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Re: 440 horsepower limits
[Re: jim sciortino]
#1096663
10/18/11 12:30 AM
10/18/11 12:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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I am running a 4.15 crank from 440source with dished pistons in a 440 block. It has 10.6 comp with the Indy EZ heads I use. I went with steel main caps and ARP main studs. Its a street car and I have raced it twice so far with no problems at all. I use a Dwayne Porter speced solid flat tappet cam with 264 and 270 @ .050 and .630 lift with 1.6 rockers. But it is holding up fine so far and I have twisted it to about 6500 max. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 10/19/11 04:13 AM.
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Re: 440 horsepower limits
[Re: viperblue72]
#1096668
10/19/11 01:39 PM
10/19/11 01:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,218
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,218
Bend,OR USA
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If I was you and know what I know now I would build the 400 with a 4.25 stroke with BB chevy rod sizes, use the longest rod length your comfortable with  I have one low deck 400 block with 4.300 stroke Chinese crank, pump gas motor that is in the car now tat has 6.8 long CAT H beam Chevy rods in it. I have since built another 400 block with a 4.25 stroke Ohoi Crankshaft Company Hemi crank cut down to fit the low deck mains, Chevy rods cut the counter balancers too clear the block. It has 6.7 long RPM rods in it, I have not ran or dynoed that motor yet so on numbers on it. The pump gas motor made 718 HP and 744 ft. lbs on Oregon pump gas several years ago with a set of Eddy RPM CNC heads done by MCH and a low deck six pak, the new motor will make more with the same Eddy heads and more compression for E85 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 horsepower limits
[Re: viperblue72]
#1096672
10/19/11 07:28 PM
10/19/11 07:28 PM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
smokinwoody
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,339
somwhere
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when we threw a rod in our 440 that was 40 over or 448", I bought a complete kit that included: Eagle 4.15 crank, Eagle H beams, bearings and rings and JE flat top pistons 55 over for a 499" point something.. the entire rotating assembly was balanced..the block had another sleeve pressed in..lifter bores were bushed..block machined for square and decked to 10.700.. we used the stock caps and line honed them along with cam journals..also machined for Jessel cam belt drive.. I am using CRE's stud girdle kit.. the heads are well massaged Bulldogs with Erson 1.6 roller rockers and shafts..the intake is an Indy 440-3X and the carb is a Holley HP 4500, 1050 CFM which is too small making the engine run rich..the cam is top secret but is a big roller cam..engine builders are so secretive about this and I got my rear chewed when I let out some of it.. on the dyno in a very rich state it made 758hp @7500 and was still peaking so we shut it down...the torque was real close to 700lbs ft.. so how much can a 440, RB block take?...a lot we retuned the engine giving it another 100hp and still rich.. so it maybe margin-able to most.. BCR made a stud girdle that included some real robust caps...he was selling the complete kit for $850 and I should have bought one for future use..I'm planning on tearing my engine down in the near future to see how the caps are..I may change them and go to the hottest Hydraulic cam I can have cut for the street..should still be in the 800hp range.. thats my take  
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Re: 440 horsepower limits
[Re: bcrproducts]
#1096674
10/19/11 10:03 PM
10/19/11 10:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
smokinwoody
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
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Quote:
It was $799 for the caps and Girdle just to clarify.
and can I still get these from you??
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Re: 440 horsepower limits
[Re: bcrproducts]
#1096675
10/19/11 10:14 PM
10/19/11 10:14 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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Quote:
It was $799 for the caps and Girdle just to clarify.
That is what they were when I bought them.
The price included all the hardware. ARP main stud kit, cap to girdle stud kit, girdle oil pan rail stud kit. When I say "kit" it includes all the washers and nuts too. The oil pan rail has two nuts, one to hold the girdle to the block and a set to hold the oil pan to the girdle.
Pic of them on the 400 block (one stud out on the #2 main as I was fitting the oil pickup at the time):
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Re: 440 horsepower limits
[Re: viperblue72]
#1096676
10/19/11 10:44 PM
10/19/11 10:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,218
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,218
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
Cab, how good is the quality of the cat,rpm,ohio crank connecting rods?
I haven't used or ran the Ohio Crankshaft rods so I'm not sure. I have used Manley,CAT, RPM, Eagle, Carillo and Oliver steel billet rods and some BME aluminums. I bought and used the Manleys before trying the CAT and RPM brand in my own motors, I don't like recommending or using unknown parts in customer motors so I try to use them first. When I bought the RPM I ordered CAT and the wharehouse subsistuted them with RPM  According to them (the wharehouse)the CAT, RPM, SCAT and Eagle all come out of the same factory in China, I thought CAT came form mainland China and Eagle, RPM and SCATs came form Taiwan, they said ansolutely not   I did have one set ot the CAT, RPM 7.1 long H beal rods have issues with going out of round when the customer detonated the motor with pump gas and to much timing climbing a grade in the summer time I've been trying to get them back so I can have the heat treat checked and see for myself how much out of round they are now, no luck getting them back so far I'm still working on it 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 horsepower limits
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1096677
10/19/11 10:46 PM
10/19/11 10:46 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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Quote:
I have one low deck 400 block with 4.300 stroke Chinese crank, pump gas motor that is in the car now tat has 6.8 long CAT H beam Chevy rods in it.
