|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: Cudafied]
#1023820
07/01/11 07:40 AM
07/01/11 07:40 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
Cudafied makes a good point. Don't build a house on a bad foundation. It will be much cheaper in the long run to go with a new aftermarket block. If you sell the 440 block you have, then figure the cost of machining, subtract that from about $5500 you will come up with the difference to move up to a KB block. That will make for a rock solid foundation. Subtract from that balance what it would cost to redo a stock rb that cracks, and the picture looks a lot better! With a KB or other block, go 4.500 bore and at least 4.25 stroke. Don't worry about being close to the limit on the bore of the block. You can get several rebuilds out of the 4.50 bore, and once it gets worn out to say 4.502, just order pistons for that bore size. I doubt you will exceed the life of a good block starting at 4.500.
If you go with a low deck, use aluminum rods and very light pistons with a 4.25 stroke 2.200 journal crank, your bob weight will be very light. If you need a crank, find one with center counter weights if you can. It will reduce internal stress a lot. If the heads haven't been ported, they will need the full treatment. A good set of rockers, like Jesel, are a must due to the springs you will be running. Most combos making 850+ hp will need a lot of cam. Somewhere around .750 intake lift or more, with about 280 to 284 intake duration, 284 to 290 exhaust duration set somewhere around 110 CL. The jesel rockers listed at 1.5 are actually 1.55, and I made over 850 hp with the Isky RR735 cam as an example of what works. If you have to start fresh with the valvetrain, do it right and get a high ratio intake rocker, like 1.7 or so. It allows you to pick a lot more lobes that will work. 2 1/8 x 32 x 4 inch headers are what I had, work well. A good oil pan is important for keeping crankcase windagedown, makes more power. Run a vacuum pump, set 10 to 12 inchs. Top it off with a dominater or injection on alky, and you are good to go.
Last edited by gregsdart; 07/01/11 07:51 AM.
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: gregsdart]
#1023821
07/01/11 08:08 AM
07/01/11 08:08 AM
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 101
NC
1967Valiant
member
|
member
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 101
NC
|
How much power were you putting to that stock block to make it crack? I just built a 512 based rb block with billet main caps with studs 10/1 with a street roller 600 lift and cnc ported stealth heads and 150 shot of nitrous you guys think im over board with stock block?  and forgot to add i have a stud girdle to
Last edited by 1967Valiant; 07/01/11 08:09 AM.
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: 1967Valiant]
#1023822
07/01/11 08:59 AM
07/01/11 08:59 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,528
Mansfield, Tx
Jacob Pitt
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,528
Mansfield, Tx
|
With a stock block(if your set on doing it that way) I would put some aluminum main caps w/studs and do a half fill to the block. Also use some aluminum rods to help keep the weight and punishment down on the mains. You could build a good 499", 512" high compression motor with those heads if they are ported and run easy mid to low 9's at that weight. My 499" has shelf Diamond domed pistons that are made for the RPM heads with EZ-1 cnc'd heads with a small .640 roller that runs 9.40's at 3300lbs footbraking. The combo isn't really optimized either because I don't have much tire under the car to use.
2013 NHRA D4 Stock Champ
#4 in the World IHRA Stock
2x IHRA Div.4 Stock Champ
14x Track Champ
All using a Ultimate Converter Concepts converter. Call Lenny today 704-892-6837
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: fishy340]
#1023824
07/01/11 10:59 AM
07/01/11 10:59 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,104
Wheels up, MO
nhramark
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,104
Wheels up, MO
|
I had the same result as Cudafied.......twice  . I was probably making something around 725 to 750 hp then. In 2003 I bucked up and bought a new Megablock, Callies crank, aluminum rods, and Wiseco pistons. (I already had 440-1 heads with Jesel rockers)I have many hundreds of runs on these parts and not one single failure yet. If I had just started with the good parts I would have avoided 2 engine failures, a lot of work, a lot of down time, and been WAY ahead. 
