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Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: moparx] #3096348
11/22/22 03:52 PM
11/22/22 03:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I suppose with this gauge, you have to bleed the system each time you open a line somewhere?
This could get expensive. I'm using DOT 5 fluid at $40 a quart!

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: AndyF] #3096452
11/23/22 01:29 AM
11/23/22 01:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Originally Posted by AndyF
Wow, you've had more than your share of teething problems with the new parts. The brake setup that you have should work okay with a manual master cylinder. If you want to debug it you might start by verifying the brake line pressure at both ports on the master cylinder. Verify that the rear port is feeding the front brakes. You could have a bad prop valve so bypass the prop valve and any other valves in the system. Another way to tackle the debug is to verify brake line pressure at each wheel. That test will show you a kinked line or a stuck prop valve or something like that. A super cheap test is to just put some marks on the rotors with a felt pen and see if all four brakes are working. What you describe sounds like either the fronts or the rears are not working which would point me towards a bad check valve or a bad prop valve or a kinked line or something like that.


I felt that something was wrong and I may have stumbled upon it.

Today I got the manual MC out and the booster in. As I was bench bleeding the 1 1/8" MC, I noticed that the front port got the fluid first and the bubbles first. The rear port only started pushing fluid about 1/3 the way into the stroke. Usually, the front port serves the rear brakes while the rear port serves the front.
With the brake lines connected the traditional way, the REAR is getting pressure before the front.
This can't be right.
I tested a stock iron 15/16' MC and front and rear get pressure at the same time.
I tested the Dr Diff aluminum 15/16" MC and it was exactly like the larger 1 1/8" version: Pressure and bubbles at the front port before the rear.
There was no tech sheet in the box with these master cylinders but Mancini Racing includes this sheet:

892 R.jpg
Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3096454
11/23/22 01:33 AM
11/23/22 01:33 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Kern Dog  Offline OP
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This really sucks and is a DISservice to the consumer.
I had the aluminum 15/16" MC in the car and really thought I had everything right, yet the car didn't feel right. I pulled that out and put the power booster and vacuum pump in today, THEN find that the ports might be reversed. The manual setup probably would have felt much better had there been SOME instructions like Mancini Racing includes with their MCs.

Last edited by Kern Dog; 11/23/22 02:32 PM.
Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3096484
11/23/22 09:50 AM
11/23/22 09:50 AM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 6,175
nowhere
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Sniper Offline
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I don't know of any mopar using a three bolt attachment setup, what is the source for that Mancini unit? For the era in discussion the OEM M/C rear port feeds the front brakes, period. You cannot use what happens when bench bleeding the M/C as an assumption of what happens installed. Hydraulic pressure is what makes the internals all move when in operation, something you do not really have when you are bench bleeding a master. So you have to bottom out the rear piston before the front piston will move and that is mechanically done, not hydraulically.

Since you don't tell us the application for the master cylinders in question any further help is guess work.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Sniper] #3096568
11/23/22 02:18 PM
11/23/22 02:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I bench bled the iron 15/16" master cylinder that I had on the car before the teardown. It pushed fluid equally in time front and rear. The 2 aluminum 2 bolt units both pushed fluid first at the front ports.
The 1 1/8" master is OEM for the following:

RAYBESTOS MC39178 Specifications
Number of Ports 2
Primary Port Thread A 1/2"-20
Secondary Port Thread A 9/16"-20

The ports being different sizes does show it to have the traditional front to rear, rear to front arrangement.
The Mancini units are manufactured by Strange Engineering and use the same sized ports front and rear.

I'm anxious to find the causes for my crappy brakes and it seemed like I stumbled onto it. Maybe I didn't but it seems strange to have the rear brakes get pressure first.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Sniper] #3096573
11/23/22 02:39 PM
11/23/22 02:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Sniper


Since you don't tell us the application for the master cylinders in question any further help is guess work.


Dr Diff supplied the 15/16" aluminum MC. He doesn't state what the original application was for it but he lists that it works for both disc-drum and 4 wheel disc. It could be a Raybestos unit but there are no markings on it to determine that.
The reservoir is divided somewhat but when I fill one side, the other does fill up as well.
The 1 1/8" unit is a Raybestos model. It came in a Raybestos box. It is OEM for a Dodge D and W 150 from 1979-1993. It even is OEM for many vans of the same era.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3096588
11/23/22 03:18 PM
11/23/22 03:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,440
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch Offline
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NW Chicago suburban area
I thought this thread was about "Borgeson steering box install complete"... perhaps another new thread should've been started on brake pedals and MC, etc.


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Mopar Mitch] #3096689
11/23/22 11:56 PM
11/23/22 11:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,333
MARYLAND
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Originally Posted by Mopar Mitch
I thought this thread was about "Borgeson steering box install complete"... perhaps another new thread should've been started on brake pedals and MC, etc.

Yeah the write on the wiped cam was good though....

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3098192
11/29/22 07:59 PM
11/29/22 07:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,161
Los Angeles, CA
JF_Moparts Offline
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Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by Kern Dog
That is like dating a fashion model, then dumping her to date a Wal Mart cashier.


Haha, well I would first say that having dated women across a wide spectrum, sometimes the cashier is a better bargain than the model! Your mileage may vary.

I ran the Borgeson with their own pump, a cooler, the Bergman coupler, and the fast ratio arms. I LOVED the ratio and for the most part, the feel. The ratio was like 10.5:1. The lighter weight was nice too.

The S&G box I have is the best stock box I've ever driven. Carmen (at S&G) built me a nice one. Just about zero slop in the middle, a nice firm feel, and he used the T/A stops for my fast ratio arms. I'm going to buy another for my RR.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: JF_Moparts] #3098221
11/29/22 10:16 PM
11/29/22 10:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline OP
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I would have kept my Firm Feel chuck in place if it didn't have that crappy center slop. I didn't spend this much just to save weight.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: Kern Dog] #3098420
11/30/22 04:13 PM
11/30/22 04:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,947
Oregon
A
AndyF Offline
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Oregon
Yeah this has become a problem when using aftermarket master cylinders. Mopar had the front ports feeding the rear brakes for years but the aftermarket decided that was confusing so they switched over to having the front port feed the front brakes. The master cylinders al look the same and often there is not any instructions.

My buddy at the chassis shop says he has to bench bleed each master cylinder before he knows how the car should be plumbed. It used to be easy but now it is kind of a crap shoot about how things should be installed.

Re: Borgeson steering box install complete [Re: JF_Moparts] #3099145
12/03/22 08:48 AM
12/03/22 08:48 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,681
Florida
BDW Offline
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Florida
Originally Posted by JF_Moparts
Originally Posted by Kern Dog
That is like dating a fashion model, then dumping her to date a Wal Mart cashier.


Haha, well I would first say that having dated women across a wide spectrum, sometimes the cashier is a better bargain than the model! Your mileage may vary.

I ran the Borgeson with their own pump, a cooler, the Bergman coupler, and the fast ratio arms. I LOVED the ratio and for the most part, the feel. The ratio was like 10.5:1. The lighter weight was nice too.

The S&G box I have is the best stock box I've ever driven. Carmen (at S&G) built me a nice one. Just about zero slop in the middle, a nice firm feel, and he used the T/A stops for my fast ratio arms. I'm going to buy another for my RR.



But the Walmart cashier doesn’t have that whinny annoying voice,
My Borgeson install has the loud noise some people complain about, funny thing is, it wasn’t as noticeable with my 340.
The 5.7, although much more power, is a smoother quieter motor.
I may have to lengthen or change the lines, or live with it.

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