I've been dying to update progress on my swap from a Big block to a 3G Hemi.
I had a perfectly fine running 69 HP 383 with 915HP heads, a DP4B/650DP, HP Manfiolds and a 4 speed with 3.23's. I drove it like that for about 1000 miles and it bored me. The combo that I thought I wanted and I'd always dreamed about. I didn't like it for the type of driving that I do.
So, I pulled the 383 and parted all my big block stuff on Craigslist and on here. Sold all of it for a fair price and decided that it was time for a new hemi. I was just upset with bent pullies, leaky valve covers and general old car quirks.
I worked from 2006-10 for a shop that worked on and modified the LX Hemi cars, so I know my way around them quite well. I fell in love with the powerplant in a 4700lb station wagon, so my 3600 lb B-body would be ridiculous fast with just a simple head and cam 6.1. I started with just a bare 6.1 block. Literally nothing else at first. I knew about what I wanted, and I had really big dreams at first. I was looking to build a motor that would compliment all the handling stuff that I've done to the car.
-1.24" T bars -Koni Red Shocks -AndyF's LCA plates -Tubular UCA's (Coming off now...) -New bushings and Poly where I could -Firm Feel Firmer than stage 3 box from Dick -11.75" with Firm Feel Carbon Metallic Pads
I ran without sway bars, so a set of fresh leaf springs and F&R Hotchkis or Hellwig sway bars are about all I need to complete the suspension to where it needs to be. All of the above made the car feel amazing, even in it's incomplete state.
I started my motor build parts gathering a few years ago and it all started with a $300 6.1 block that I was going to build a 426 or forged 6.1 out of. I quickly realized that I didn't need that much motor, so after some horsetrading with my friend uhcoog1 (wade) I ended up with a stock bore 6.1 in great shape. I picked up a stock set of 6.1 rods and pistons and started my process of building up a mostly stock 6.1 shortblock. Nothing fancy except for a set of stock rings opened up a little bit to keep the pistons from breaking the ring lands (a common 6.1 issue). Otherwise, the whole motor is stock spec with no after market parts aside from the valve springs (PAC) and the Comp Camshaft.
Here is the motor buid
4.055x3.580 6.1 Stock pistons/new rings Stock Powdered metal rods with new Chrysler rod bolts (Same as 8.4 viper) King Bearings Stock 6.1 Timing set and tensioner Melling Oil pump Jeep SRT8 Oil Filter Adapter Frank Racing 219/231 .585/.585 112LSA GTP ported 5.7 2009+ Eagle Cylinder heads with PAC 1220 Springs. These are a closed chamber heads and will net 11:1 CR with my stock shortblock. More than do-able with 93 octane all day long Stock 6.1 Intake Manifold with BBK 80mm tb SRT4 Stage 1 43lb injectors Stock 6.1 fuel rail TTI 1 3/4 Headers to a 2.5" H pipe system with turbo mufflers Lakewood Bellhousing from a SB MP/Mcleod Hemi 10.5 Conversion Flywheel Sachs Diaphragm 10.5 stock clutch TTI Motor mount brackets with a solid and rubber mount on either side Mildon Oil Convesion oil pan
It's a bit scary to me how stock and simple this motor is. Nothing fancy at all.
I've just purchased the Megasquirt MS3X kit from Mike @ www.efisource.com as of yesterday and I'm really looking forward to running his system. It is the first kit to come out for a 3g hemi that is a refined harness that is based on megasquirt.
The electronics portion of this build will be a copy of the fuel system that uhcoog1 has on his road race duster. So simple yet it more than makes up for the fact that I'm still running a stock fuel tank. If he can't run out of fuel on a roadcourse, then anyone on here will be fine.
My fuel system will be the following Carter 4601HP pump (ran both my 383 and 440 with a carb previously) BCBroncos Accumulator to act as a resivour/surge tank. Walbro GSL392 Inline pump Corvette Fuel/Filter Regulator by Wix.
The car already had 1/2" feed and return lines in stainless with a 1/2" stock style pick up that I added a 1/2" return to, so my fuel system is ready for whatever I can throw at it with just a pump change.
Over the next few weeks I'm going to detail my engine build and install for everyone to see.
I'd like to eventually do up a website to help inform people about the process of putting this new style of motor into a classic mopar. I had a cardomain website a long time ago, and I'd like to do it one better.
The goal for me is to have a fair weather daily driver that I can hop in and knock out 300 mile day trip while maintaining above average fuel mileage, not smelling like fuel (its a real problem), being able smile from the speed and being able to have a road course worthy classic Mopar.
Get some Alex! You and I share alot of the same goals. I ordered the 92MM TB from Mike a week ago and am anxiously awaiting its arrival so I can finish mock up of cold air routing and such. I will definitely have my eyes and ears on what you do since I will be running the same EFI.
Quote: Get some Alex! You and I share alot of the same goals. I ordered the 92MM TB from Mike a week ago and am anxiously awaiting its arrival so I can finish mock up of cold air routing and such. I will definitely have my eyes and ears on what you do since I will be running the same EFI.
I love what this engine family is capable of and I really cant wait.
Mike has been so easy to deal with and the fact that he really knows these cars inside and out makes me happy to give my money to him. I didn't want to spend the money on his TB just yet, so he did me a huge favor and my wiring harness is set up with both connectors so I can move to the S&B or a nickwilliams 92mm with just a plug swap to the LS style IAC.
I was originally sold on the Hotwire system, but I dont have CMR tuning so I didn't want to be handicapped by not being able to fine tune the EFI. Once mike told me that he had a simple harness and he lined out what his box has going for it, I was sold.
Wade has been a really good friend and we've talked all the possibilites the of EFI inside and out. I really hope he isn't keeping tab and billing me for his time lololol
A guide that I've found very helpful for someone in my situation has been the actual mopar performance book for the Drag Pack Challengers.
If you dont start with a core motor, you will have a ton of parts to order from the dealer to get the whole thing together. Very few hardware store bolts will fit this motor, so it's easier to have a complete core motor or a good list of parts.
For all my mopar parts, I've purchase from Matt Deane at Glendora Dodge in California. He has been a great help and even knows the swap like the back of his hand.
He made finding and ordering all of the parts a breeze. My local dealer was no help, and if I needed 6 bolts...they wanted me to buy 12 or whatever their minimum was to keep the items from being absorbed into their inventory. Matt sold me what I need and the service was great.
Man thanks for the parts list! I need that like yesterday, my engine was FAR from complete and I still need water pump bolts and main bolts yet. My dealer is great to deal with and the pricing I get is super.
I've got very early CAP (now qa1) from about 2005. They have threaded rod ends and are really adjustable, but I don't need all that adjustment and they are really more of a drag race option.
I'm going back to stock UCAs with moog k7103 problem solver bushings and AndyF's spindle bushings.
This car is gonna rock! Can't wait. I'm looking forward to watching this car come together!
Quote:
Wade has been a really good friend and we've talked all the possibilites the of EFI inside and out. I really hope he isn't keeping tab and billing me for his time lololol
Ha! Yeah right. Good friends help each other out. Not to mention you played a huge part in getting mine running. Both times! Haha
I'm going to get my intake opened to 90mm and a get a full port on it eventually. Should be good for another 20rwhp with a tune. When I do, I'll buy the S&B from Mike.
The car has been parked since 09! I just need to hear it run. This little cam should really fire off...
Quote: I'm going to get my intake opened to 90mm and a get a full port on it eventually. Should be good for another 20rwhp with a tune. When I do, I'll buy the S&B from Mike.
The car has been parked since 09! I just need to hear it run. This little cam should really fire off...
Sweet sounding Challenger I plan to open mine up on my bench after some machining. Cant wait to hear your RR once its thumping. This video swayed my cam selection decision, hopefully I dont get arrested.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojnNWlEgJfM
Truthfully, I've always wanted an LSX car and admired what they do with small ci motors. Once this motor came around I knew i would have to make it sound like one and make the power.
To me, the 3G Hemi is just an lsx with a better stock head. If you put the short blocks side by side, it's obvious Chrysler just took a good idea and made it better.
Im tired of being jealous of them LS guys, and am doing something about it. I totally agree, an old musclecar with 500+hp that can get 20+mpg is a reality if you put your mind to it.
The fuel injection made it in yesterday. It would have been here faster, but USPS tried to deliver to a business on Saturday. No big deal.
My initial impressions are very good. The build quality of this box is almost on par with an XFI box. Great connectors that give a rewarding pop from vacuum when you disconnect them, heavy gauge wiring with good insulation and quality connectors.
For $1300 this kit far exceeds my expectations. The simple fact that something as capable as MS3 is housed in this box, makes it an unbeatable deal.
Does this system run your fuel injection and the ignition? Also is it fully programmable from a laptop? It looks like a really nice setup. I would be very interested in one if it does all that.
I'll get some good pictures tonight or in the morning.
This runs it all. Fuel and spark. No external modules or extra stuff. It comes with about 15 extra wires for boost control, nitrous etc but none are critical to the n/a functions.
It does, but when you look at the cutting they had to do to the steering box mount, it may not have worked any other way with his combination of components.
I can't speak for his choice of parts, but I like bolt in parts for my car. The ease of install for this motor and the relative ease of the EFI will be great.
