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Wow! A while back, I was actually considering buying a pair of Source heads for when I build the 440 for my Charger. But after more and more horror stories, Ill have my 906s redone! At least they were made in America

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How come the one to the right looks fine and the two broken ones are mangled? I'd figure that the one to the right would be showing some signs of abuse even if it isn't busted off? All valve springs and keepers are the same (or should be).

Tight valve clearances cause the valve to stick and then the piston hits the valve and bends it. Never heard of a sticky valve causing the top of a guide to shear clean off like that.

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Classic retainer to guide clearance or over rev causing valve float.
Look how it smashed the valve seal down over the guide

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Look AGAIN , the pieces are flipped over, the part that is pointing up is where it broke off the rest of the guide. Look at the unbroken guide next to it , not a mark on it ...





edit ... I see others brought this up also ...

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Just to play devils advocate here... Didn't the edelbrock rpm heads have the same problems?

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And if you don't check retainer to guide clearance, lifter pre-load on a juice cam or don't know enough to look at the tach, your American made 906's can look like that too.

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How come the one to the right looks fine and the two broken ones are mangled? I'd figure that the one to the right would be showing some signs of abuse even if it isn't busted off? All valve springs and keepers are the same (or should be).

Tight valve clearances cause the valve to stick and then the piston hits the valve and bends it. Never heard of a sticky valve causing the top of a guide to shear clean off like that.

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If he didn't check guide clearance he not likely checked installed height either. If the spring pressures are different valve to valve, some will float before others which could explain this carnage. A simple disassemble and inspect which should be done to ANY parts before use could have prevented this.

Kevin

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And if you don't check retainer to guide clearance, lifter pre-load on a juice cam or don't know enough to look at the tach, your American made 906's can look like that too.

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Quite true, but there aren't multiple posts even here on Moparts that bash factory, MP or Edelbrock heads like they do with the Source heads. All I see is people badmouthing them. Sure, there are some out there that came from a "good" batch, but I'm not too keen on spending a grand on a pair of CHINESE heads, only to have to dump another $500-1000 into them to repair flaws. They are nice because they look close to a stock head when painted, but to pull them out of the box and have to repair cracks, pinholes, retainers/locks......no thanks

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What do you mean there are multiple posts bashing these head? There are thousands of posts with nothing but love for CCJ and the messiah of mopar big block strokers , those that bash or question get kicked and ridiculed by the throngs of followers ...

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And if you don't check retainer to guide clearance, lifter pre-load on a juice cam or don't know enough to look at the tach, your American made 906's can look like that too.

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Quite true, but there aren't multiple posts even here on Moparts that bash factory, MP or Edelbrock heads like they do with the Source heads. All I see is people badmouthing them. Sure, there are some out there that came from a "good" batch, but I'm not too keen on spending a grand on a pair of CHINESE heads, only to have to dump another $500-1000 into them to repair flaws. They are nice because they look close to a stock head when painted, but to pull them out of the box and have to repair cracks, pinholes, retainers/locks......no thanks

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Anyone thinks that's something other than a clearance issue is whacked or has an agenda.

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How come the one to the right looks fine and the two broken ones are mangled? I'd figure that the one to the right would be showing some signs of abuse even if it isn't busted off? All valve springs and keepers are the same (or should be).

Tight valve clearances cause the valve to stick and then the piston hits the valve and bends it. Never heard of a sticky valve causing the top of a guide to shear clean off like that.

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If he didn't check guide clearance he not likely checked installed height either. If the spring pressures are different valve to valve, some will float before others which could explain this carnage. A simple disassemble and inspect which should be done to ANY parts before use could have prevented this.

Kevin

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varying installed height, varying guide height, coupled with maybe a few weaker springs could explain why only 4 were broken...

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FWIW -
One reason why there are these crazy 'satisfied' customers for the Stealth heads is automotive demographics. Guys that can't afford (or don't want/need) super-high RPM and HP, buy them and run them as-is. Small cams, lower RPM, stock rockers, etc. They don't push the envelope, so the corner-of-the-box problems don't happen to those guys.

