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Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? #1032728
07/14/11 09:47 PM
07/14/11 09:47 PM
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St. John's Newfoundland
440newport Offline OP
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I'm at the point that I need a clutch for my 4 speed Mirada awap, but I'm still not decided on what type of clutch to get.

When I put the pedals in a couple of weeks ago I left the over center spring on because I thought I might go for the B&B, but I don't think I ever drove a car with one and I'm wondering how hard they are to release? 90% of the time I'm just going to be putting around town, so there will be a lot more stop and go driving than 6k power shifts.

What does everyone like? I also heard I can leave the over center spring in with a diaphragm if I rig up a clutch pedal stop so it doesn't stick to the floor?

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Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: 440newport] #1032729
07/14/11 11:48 PM
07/14/11 11:48 PM
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Milwaukee, WI
In_The_Pink Offline
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I used a Hays B&B clutch and PP between a 360/A-833 O.D. combo in both my '77 B-200 van and briefly in my '77 F-body wagon. No clutch pedal return spring in the van, but I did use the factory spring in the F-body (probably the same as in your J-body?) without issue. Worked fine in both with no real effort required.

Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: In_The_Pink] #1032730
07/15/11 12:47 AM
07/15/11 12:47 AM
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Mass
DAYCLONA Offline
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Mass
Borg/Beck 3 finger..........Kelvar disc

Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: DAYCLONA] #1032731
07/15/11 01:20 AM
07/15/11 01:20 AM
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Iowa State fan
kilroy Offline
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Diaphragms are for girls, use a three figured plate. Seriously they give me a better clutch feel.


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: 440newport] #1032732
07/15/11 01:31 AM
07/15/11 01:31 AM
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Posts: 1,708
S. Il. U.S.A.
5spdcuda Offline
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For serious racing I would be inclined to go with the B&B. For the way you indicate you intend to drive I would go with one of the better diaphragm clutches with the overcenter spring in place and a positive but adjustable stop on the clutch pedal. There's more than one way to construct a stop, but the way I do it is to weld a connecting nut to the pedal about 2-3 inches above the pad and use a 3/8 bolt with a jam nut to lock in the adjustment. Set the adjustment so that the head of the bolt hits the firewall when you have full disengagement, but no more. This will prevent overcentering of the diaphragm which is the most common cause of diaphragm clutches hanging up. The diaphragm spring in a diaphragm clutch is in effect just a large Belleville washer. With the overcenter spring in place pedal feel is very light, more like most modern cars. McLeod, Centerforce & Sachs all make good quality clutches of either design. You can probably buy the bolt, connecting nut and jam nut from your local hardware store for about two bucks or so. FWIW I shift at 6200 rpm with a Sachs 10.75 diaphragm without any problems and it is both smooth and has a good firm lockup.

Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: 5spdcuda] #1032733
07/15/11 12:03 PM
07/15/11 12:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
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Milwaukee, WI
In_The_Pink Offline
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Out of curiosity, what are you using for a floor hump? I would like to see some pics of the hump installed, too. :

Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: 5spdcuda] #1032734
07/15/11 01:58 PM
07/15/11 01:58 PM
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Niles , Ohio
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therocks Offline
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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Niles , Ohio
I ran McCleod B&B for probally 25 years.Went with Center Force dual friction last time.The pedal pressure is super light and it shifts just as good as the B&B did at 6700.Its been in for 6 years and no problems.Rocky


Chrysler Firepower
Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: In_The_Pink] #1032735
07/15/11 02:55 PM
07/15/11 02:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,587
St. John's Newfoundland
440newport Offline OP
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Quote:

Out of curiosity, what are you using for a floor hump? I would like to see some pics of the hump installed, too. :




The pedals and hump I have are out of a '77 Volare. At least that's what the seller told me. I don't have the hump secured to the floor yet, but it seems to fit perfectly. I'm not sure if I'm going to weld it or just use screws.

I figured the Volare pedals and bracket would be a bolt in, but when I tried it in the car the the "ears" on the end that bolt up to the column support bracket were about an inch too short. I had to swap the pedals and spring bracket over to the Mirada piece but it all fit fine.

The hole for the clutch pushrod is already in the firewall too, it just has a grommet in it.

Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: 440newport] #1032736
07/15/11 05:51 PM
07/15/11 05:51 PM
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Iowa State fan
kilroy Offline
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FYI, be careful a lot of diaphragm clutches will not work with the over-center spring. Test first with engine off!!!! Even without the over-center spring and a diaphragm the pedal will be light light.