By far, the most complex part of the car (I use that term loosely...its not really complex) is the fuel system.
Carter P4601HP for my lift pump. I ran it as a single fuel pump before and it doesn't have a problem pulling fuel from the bottom of the tank.
Feeling into the BCBroncos Fuel Accumulator. This will give me a 1qt reservoir of fuel at all times. This was a big part in making this car effective without a full race fuel tank or a heavily modified stock style tank. Its just a very affordable surge tank, props to wade (uhcoog1) for giving me this idea...
A simple GSL392 Rotary vane inline external fuel pump. Good for 600hp all day long.
A corvette fuel filter/fuel filter regulator. About $27 by wix, and keeps my engine bay clean by leaving all the extra plumbing back there.
This will go up front through my 1/2" stock style fuel lines in stainless. I'm going to be blocking off my return line for now, it's not needed at the moment.
I'll be feeding into a set of stock 6.1 fuel rails. Nothing fancy. Good for 600+ hp. KB retains these for their 2.8L blower kits.
And finally a set of SRT4 stage 1 fuel injectors.
Here is a breakdown of what hemi injectors will do...
Stock 5.7- Bolt ons on a 5.7 Stock 6.1- Maxed out on a head and cam car Stock 6.4- +1 for a head and cam 6.1, not a huge improvement. SRT4 stage 1- Entry level max effort 6.1 and basic 426. Also suitable for stock displacement with a small forced induction build (vortech includes these with entry blower kits) SRT4 stage 2- Built 426 with small nitrous or boost.
Above that, you can get any of the above rebuilt from any number of vendors up until about 1000hp. After that, something like Injector Dynamics ID1000 or ID2000 is needed to have excellent drive ability with that much power.
I forsee my car getting a second GSL392, a forged 6.1 and some sort of forced induction. I've got a Vortech Kit for it, but I really want a Magnuson/Kenne Bell kit..just for the sound really. I'd be happy to lose 100hp over a centrifugal blower for that whine.
Are you planning on going speed density or running a mass air flow sensor? Does the MS3x from them have the map daddy 4 bar sensor? I have MS3X for my chevelle LS swap and the dual map sensor is nice as it can be used to correct for altitude changes by comparing the static one and the engine map sensor. I have heard that the new MS3 Pro uses an external MAP
Good to see another option for our cars. I was just reading up on a kit Mopar Action did an article on a year or so ago. Required the crank to be pulled to install a tone ring. Yikes. However, it allowed the use of GM ECU and all the OBDII diagnostics too...
Now that I see this, I don't know what route I would take.
Quote: Good to see another option for our cars. I was just reading up on a kit Mopar Action did an article on a year or so ago. Required the crank to be pulled to install a tone ring. Yikes. However, it allowed the use of GM ECU and all the OBDII diagnostics too...
Now that I see this, I don't know what route I would take.
The only perk I could see that the Delphi based systems have above this is the tuning aspect. There are so many more tuners out there. That being said, if I didn't want to ever tune it myself....I'd be running a hotwire kit with a factory Mopar ECU, get a Diablo Programmer and have someone knock out a tune via email in 3 shots.
Between the autotune function on this (as well as XFI) along with the megasquirt community online, my choice was easy.
I'm not one of those people to care about having ford or chevy parts on a mopar, but I can't see why someone would spend $2000 to have LS1 stuff on their car when there are better and cheaper options out there...unless you identify with the reasons I stated above.
the datalogging with the ms3 is pretty awesome too which makes tuning that much easier, I'm really impressed with the latest adaptations that have more robust connectors and look more like a "polished" product.
7 in x 7 in and the mounting tabs are sliding to allow staggered placement.
Thanks, that may squeeze in behind the kick panel. I'm gonna have one in a month or so myself.
I wanted to mount it in my glovebox but my car leaks....well...like an old car. I'll end up mounting it in a semi-weather proof container somewhere by the AC box.
I wonder if EFI source would build a system out of the new MS pro? That unit is designed to be able to get wet and mount in the engine compartment. I really like the kit form of MS that has come out. That should make it alot more popular with people
Quote: I wonder if EFI source would build a system out of the new MS pro? That unit is designed to be able to get wet and mount in the engine compartment. I really like the kit form of MS that has come out. That should make it alot more popular with people
The MS3 Pro is over hyped IMHO. It's more expensive and doesn't have the built in coil drivers. Yes, it can get wet but thats about the only upside.
Quote: The 3g Hemi is built around Speed Density. I'll be using a factory sensor in the back of my 6.1 intake.
The ECU will make judgements based on the MAP sensor and the intake air temperature sensor. Here is a breakdown of the features on this box.
Quote: MegaSquirt MS3 Gen3 Hemi Gold Box Standard features
· Controllers are factory configured for your Gen3 Hemi engine
· Start up program factory installed
· USB, RS232 and CAN communication
· Onboard SD card for Data logging
· 8 High Impedance injector drivers
· 8 High current ignition outputs. No additional boxes or coil drivers needed.
· Fuel pump output
· Fan output
· Stepper and PWM Idle Air Control outputs
· 2 Nitrous outputs
· Variable Valve timing output
· 12 volt tach output
· Two Step Input
· 2 Oxygen sensor inputs
· 2 Knock sensor inputs
· Nitrous input
· Data Log switch
· Dual table switch
· 3 additional general purpose inputs (on/off or frequency)
· 1 additional analog input
Does the VVT driver on this properly control the cam phaser on '09 up engines or is it pretty much just fluff? That would make this a very good prospect in that area. If not maybe it could be used for MDS since that functions similar to VVT. Not that I am concerned with that.
I'm not one of those people to care about having ford or chevy parts on a mopar, but I can't see why someone would spend $2000 to have LS1 stuff on their car when there are better and cheaper options out there...unless you identify with the reasons I stated above.
Holy smokes, I didn't know that guy was asking that much for the kit. I was going to call him Monday for pricing info.
Quote: I wonder if EFI source would build a system out of the new MS pro? That unit is designed to be able to get wet and mount in the engine compartment. I really like the kit form of MS that has come out. That should make it alot more popular with people
The MS3 Pro is over hyped IMHO. It's more expensive and doesn't have the built in coil drivers. Yes, it can get wet but thats about the only upside.
I'm not one of those people to care about having ford or chevy parts on a mopar, but I can't see why someone would spend $2000 to have LS1 stuff on their car when there are better and cheaper options out there...unless you identify with the reasons I stated above.
Holy smokes, I didn't know that guy was asking that much for the kit. I was going to call him Monday for pricing info.
I don't feel that using a factory ecu and designing a reluctor wheel justifies that price. Just my .02.
Does the VVT driver on this properly control the cam phaser on '09 up engines or is it pretty much just fluff? That would make this a very good prospect in that area. If not maybe it could be used for MDS since that functions similar to VVT. Not that I am concerned with that.
The box has the capability to control VVT, etc, but AFAIK, no one has done that or even tried to with a Hemi yet.
Quote: I've been dying to update progress on my swap from a Big block to a 3G Hemi.
I had a perfectly fine running 69 HP 383 with 915HP heads, a DP4B/650DP, HP Manfiolds and a 4 speed with 3.23's. I drove it like that for about 1000 miles and it bored me. The combo that I thought I wanted and I'd always dreamed about. I didn't like it for the type of driving that I do.
So, I pulled the 383 and parted all my big block stuff on Craigslist and on here. Sold all of it for a fair price and decided that it was time for a new hemi. I was just upset with bent pullies, leaky valve covers and general old car quirks.
I worked from 2006-10 for a shop that worked on and modified the LX Hemi cars, so I know my way around them quite well. I fell in love with the powerplant in a 4700lb station wagon, so my 3600 lb B-body would be ridiculous fast with just a simple head and cam 6.1. I started with just a bare 6.1 block. Literally nothing else at first. I knew about what I wanted, and I had really big dreams at first. I was looking to build a motor that would compliment all the handling stuff that I've done to the car.
-1.24" T bars -Koni Red Shocks -AndyF's LCA plates -Tubular UCA's (Coming off now...) -New bushings and Poly where I could -Firm Feel Firmer than stage 3 box from Dick -11.75" with Firm Feel Carbon Metallic Pads
I ran without sway bars, so a set of fresh leaf springs and F&R Hotchkis or Hellwig sway bars are about all I need to complete the suspension to where it needs to be. All of the above made the car feel amazing, even in it's incomplete state.
I started my motor build parts gathering a few years ago and it all started with a $300 6.1 block that I was going to build a 426 or forged 6.1 out of. I quickly realized that I didn't need that much motor, so after some horsetrading with my friend uhcoog1 (wade) I ended up with a stock bore 6.1 in great shape. I picked up a stock set of 6.1 rods and pistons and started my process of building up a mostly stock 6.1 shortblock. Nothing fancy except for a set of stock rings opened up a little bit to keep the pistons from breaking the ring lands (a common 6.1 issue). Otherwise, the whole motor is stock spec with no after market parts aside from the valve springs (PAC) and the Comp Camshaft.
