420 going on the dyno updated 6-30-20

OK who wants to take a guess at what this thing will make.

420 CI
4.065 bore
4.050 stroke
13.5:1 comp
Thitek heads 2.18 intake valve flow 390 at 650
Bullet cam 645 640 260 266 on a 110
Ritter low rise intake
1000 HP holley
Milodon oil system
on C12 fuel

That should be on the +700hp for sure.....I wil go out on a limb and say 740hp...

i will see your 740hp and raise to 777hp

Who doesn't want a triple seven.

I say 755 hp. Please let us know and get video!

My guess is "more with 3" plenum spacer"

Should be making pulls tomorrow or Tuesday Fired it Friday and ran out of time. Guy that owns the dyno was busy this weekend. Thing sounds wicked!!! Making some base pulls then first thing to do is add a 2 inch spacer......although I don't have the hood clearance for it I want to see what it does.

Where do you have timing and do you plan on moving your timing around?

My 426 makes best power at 22 have it at 20 now to start will fool around from there,

735HP and 575TQ....

I'm a Gen III Dummy, but am looking forward to your results.

Also, where is the engine being tested, and on what type of engine dyno?

Fighting a water leak in the front cover motor plate deal. Got it fixed now, pulls in the morning.

It is a Stuska dyno

765 hp

At what shop? PA, MD, DE, NJ?

Georgetown, DE Performance injection equipment

SO made a couple hits with the 850 dyno carb and timing from 20-26 degrees it liked 22 made 748HP.@7300. Putting the bigger carb and spacers on it and going to play with jetting should be worth some HP. ALso the headers we had to use are 13/4 and the ones going in the car are 2" not sure what if anything that will do. Can't get the 2" to fit on the dyno without reinventing the wheel.

What kind of car is this going in? I can't wait to see track times especially from an East coast track.

Nice, but I think there's more in it. I'll take a s.w.a.g. that the 1.75" headers are costing you about 20 HP over a good set of 2" tubes.

Yep, I know where G-town DE is, but haven't been through it in years. My trips from NoVA in that direction tend to go south (OC) or north (NJ) of there.

Making some steam!! keep updates coming

Nice shot in the air.... Winner Winner Chicken Dinner !!! Well AlMost...

Yep, at least 20HP down with those tubes....maybe more! What was the TQ?

Nice. Wondering how high you spun it and did the power linger or drop and at what rpm

What block are you using ?

Its a 6.1 block

The power kinda flattened out from 7300 up...…….The reason being its floating the valves. I have to rethink the valve train it will self destruct like this. I have .060 piston to valve on the intake side .100 on the exhaust. Exhaust is fine intake not so much. I have run solid roller stuff at .055 and never had an issue but with .040 preload I think the lifters are pumping up and hanging the valves. The rocker tips look a little funky and the valve tip on the edge looks a little weird. I am thinking I need to shim the lifters solid and run it like a solid roller. The springs are also suspect it has a 2.18 solid stem intake valve (kinda heavy) in my opinion for a beehive spring. Pulling it down to address these issues I used a standard lifter and would rather not go crazy at this point with T&D rockers would rather use the stock rockers (budget) but if I need to prolong the project and buy the T&D stuff I will. What is the general consensus on lifters at this level ? I am pretty sure lifters and springs need to be addressed.

It is going in a 65 Coronet

Very nice. I hope all goes well.

What we do is use a cam with smooth lobes, stay around .615 lift, hollow stem intake valves, Ferrea beehive or LS double spring and Ti retainer. We also use the Johnson lifter and either 20 or 30wt. oil...no more than 30wt.
Also use Manton shafts to keep the rocker motion more stable.

What spring are you running? Me and Craig had a long conversation about this a couple weeks ago

Using the manley 221439 springs. I will say the cam has a fast lobe. I wanted to use the hollow stem valves from the beginning but was convinced to keep the solid stems in the heads, still might put them in. My big concern is the lifter pump up with .060 P/V on the intake side. The exhaust is good over .100. How tight have you guys run these things? It did have 15w40 in it and it did have 100+psi of oil pressure, another concern I was planning to switch to 10w30 or lighter. Has anyone used the crower or isky lifters yet? Are the johnsons worth $750? Just steep for a hyd lifter I think.