As others have said, for demanding applications, things *must* be checked.

Now, back to teh diagnosis!

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With a slight proviso: Check them regardless of application. When my E-heads came in they went straight to my machinist for disassembly and the valve job was found wanting. Guides and installed height checked. It added $150 to my machine shop bill. Cheap insurance IMHO. Bet it cost more than that to fix the OP's mess.

Kevin

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ive never really seen tight guides though i ream them when i port them... out of the box they ream them from the port side up towards the valve top and sometimes there is a burr turned up above the guide which will restrict oil from getting in to lubricate teh valve/guide,,, ive told brandon about it and i believe he has fixed it with recent "batches" of heads

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My original question was, has anyone else had similar problems with these heads and have you used some standard replacement guides or some custom fabricated guides to fit the Source heads? I did not find any direct replacement guides for these heads from 440Source website. Maybe I will give them a call.

Three of the broken valve guides were intakes, one was exhaust

After all comments, the final diagnosis for the broken valve guides is still open?

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I was yesterday eveneing visting at my buddy's garage after he had found some metal particles from used oil when he had changed the motor oil. Found out that problem was caused by broken valve guides and pulled the heads up from the engine.

Find enclosed a picture from broken guides. There was 4 broken guides. Asked from my buddy had he checked the valve guide clearances before installation? Answer was no.

Has anyone else had similar problems with these heads and have you used some standard replacement guides or specially machined to fit the Source heads?

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Looking at your picture it almost looks like the wrong shims were used while setting your valve spring pressure. The guides are cut from the outside in. Every source head I have taken apart have single springs and locator cups.

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1.6 rockers are the problem, imo. Run 1.5 rockers and install the cam with the lift you want with 1.5 rockers. 1.6 rockers cause lot's of stress, you even said you tried to correct valve train geometry. You shouldn't have to.

Silly everyone's want's to run them. Mopars can't handle them as easy as like say a chevy.

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no need for the 1.6's and was there milling done to them? Was push rod length checked instead of a possible botched shim job. Mine were checked OOTB by my machinist and have been running all the stock gear that came with them with well over 5,000 hammered miles with no issues. There not toasted, put some new guides in use 1.5's and check push rod length and have him hammer it.

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Whow, this became a real HOT topic

To be a little more accurate with my words, the valve guide clearances were not measured with a dial indicator or any other measuring device. I apologize, for me checking means that a measuring device has been used.

So the actual reading was not checked, it was only estimated being enough by wiggling the valve from the head. That MIGHT have been the Achilles heel at this proven engine combo.

Here in surroundings area are a couple of 440 rebuilds with almost similar basic components, using 440 Source heads at look-alike-restored-cars . Edelbrock, Indy, Procomp etc heads that look like a brick have not been an alternative for those cars. Basicly so far there has not been any big unexpected issues with these heads. Changing the retainers, valve locks and at some cases also springs has saved from many headaches.


Here's some more facts from the motor (or fuel for the fire for all 440 Source bashers )

The 2 broken guides shown are flipped upside down, the top of the valve seals were not hammered off and then they slid down the guide.

Three of the broken valve guides were intakes, one exhaust.

- Valve springs in this combo are Comp dual valve springs, seat load 130 lbs @ 1.85 and 320 lbs at max lift of the valve. Valve springs were carefully shimmed like GomangoCuda noticed from the wear of spring pockets

- Retainers are Comp's chromemoly steel 10° Super Lock and guide clearance at max lift was checked, not close
- Roller rocker arms with 1.6 ratio
- Rocker arm geometry was corrected with .030 shims under the rocker shafts.
- Cam is not very radical, a hydraulic flat tappet Comp XE284H
- With 1.6 rockers, intake valve lift .541 and exhaust valve .544
- Lifters, Comp High Energy. Preload 3/4 turn, ~.040. With ½ turn they were noisy, a little more preload was added.
- Pushrods are 3/8" diameter. Therefore the picture shows some significant clearancing for the pushrods. Pushrods are .080” wall chromemoly steel tubing and they all are straight as an arrow, no bend rods.
- Motor was driven less than 1000 miles after a complete rebuild
- Valves have not hit pistons, at least no sign of it
- Over rev, more than possible knowing the driving habits of owner



