Stock rebuild with a few legal upgrades

I know that the 5.7 in my 2007 Ram 1500 won't last forever. Because of that, I'm thinking of getting a spare engine and going through it so when the time comes, I can just swap engines and have minimal down time.
I've read that the heads on the 5.7s flow well enough to support the cubic inches.....Unlike the old style LA, B and RB engines where the heads limit power, the 3G Hemi is not like that.
I want to maintain stock reliability but increase the power within the limits of the emission systems. I'm guessing that a slight cam increase coupled with better flowing exhaust may provide some additional punch while not adversely affecting the emissions and reliability.
Is there a published formula for this goal? Camshaft specs, header brand and part numbers, etc?

I could be off a little but I have heard this to be a good way to go. It works well in my Dart.

5.7 block crank
eagle heads
6.1 camshaft(New Push Rods and Lifters)
long tube headers
Maybe a tune to run e-85

this is on the real cheap. there are more cam choices out there that will net you a very good return but its all in how much you want to wake it up. I went to the point of premium gas, not race gas. this is just my two cents and really does not account for all the guys that have dug deep to pull great numbers out of these with better cam selection.

so far it sounds like for the modern guy the sky is the limit with these motors and still keep the drivability and mileage.

just my limited knowledge on the gen 3 in my car.

Do you need emmisions legal or just a combo that will pass emmissions?

Swapping cam and heads and long tube headers and such is not technically legal but you can do a lot and still pass the sniffer and keep the CEL off.

Also is this a 2wd short box regular cab hot rod/daily driver (light weight) or 4 door 4wd used for towing (heavy weight)?

Sorry...I made the classic mistake of asking for help without giving all the info.
The truck is a 2007 Ram 1500 regular cab 2wd. I need it to be reliable and run 89 octane gas. There have been street legal headers made for these trucks as far as I remember.
I do tow but not all that often....Usually just junker cars I bought or parts cars on a tow dolly.
It has 22" wheels and a 3.55 gear. I intend to swap to a deeper gear since when in OD, the final drive won't be terribly different than it is now.

I am currently in California but may move in a few years to a state where some areas have no emission testing. I still want it to pass the CA testing standards which for now, consist of a visible smoke test, a check of the PCM for codes and an evaporative systems inspection.

392 cam alone is a huge upgrade

Can a 392 cam be used in the earlier pre-eagle 5/7 Hemi???

I was under the impression that they won't work in the early 5.7 Hemi.

I know the they don't have the later cam phaser.

A bit more info here since I keep remembering other stuff....
The MDS needs to remain functional is possible.

the 392 cam will not work in your block, what you want for cheap, easy, efeective is a 6.1 cam from an automatic car (manual trans cars did not have MDS), you can find them around $100 used on fleabay. Also if you can find em and afford em the 6.1 head gives you more flow and compression, I would not hesitate to take another .020 off them either. If you want to keep your 5.7 heads just shave em .030, these hemis are very friendly to high compression, I am currently running 12 to 1 in my daily driver.

I never could feel much performance difference from shorty headers, either get long tubes if you can find one CARB legal with the correct EO number or don't bother.

A little bigger throttle body will make it more throttle responsive and may give you just a hair more HP near redline. If you get a bored and ported factory throttle body it should go un noticed from an over zealous inspector as will a slight cam and compression upgrade.

Cat back exhaust might help a smidge, certainly can add some nice sound when combined with the little bigger 6.1 cam, same with a good cold air intake but again make sure it is CARB legal.

Thank you, Dave.

6.1's didnt have MDS, but I am sure someone makes a compatible cam for a 5.7

A 390 cubic inch plus stroker would be the route to go. Keep the cam stock as well as everything else.

There's one thing that won't set a check engine light, and that's the fact that the computer has no idea how far that crank is moving, it just knows to feed it the fuel.

Cost-wise, a stroker is around $2000.00 and you will certainly have that tied up in headers, cam, computer, etc. going the other route.

As you may remember Franken, you and I have almost identical trucks: I spent some time in DodgeTalk and RamForumz and remember all the hype about 4.56's and 6.1 cams. A number of guys wound up with some really expensive repairs on practically new half-tons at the time, especially if they "tuned" their trucks. Maybe things have changed, I don't know?