Here is a picture of my 65 and 66 the 66 has a 426 gen 3 6.1 base motor

The 66 has 2 carter carbs and a Indy modman with a chrome dome air cleaner and hidden coils. Runs 11.0s on radials through full 3 inch exhaust.

Nice car. Crowers are Johnson lifters. I dont know of $750 Johnsons. I plan to run the axle oiled Johnsons in my next motor. They cost about 350.

That spring specs are weaker than PSI1515 that I use. Also, the best part about running Thiteks is using a dual spring.

Yep, dual springs, johnson lifter, and either go with a slower lobe, or lighter int. valve...you could even go Ti but you'll need to watch your P/V clearance as the margin on the Ti valves is much thicker.

The short travel Johnson's were quoted at $740. maybe I should look around. I would like to talk to Craig about what spring setup works best but I can't find any contact information anywhere.

Sending a PM your way. Thanks

I really don't get the short travel lifter thing. Just measure for pushrod lenght and get a pushrod .020-.030 longer. Or less. Not sure of the growth amount on these g3 but i assume its around .005

If you have fb you can get Craig on messenger. I have his phone number but it might be his personal number I really don't want to give out

I'll try to contact him through Facebook, I can appreciate not giving his number out. My theory is the regular lifter has a bunch of travel, I have .040 preload IF the lifter pumps up my P/V goes to .020. It tagged an intake valve on cyl 5 during one of the pulls. When we pulled it apart the rockers already had some funky scuff marks and so did the valve tip.I was thinking the short travel lifter would reduce the chance of pump up if I had .010 of preload the most I could lose is the .010.

I don't use the short travel lifters....

Thanks for all the input guys all good stuff much appreciated.

It just hit me. We talked about those behives on those heads before you even bought them, correct?

Put a .010 pushrod in the motor

We did talk about it. I was nervous then and I talked myself into keeping the springs on there. I really feel if I can get it to carry power to 75-7600 it would make 780ish. What part number lifter do you use?

In current motor I have been running for years has been stock lifter. The other set for new engine and the lifter Steff was running is the hylift 2335s lifter

Anyone try shorter tip valves and lash caps with stock rockers?

Throw that sucker in this car.

Whos car is that? Always wanted one. They look great with big tire too

Brad watt had a picture of it and a post looking for this car for a Friend. A for sale ad came up shortly after that. I think it’s in Ohio

I think an 8 second Gen 3 would look pretty cool planted between the frame rails

If I had you money I would buy it

If I had your money I would build a Gen 3.

Lol touche

I was within 8hp,,,,,,,,Nice little beast there.

Any Updates?

Making a lifter and spring change. updating to Manton shafts and putting a vacuum pump on it. Everything is ordered just waiting for some parts to show up.

All the updates are done its back on the dyno hopefully we can make in the 775hp range
updates
Short travel lifters
Manton Shafts
Vac pump
Spring change to PSI 1516
lash caps
putting the 2 inch header on it
We had some valve float issues on the last pulls we made before the updates

Hows the rocker geometry with the lash caps?

Am I reading this all right that you made 750ish HP with stock rockers and lifters?

The geometry is pretty good I wouldn't say great as the valve was already a little tall but it gives the rocker more area on the valve.

Yes we made 748 with the stock rockers and hellcat lifters from mopar the lifters were not happy in the upper rpm range 6500-up and I can't really blame the lifter I think the spring had a lot to do with it.

Made a couple light pulls but the puke tank is getting a ton of oil through the vacuum pump. I have the Ritter intake and have the pickup for the vacuum pump coming out of the oil fill. The valve covers are not very friendly for a fitting. Who has ever used a vac pump on one of these and where do you put the fitting. We leaked the enegine and it leaks 4% cold so I don't think it's that the engine has blowby. This thing is pushing a bunch of oil in the higher RPMs.

Moved the fitting to the top corner of the valve cover and made a couple pulls and oil problem is fixed. Getting ready to get after it.

Valvetrain issues persist have to dig into it. It still wants to float valves and hang valves open. I am thinking solid lifters and T&D rockers. Will be another year before I can get back on it. Lost my Dad last year and it side tracked me and now my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer so my time is limited. This thing may find it's way into the for sale section.