Here is the motor buid
4.055x3.580 6.1 Stock pistons/new rings Stock Powdered metal rods with new Chrysler rod bolts (Same as 8.4 viper) King Bearings Stock 6.1 Timing set and tensioner Melling Oil pump Jeep SRT8 Oil Filter Adapter Frank Racing 219/231 .585/.585 112LSA GTP ported 5.7 2009+ Eagle Cylinder heads with PAC 1220 Springs. These are a closed chamber heads and will net 11:1 CR with my stock shortblock. More than do-able with 93 octane all day long Stock 6.1 Intake Manifold with BBK 80mm tb SRT4 Stage 1 43lb injectors Stock 6.1 fuel rail TTI 1 3/4 Headers to a 2.5" H pipe system with turbo mufflers Lakewood Bellhousing from a SB MP/Mcleod Hemi 10.5 Conversion Flywheel Sachs Diaphragm 10.5 stock clutch TTI Motor mount brackets with a solid and rubber mount on either side Mildon Oil Convesion oil pan
It's a bit scary to me how stock and simple this motor is. Nothing fancy at all.
I've just purchased the Megasquirt MS3X kit from Mike @ www.efisource.com as of yesterday and I'm really looking forward to running his system. It is the first kit to come out for a 3g hemi that is a refined harness that is based on megasquirt.
The electronics portion of this build will be a copy of the fuel system that uhcoog1 has on his road race duster. So simple yet it more than makes up for the fact that I'm still running a stock fuel tank. If he can't run out of fuel on a roadcourse, then anyone on here will be fine.
My fuel system will be the following Carter 4601HP pump (ran both my 383 and 440 with a carb previously) BCBroncos Accumulator to act as a resivour/surge tank. Walbro GSL392 Inline pump Corvette Fuel/Filter Regulator by Wix.
The car already had 1/2" feed and return lines in stainless with a 1/2" stock style pick up that I added a 1/2" return to, so my fuel system is ready for whatever I can throw at it with just a pump change.
Over the next few weeks I'm going to detail my engine build and install for everyone to see.
I'd like to eventually do up a website to help inform people about the process of putting this new style of motor into a classic mopar. I had a cardomain website a long time ago, and I'd like to do it one better.
The goal for me is to have a fair weather daily driver that I can hop in and knock out 300 mile day trip while maintaining above average fuel mileage, not smelling like fuel (its a real problem), being able smile from the speed and being able to have a road course worthy classic Mopar.
Here are some already shown pics of my car...
So far, I'm most of the way there.
So us the money for the controller and the fuel system !
Does the VVT driver on this properly control the cam phaser on '09 up engines or is it pretty much just fluff? That would make this a very good prospect in that area. If not maybe it could be used for MDS since that functions similar to VVT. Not that I am concerned with that.
The box has the capability to control VVT, etc, but AFAIK, no one has done that or even tried to with a Hemi yet.
same with the knock control...
What wade said.
Just because it is there, doesn't mean it is compatible with the hemi...yet. There are always expansions looming over the horizon.
And I'm less than $1500 for EFI and fuel system.
The fact that gets me everytime is when someone says they want to save money by going carb on a motor like this.
Even if you have nice carb, the MSD ignition controller is still $800 and then you may or may not have to do anything with your fuel system.
Not knocking the system at all. I was just surprised to see it listed on the HEMI specific box as I hadn't heard that anyone figured it out. I hope someone figures it out before I am to that point. I was leaning towards the LS comp only for the fact that if I am 2000 miles away from home and new one is just a junkyard away and a flash from the laptop.
Quote: Not knocking the system at all. I was just surprised to see it listed on the HEMI specific box as I hadn't heard that anyone figured it out. I hope someone figures it out before I am to that point. I was leaning towards the LS comp only for the fact that if I am 2000 miles away from home and new one is just a junkyard away and a flash from the laptop.
My friend shorted his MS3 box by accident and he had it turned around in about a week with the repair.
You've got a valid point, but I wonder if the ECU they sell for the LS is flashed to be open source and includes softare to tune yourself, or if you still need HP Tuners or EFILive to change things.
I wouldn't consider an ECU from a wrecking yard - if the car was in any accident, the ECU will be locked in limp mode, which in our case required a replacement. HP tuner software can't reset it
Quote: I wouldn't consider an ECU from a wrecking yard - if the car was in any accident, the ECU will be locked in limp mode, which in our case required a replacement. HP tuner software can't reset it
Strange.
We've done several Hemi cars and none of them required ECU replacement. Perhaps yours took a different kind of hit.
Quote: I wouldn't consider an ECU from a wrecking yard - if the car was in any accident, the ECU will be locked in limp mode, which in our case required a replacement. HP tuner software can't reset it
Strange.
We've done several Hemi cars and none of them required ECU replacement. Perhaps yours took a different kind of hit.
He is reffering to the LS1 Delphi based EFI kit that Nutter Racing is offering for the 3G Hemi Swap.
I've had static kill one Hemi Ecu, but that was completely the installers fault. Got a good zap and killed the logic that was flashed.
Quote: I wouldn't consider an ECU from a wrecking yard - if the car was in any accident, the ECU will be locked in limp mode, which in our case required a replacement. HP tuner software can't reset it
Strange.
We've done several Hemi cars and none of them required ECU replacement. Perhaps yours took a different kind of hit.
He is reffering to the LS1 Delphi based EFI kit that Nutter Racing is offering for the 3G Hemi Swap.
I've had static kill one Hemi Ecu, but that was completely the installers fault. Got a good zap and killed the logic that was flashed.
I'm going to reuse my C-body 440 auto radiator. I purchased a 17" Ford Thunderbird electric fan by Dorman 620-118 for $56 on eBay. It was brand new and only a step down from the Lincoln MK8 fans in terms of CFM. The MK8 is 1500 low and 2700 high. This will be more than enough, and the megasquirt will be controlling it. No need for any external boxes.
Also, I hate my taxi cab dash. It's never worked and when I went with Painless wiring in the car I never even bothered hooking it up. I was about to wire a bunch of auxillary gauges to keep tabs on things, but I'm not doing that any longer.
I'm going to use Shadow Dash MS for my temp, pressure, voltage, rpm, warning lights and Speedo. All of which will show off of my MS3 box. I might be able to get my fuel sending unit to be read by the MS3 box. I'm just going to make a nice magnetic mount for the Android Device of my choice (Nexus 7 most likely) and use that for the near future. If I leave the car unattended, I'll hide it or put it in my pocket.
Here are a few shots of my cylinder heads. They are the 09+ 5.7 heads "Eagles". They are a closed chamber head, with a 6.1 style exhaust port and near 6.1 sized intake port. These will be a perfect match to my 6.1 intake.
Remind me what spring you've got? And ya'll had to shim it? stock valves, yes? What are the valve sizes? I forget.
Quote:
The Eagle Hemi cylinder head arrived in 2009 with VVT on non-SRT Dodge passenger cars and trucks. As with the early head, the Eagle uses rocker shafts and 1.65:1 ratio rockers, but there are big differences in the size and shape of the intake port and the rest of the valvetrain. The Eagle uses 2.05-inch intake and 1.55-inch exhaust valves that are not only larger, they are also longer than standard. The rocker support is taller, and the valve-guide support boss sits higher on the top side of the head, moving it out of the intake port. The Eagle uses a larger square port like the 6.1L that flows a massive 331 cfm right out of the box.
*Flow testing performed by Dave Weber at Modern Muscle Performance using a 4.060 bore plate, no exhaust flow pipe on a Superflow 1020 flow bench at 28 inches test depression
I'm getting my engine back shortly. It took forever, but it was a really cheap job done by a friend and I was very slow about pushing.
I'll have a refreshed 6.1 shortblock ready for mockup on a stand shortly. Everything is ready minus the inevitable few missing bolts here and there. I feel that I can have a dressed longblock within about two weeks.
I'm getting my engine back shortly. It took forever, but it was a really cheap job done by a friend and I was very slow about pushing.
I'll have a refreshed 6.1 shortblock ready for mockup on a stand shortly. Everything is ready minus the inevitable few missing bolts here and there. I feel that I can have a dressed longblock within about two weeks.
Quote: Also, I hate my taxi cab dash. It's never worked and when I went with Painless wiring in the car I never even bothered hooking it up. I was about to wire a bunch of auxillary gauges to keep tabs on things, but I'm not doing that any longer.
Dakota Digital has come out with a very nice 68-70 Charger/70 Road Runner unit that you might look at. Priced around a grand, its the same price you'd pay to restore a stock unit but comes with all new guts and multiple system input capability.
Quote: Also, I hate my taxi cab dash. It's never worked and when I went with Painless wiring in the car I never even bothered hooking it up. I was about to wire a bunch of auxillary gauges to keep tabs on things, but I'm not doing that any longer.
Dakota Digital has come out with a very nice 68-70 Charger/70 Road Runner unit that you might look at. Priced around a grand, its the same price you'd pay to restore a stock unit but comes with all new guts and multiple system input capability.
That's pretty cool! I think this will be getting ordered next week. I was in the middle of customizing a panel to put gauges in, but there is something to be said if you leave the dash looking clean and original.
Quote: Also, I hate my taxi cab dash. It's never worked and when I went with Painless wiring in the car I never even bothered hooking it up. I was about to wire a bunch of auxillary gauges to keep tabs on things, but I'm not doing that any longer.