Too bad your truck has so many miles (but that is a good thing ), or I would maybe suggest getting a 500 hp V10 (a few around for reasonable prices), 47RE and an ECM from a SRT10 Ram auto. Can't say that thought has not crossed my mind, except I want the 640hp six speed.

Anyhow............somethings for you to think about.

Thank you. I've never warmed up to the Viper V 10 engine. They sound terrible to me.
This is still a truck I use for construction work and commuting is still a reality. I'm toying with retiring but will still do some part time stuff. I need to keep the fuel economy over 15-16 mpg freeway. Currently I can get close to 20 if I'm on flat ground and under 70. If I have a nice power increase, I could deal with a 16 number!
I like the idea of a stroke. The engine would have more low end grunt with that. I've read of guys selling the SRT and Scat Pack 6.4 exhaust manifolds when they install headers. I wonder what the gains would be though. For comparison, a 360 didn't gain much when going from 273-318 manifolds to the 68-70 340 manifolds...A magazine article showed it to be approx 7 hp on a mild 360. Maybe the gains on a 5.7 Hemi might be more?

" I spent some time in DodgeTalk and RamForumz and remember all the hype about 4.56's and 6.1 cams. A number of guys wound up with some really expensive repairs on practically new half-tons at the time, especially if they "tuned" their trucks. Maybe things have changed,"
I'm certainly not looking to squeeze out all the power possible here. I just want a fresh engine with a few noticeable upgrades to increase the power without destroying the reliability or mileage.
The diff is as quiet as new but with the big wheels and tires, it should have deeper gears. This truck came stock with 17" wheels. The ones with 20" wheels usually had a 3.92.This truck had aftermarket 22" wheels on it when I bought it. I have SRT 10 spec 22 x 9 wheels with 305-40-22 Nitto tires. That is a lot of rotational weight.
I don't know if 4.10s are available for this 9.25 axle. I've never looked into it that far.

You're welcome!

I've driven a few SRT10's and Vipers: I absolutely must have one. Under throttle, the sound in the cab is as if it's trying to suck you out of the Driver seat and into the intake.

Yes, the MDS on these trucks really does help the fuel mileage, part of my stroker suggestion. For sure on the exhaust manifolds, I seen a set of SRT shorties in the local classifieds for like $75. Those manifolds are well-respected for their flow but Folks throw them out anyway for headers. As a side note, I've mentioned it on here before, but the original 5.7 exhaust manifolds were reported by Hot Rod magazine to flow nearly as well as tubular headers. This was in '03 and that info came straight from Chrysler.

The actual solution to the gearing has been solved by Chrysler: the 8 speed. I have the 20's with 3.92's and no matter what, the party is over when it shifts from 2nd to 3rd. 1.67 to 1.0 is a big jump.

You should look for a Fourth Gen Ram R/T: 390 hp and Factory 4:10's.

Cam and a tune might be all you want, you'll need a diablo hand held tuner, then hook up with a good tuner and do it over e-mail. I know with a stock 392 they could get another 30-50hp just from a good tune. There are many that offer the service but www.ostdyno.com is the best I've heard

The exhaust manifolds on my 5.7 are a tiny log design that looks worse than a 440 C body manifold. No offense but when anyone claims that exhaust manifolds flow anywhere near what headers do, I get skeptical.
I have been tempted to buy a newer truck but I really like this one. The styling suits me and the tech is still within my understanding. The newer center screens annoy me with everything ran through the damn screen...Our 2015 Challenger had a screen go bad while under warranty.

Thank you.
I'm guessing that this would necessitate 92 or 93 octane to run?
Here in CA, 91 is the best we get aside from race gas. I don't want to run $5.00 per gallon gas all the time!

The octane level is optional, 91 tunes are the norm but they'll toss in a 93 if you want. Tune process is idle, cruise and wot - send the logs over and they tweak them up to 3 times to get it right. Cam and tune you'll have a 430hp 5.7 minimum. Worries about sniffer test? send it back for a sniffer tune (LEAN)

I've been following this thread from the start to see what everyone would have in mind. I know right now off the top of my head, HHP (high horse performance) sells stroker short blocks that you can keep basic or build up, for a relatively affordable price. I know its on the opposite side of the country, but its a start. They will be able to answer all of your questions about any build, and they are authorized dealers of many top shelf brands including stocking mopar parts.