[image]http://s1126.photobucket.com/user/nhramark1/library/Racing[/image]
9.100 @ 150 mph
5.780 @ 120 mph
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: nhramark]
#1023825
07/01/11 11:03 AM
07/01/11 11:03 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
Quote:
I had the same result as Cudafied.......twice . I was probably making something around 725 to 750 hp then.
In 2003 I bucked up and bought a new Megablock, Callies crank, aluminum rods, and Wiseco pistons. (I already had 440-1 heads with Jesel rockers)I have many hundreds of runs on these parts and not one single failure yet.
If I had just started with the good parts I would have avoided 2 engine failures, a lot of work, a lot of down time, and been WAY ahead.
The best advice is personal experience.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: 1967Valiant]
#1023826
07/01/11 11:11 AM
07/01/11 11:11 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
|
Quote:
How much power were you putting to that stock block to make it crack?
I just built a 512 based rb block with billet main caps with studs 10/1 with a street roller 600 lift and cnc ported stealth heads and 150 shot of nitrous you guys think im over board with stock block? and forgot to add i have a stud girdle to
It was all good until you mentioned the 150 shot.
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: nhramark]
#1023827
07/01/11 11:14 AM
07/01/11 11:14 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
|
Quote:
I had the same result as Cudafied.......twice . I was probably making something around 725 to 750 hp then.
In 2003 I bucked up and bought a new Megablock, Callies crank, aluminum rods, and Wiseco pistons. (I already had 440-1 heads with Jesel rockers)I have many hundreds of runs on these parts and not one single failure yet.
If I had just started with the good parts I would have avoided 2 engine failures, a lot of work, a lot of down time, and been WAY ahead.
I know everyone likes to save a buck but your experienced shows that you don't save in the long run by using stock blocks. They weren't designed for over 600 HP and even with all of the aftermarket band-aids they will fail at some point.
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: nhramark]
#1023833
07/01/11 02:07 PM
07/01/11 02:07 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
|
personally i know 750 HP RB's aren't really time bombs like some people think if built and tuned properly. aluminum caps and studs, fairly light components, precision balancing etc. etc.
we've got plenty of them making that much HP and more for many years without any problems.
we typically freshen them every couple of years. use "good" quality parts, including the harmonic damper.
i've seen a number of broken blocks over the years and in almost every case the owners were E.T. chasers. constantly chasing the tune up to try and squezze every last 1/2 hp out of them but in the process caused way more harm than good getting into overly lean or rich carb conditions and detonation. that's very often the killer on those type combos IMO.
proper machine work, proper attention to assembly, clearances etc, good parts and a good tune or the keys to longevity for any engine, but even more so when you have a block that might otherwise be near the edge in the HP catagory.
machine shop owner and engine builder
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: Performance Only]
#1023834
07/01/11 02:26 PM
07/01/11 02:26 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
BobR
master
|
master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,165
Left Coast
|
Quote:
personally i know 750 HP RB's aren't really time bombs like some people think if built and tuned properly. aluminum caps and studs, fairly light components, precision balancing etc. etc.
we've got plenty of them making that much HP and more for many years without any problems.
we typically freshen them every couple of years. use "good" quality parts, including the harmonic damper.
i've seen a number of broken blocks over the years and in almost every case the owners were E.T. chasers. constantly chasing the tune up to try and squezze every last 1/2 hp out of them but in the process caused way more harm than good getting into overly lean or rich carb conditions and detonation. that's very often the killer on those type combos IMO.
proper machine work, proper attention to assembly, clearances etc, good parts and a good tune or the keys to longevity for any engine, but even more so when you have a block that might otherwise be near the edge in the HP catagory.
But why use a block on the edge? Several years ago there wasn't much choice but now there is. I like overkill in a race car.
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: BobR]
#1023835
07/01/11 02:57 PM
07/01/11 02:57 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
|
Quote:
Quote:
personally i know 750 HP RB's aren't really time bombs like some people think if built and tuned properly. aluminum caps and studs, fairly light components, precision balancing etc. etc.
we've got plenty of them making that much HP and more for many years without any problems.
we typically freshen them every couple of years. use "good" quality parts, including the harmonic damper.
i've seen a number of broken blocks over the years and in almost every case the owners were E.T. chasers. constantly chasing the tune up to try and squezze every last 1/2 hp out of them but in the process caused way more harm than good getting into overly lean or rich carb conditions and detonation. that's very often the killer on those type combos IMO.
proper machine work, proper attention to assembly, clearances etc, good parts and a good tune or the keys to longevity for any engine, but even more so when you have a block that might otherwise be near the edge in the HP catagory.