Dakota Digital has come out with a very nice 68-70 Charger/70 Road Runner unit that you might look at. Priced around a grand, its the same price you'd pay to restore a stock unit but comes with all new guts and multiple system input capability.
I really like that...finally something worth cutting up my dash over!
On a slightly less than ideal note, my crankshaft tone ring is a no-go. Time to find another one in a hurry. Thanks to Mike @ OST dyno for rushing to help me out...but time to keep looking.
Most people pull apart 6.1 hemis and add a 4.080 crank to make a 426. Up until just recently, you had to carry over your crank toner ring from the forged 6.1 crank and put it on the new stroker piece. That leaves a 6.1 crank without a ring or bolts, and basically creates a paperweight.
So I had several 6.1 cranks to pick from and the one that I ended up sending out to use on by 6.1 was missing a ring. I thought no big deal...I've got others. Well none of my cranks had the ring. So I was up a creek come last thursday. Engine was ready to be assembled and we couldn't do a thing without it. I started calling...
13 calls later, I ended up with only two helpful people. Mike @ OST who took my call on Saturday and was very helpful. He went to his shop on a sunday and pulled a ring from a 6.1 crank. Unfortunately it was damaged and the teeth were dinged up. No go, the only way to replace the ring is to pull the crank and I couldn't take that risk. He was more than polite, and we parted ways.
The other shining star is Tom Molnar of Molnar Cranks. Top notch guy. He is the ONLY vendor out of 5 that I left a message with to return my call. The owner of the company of all people. We had a long conversation and he sold me his aftermarket ring to use. $60 plus shipping and I was very happy. He saw the problem created by mopar wanting to sell you the ring as part of a $800 crankshaft (only specific to forged 6.1 cranks) and adapted his own version. Its on the way here now.
So if you end up like me with a damaged or lost tone ring, you're not out of luck.
Molnar sells a 24 tooth 6.1 ring that they produce in house. Only difference is that is use a different style of head on the bolt.
I've also just recently found that mopar sells a bunch of parts for the drag packs. Mopar PN P5155041 I cant confirm that it comes with bolts, but if Molnar didn't have what I needed, I'd order this one.
My Manley 4.05 crank came with reluctor wheel installed. So I do have a 6.1 crank AND ring still married. I would've sold the whole shebang to ya though.
Quote: My Manley 4.05 crank came with reluctor wheel installed. So I do have a 6.1 crank AND ring still married. I would've sold the whole shebang to ya though.
Out of curiosity, how well did the Manley crank balance out?
DOnt know yet, been waiting on Andy for 2 months to get my rings....word on the street though is that they balance really good with everything else being Manley as well.
He was busier than a 3 pecker'd Billygoat. He was like 23 engines behind at one point. That and when I ordered them his computer was down so I paypal'd him through his in-laws account and it got lost in the shuffle and his wife didnt even know about it until about 2 weeks ago. I'm over it.
-Chamber size went from 65 to 68 cc with the polished chambers -I should have about .030-.040 quench based on the fact that this is a zero deck motor. -11.2:1 static, 9.0:1 Dynamic compression. -Based on what the cylinder head builder thinks 1.5hp/ci is possible. So maybe about 550crank hp. No telling what it will actually do. I've see 450rwhp from a similar build with less compression, cam and an auto transmission. I've got more going for me in regards to all of that.
The only change I see coming is a gasket match on the intake manifold and basic clean up of casting imperfections. I'll open it up for a 90-92mm throttle body at the same time.
This weekend, my good friend uhcoog1 (wade) is going to let me dress the motor at his place. We should have it ready to drop into the chassis in about a week or two.
can't wait to hear some more feedback on the MS unit. My dad is doing a 69 GTX and wants to go new hemi. I can't see paying $2600 for a harness and ecu. So I think we are going MS
The crankcase once I realized that the oil pump stud was in the wrong place. Thankfully my engine builder was nice enough to answer my call on a Saturday!
That's the milodon peice for the dipstick and it's just the normal pan. 7 quarts? Weve determined that the road race pan probably isn't needed for what I want to do, even with sticky tires.
Quote: That's the milodon peice for the dipstick and it's just the normal pan. 7 quarts? Weve determined that the road race pan probably isn't needed for what I want to do, even with sticky tires.
31000 listed as 6 quart. I run up to 7-ish. I log oil pressures and haven't had an oil pressure drop.
RobbMC alignment dowels Valve cover bolts Mds plugs and bolts Bolt for idler pulley Idler pulley Thermostat gasket Crank sensor
Once all of that is on, all we need to do is clearance my my oil filter adapter, bell housing and motor mounts (Minor grinding on all) and i can set it in the car. It will be weather tight and ready for the transmission.
That reminds me, I need to cut the input shaft a bit lol.
Today we notched the bell housing for the headers and indexed the bellhousing. Got it down to .0035. That's a fantastic runout number, and I'm expecting to avoid future transmission problems because of this little bit of effort.
-My bellhousing alignment dowels pulled out with the block plate. They say that they need 7 ft lb., but clearly I didn't get that much (they were tight...)
-Accessory drive is almost done, just need to add the balancer and PS pump. It was a heck of a time finding the right idler pulley bolt.
-I ground on the mount for the ps side engine mount. I also found my Moroso Solid Mount for the drivers side. No mods needed.
-I bought radiator hoses and they're going to work out pretty well.
Upper radiator hose for passenger side neck: Dayco C72282 - ID of 1.44 and 1.72 (for a 2006 Dodge Charger 5.7 hemi)
Lower radiator hose for drivers side neck: Dayco E72281 - 1.44 & 1.66 ID (I measured this one in the store- the water pump side was ~1.5" I think, and the radiator side was smaller) - this is for a 5.7 dodge charger
Thanks to wade for his FABO post on radiator hoses.
It fits well. It took some fighting on the biscuit mounts and a little clearancing of the moroso solid mount, but it all fits without issue.
Next up, try and slide the headers in from underneath, bolt on the 6.1 intake and add the oil filter adapter. It will be sealed and I can move onto the fuel system mounting of the additional pump and accumulator.
I have to say, it is a really good looking motor for this car.
A huge thanks to Wade (uhcoog1) for helping me drop it in and being a confidant for all of my tough hotroding decisions lol.
I'm trying to not break parts and keep this as a low maitnence motor. I didn't have the money for mity mounts or poly locks, but I had one of these mounts left over from the big block stuff. I figured 500hp and a 4 speed might tear up a few things.
I am running a solid driver side/rubber pass side on my 6.1 and also ran the same style on my BB for about 14 years. All the alternatives "ACT" just like a solid mount anyway.
Headers are in. They're 90% of a perfect fit to the car. They will need denting on the passengers side header with my 1.22" t bars, which I should have expected. If I had a 1.0" ish tb, this wouldn't be a problem.
Both headers snaked in from the bottom without issue. I didn't even have the car very high up at all. I elected to not use the TTI gaskets, instead I picked the composite 6.1 factory gasket.
It was surprising to see the AC compressor and steering box not hit on the drivers side. The notch that I made was more than enough on the k frame.
I will have to pull the headers to make small adjustments, but nothing serious.
As it sits now. I've got the intake on there only to keep dirt and critters out of the motor.
I did not see it mentioned, but are you using the front cover/accessory drive stuff (other than the oil filter adapter) from an LX/LC platform car? It looks like it, but I wanted to be sure.
No. I still havent pulled the headers back out, but I did mount my throttle body and tidy up the top end. I'm still working parts to figure out what I'm missing.
I've said it to myself many times, but I must admit...I'm not happy to ding headers. Not even a little bit. But, unfortunately I had to with these TTI's. Mind you, I don't feel that I did the best job that I could beating these (I really should have used a ball peen hammer).
The T-bars hit my passengers side collector severely. I thought that it was the fact that I have 1.22" bars, but there was over a half inch of interference.
Thats the top of the DS header where it passes under the T-bar.
The next area that hit was the #1 tube passing by the AC compressor. If I didn't have AC in mind, this wouldn't be an issue. I had to trim the AC compressor from the start as per 808cuda's post, but I also had to ding it to fit.
I'll give the benefit of the doubt because these headers are from 2007 and weren't used until now. I don't know what changes have been made to the jig. I will say that TTI does have amazing customer service and I wouldn't use any other header for this swap. I have no doubt that Dougs is lightyears behind TTI. I talked to them on the phone and I wasn't impressed.
Right now, they're in and they clear everything. I'm going to make one final change to the headers to make them fit a little better, which will be adding V-band connections to the collector to gain ground clearance. My car is silly low and I don't want those 3 bolt flanges catching on everything. Other than that, they will work well and support a ton of power. For a mild steel header, they are beefy where it counts and are very well coated. I'd be willing to pay double the price for them to be a low grade stainless though.
I'm progressing on my build. I'm ready to leave the front of the car and start ordering fuel system components. The front end is sealed and ready to sit for a while. The engine is sealed from TB to headers. I know it will take me more than one try to get my fittings ordered from Summit.
My lower radiator hose is from a 5.7 Magnum. Aside from being trimmed a little on the ends, it ends up in almost a perfect spot and tops right at the bottom of my C-body radiator.
The only reason I can't run it as-is unfortunately is that my lower radiator outlet is 1.75" versus all my other connections, which are 1.5".