PS- you choose the comp ratio for the stroker short blocks

Hmmm.......

I've found out that the 2003 to 2008 engines had 9.6 compression.
The stock stroke is the same as a 360....3.58 inches. A longer stroke can push the CID to 392-400+ inches.
I've looked at rotating assemblies. Some list some oddly low compression ratios. I wonder if these are for people that intend to run a supercharger?
More cubes would allow me to retain the axle gearing as is.
I do not want to give up reliability and durability just to gain power. I know that as the stroke gets longer, the piston sometimes gets shorter. I don't want hockey pucks for pistons that wear out the rings in 40,000 miles. I'm at 358,000 with this stock engine. If long term durability is an issue with an increase in stroke then I'm sticking with what lasts.

The SRT "manifolds" are actually a shorty header, that s why they flow a little more but a little more ex flow is not going to translate into much HP on a basic 5.7 and it will be obvious to the inspectors and is not CARB legal, either get a long tube CARB legal header (if there is such a thing) or don't bother.

Another decent compromise would be if you can find a 6.1 long block to slide in there with a good tune... cheaper than a stroker but still have OE reliability. Not super obvious to someone poking around under th hood especially if you paint it black.

I like the idea of swapping in a 6.1 but I am so new to all the interchange stuff, I would be flying blind.
I don't know if the intake ports would line up with the 5.7 intake, I wonder if the PCM would have trouble with the bigger cam in the 6.1, I don't know if the truck oil pan and oil filer location is compatible with the 6.1 block....

5.7, 61, 6.2 all are cool and some parts are specific to even the truck models Holley has been doing a ton of mods for those for new and old school rides. It's a bit of a read, but I think you could get a couple ideas from them.




Holley HEMI

Dodge Garage

A 6.1 long block has all the mounting holes and such that you need, same oil filter location and any adapters that may come on it are an easy swap to use your 7.7 adapters. The oil pan and sucker tube need swapped on (not hard) timing cover needs swapped (not hard), intake bolts on and it's much easier to swap the engine when you have the intake off any how. Ex manifolds are different but easily swap and you probably want to put in new bolts anyhow... the computer will notice it running leaner and add fuel for you, not perfect but will get it close (a tune will certainly help just like it would on a 5.7 but is not absolutely needed, my ram 1500 with a 6.4 runs awesome with a stock tune and that is an even bigger difference). If you were to buy a 6.1 long block from say auto zone it would litteraly bolt in exactly like a 5.7 long block from auto zone. No need for this to be complicated.

Yikes!

****************************************************************************************************************************************************
NuTech Long Block Engine DDM1
Part #
DDM1
SKU #
377848
4 year warrantyYear Warranty
0.0
(0)
0.0 out of 5 stars.

fits your vehicle
Notes: Long block, IMPORTANT: See Warranty Information Bulletin. The VIN #is required to ensure that the correct part is shipped. Block cast #5037388AB. Left head cast #5037369AA. Right head cast #5037369AA. Cam cast #379AD. EGR in right head. Call NuTech at 1-800-790-9094 for customer service, availability and technical assistance.

$
5804
99
+$1160.00 Refundable Core
**************************************************************************************************************************************************

That is almost $7000 !
Maybe I'll look at used ones?

I wasn't actually suggesting buying one from autozone or even a new one, I was just telling you that so you would get the idea what it would be like putting one in. I would suggest getting a used one.

I know. I am not against spending a few extra dollars but that rebuilt one gave me sticker shock.
About a year or so ago, a guy online was talking about "rebuilt" 5.7 engines for $2500 installed. I called him out on it, telling him that you couldn't even do a quality rebuild for that price when you factor in parts and machine work, let alone installation.
I have never bought a "crate" engine. I have rebuilt every one since 1990.
A used 6.1 could be a good idea. I'd be tempted to tear it down to hone the cylinders and replace the rings and bearings.

A few years ago a brand new short block 5.7 eagle used to be $500 bucks! New not re-man! I was so upset when I found that out just after re-building my own cuz my ring and bearing kit cost almost that much, I knew then I should buy a bunch and stash em cuz just like magnum cylinder heads they were too cheap for a while and they were gonna go through the roof, I just didn't have the money. Same thing when SRT8 6.4 cams were $68 brand new from the dealer now they are like $200. Next time I find something cool that's way under priced at mopar I am buying a huge pile of em.

