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Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: J_BODY] #1066332
09/06/11 09:27 AM
09/06/11 09:27 AM
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chatham, Ilinois
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fox Offline
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As I understand it Dodge supplied the lift pump. and this was against Bosches wishes as far as quality goes.

And my point is missed or distorted on the pressure issue.

We are not talking about any system other than the fuel system on the 98.5 to 2002 dodge/cummins.
If the system is left intack/ unmodified workings, if the pressure drops, so does voluume. No if and or buts here.
customers were installing fuel pressure guages and finding below spec bosch standards, and wanting to protect thier expensive injection pumps by asking for replacement of the lift pump.

dodge got tired of changing out weak lift pumps , then started telling customers it was volume that is important. YES THEY WERE RIGHT!!!
But if Bosch says 8-10 PSI is needed to get that volume, that is thier specs on it.
Some dealers tried to tell customers that they could have the needed volume with ZERO pressure!!!

IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

Also, the spec was including enough VOLUME to lube and cool the pump, not just supply the fuel required to make HP.

Last edited by fox; 09/06/11 09:30 AM.
Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: fox] #1066333
09/06/11 11:13 PM
09/06/11 11:13 PM
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Newport, Mi
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I wonder if the being able to get the proper volume (with no pressure) might have been a little mis-understood. If the line from the pump was open to run the volume test, as in aiming the line into a container to measure the volume, the pressure gauge would probably read zero, since the line shouldnt be a restriction. You could have your volume with no "indicated" pressure. I would rather see a sized restriction put onto the end of the line and you need "X" volume in a given time and still hold a minimum pressure, say 10PSI.


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Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: Evil Spirit] #1066334
09/07/11 08:39 AM
09/07/11 08:39 AM
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chatham, Ilinois
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Once again, you are not dealing with an apples to apples comparison!!
You just described an open system, not closed like bosch specs. ( on a diesel, you don't open a fuel line unless absolutely neccessary)
This is why pressure is the spec!!

Try this if you don't understand.
Do try to fill your swimming pool with the garden hose. Rather that walk to the pool, cut a slit in the hose at the valve to check volume. What happens? The system is open and pressure drops. You cannot check a pumps capacity without a pressure and volume spec!!!

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: Evil Spirit] #1066335
09/07/11 08:44 AM
09/07/11 08:44 AM
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chatham, Ilinois
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Quote:

Dodge knows that an engines fuel requirements are "volume" related and pressure is only a tool to get that volume. An engines fuel requirement is measured in B.S.F.C., or Brake Specific Fuel Consumption, which ballpark is about .5lbs of fuel per HP per hour. The engine could care less if the fuel is delivered at 10 or 10,000PSI; it wants 200LBS of fuel (about 30 gallons) to make 400HP per hour.

Asking for a certain volume takes all the guesswork out of the equasion. If the line supplying the injector pump can fill a gallon container in a minute, you have enough fuel to make roughly 780HP, or about 620HP running at the 80% duty factor a lot of fuel systems are set up at. By Dodge asking for a certain volume it takes all the custom or modified fuel system arguements out of the equasion. If a stock and unmodified fuel system doesn't meet that volume spec - that is a Dodge issue. If the retrofit Widget Industries lift pump plumbed in with Home Depot fittings only flows a pint of fuel a minute @ 15PSI - not Dodges problem.
again my point - pressure is a tool to obtain volume, not an accurate indicator of volume.



Bosch didn't spec the volume!! Because it is tougher to do in a closed system. So, they use thier calculations and used pressure.

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: fox] #1066336
09/07/11 10:20 AM
09/07/11 10:20 AM
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Newport, Mi
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I said : "I would rather see a sized restriction put onto the end of the line and you need "X" volume in a given time and still hold a minimum pressure, say 10PSI."

You said: "You cannot check a pumps capacity without a pressure and volume spec!!!"

I'm not sure why you can't see I just said the same thing - it takes pressure and volume to figure capacity. I was questioning how some people are getting their results, not how the results are figured.

You said : ( on a diesel, you don't open a fuel line unless absolutely neccessary)

Yep, agreed. but how else do you verify actual fuel delivery, a Magic 8 ball? Well, first, how do you install an accurate gauge system without opening lines? Then the only accurate way I know to verify fuel flow to the injector pump is to remove the line from the lift pump and test it there. I'm not looking at Bosches test, but if it doesn't require both a pressure and volume minimum, it's worthless. If it does - GOOD FOR THEM, My point has always been a simple pressure test may be flawed due to a damaged (pinched) line, or operator installed incorrect fittings.

You said : "Bosch didn't spec the volume!! Because it is tougher to do in a closed system. So, they use thier calculations and used pressure."

That may be fine, but why not just do an accurate test and see how much fuel is actually being delivered.

And I'm only talking about this, since you brought it up : "Do try to fill your swimming pool with the garden hose. Rather that walk to the pool, cut a slit in the hose at the valve to check volume. What happens? The system is open and pressure drops." No argument there. Go a step further - take a 100' hose, run water through it with the end open. Take pressure measurements along the length of the hose. I bet they are higher at the supply end and gradually get lower as you get to the open end.

Another point - if Dodge and Bosch was so flippin smart - why didn't they put the lift pump in the rear of the truck, where it would be more effecient and not have engine heat?

At this point we're just snipe hunting and beating it to death. Anybody that doesn't understand the concept of needing more than just a pressure reading to accurately measure total flow, read a book. And that's just a general statement; not directed at any one person.

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: fox] #1066337
09/07/11 01:24 PM
09/07/11 01:24 PM
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Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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Quote:

We are not talking about any system other than the fuel system on the 98.5 to 2002 dodge/cummins.
If the system is left intack/ unmodified workings, if the pressure drops, so does voluume. No if and or buts here.
But if Bosch says 8-10 PSI is needed to get that volume, that is thier specs on it.





Correct; in the context of this discussion/issue, the pressure can be used to determine if the lift pump is adequate or not.

Dave


1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: DPelletier] #1066338
09/07/11 03:13 PM
09/07/11 03:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,699
Newport, Mi
Evil Spirit Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

We are not talking about any system other than the fuel system on the 98.5 to 2002 dodge/cummins.
If the system is left intack/ unmodified workings, if the pressure drops, so does voluume. No if and or buts here.
But if Bosch says 8-10 PSI is needed to get that volume, that is thier specs on it.





Correct; in the context of this discussion/issue, the pressure can be used to determine if the lift pump is adequate or not.

Dave




On an unmodified fuel system, I'd agree with that. You can see if the lift pump meets the specs of the people (Dodge and Bosch) who designed the system that has such a high failure rate and can't agree on how to test it; pressure VS volume.

The original poster has a modified system, which appears to have low fuel pressure. At this point is the fuel pressure low enough to cause a problem? A solid probably. Best way to fix it? My suggestion would be to use the FASS pump with the relocator kit to put it on the frame rail. I would return the tank to stock condition. I would make sure that the connections that were made where the factory lift pump was originally are correct and not restricting flow. Lastly, I would try to take my pressure readings at the inlet to the injector pump if at all possible, since that takes all the restrictions in the supply system out of the picture. This may not be possible, due to the possibility of the injector pump creating a pulsation while it draws in the fuel.

My appologies to the O/P for getting off track and getting caught up discussing theory.


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