But why use a block on the edge? Several years ago there wasn't much choice but now there is. I like overkill in a race car.
i agree, but sometimes people just don't have the coin to step up to aftermarket pieces.
machine shop owner and engine builder
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: Performance Only]
#1023836
07/01/11 11:42 PM
07/01/11 11:42 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,449
nc
earthmover
OP
top fuel
|
OP
top fuel
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,449
nc
|
My 499 combo with large port heads, flowing about 310 unported went 9.30s at 3000 lbs. 12.5/1 compression, Methanol for fuel. Shifted it at 6800. You should be able to run the same shift points, and the 4.88 might be a touch on the high side. With rollout of 103, 6 percent slip, I come up with 7400 rpm through the traps at 140 mph. 7200 at 136 mph. So it should be real close on the gear, might need to drop to a 4.56 or 4.30. Ask your engine builder how many rpms he wants to see in the lights. If you have room, there are some slicks out there that go 106 roll out, would put you into a situation where you have lots of fresh tire, no gear change to do. A tire that will grow some in the lights like those with the 106 roll out will bring you down to 7100 rpm at 140, with 6 percent slip. is this a stock block or race block combo????? its a bad azz running combo... thanks 
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: earthmover]
#1023839
07/02/11 09:59 AM
07/02/11 09:59 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,996
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
|
Quote:
My 499 combo with large port heads, flowing about 310 unported went 9.30s at 3000 lbs. 12.5/1 compression, Methanol for fuel. Shifted it at 6800. You should be able to run the same shift points, and the 4.88 might be a touch on the high side. With rollout of 103, 6 percent slip, I come up with 7400 rpm through the traps at 140 mph. 7200 at 136 mph. So it should be real close on the gear, might need to drop to a 4.56 or 4.30. Ask your engine builder how many rpms he wants to see in the lights. If you have room, there are some slicks out there that go 106 roll out, would put you into a situation where you have lots of fresh tire, no gear change to do. A tire that will grow some in the lights like those with the 106 roll out will bring you down to 7100 rpm at 140, with 6 percent slip.
is this a stock block or race block combo????? its a bad azz running combo... thanks
Stock 400 block. I had to sleeve a cylinder after the first few passes, one split. Cost me a weekend, plus sleeving,gaskets, rehone, and rings. About $500. Was OK after that, still running in Texas.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: Performance Only]
#1023840
07/02/11 10:42 AM
07/02/11 10:42 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 846
Long Island, NY
Cudafied
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 846
Long Island, NY
|
Quote:
personally i know 750 HP RB's aren't really time bombs like some people think if built and tuned properly. aluminum caps and studs, fairly light components, precision balancing etc. etc.
we've got plenty of them making that much HP and more for many years without any problems.
we typically freshen them every couple of years. use "good" quality parts, including the harmonic damper.
i've seen a number of broken blocks over the years and in almost every case the owners were E.T. chasers. constantly chasing the tune up to try and squezze every last 1/2 hp out of them but in the process caused way more harm than good getting into overly lean or rich carb conditions and detonation. that's very often the killer on those type combos IMO.
proper machine work, proper attention to assembly, clearances etc, good parts and a good tune or the keys to longevity for any engine, but even more so when you have a block that might otherwise be near the edge in the HP catagory.