I read where you wrote that you have a 6.4 in place of the 5.7. Is that a VVT engine? Can one of those be retrofitted to a 2003-2008 style cam?

My 5.7 was a VVT engine (2011) your is not (2008 and older= non vvt).

I would have to look again butt I think tone wheels are different, cam would need to be locked, timing cover is different and yours wont fit a 6.4, I don't know if there is one that would work on a 6.4 with your accessories. AC compressor was relocated on trucks. Your intake will have a significant mismatch on the big 6.4 ports. It could be done but it is not such a straight forward swap as a 6.1 anybody who can swap out a 5.7 for a 5.7 could swap a 6.1 in place of an early 5.7. If you can swap late 5.7s you can swap in a 6.4 just as easy. Maybe we should call them gen 3.0 and gen 3.1 hemis? Like they do with computer programs...

Last year, I bought a book by Larry Shephard about rebuilding the 3G Hemi. While it does have some great information, there is almost nothing in there about mixing and matching stuff from different years. THAT was what mattered to me the most.
We have all developed years of experience with the A, LA, Magnum, B and RB engines and their interchange of parts. With the millions of these new engines that are out there, I am surprised to find so little information other that what I have read here.
Thank you, though. It isn't as if I am UNgrateful. I am just surprised.

I put almost 100k on a 434ci(4.03x4.25) 5.7 in my 08 300C, short block still looked good after we pulled the heads.

If you want to keep the "outside" looking stock , Intake Manifold and all except legal headers, your best bet is https://www.performanceinjectionequipment.com/ for the older heads , you will not find a better ported pre 09 head......these guys legitimately put out a 320/340cfm head, depending on how happy the checking bench is @28hg

Comp cams 268h sounds stock and I can tell you it'll pass PA's smoger test with a good 87 OCT tune.

OR

https://www.high-performance-engines.com/product-p/sp97.htm with PIE heads your Intake set of JBA Headers Cat4ward headers and Comp Cams 268H it'll make around 430-440FLy wheel HP ......... I know that combo can run 12.60s @ 108-110 in a 06 4X2 RCSB Ram 1500....with the truck intake with the timig cover cover changed over and the useing an 06 auto Intake that same truck ran a 12:45 and with a Mod man with a top made by Joe Ocone(OCP manifold guy ) it went 12.21@114 the runs were either at Island Dragway(NJ) or Maple Grove(PA) .......all runs were on an 89 tune with HP tuners.

Granted the out of pocket cost close to 7k and ATK will sell you the short block with the cam installed........as for running the MDS on the comp cam, it can and has been done , it'll will be down about 20hp/30ft from the 430/440hp #s from above the MDS lifters lose about .020 travel when you get above 5700/6000 rpms,

The ATK short blocks are well built and take a hard core beating well.

Has anyone here had any experience with these guys?

https://www.powertrainproducts.net/...749779364&utm_content=All%20Products

They are out of Maryland....across the country!
Free shipping though. $660 core charge. I was hoping to keep this engine for a future classic car project but I suppose that there will be plenty of junkyard Hemi engines for awhile, right?

Jasper does them too

03-08 they made close to 3 million 5.7 hemis so I hope so...LOL

As for Powertrain ,I've used a few of their GM 5.3s 3 of their 5.0 Coyotes(best price around) and 1 of their 6.1 Hemi(s) always did what they are supposed to do..

Not a fan of Jasper, got a Fud 4.6 from them that was junk out of the box, and fought with them over it,



But .........I don't know of many people who have had an issue with Jasper, my brother and another friend buy 3 to 6 Jasper Remans a year for their respective shops and between the two of them only 1 issue over the last 10 years. .

They seem to perform the updates to a 5.7H so might be a good choice, I'd def ask around first though

I was nervous to do it but I just returned from a 1700 mile round trip from Northern CA to Scottsdale AZ and back.
The 364,000 mile engine ran like new aside from burning a little oil. This makes me wonder if I can get by using a low mile replacement engine...?
I am also thinking that I could do a ring, bearing and gasket job on a low mile engine as a possibility.