Sorry to hear of your family issues. When does it start to float? How high are you wanting to spin it? Maybe the lobes are too aggressive?

I also use a Ritter intake and a vac pump, very little oil in the tank. I drilled and tapped the manifold just under the oil filler and drilled and tapped the other side of the intake at the passage in the head. I put a tee in the vacuum line and pull from both sides on the engine. This way I cut down on the air speed and it does not pick up as much oil.

It starts around 5400 and just gets worse. Funny thing is it didn't do it on the first couple pulls. Almost like the lifters pumped up. I really think it is still a lifter preload issue. It is so hard to get a really accurate measurement with the way these engines are setup. It sucks adjustable rockers cost so much. The cam is pretty aggressive so it is not helping. With 5 hits and none of them really hard hits all under 6500 it has already scuffed the lash caps pretty bad so it is not happy. The good thing is with the fitting in the valve cover I am getting hardly nothing in the breather tank. The geometry is really not the best after looking at the lash caps the pattern is from bottom to top of the cap. The rocker is srubbing the entire lash cap. The rocker shaft seems like it needs to be shimmed up from the pedestal and it would be better. I would like to turn it 7200-7400. I am not sure how the T&D stuff installs but it would be nice if you could shim the shafts with the T&D setup.

Personally I think the weight of the extra tall hydraulic lifters hurts. The solid stem 2.18 valve is also a problem. I would get Ti intake valves before trying anything else. Either Ti intake or a Double spring around 180 on the seat. It sounds like the cam is lofting the lifter.

I don't see how you can do a double spring with the stock rockers so it looks like double springs and rockers. Piston to valve is really tight on the intake side and I just don't have the room for a Ti valve with the additional margin. I have the valve pockets as deep as they can go. When you start getting away from stock these engines are pretty tricky. I may just sacrifice the power and put a milder cam in it. I just don't have the time to keep going down this road.

I would assume Craig @Thitek simply specs a beed lock groove lower on the stem to run a double spring retainer that works with stock rockers.

Even the 2.16 valve that Thitek uses is extremely heavy compared to stock Apache valve

Mocked new rockers up today. Pulled the $750 lifters apart to get some slugs made to make them solid. I am still on the fence with the double spring deal. Looks like there is plenty of room on this new rocker to do a double spring. Of course I need to buy yet another set of pushrods.

Did you test the seat and open pressures of those springs? Its possible to get a bad batch. I had some Manley NexTek that were bad.

We tested the springs and they are pretty much spot on 140 on the seat and 400 at max lift. I am thinking about going to the hollow stem valve maybe. They are like 12 grams lighter. I am not sure about 400 open with hollow valves. Or just doing a dual spring. The problem is I can't seem to find all the pieces (locks, Retainers) that will work with the spring diameter I think I need. I have 3/8 heavy wall pushrods in it and the lifters are heavy. I have always been told the weight on the cam side of the rocker is not a big factor. I would really like to get some input from someone who has run this 2.18 valve over 7000 RPM I can't be the first person to do this. I don't have ANY piston to valve to put a thick margin titanium valve in it. Options are limited on these things. If anyone has any input I am all ears.

Those Harland Sharp Rockers? I have the T & D's and they don't look like that. I'm not running a 2.18 Intake, but I am close, running a Steel 2.165. Don't know the weight but I've routinely spun my motor to 8000 every pass for years with the only issue of trying to get a 3rd season on a set of shimmed solid Hyd. Lifters. One of the Plastic Retainers started getting sloppy and a Lifter was trying to rotate and hurt the Lobe. I also had 3 others where the Roller Needle Bearings were not smooth when spun with your finger. I never noticed any issues when lashing valves or post race inspections. And in fact, it ran it's fastest passes with the hurt lifter and cam. Again, I was going on my 3rd season with them and never inspected them in the off season. Had I been smart and ripped the Heads off to inspect the LIfters, I would have caught it. I will NEVER do that again!! Take it from me, every off season, Rip the Heads off and inspect or better yet, replace the Lifters and the Guides. Cheap insurance. For Spring, I run the Pac 1237X Dbl. Valve Spring on my Thiteks. Next time I have the Heads freshened up, I'm going to go larger on the Intake Valve and change material to Ti. I've also switched to Jesel Dogbone Lifters. I won't be shimming Lifters solid anymore.

