500rpm. So, there is another issue I get to fix this winter. I hate automatics.
At the end of the day, when you look at my over all combo, you can tell the W2's are a temporary top end. But for next year, I will be running them again, with a healthy automatic and a better rear end. Maybe we can get a better idea of what it can run with a better combo behind the engine.
-Kenny
that larger bore is mostly where that gain came. i have a number of customers that race at high altitude so i know a little bit about what it does to the power. you've certainly got some issues to sort out, but when you do you should start seeing some low 10's pretty easily. 
Last edited by Performance Only; 10/30/11 09:20 PM.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: 440 Small Block Report Cards
[Re: Performance Only]
#1104157
10/30/11 09:55 PM
10/30/11 09:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,600
Alberta Canada
StrokerAspen
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Alberta Canada
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Once I get it sorted out, I will probably change everything again maybe I can make it over to Mission BC next year sometime. 300ft off sea level would be awesome. -Kenny
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