I bet you can

My info tells me that NO 6.1 engines had MDS. That alone is a deal breaker.
I'd like a bit more cam than a stock 5.7, something that will not throw an MIL code and not require a "tune". The assclowns in this state have cracked down on computer controlled aftermarket "tunes" even if they do not increase emissions.

You need to talk to a shop that specializes in the new hemi cars. BFNY, HHP or MMX. I think the mds limits how aggressive the lobes can be.

A cam and headers should wake it up. Throttle body will likely have zero gains at its hp. The intake opening is the restriction, its the same as the throttle body.

It takes about 5 minutes to open the intake manifold up to fit a 90MM throttle body, been there done that. It made it much more responsive to throttle input, WOT power didn't seem much if any improvement but part throttle is very much improved with a bigger throttle body. Probably want to get a bored factory throttle body as the electronics in the cheap chinese ones are not good, I am just about ready to make a post to report my findings on them.

The 2 intakes I have, a 6.1 and a car plastic from an early 5.7. They cannot go bigger without machining the seal groove flat. The opening is 80mm and 90mm puts them in the seal groove. Maybe the 6.4 intake has more room.

I am back revisiting this topic.
I momentarily considered just buying a low mile 2012-2015 truck just to save some time and effort. Doing that would reset the clock back about 250-280,000 miles but cost me about $19,000 to $25,000.
I like the truck that I have. It isn't easy to find a newer regular cab, short bed in a color that I like. Black, white and all those silver-gray-granite color trucks bore the hell out of me. I don't want a Quad Cab either.
I talked to my Machinist. He is familiar with the 5.7 Hemi so I'm going to look for a good core to have him rebuild for me. If I can get away with a hone and new rings, that would be great. If I have to bore the block, that is fine too. Here in CA, they recently passed some BS legislation that prohibits anyone from installing a "tune" to computer controlled vehicles. If the emission testing guy finds evidence of any non stock tune in the history, they deny the smog certificate. This means I need to keep the engine within the limits of the stock settings. I'd like to use a bigger cam that would provide some improvement without triggering a check engine light or requiring a "tune".
I'm already on board with switching to deeper axle gearing, at least 3.92 but maybe as much as a 4.10. The additional gearing will help with towing as well as making the truck feel more peppy in everyday driving. Also, after 366,000 miles, I'm guessing that the fuel injectors could stand to be douched out. I'm anxious to see how the truck runs with a fresh mill and more gear...

I'm really curious if there is anyone out there who just added a stroker kit to their engine and kept all the other factory related bits and tune, and mds. It would be neat to hear what their experience with the project was like and if it was worth it.

Maybe you could be that guy Franken?

Yeah, I guess that I could.

Lots of ideas rolling through my head,
I was out at several wrecking yards today and saw something like 15 or more Hemi equipped cars, trucks and Durangos. Man....The intake manifold on the Durango models is right up under the base of the windshield. I don't know how you could R & R a 5.7 in one of those without lifting up the body. Removal in a junkyard isn't easy either. Guys out here are cutting the frames to let the engine and trans drop down low enough to remove.

Looking at pricing online, what was a $2000 price for a 4.05 stroke rotating assembly is now closer to $3000 if they are even available. To me, that looks like $3200 with tax plus shipping to gain maybe 45 HP. That might not be worth it to me. I'm already looking at swapping in a 3.92 gear so that alone will help. Maybe a lower mile used engine with clean injectors would perform better than what I have right now.
I learned that while the first generation of the 5.7 Hemi is from 2003 to 2008, the MDS feature only came along in late 2005 so any replacement engine would need to be in that range. An increase in power over a stock mill is great but not if the costs keep going up like this.

We're in the process of doing a rebuild/stroker upgrade on the5.7 thatcame in Kayse's (wife) 2006 Charger Daytona.

The guy building it (Dan aka qwkmopardan on here) just ordered the Molnar crank and rods.
With everything for the reciprocating assembly he said to expect about $2600-2800 for that these days.

By the time it's all said and done I expect an easy $5-6k in the engine at least.
Kayse will NEVER sell the car so what ever gives her more power and makes her happy is fine with me.

As far and pulling the engine in a Durango, to do the engine swap in out 2004 Durango I pulled the intake off and made a bracket that bolts to the heads to pull the engine.
It's still a royal pain to access everything else just to unbolt it.
Online it says it's easier to remove the body with a 2 post lift to access everything.