Cab, more info on this combination
Looks like you would need a 1.030" compression height piston?, and compression might be in the mid to high 11's with flat top piston (with valve reliefs) and a 84cc head?
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Re: 440 horsepower limits
[Re: 451Mopar]
#1096678
10/19/11 11:52 PM
10/19/11 11:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,218
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,218
Bend,OR USA
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The pistons are a set of Ross custom for the motor, they have a 22 CC dish and originally where set at -.025 deck hieght, not to the center of the dish  . The motor started off as a 4.25 stroke with a set of 84.0 CC ported 906 iron heads and 9.25 to 1 compresion ratio, it is now 10.8 to 1 with s set of indy SR with 76.0 CC and a .042 Cometic gasket. The 4.3 stroke crank ended up raising the piston edges right at zero deck hieght when centered in the bores, they do rock up a little so the edges will measure as high as .007 above the decks  If I had to do it over I would use a custom reverse dome piston to get some quench instead of using the full dish pistons like I did,  Hindsight is always better than forsight when doing new builds,especially when no one else has done that 
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 horsepower limits
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1096679
10/20/11 02:08 AM
10/20/11 02:08 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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Ross did my 451 pistons the same way. I asked for 11cc reverse dome (dish) pistons and they were fully dished?
I used the 4.15" crank in the new 500" 400 block because it uses the longer rods and pretty much drops in with no bore notches needed, just a bit off the oil pickup boss. The piston pin just goes through the lower oil ring land (1.122 compression height.) I also originally planned to spin the engine pretty hard (7,000+ RPM), and I liked the 12.4:1 compression ratio with the flat top pistons and 75cc Victor heads.
The 4.25" stroke, 6.535" rod stroker kit (I'm too cheap to go with custom pistons) is heaver and the piston forces (speed and acceleration) are higher.
One issue for me was to take some stress off the stock block.
I do like the 4.25" stroker kit for hot street type builds that only spin about 6,500 RPM max.
With 84cc RPM type heads, The Flat top pistons end up around 11.7:1 compression which is likely too high for most "street" pump gas combinations, and sort of low for a bracket engine build, but the 75cc Victors would make about 12.8:1 which would work good in a bracket car.
The 440 source / ICON pistons "Dish" piston is 24cc. This drops compression down to 9.88:1 with 84cc heads which would make almost any combination able to run on pump gas.
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Re: 440 horsepower limits
[Re: 451Mopar]
#1096680
10/20/11 10:09 AM
10/20/11 10:09 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,279
bcrproducts
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
Quote:
It was $799 for the caps and Girdle just to clarify.
That is what they were when I bought them.
The price included all the hardware. ARP main stud kit, cap to girdle stud kit, girdle oil pan rail stud kit. When I say "kit" it includes all the washers and nuts too. The oil pan rail has two nuts, one to hold the girdle to the block and a set to hold the oil pan to the girdle.
Pic of them on the 400 block (one stud out on the #2 main as I was fitting the oil pickup at the time):
I am working on a replacement machinist to take this over again as the last machine shop failed me. I will be a little more proactive on my next choice.
Greg
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Re: 440 horsepower limits
[Re: bcrproducts]
#1096681
10/20/11 10:38 AM
10/20/11 10:38 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
smokinwoody
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It was $799 for the caps and Girdle just to clarify.
That is what they were when I bought them.
The price included all the hardware. ARP main stud kit, cap to girdle stud kit, girdle oil pan rail stud kit. When I say "kit" it includes all the washers and nuts too. The oil pan rail has two nuts, one to hold the girdle to the block and a set to hold the oil pan to the girdle.
Pic of them on the 400 block (one stud out on the #2 main as I was fitting the oil pickup at the time):
I am working on a replacement machinist to take this over again as the last machine shop failed me. I will be a little more proactive on my next choice.
Greg
thank you Greg and please do it soon...I'll be needing a set in a few months or less..
Jeff
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Re: 440 horsepower limits
[Re: viperblue72]
#1096684
10/20/11 11:57 AM
10/20/11 11:57 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,339
somwhere
smokinwoody
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,339
somwhere
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Quote:
I have heard from a lot of peeps here who have broke caps on the low deck. The bcr caps and girdle are very nice looking pieces, but that price would push me a lot closer to just getting an aftermarket block, which is out of my price range. I am honestly just trying to figure out the best bang for buck. Honestly I could probably meet my goals with a 451, but then I feel the victor max wedge ports are a little large for a nice power curve with that size of motor. I do want a 6500 power peak with a 451 or 470. But then the stroker kit prices are tempting for the 440s but id still rather build a low deck.
if you dont have the 3 grand or so for an aftermarket block...$800 to beef up the stock block isnt so bad...
like fastmOp says..he never had a problem with stock caps and block...mine has no problems..but..after seeing the BCR setup, I want one for the power levels I make...just added comfort...
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