About tight valve guides [Email]Jeff@MCH[/Email] wrote earlier here at Moparts https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6665484&Main=6663766

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ive never really seen tight guides though i ream them when i port them... out of the box they ream them from the port side up towards the valve top and sometimes there is a burr turned up above the guide which will restrict oil from getting in to lubricate teh valve/guide,,, ive told brandon about it and i believe he has fixed it with recent "batches" of heads

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My original question was, has anyone else had similar problems with these heads and have you used some standard replacement guides or some custom fabricated guides to fit the Source heads? I did not find any direct replacement guides for these heads from 440Source website. Maybe I will give them a call.

Three of the broken valve guides were intakes, one was exhaust

After all comments, the final diagnosis for the broken valve guides is still open?

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1.6 rockers are the problem, imo. Run 1.5 rockers and install the cam with the lift you want with 1.5 rockers. 1.6 rockers cause lot's of stress, you even said you tried to correct valve train geometry. You shouldn't have to.

Silly everyone's want's to run them. Mopars can't handle them as easy as like say a chevy.

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no need for the 1.6's and was there milling done to them? Was push rod length checked instead of a possible botched shim job. Mine were checked OOTB by my machinist and have been running all the stock gear that came with them with well over 5,000 hammered miles with no issues. There not toasted, put some new guides in use 1.5's and check push rod length and have him hammer it.

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Challenger 1
1.6 rockers were not the problem. The valve tip or the valve guide does not know if equal valve lift is generated by a high lift cam with 1.5 rockers or a cam with 1.6 rockers.

The dimension from center of the rocker arm shaft (fulcrum) to the center of the roller that touches the valve tip are the same. The change of rocker arm ratio from 1.5 to 1.6 is generated by moving the push rod adjusting screw closer to the center of rocker arm shaft (fulcrum) It's simple mechanism, dimension from the fulcrum to the tip of the valve is not altered.

Rocker arm shafts were shimmed .030 to slightly move the roller wipe pattern toward the exhaust side. The wipe pattern is precisely centered after the shafts were shimmed.


Ireland383
Milling was not done to the heads and the shims under the rocker shafts were only used for moving the roller wipe pattern on the top of the valve tip toward the exhaust side. Correct pushrod length was determined with adjustable pushrod after wipe pattern was adjusted and pushrods with correct length were custom fabricated.




I made a closer inspection of the heads at my garage and found out that the reason for the broken valve was not related to the manufacturer of the heads or their quality control or their suppliers craftsmanship.

It's been a summary of several issues, mainly due to usage and parts assembly.

1) Overrevving the engine especially when,

2) Valve floating

3) Inside diameter of inner valve spring has been too small. There has not been enough clearance between the inner spring and valve stem seal. Inner spring had contacted the valve stem seals, disturbing the function of the inner valve spring

4) Valve springs were shimmed to the desired 130lbs seat pressure after the initial break in of the cam was done, but my lbs rate inspection of the springs showed up that there was a couple of weak springs that have not been able to handle combination of high rev and fast ramp cam. The spring cups and the retainers of the broken valve guides showed some abnormal wear after a 1000 mile drive. One cam lobe there was also abnormal wear due to possible lifter bouncing, because of valve spring problem.

Most likely the spring problem has caused the valve stem wobble and inner springs have been hammering the valve guides broken.

Take a look of this video showing valve float in a running engine at high RPM, especially 2.42s ->. http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=_REQ1PUM0rY

In this case there is no reason to bash 440Source or their Stealth heads.

IMHO Stealth heads are a nice exception in the Mopar BB aluminium head markets. They look like (almost) the cast iron heads, they have better flow than any OEM stock Mopar BB heads. They are reasonably priced for an Average Joe, even if you change the locks and retainers. With their performance parts pricing 440 Source has made it possible for many average guys to buy stroker kits or aluminium heads. Thanks to Brandon & his team for that work

Now I will be and