I'm going to run the silicone adapter to go back to 1.5" on the radiator and cut the bend to add a prettier turn on the factory lower hose (like a splice and a turn in one shot).
My Thunderbird radiator fan is a pretty decent fit also. I'm going to need to make some small aluminum L-brackets to use the factory attachment points on the radiator as support and cut the shroud a bit to bring it closer in.
I also started adding my Z-bar. I'm really happy everything is clearing the headers at this point. This will make the install that much easier. I was budgeting for a Hyrdraulic set up to be needed, but the SB Lakewood/TTI's are existing well together.
I'll take some pictures tomorrow. It's looking to be a pretty tidy engine bay.
I don't know by part number, but I know by application.
The alternator is a re-manned 05-08 5.7 car unit and my ps pump is an 03-08 5.7 car.
I'll use an external reservoir on the PS pump. Just factory stuff mounted to the fender. The easy thing to do would be to get a Jeep SRT8 Powersteering pump, with the built in reservoir...but I've not come across one for thr right price yet.
Quote: Cool! So 2008 5.7 stuff will work on a 6.4? Good to know! I'm a newb when it comes to Gen III stuff haha!
No, you've got to be careful about the break downs.
Here it is in a nutshell:
Early style
03-08 Truck 5.7 05-08 Car 5.7 06-09 Car 6.1
Late (Eagle and apache)
09+ Car 5.7 09+ Truck 5.7 10+ Car 6.4 10+ Truck 6.4
You can't swap the timing covers between early and late (not that I know..)
You need to center your build around the timing cover. If you want a 6.4 then you need to source all the accessories for that. The biggest degree of interchangeability is in the cylinder heads and intakes.
If I was going to put a stock motor in one, it would be a factory stock 6.4 with just a cam and lockout kit plus a 6.1 intake manifold.
If you're talking about an early 5.7/6.1 392 stroker, that's a different animal. You buy parts based on the block/timing cover.
I started with the 6.1 due to circumstance and luck, I had to build the whole thing up by each nut and bolt. I don't advise that for anyone, it's really not cost effective. I would have been farther ahead just buying a broken 5.7 early motor from a car and pulling all the odds and ends off of that.
Quote: Also, I hate my taxi cab dash. It's never worked and when I went with Painless wiring in the car I never even bothered hooking it up. I was about to wire a bunch of auxillary gauges to keep tabs on things, but I'm not doing that any longer.
I'm going to use Shadow Dash MS for my temp, pressure, voltage, rpm, warning lights and Speedo. All of which will show off of my MS3 box. I might be able to get my fuel sending unit to be read by the MS3 box. I'm just going to make a nice magnetic mount for the Android Device of my choice (Nexus 7 most likely) and use that for the near future. If I leave the car unattended, I'll hide it or put it in my pocket.
I tried the tin Milodon pan with the factory gasket..ended up with leaks - ended up combining the factory gasket with the milodon cork gasket and it sealed like Fort Knox....
This was after I had to drop the cross member to remove the pan...
Check your pinion angle with those TTI mounts as well......
Quote: I'll give the benefit of the doubt because these headers are from 2007 and weren't used until now. I don't know what changes have been made to the jig. I will say that TTI does have amazing customer service and I wouldn't use any other header for this swap. I have no doubt that Dougs is lightyears behind TTI. I talked to them on the phone and I wasn't impressed.
My 2" are from 2012 and they hit everything. Called TTI, no changes, "they should clear the starter by 1/2"... not even close. Wouldn't clear the T Bars, hit a bunch of other stuff... junk.
Honestly, their customer service is nice on the phone, but offers to correct nothing. I'm pretty much fed up with them. The headers don't even come close to fitting, the motor mounts didn't even come close to fitting, why even sell the stuff? On top of that, why does everyone keep defending them?
As far as I'm concerned, for Gen 3 Hemi swaps, TTI and Milodon can fall off the face of the earth and we would be just fine.
I tried the tin Milodon pan with the factory gasket..ended up with leaks - ended up combining the factory gasket with the milodon cork gasket and it sealed like Fort Knox....
This was after I had to drop the cross member to remove the pan...
Check your pinion angle with those TTI mounts as well......
Just a heads up.
I've sealed 3 pans the same way. Two of those times we even reused the same gasket. It never leaked. The idea of using those cork gaskets made me cringe. I used a few dabs of the Mopar brand RTV in the same spots on my pan, and I really don't expect to have any issues.
Quote: My 2" are from 2012 and they hit everything. Called TTI, no changes, "they should clear the starter by 1/2"... not even close. Wouldn't clear the T Bars, hit a bunch of other stuff... junk.
Honestly, their customer service is nice on the phone, but offers to correct nothing. I'm pretty much fed up with them. The headers don't even come close to fitting, the motor mounts didn't even come close to fitting, why even sell the stuff? On top of that, why does everyone keep defending them?
As far as I'm concerned, for Gen 3 Hemi swaps, TTI and Milodon can fall off the face of the earth and we would be just fine.
I am not defending TTI, I have never bought any of their stuff but I know they recently came out with a revised set of headers for A bodies with Borgeson boxes part# 61WP.
As far as headers not fitting, maybe it is a combination of header primary size, torsion bar size, body style and how more or less crappy your chassis was welded up 40 years ago? Other than TTI headers or Milodon for the pan what other options is there besides custom $,$$$.$$?
Their mounts suck, and that in turn makes the headers fit like dog doo. Milodon gouged us Mopar guys pretty bad, and by the way my pickup tube is back ordered until the 17th. That should give them enough time to make one that fits.
I have the 61WP headers in my car, and recommend them to those that want power steering with an a body. The fit is so tight you're going to need fitting (aka- Hammer).
You can run the 5.7 truck gasket with the milodon pan. The first time I installed it there was a leak - the gasket ribbing doesn't line up with the pan in the front corners. The second and third time a little mopar brand rtv solved the issue.
Quote: I am not defending TTI, I have never bought any of their stuff but I know they recently came out with a revised set of headers for A bodies with Borgeson boxes part# 61WP.
That is great if you run a 6.1. Called them, can you make a set for 6.4... nope, no plans to do that.
Can you weld on a 6.4 flange to a set of 1 3/4" 5.7 headers so I can possibly pick up some area where your 2" hit everything... nope.
Quote: As far as headers not fitting, maybe it is a combination of header primary size, torsion bar size, body style and how more or less crappy your chassis was welded up 40 years ago? Other than TTI headers or Milodon for the pan what other options is there besides custom $,$$$.$$?
If a stock K member still bolts on without any problems, I don't think Chrysler build quality is an issue. When you put on exactly what they tell you for a starter and the tube still doesn't even come close to clearing, their build quality is the problem.
At this point for me, custom would have been cheaper. The amount of time I have into the trial and error fitting with Milodon and TTI is beyond ridiculous. Ended up with custom mounts, custom dented/massaged headers and a custom oil pickup. Gee, thanks so much for the well engineered and designed parts... not.
Quote: I am not defending TTI, I have never bought any of their stuff but I know they recently came out with a revised set of headers for A bodies with Borgeson boxes part# 61WP.
That is great if you run a 6.1. Called them, can you make a set for 6.4... nope, no plans to do that.
Can you weld on a 6.4 flange to a set of 1 3/4" 5.7 headers so I can possibly pick up some area where your 2" hit everything... nope.
It sounds like it's all behind you now, but 6.1 headers work fine on a 6.4.
Edit to add: flanges and ports mount up fine. Don't know block and mounts, though.
Quote: I don't know by part number, but I know by application.
The alternator is a re-manned 05-08 5.7 car unit and my ps pump is an 03-08 5.7 car.
I'll use an external reservoir on the PS pump. Just factory stuff mounted to the fender. The easy thing to do would be to get a Jeep SRT8 Powersteering pump, with the built in reservoir...but I've not come across one for thr right price yet.
Alex,
Did you check the pressure output of the PS pump against the steering gear you are using?
Quote: No. Now that you mention it, I did hear about people saying that early on.
I'm using a firm feel stage 4 box. I probably should call them up.
You're going to have a problem. You need to back off the pressure at the pump. Modern systems can run well over 1600 psi but some of the old gear boxes are only set up for half of that.
Quote: I did not have a problem in the ~1500 miles I ran the factory box with the Hemi pump. Quite a few guys do it.
The 'on paper' concern has been discussed. However I do not recall hearing of anyone who had an issue with it. Maybe someone will chime in?
Emil runs a lower pressure pump from a different application. Should be a good alternative.
Keisler's Cuda had a 6.1 pump with a Firm Feel box. It spit out at least 2 pumps and at least 1 box started leaking. He probably put 10k+ miles on it, so it sounds like it might take some time to see the problems
GM type II, Saginaw TC and the newer Mopar stuff all seem to be the same pump to me just different reservoir. Look at a 99-04 Jeep WJ Grand Cherokee pump, same pump but slightly different reservoir angle. The LX guys are blowing up the stock pumps on SRT8's when they push them on road courses too. Their solution is a Viper pulley swap kit.
Will you need spacers due to the offset or because of the center register?
A guy in my club put Moosthang wheels on his Dart. The offset was okay but he needed the center register corrected. It took longer to put the rotor in the lathe than it did to make the change.
I think he might have been using a bolt on spacer. I can't remember.