Hey thanks for the insult
Are you kidding with the blanket assumptions your making 
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: Cudafied]
#1023841
07/02/11 03:13 PM
07/02/11 03:13 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
|
Quote:
Quote:
personally i know 750 HP RB's aren't really time bombs like some people think if built and tuned properly. aluminum caps and studs, fairly light components, precision balancing etc. etc.
we've got plenty of them making that much HP and more for many years without any problems.
we typically freshen them every couple of years. use "good" quality parts, including the harmonic damper.
i've seen a number of broken blocks over the years and in almost every case the owners were E.T. chasers. constantly chasing the tune up to try and squezze every last 1/2 hp out of them but in the process caused way more harm than good getting into overly lean or rich carb conditions and detonation. that's very often the killer on those type combos IMO.
proper machine work, proper attention to assembly, clearances etc, good parts and a good tune or the keys to longevity for any engine, but even more so when you have a block that might otherwise be near the edge in the HP catagory.
Hey thanks for the insult
Are you kidding with the blanket assumptions your making
i wish i knew what made you feel "insulted" and what "blanket assumptions" your talking about.
you cracked a block, so have others. do you fall into the e.t. chaser crowd? who did the fill? was it done properly with a torque plate installed and the proper mix of grout and water? was the block even sonic checked prior to all of the work starting on it. look, maybe you did everything you thought was right and maybe you didn't, who knows, but all i can tell you is my own experiences from over 30 years of building these things. if your seriously taking my comments as blanket statements and insulting, it wasn't meant that way, but i do call em like i see em. i'm not one to try to be "soft spoken" or "politically correct" so know one gets their feelings hurt. 
Last edited by Performance Only; 07/02/11 03:24 PM.
machine shop owner and engine builder
|
|
|
Re: ok 9 sec rb
[Re: Performance Only]
#1023842
07/03/11 10:12 AM
07/03/11 10:12 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 846
Long Island, NY
Cudafied
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 846
Long Island, NY
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
personally i know 750 HP RB's aren't really time bombs like some people think if built and tuned properly. aluminum caps and studs, fairly light components, precision balancing etc. etc.
we've got plenty of them making that much HP and more for many years without any problems.
we typically freshen them every couple of years. use "good" quality parts, including the harmonic damper.
i've seen a number of broken blocks over the years and in almost every case the owners were E.T. chasers. constantly chasing the tune up to try and squezze every last 1/2 hp out of them but in the process caused way more harm than good getting into overly lean or rich carb conditions and detonation. that's very often the killer on those type combos IMO.
proper machine work, proper attention to assembly, clearances etc, good parts and a good tune or the keys to longevity for any engine, but even more so when you have a block that might otherwise be near the edge in the HP catagory.
Hey thanks for the insult
Are you kidding with the blanket assumptions your making
i wish i knew what made you feel "insulted" and what "blanket assumptions" your talking about.
you cracked a block, so have others. do you fall into the e.t. chaser crowd? who did the fill? was it done properly with a torque plate installed and the proper mix of grout and water? was the block even sonic checked prior to all of the work starting on it. look, maybe you did everything you thought was right and maybe you didn't, who knows, but all i can tell you is my own experiences from over 30 years of building these things. if your seriously taking my comments as blanket statements and insulting, it wasn't meant that way, but i do call em like i see em. i'm not one to try to be "soft spoken" or "politically correct" so know one gets their feelings hurt.
My feeling are not hurt and I don't want to get into a pi$$ing contest 
The insult was to my Intelligence by making it sound like it is someones fault that a 40+ year old engine block decided to let go after years or use, Mechanical failure is not predictable. When you get to the end of the life cycle of an old part it usually does not end well. And the fact that you as a respectable macine shop would let someone build an engine at that power level with - and I quote Quote:
when you have a block that might otherwise be near the edge in the HP catagory
instead of using a better block.
Assumptions:
The assumtion of not using good quality parts - balancer included, The assumtion that being an ET chaser is the only reason for this type of failure (as bracket racer the most important things are reliability and consistency not squeezing an extra 1/2 hp), The assumtion that proper machine work was not performed and fanatical attention to detail was not used in assembly and tuning, the assumtion that no one on the planet can build an RB properly. 
As a longtime Mopar racer I raced through the years when you had to use all old parts and hope they would last. Now we have lots of choices from the aftermarket manufacturers why not build with all fresh components when older parts have questionable life expectancy?
|
|
|
|
|