Hey Steff
Yes they are Harland Sharps after talking to them a few times I decided to go with their rockers. I was going to shim the lifters I have but what is the deal with the Jesel lifters. Do you need to machine the block to use them? I really didn't want to disassemble the short block. I am thinking I need some more spring but I think Craig uses a custom valve with the lock grooves moved around, these heads from Frankenstein have Manley valves and with a dual spring retainer the valve tip is pretty low in the retainer and it is real sketchy with clearance to the rocker.

They make a Dogbone style Lifter with a Steel Guide, They are a Bolt-in in the Block. However, you will need longer pushrods (about 1 1/2" longer) and also have to check pushrod clearance in the head, thru the travel of the valve. The Pushrod Seat in the Lifter is just above the Roller, so it is deep into the Lifter. The reason behind it is to reduce the side load on the Lifter with the seat being deep in the Lifter body, versus being at the top of a stock lifter. Only bad thing about them is cost. They're about $210-230ish per Lifter plus the cost of the Guides at about $330ish for the kit. I lucked out and scored a perfect, low use, used set for a lot less than new. Otherwise I wouldn't have them. Another plus side is they are rebuildable.

Thanks Steff yeah for $4000 I think I'll shim a couple sets of lifters. I have seen the factory plastic holders break on stock engines it's a sham no one makes a drop in solid lifter with a better retainer.

Would these work?

Very Nice! Who makes those? Don't get the logo.

Hi Bob,

If you go to facebook and contact Erik Storms he sells them.

Thanks!

OK shimmed the lifters solid, put the HS rockers on. Valve train issues are gone!!!!! Made 751HP at 6900 and 602LBFT at 5400. Everything is happy and this thing is going in the car. I was really hoping to make closer to 800HP but I think to get another 50HP is going to take getting a little crazy with things. I am not willing to spend anymore on this deal. Hopefully I can get the car together by the end of the season and make some hits to backup these numbers.

Biff,

Who's rockers are those? And how many cubes?

420 cubes and they are Harland Sharp rockers. The Harland Sharp rockers are fine you just have to shim the lifters solid. The way the Gen 3 Hemi oils the lifter these rockers will not work with a Hyd lifter.

Video
https://www.facebook.com/performanceinjectionequipment/posts/3210908912328179

Good to see you got it sorted. Were you still using the 1 3/4 dyno headers.

Yes the 751 was with the dyno headers. The 2 inch TTI headers were rubbing on the dyno and we just couldn't get them to fit without banging everything up. I am sure the headers are worth some power as well as if I could get a Dominator on it in the car. We were using a QS950 Quick Fuel carb on the dyno. The A/F was good but I bet a 1050-1100 Dominator would make more power. At some point I may get a Dominator flange Ritter intake and see what it does with a Dominator. I don't have room for an adapter and a Dominator.

Took the car out for the maiden voyage Saturday. Air was terrible 90 degree heat high humidity and for some reason I never checked my throttle operation before going to the track and it was not opening all the way, I have to get that figured out I am losing about a 1/4 of travel. The car still went a best of 10.07 @ 134. Not bad for an all steel including the scoop 65 Coronet. I think the ET and MPH backup the horsepower numbers and it still has more in it. The scales were not open so I couldn't weigh it but I am saying it probably weighs 36-3650 with me in it.

Good first outing. Will be interesting to see how much it improves with good air and more track time.

Can we get a video of the engine running?

Well, I guessed 740hp....But I had seen a very similar build. Congrats...

https://youtu.be/Tw936RlgYHU

Whats the setup on your car? Trans, gear, converter, etc? If you dont mind sharing

The trans is a 727 with light weight internals, A&A 2.74 first gear but steel drum. Converter is a 9 inch Lupo. Car has a Dana with 4.56 gears.

Really nice! Love the car and engine.

Congrats on the 10.0 , sounds like high 9's next outing.

420? I'm going to guess it will be "HIGH" horsepower then LOL

Any issues with the Harland rockers ?

No issues so far making some changes this season putting titanium intake valves and dual springs on it.