I can see why they would just cut the frame rails in a salvage yard to pull the engine, it would be far easier to do to get the engine and trans out.

It makes me wonder though if the owners of the junkyards are bothered by the practice. Yeah, they get a sale but in the process, sometimes fenders get sawed through along with other collateral damage.

I was out there in the mix today. I had help today getting a rear axle out of a truck. For you east coast guys, you'd wig out at what we have out here. Clean, dry parts that barely need any help to remove. A few spritzes of PB Blaster and a short breaker bar and *CRACK* the nuts came loose. Hardware can usually be used again. Getting the axle out was easy. The truck had NO bed on it so access was great.
Then.....
These axles are heavy! I've pulled and bought several 8 1/4" and 8 3/4" axles and hauled them myself. I can lift and move them with a little bit of grunting. This is a 9 1/4" truck unit with rotors and calipers. The axle tubes are 3 1/2", maybe bigger. While loading, my buddy slipped and fell....injuring his knee. I had to take a board from the back of another truck and break it down for him to use as a crutch. I helped him out, loaded the tools and was aiming to just leave the axle where it was. It was on HIS wheelbarrow though. I helped him to the truck and put the tools away. On his insistence, I went back and wheeled the axle up to the building, paid for it and plan to return for it tomorrow. My buddy and I are even now....In 2016 I hurt my back helping him load a front and rear axle from a truck that he parted out!

The intake comes off pretty easy actually, then you got lots of room to get to upper trans bolts, lift engine...

I still think the 6.1 is the easy way, if nothing else a lot of people are putting all the 6.1 guts in 5.7 blocks (including pistons) and I can tell you from experience it runs just fine, no CEL, stock tune.

On the later ones you can even put in a 6.4, I am currently runnin a 6.4 in my 2011 5.7 truck and you could never tell the difference under the hood unless you spot the BGE on the side of the block or in the computer as it's also stock tune. It adds typically around 10% fuel but it it is still within the allowable 25% before it would trigger a code.

The computers adapt pretty well to the bigger better engines, sure a tune would probably help butt it is still much better than the 5.7.

The pricing on a used 6.1 engine is not even close to reasonable around here. I'd run a used one if I could. I do wonder about how it would pass a test given the wild cam it has.

They only look for codes right? Plug the scanner in, look for codes, no codes no problem. They are not checking to see if it makes the exact same HCs, NOX CO2... just checking if it all is working within the factory parameters. The cam is not big enough to cause misfires or else they could not run it in a 6.1 either. No misfire, not too lean then no codes. A reman 5.7 is $3700-$4200 ish, I can buy a low miles 6.1 right now for $3000, I know if I had the choice witch one I would run. Heck you can sell the intake for good money as you won't need it and get a good chunk of that back too boot. 6.1s start around $3500 on flea bay and carpart

I believe he's in California, the state that just passed legislation stating that you can't "aftermarket tune" the engine anymore.

The different tone ring on the crank means he can't run a 2009 or later engine.

The swap you did is more of a bolt in.

On the 2004 era Durango's (AWD/4wd) you can't get at the torque convertor bolts with the engine sitting on the engine mounts.
The aluminum bracket that bolts the engine to the trans at the bottom won't even come out until you lift the engine up.
You can unbolt the bracket, but you can't move it out of the way to get at the torque convertor bolts.

The 6.1 engines didn't have MDS. My truck does. I would guess that without the MDS wiring being connected, the MIL would stay on.
(Malfunction Indicator Light)

Yes, and that would require a tune to keep the light off and not throw a DTC code.

California is making life difficult for car owners.

You guys are right, I was scratching my head wondering how we got away with it on that one, that truck was an 04 with no MDS.

We did one (non MDS 5.7 into a MDS 1/2 ton) on a 2011 and it would not set the CEL or trigger an MDS code if we always ran it in manual 5th gear, if we left it in "drive" it would set the code and turn on the light as soon as it tried to use the MDS.

You could still put in a 6.1 long block and use your MDS cam, lifters and solenoids, you would still have more compression, displacement, cylinder head flow... I did a similar thing on my current ram 2500, I put in a 6.4 BGE short block with 5.7 cam, heads, intake, exhaust... makes awesome TQ and the stock computer is running it all just fine.