The center is too small of an OD to fit over my hub and I need to move the fronts out about 1/2" and the rears about 5/8".
I've grown to accept quality wheel adapters. After seeing 100 lb wheel and tire combos be held on just find by them in the 4x4 world and people flog their cars while having random oddball adapters made for the vw's...I can live with some small spacers or bolt on adapters for the time being.
I think what was meant was spacers on 4x4 wheels at 100lbs holding on. I hope someone out there can show us how to modify our existing ps pump to lower the pressure. Richard E where are you?? DIY please.
No updates as of right now. Working 60+ hours a week is beating me up and it's raining a lot over here recently. Updates as soon as conditions get better.
Quote: Putting aside the choices you made on wheels, EFI and suspension.....
It seems that the problems you encountered are pretty much the same as with an A body...
TTI mounts Header clearance Power steer pump compatability and sourcing the sundry bolts and pulleys etc.
Have you measured your pinion angle....or did that improve with the mods to the engine mounts?
TTI mounts were not an issue. My issue was with the $5 parts house engine insulator having a raised nub on it. If I would have taken if off with the grinder before hand, it wouldn't have been an issue. It literally took 5 mins of persuasion to have it sit in the chassis.
Header clearance would have been better if I didn't have ac and if my torsion bars were stock. I've got 1.22" bars and if they were .920" they would have cleared.
PS pump is just a fact. If I had a borgeson box or a lower psi pump it wouldn't be a problem.
I'd advocate Everyone to not start with s bare block like I did. Buy an 05/08 car 5.7 long block and steal everything from that.
I did this backwards from most, but I've still got less money than most in my build. Mostly from working with people in the industry for almost ten years and having a few friends who own shops. My heads are $3000+ but I've not got that much money in them.
I won't paint a small picture with a large brush. This swap is not difficult and I don't even have a garage. It's just as I can do it without breaking the bank.
Quote: Reason I asked is I missunderstood your earlier comment about the biscuit mount.
So did u use the TTI adapter mount brackets?. -,most everyone who uses them has had grief......
I used TTI mounting brackets with a stock biscuit rubber mount on the passengers side and a solid Moroso mount on the drivers side. I was fortunate and they didn't cause me any issues.
I had my engine on the hoist and bolted in the chassis in under 30 mins.
Quote: Reason I asked is I missunderstood your earlier comment about the biscuit mount.
So did u use the TTI adapter mount brackets?. -,most everyone who uses them has had grief......
I used TTI mounting brackets with a stock biscuit rubber mount on the passengers side and a solid Moroso mount on the drivers side. I was fortunate and they didn't cause me any issues.
I had my engine on the hoist and bolted in the chassis in under 30 mins.
Makes me wonder if the adapters were configured on a B Body K frame....that might account for why the A Body guys have issues...
Quote: Reason I asked is I missunderstood your earlier comment about the biscuit mount.
So did u use the TTI adapter mount brackets?. -,most everyone who uses them has had grief......
I used TTI mounting brackets with a stock biscuit rubber mount on the passengers side and a solid Moroso mount on the drivers side. I was fortunate and they didn't cause me any issues.
I had my engine on the hoist and bolted in the chassis in under 30 mins.
Makes me wonder if the adapters were configured on a B Body K frame....that might account for why the A Body guys have issues...
Entirely different part numbers.
Please stop trying to make every 3rd gen Hemi thread about your grievance against TTI. They're the best we've got. Instead of complaining about their product, start sharing information on how to make their products work, because they do for about 90% of the guys doing the swap (sorry Mal and Kevin- I know y'all both had nearly insurmountable issues).
That's some pretty unfair accusations Wade...and if its because you're trying to keep the thread OT....its NOT the way to do it.
I don't want to ruin this thread....but think on this:
1......I didnt use TTI headers so why should I care
2.... The "other thread" was all about conversion issues.....so where's the crime?
3. .....My comment on this post is all about research...not bagging out TTI..so be cool!
Just trying to find out why they work for some and not others.
I noted that Alex didn't use the TTI drivers side adapter.....perhaps if he had...we could have discussed it further....
What DOES get my back up is the sense of disbelief I get whenever I post about the damn mounts.....there seems to be a bit of "It didn't happen to me.... so it doesn't happen" bs attitude going on......
Quote: That's the milodon peice for the dipstick and it's just the normal pan. 7 quarts? Weve determined that the road race pan probably isn't needed for what I want to do, even with sticky tires.
31000 listed as 6 quart. I run up to 7-ish. I log oil pressures and haven't had an oil pressure drop.
The 31003 RR pan is listed as 7 quart.
Moving on ....
What do you spin yours up to Wade...I'm wondering if mine will be OK to 7100 without an accumulator......
Quote: That's the milodon peice for the dipstick and it's just the normal pan. 7 quarts? Weve determined that the road race pan probably isn't needed for what I want to do, even with sticky tires.
31000 listed as 6 quart. I run up to 7-ish. I log oil pressures and haven't had an oil pressure drop.
The 31003 RR pan is listed as 7 quart.
Moving on ....
What do you spin yours up to Wade...I'm wondering if mine will be OK to 7100 without an accumulator......
I spun the forged 5.7 to 7,000+. With accumulator. 10+ seconds at 7,000+ WOT.
I didn't spin the 6.1 over 6500. That was being overly cautious.
I would recommend an accumulator. Cheap insurance. Hemi Joe ran his dry early on at the track if I remember correctly- in the 7500 rpm range maybe?
The modern Mopar thread we had on oiling had more info on the subject, including that the drag pak guys run 11.5 quarts between their pan (8 qt) and accumulator (3 qt). Without the accumulator they were running dry at high rpm. With the accumulator they're turning 8,300-8,500.
Mal, I'm using the TTI motor mounts. I'm also using the factory style insulators, but one side is a Moroso solid mount. That is the the only exception.
That has nothing to do wth the Hemi. I would use the same factory insilator and Moroso mount with any SB or BB
Quote: Mal, I'm using the TTI motor mounts. I'm also using the factory style insulators, but one side is a Moroso solid mount. That is the the only exception.
That has nothing to do wth the Hemi. I would use the same factory insilator and Moroso mount with any SB or BB
Mal,
Please look at both of these pictures.
The first one shows a factory rubber insulator mount with the "nub" on it. That's what caused me grief on the passengers side. You can clearly see it attached to the black TTI plate.
On the drivers side, take note of the silver mount with the pass through bolt holes. That is a solid Moroso mount that fits SB/BB for this style of engine mount. It was my alternative to running expensive engine mounts. It did not impair my install at all.
The TTI mounts are excellent in my opinion. For my application they were as good or better than my factory BB pieces.
Quote: This thread is very inspiring. Too bad I'm in the middle of a stroker build.
Just have a stock 18 spline transmission going in? I searched the thread, but didn't see that info.
I'm going to run a 23 spline for now. I don't feel that I will break the trans, because I purposely put a basic clutch in. It's going to be a hard 1000 miles to break the car in...no WOT, downshifts...man.
T56 or a Passon 5 speed will be a hard choice later.
Lifters supplied by Sharandon that my mate converted to a solid by removing the plunger..gauging the plunger depth and inserting a shim instead of the spring.
We re-used the compressed head gasket that was taken from the un-started motor.
Cam was ground on a 110 lsa at Stu from Inertias suggestion - still not sure if that was a smart thing to do....
Cam was degreed and went in at 114. You know the rest on that score.....
P-V was .068th on the intake side, .124th exhaust.
Il say it again - the p-v I can live with....but the ICL these install at is not friendly to carb induction.
Id be VERY interested in hearing what Alex cam actually installed at..... Or did you degree it already with a multi keyway?
I did some odds and ends today. I got my z-bar properly installed, linkage spring in place for clutch fork, and I need to get the linkage to the pedals back in with the right boot. I also installed the catch can by Billet Tech (a must for any hemi, or a Pan evac)
I fixed my torsion bars kinda, but the CAP Tubular UCA's need to go. Too much adjustment for my tastes. Factory Uppers with the Problem solver bushings will keep me going for a while. I need to play with ride height once the new wheel and tire combo is in. It seems too low, but I've driven stupid low cars daily...doesn't scare me but I don't want to tear the headers apart.
I also tried fitting my cooling system, but the C-body radiator is too huge for the hoses I've got. I tried the 1.75 to 1.5" adapter for the bottom hose, but I'm going to have to shorten all the hoses or notch the K-frame for it to clear. I dont want to do the second one, so I may end up with this radiator. The curve of the bottom hose is too close to the k-frame with the silicone adapter.
Ride height (First time on ground since the hemi install) It's stupid low.
Lower radiator hose issue. It sits too far back due to the radiator being both thick and offset too far back. (I knew this coming into it, when the car was a BB I had to buy the shorter Jaguar fan clutch)
Clutch linkage and Z-bar fit. A blessing with the TTI headers, I really was expecting to buy a Hydraulic set up.
And a little suprise. My good buddy Uhcoog1 came by to do some "data logging" today and gave some of my friends rides with his new built to the tee 6.1 based 392. The car rips and it's only 60% tuned. It's very safe on AFR, so he showed some folks what it can do.
I've never felt confident in an old mopar at speed or around a corner until I drove his car. It's a work of art and completely built in his garage. He deserves massive props! More people need to build their own cars.