I personally dont like diaphragm because I think the release in more a parabolic curve aspect. (nothing nothing nothing then release); where as a three fingered clutch (long, or BB) is more linear and feels the same through out the pedal.


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: kilroy] #1032737
07/15/11 06:13 PM
07/15/11 06:13 PM
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Posts: 1,436
Oklahoma City OK
Cudajon Offline
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There you go, for a driver use a diaphragm, for racing use B&B. Although the Centerforce works for racing too (I run one) you may have to play with the z bar and linkage to get it too work for racing. If I was building a cruiser I'd run a diaphragm with hydraulic throw out bearing. Really will make the installation and driving easier.

Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: kilroy] #1032738
07/15/11 10:14 PM
07/15/11 10:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,708
S. Il. U.S.A.
5spdcuda Offline
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You may have a point regarding the release, but I suspect it has more to do with the linkage ratios rather than the type of clutch. Both my every day driver Mustang and my 'Cuda have diaphragm clutches. The Mustang has a cable with an aftermarket quadrant and the 'Cuda uses the factory bell crank linkage. The 'Cuda is very smooth and progressive, the Mustang is smooth but engagement is a little abrupt as it nears the end of travel.

Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: 5spdcuda] #1032739
07/16/11 01:51 AM
07/16/11 01:51 AM
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Iowa State fan
kilroy Offline
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Quote:

You may have a point regarding the release, but I suspect it has more to do with the linkage ratios rather than the type of clutch. Both my every day driver Mustang and my 'Cuda have diaphragm clutches. The Mustang has a cable with an aftermarket quadrant and the 'Cuda uses the factory bell crank linkage. The 'Cuda is very smooth and progressive, the Mustang is smooth but engagement is a little abrupt as it nears the end of travel.




This is possible and ration WILL affect release rates but on my car I switched from diaphragm clutch to BB to solve my above mentioned rant. No change in ratio just PP and disk and I can control its release much more. Personal Pref, that all.


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: kilroy] #1032740
07/16/11 06:38 PM
07/16/11 06:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,587
St. John's Newfoundland
440newport Offline OP
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I'm still leaning towards getting a B&B but I'm still not really decided.

Also, is there any reason to go for the 10.95" vs 10.5" clutch? Engine is a fairly mild 360 making probably 340 hp I would guess, so I figure a 10.5 is "big enough" but is bigger better?

Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: 440newport] #1032741
07/17/11 11:01 AM
07/17/11 11:01 AM
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Iowa State fan
kilroy Offline
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kilroy  Offline
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Quote:

I'm still leaning towards getting a B&B but I'm still not really decided.

Also, is there any reason to go for the 10.95" vs 10.5" clutch? Engine is a fairly mild 360 making probably 340 hp I would guess, so I figure a 10.5 is "big enough" but is bigger better?




The 10.95 is kinda a monger child in the clutch world. But either would work fine, 10.5 is more available and yes it would work fine. Im running a 10.5 behind a hot Big block al-biet 2700lbs static and 800lbs throw outs. Bigger diameter equal better clamping force via leverage. If you want street manner AVOID the hockey puck disks. Very Very chattery.


1973 Charger, former SE, former auto

I'm not trying to be difficult, it comes naturally....
Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: kilroy] #1032742
07/17/11 12:56 PM
07/17/11 12:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11 Offline
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I'm running a centerforce dual friction in my 77 pickup. I modified the pivot point so the pedal travels further and have had no problems with going overcenter. I think I got lucky though as I never knew it was an issue.
I had a hays bb clutch that broke two of the three pivot arms and I had to start it in gear and shift without the clutch to get it home. Not a big deal out in the country, but I was in the big city when it happened I've concluded it was a cheap clutch, but the even cheaper Ram clutches I had used up to that point lasted better. Now my centerforce has been on four engines and is still going strong. (disclaimer: only one of the engines failed, I get bored easily)

Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: 440newport] #1032743
07/17/11 11:58 PM
07/17/11 11:58 PM
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Posts: 43,541
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart Offline
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Diaphram is a Chivvy thing, if you go that way you might not get pregnant...


The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.

JB Rhinehart, Realist

A-Body's RULE!
Re: Borg/beck or diaphragm clutch? [Re: Rhinodart] #1032744
07/18/11 09:08 PM
07/18/11 09:08 PM
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OF COURSE you use the 10.95" clutch. It is the higher-performance version of the 10.5" clutch, using the same flywheel. I vote for the Borg & Beck pressure plate because it has a more gradual engagement.
R.







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