You might want to try calling Champion. I believe they were making a GenIII radiator that reverses the inlet/outlet. I remember seeing a thread on it not too long ago on FABO.
I'll call them. If I can butcher this radiator for start up I will. I don't want to spend $100 getting an outlet put on for something that may leak down the road when the right radiator is $200
And a little suprise. My good buddy Uhcoog1 came by to do some "data logging" today and gave some of my friends rides with his new built to the tee 6.1 based 392. The car rips and it's only 60% tuned. It's very safe on AFR, so he showed some folks what it can do.
I've never felt confident in an old mopar at speed or around a corner until I drove his car. It's a work of art and completely built in his garage. He deserves massive props! More people need to build their own cars.
Thanks for the kind words, Alex! Let's get yours running so we can start tuning yours as well.
The factory hoses work fine. My radiator is 1.5" upper, 1.75" lower (same as champion I believe) Engine side is 1.75" upper, 1.625" lower
Copy and paste from my post on FABO:
Quote:
Upper radiator hose for passenger side neck: Dayco C72282 - ID of 1.44 and 1.72 (for a 2006 Dodge Charger 5.7 hemi) Gates 22940 - ID of 1.44 and 1.75
Lower radiator hose for passenger side neck: Dayco E72225 - ID of 1.59 and 1.78 (for a 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 ) Gates 23036: 20.6" length, 1.63" ID, 1.75" ID
Upper radiator hose for drivers side neck: ?? - Jeep SRT8 upper radiator hose - appears to be 1.5" radiator neck, 1.75" water pump neck Goodyear 62968
Lower radiator hose for drivers side neck: Dayco E72281 - 1.44 & 1.66 ID (I measured this one in the store- the water pump side was ~1.5" I think, and the radiator side was smaller) - this is for a 5.7 dodge charger *I think a SRT8 lower radiator hose would have a larger hose ID for the radiator side. I don't know, as autozone and Rock Auto both do not have hoses for the SRT8 cars, period. Looks like you'll have to go to the dealer.]
And a little suprise. My good buddy Uhcoog1 came by to do some "data logging" today and gave some of my friends rides with his new built to the tee 6.1 based 392. The car rips and it's only 60% tuned. It's very safe on AFR, so he showed some folks what it can do.
I've never felt confident in an old mopar at speed or around a corner until I drove his car. It's a work of art and completely built in his garage. He deserves massive props! More people need to build their own cars.
Thanks for the kind words, Alex! Let's get yours running so we can start tuning yours as well.
You know me. Slow and steady gets the car done sometime before the end of the next century.
UHCoog - So the factory hoses are tapered as well?
Wonder why they did that? And here was me thinking they'd got the radiator all wrong
I better edit my blog as well...... ops:
Ah well....makes it easy for you guys - unfo we couldn't get the factory hoses over here without paying stupid high dealer costs.... So alls well I guess..
Quote: UHCoog - So the factory hoses are tapered as well?
Wonder why they did that? And here was me thinking they'd got the radiator all wrong
I better edit my blog as well...... ops:
Ah well....makes it easy for you guys - unfo we couldn't get the factory hoses over here without paying stupid high dealer costs.... So alls well I guess..
Yeah- I ordered an adapter as well thinking there would be sizing issues- well that adapter is still on the shelf!
I took off work today due to the obscene amount of hours I've worked this month (no complaints...just tired) and I got a bunch done on the car!
I mounted the EFI box on the area directly beneath my factory AC box. It's really a perfect fit and the box is very well sized. I see the point in his sliding bracket design. I really like it.
I can have the ECU in and out in under a few minutes.
I tried my best to hide the wires. This is easier by far in a B-body than wades A-body...I really didn't want to have to run the 2" holesaw thorough my firewall. I'm going to further protect the wires in the fender well. I was initially worried about a blow out of a tire killing the wiring harness, but if that happens I've already got a ton of problems.
The harness laid out well in the engine bay. Not a problem worth mentioning. The connectors are OEM quality and the routing is very logical. I know agree with Emil's idea of resheathing the harness, but I could easily remove the whole harness at a later date.
I'm going to be able to use my C-body 440 Police radiator without issue. I simply trimmed down the 1.5" to 1.75" silicone adapter and cut a 1.5" U bend down in the curve and made it work for my lower hose. It clears the K-frame by about an inch and stays away from all critical items. I wan't to go over all the ends with T-bolt clamps. I hate worm gear clamps.
I also did a test fit of the 18x9" mustang wheels I picked up for $69 each. They'll need the hub opened up a bit, but the offset looks good and they'll clear the tie rod end.
Now I need something bigger than 11.75" brakes.
On a semi related note...Can someone tell me what goes in this hole? I can't remember for the life of me!
Awesome! Aren't B&E body engine bays/ K-frames the same dimension wise? That looks like way more room compared to a 340. Gives me ideas of how to route things
Looks great Alex! Ive been spinning my wheels waiting on Milodon. So today I did some more polishing inside my intake and installed rear main seal on engine.
The frames are the same. Your install should be identical.
I will say that everything is very easy to work on with this motor. Plugs are a no brainier, header bolts take some time and the timing cover is very modular.
Think that is an A/C car. If true I think it was a plate with hoses for the A/C. Not 100% on that though never had a B body. Maybe it rings a bell for you? I'm sure someone will chime in with facts.
Quote: Think that is an A/C car. If true I think it was a plate with hoses for the A/C. Not 100% on that though never had a B body. Maybe it rings a bell for you? I'm sure someone will chime in with facts.
Damon
That's what my dad said too. My 68 bee and his 68 gtx don't have that hole and don't have a/c.
Do any of you know the timing curve you are using on the gen 3 motors? I'm doing some research on one and I think the total should be in the 22 degree range? I know it's a lot less than a LA motor
Quote: Do any of you know the timing curve you are using on the gen 3 motors? I'm doing some research on one and I think the total should be in the 22 degree range? I know it's a lot less than a LA motor
20-22* is a good rule of thumb. Maybe Mike from OST will weigh in. He's the resident tuning expert for these motors.
My experience is slightly different: my built 5.7 had quite a bit more timing in it (AFTER peak torque- all the way up to 30+). That was with dome pistons, 03-08 82cc heads, and .075 quench. Peak torque was in the 22* range if I recall. That table was worked up on the dyno.
I'll find and post the factory timing tables when I find em in my photobucket.
The factory hemi computer has 3(?) different timing tables. WOT & MBT are two of them. I'm posting them below. I believe WOT table is referenced and timing is pulled from that based on conditions, and MBT is the table that is a 'cap' - never to be exceeded.
DO NOT PUT THESE IN YOUR COMPUTER AND EXPECT YOUR MOTOR TO LIVE. Factory computer PULLS TIMING from the lower of the two tables based on current conditions.
Most tuners would recommend starting at ~18* all in and working your way up monitoring for knock and tuning for power. A lot of high end builds run best at 20-22* all in.
05-08 5.7 - WOT table:
05-08 5.7 - MBT table:
09+ 5.7 - WOT table (do not have MBT table):
6.1 WOT table:
6.1 MBT table:
Once again, DO NOT use any of these for a start up tune. I reduced the 6.1/5.7 to 18 all in (pulled 30+% across the board) and started on that. Then on the dyno I added 2 degrees at a time at each spot until power was not added, then backed down 2 degrees to the lowest timing for max power (MBT for my motor).
Quote: Can you tell anything about the 'dip' in all of the timingcurves at roughly around 4000rpm in these timingmaps?
It's there on all of them and the dyno graphs show it as well.
There has been some speculation that the rpm that the dip occurs will change (or not be there at all) for different intake / cam combinations.
When tuning on the dyno I started with a flat curve and ended up with a small dip closer to 4800 as other areas wanted more timing.
Here is my old 5.7 with hilborn timing and dyno. DO NOT USE THIS TIMING CURVE.
*disclaimer: the above timing curve may blow up your motor. Don't use it. ** I checked the timing with a timing gun- it was 1-2 degrees retarded at 15-18 total timing.
Do you have any pictures of the header clearance to the idler/pitman arms? just wondering if I can get away with the fast ratio arms with modifications to the header tubes (I know TTi says no)
Quote: Some pictures of the Jeep SRT Oil filter adapter. The shield had to be shortened to avoid the K frame, so I trimmed it a little extra.
Do you have a part number for the oil filter adapter by chance?
I did find the part number for the adapter and related parts:
53013680AD 6.1L (SRT)Adapter 53021610AF 5.7L Adapter (I don't know what the difference between these two adapters is, but the 6.1L adapter is more expensive)
after working non stop on a project at work, I've finally got time to work on the car and order parts.
-I swapped my carter 4601 pump for an E85 compatible micro lift pump by Holley. It's a 7 psi, 32 gph pump that can pull 12" dry. My carter needed a regulator that I didn't want to install under the car to take it down to a lower pressure.
-Ordered a Nexus 7 table from amazon to run as my temp dash along with a registered version of tunerstudio and a Bluetooth GPS adapter.
-I'm getting a PS pump bracket from Emil and I've found a PS pump with a reservior that looks like it might work well. 2002 Camaro LS1 pump in GM Type 2.
-I need to order a battery box next and get some cable from a welding supply. I'm moving the battery to the trunk but I'm not messing with a master disconnect switch just yet. I'll run power to the fuel pumps directly at that point and a HD set of relays for them.
The factory hemi computer has 3(?) different timing tables. WOT & MBT are two of them. I'm posting them below. I believe WOT table is referenced and timing is pulled from that based on conditions, and MBT is the table that is a 'cap' - never to be exceeded.
The MBT table is the timing at which the engine makes maximum torque. This really needs to be mapped on a dyno with race fuel. Advancing it past that point doesn't gain you anything so that's why it appears as a "cap".
1/2" factory style pickup (I wish I had a 3/8 again just for the time being)
7 psi Holley Mighty Mite pointed at the passengers frame rail on a 45* angle (following the directions)
Feeding into the 1.5 quart accumulator where the passengers side exhaust hanger is. (I'm really lucky this fit so well...)
The GSL 392 picks up from there and pushes into the Corvette fuel regulator/filter.
From there it runs back into the factory style 1/2" fuel lines that I've got running on the passengers rocker panel.
All the main components are in place and bolted down. I tried using regular 3/8" EFI hose from the parts store and its junk. I'm going to go back to my original plan of using the Aeroquip AQP like Wade suggested. It's more durable and less likely to kink around bends.
I'm also going to put a splice in for a fuel pressure sensor port right after the regulator to main line. If I have either pump act up, I will be able to verify there is a problem this way.
Is that Aeroquip AQP stuff teflon lined? Hopefully it is so you don't get a fuel smell inside the car. You are still running the dead head setup? I will be running a bypass return in mine
I'm also going to put a splice in for a fuel pressure sensor port right after the regulator to main line. If I have either pump act up, I will be able to verify there is a problem this way.
Can you setup the ECU to monitor that sensor for you? Either PSI/RPM based rev limit adjustment or at least a warning light.
After Wade's experience, you would want something in place for that..
I'm also going to put a splice in for a fuel pressure sensor port right after the regulator to main line. If I have either pump act up, I will be able to verify there is a problem this way.
Can you setup the ECU to monitor that sensor for you? Either PSI/RPM based rev limit adjustment or at least a warning light.
After Wade's experience, you would want something in place for that..
My experience is probably a little extreme and mostly due to the proximity to the muffler and the extended high load run conditions. But I agree on monitoring the fuel pressure.
I started monitoring / logging fuel pressure a few weeks ago. Initially I had a sensor at the end of the passenger side fuel rail. The readings were very erratic. I installed a second sensor back right up against the corvette filter/regulator. Much more stable fuel pressure reading, and staying right where it should.
Megasquirt does have a check engine light capability. I haven't used it yet. It will monitor whatever you want it to. The more important thing you need to set up is AFR control- it's a table where you designate the allowable deviation from your spec'd AFR table, qualifying event time, etc. That will keep you from hurting anything.
Megasquirt has like 20 ports you can set up for monitoring 0-5v sensors. So you could add a fuel temp sensor as well if you so chose.
I'm also going to put a splice in for a fuel pressure sensor port right after the regulator to main line. If I have either pump act up, I will be able to verify there is a problem this way.
Can you setup the ECU to monitor that sensor for you? Either PSI/RPM based rev limit adjustment or at least a warning light.
After Wade's experience, you would want something in place for that..
My experience is probably a little extreme and mostly due to the proximity to the muffler and the extended high load run conditions. But I agree on monitoring the fuel pressure.
I started monitoring / logging fuel pressure a few weeks ago. Initially I had a sensor at the end of the passenger side fuel rail. The readings were very erratic. I installed a second sensor back right up against the corvette filter/regulator. Much more stable fuel pressure reading, and staying right where it should.
Megasquirt does have a check engine light capability. I haven't used it yet. It will monitor whatever you want it to. The more important thing you need to set up is AFR control- it's a table where you designate the allowable deviation from your spec'd AFR table, qualifying event time, etc. That will keep you from hurting anything.
Megasquirt has like 20 ports you can set up for monitoring 0-5v sensors. So you could add a fuel temp sensor as well if you so chose.
Temp makes more sense than another pressure sensor.
I will be taking advantage of the full range of safety nets that MS has to offer.
I'm not sure about the fuel line being teflon lined or not. I know Wade's car has never smelled like fuel any time I've been around it, so its a non issue.
My fuel system is set up to make big power. I've got 1/2" feed and return lines, but for this version of the car I dont need to run the frame mounted return. My return line will be dumping back into the tank right by the sending unit instead of going back up front for no reason. This single GSL392 will support 600 crank, so I'll be fine. If I go with my Paxton SC kit, I'll add a second GSL392 and be good.
Work work work. Now I need some time to order another round of parts. The sun finally came out after weeks of cold and rain. It's a lovely 60 degrees here today and I hope to get some more work done on the car this weekend.
I'm looking at getting a spare 6.1 block with all of the buzz about them re-releasing them.
-Hurst Competition Plus Shifter for a non-console car with install kit.
-06AN AQP Hose and random fittings I forgot the first time around (I need to get rid of the parts store rubber stuff.)
-Moroso Battery Box for the trunk mount (I'll size the battery from there.)
-GPS Transponder, Bluetooth Cable, USB Cable, Tunerstudio software
I'm looking to put finish wiring the fuel system and battery, put pressure to the fuel system and fire the car this month before I go out of town for work for a few weeks.
March and April are show season and I'd like to drive the car a few hundred miles to a show in April.
I've seen that kit as well just found it to be over priced. Very interested in your results though as I will probably use the same parts
If you talk to the guy it wont seem overpriced. The voltage regulator is of higher quality than the off the shelf units, so that right there is enough of a justification.
it is the C8313 just the same as what Alex bought. Hasn't failed me yet after a few thousand miles and a few track weekends. Previously I went through 3 or 4 of the autozone 'lifetime warranty' voltage regulators. This regulator will handle 7+ amps of field draw, which is about what the hemi alternator will draw at full power (according to an alternator specialist I spoke with).
Quote: If you talk to the guy it wont seem overpriced. The voltage regulator is of higher quality than the off the shelf units, so that right there is enough of a justification.
This is pretty handy>> "If you want to adjust the voltage regulator you use the screw on the back"
I'm pretty sure AGM batteries don't appreciate a constant 14.5V. A Chrysler computer typically wants to command something like ~13.6V but still needs to know what the voltage is to skew sensor's reference voltage appropriately. MS3 may not care so much, but at least this regulator allows adjustment and a AGM battery will last longer.
Quote: [quote}If you talk to the guy it wont seem overpriced. The voltage regulator is of higher quality than the off the shelf units, so that right there is enough of a justification.
This is pretty handy>> "If you want to adjust the voltage regulator you use the screw on the back"
I'm pretty sure AGM batteries don't appreciate a constant 14.5V. A Chrysler computer typically wants to command something like ~13.6V but still needs to know what the voltage is to skew sensor's reference voltage appropriately. MS3 may not care so much, but at least this regulator allows adjustment and a AGM battery will last longer.
You should see what the AGM batteries do at 18+ volts and 160 amps. I've never seen a battery smoke until one of the autozone voltage regulators failed causing the 18+v/160a condition. ha
Picked the mounting spot for the moroso battery box. Took it with me to the auto parts store and was in such a rush that I didn't even think to get it out of the truck and see what batteries will fit. Fail.
Picked up a 2000 camaro ls1 ps pump. With reservior from autozone. I need a few bits and pieces to get it on with Emils bracket.
Completely started over on my fuel system. I had it all messed up and some overdone loops to make it fit. I've keep all the same components but re positioned them in better places. Looks cleaner and safer.
I started installing my shifter but I'm missing the 1/2 lever. I'll call hurst tomorrow and get the right one in. I'm very happy that I decided to go all new on the shifter and linkages.
I stripped the weatherstripping off of the trunk and put new replacement from Classic industries in. Such a huge improvement and it may fix my trunk leak.
Things left to do before I can fire:
Run the new battery cable to the trunk and finish the install.
Run wiring to fuel pumps.
Permanently mount ms3 box (no big deal, just didn't feel comfortable with it sitting in the car)
Fill trans with fluid
Get driveshaft balanced and put new joints in.
I've got sway bars, wheels, tires, big brake kit and a dash rebuild looming, but I won't stray from it running first.
Alex keep plugging til its making noise. I'm gonna get mine running before fenders are on or the the wiring for lights is done. After they pop, it brings a calm to the process and you relax and everything else is easy.
I need that mental refreshment. It's been too long. The last time I had the car down this long, once it was running I burnt myself several times from forgetting that the engine gets hot again.
So my mainstay plan is to use the Android tablet for start up, but I need a permanent solution. Here are my choices:
-Restore the taxi cab dash ($600 and I only make it pretty and adequate...) I dont gain any gauges aside from turning the amp gauge into a volt gauge.
-Make a plate the same size as the taxi cab dash and try to fit a 3 3/8" Tach and speedo along with 4 2 1/16 gauges. I've seen this done, but it looks cluttered due to the small opening. I've ordered 1100 series aluminum plate in 6x24" to try this.
-Cut the dash for a rallye dash cluster (i've got a junk cluster and bezel) and try to adapt a rallye dash pad to the bottom. The fascia should cover it all. This is the preffered option, but riskiest. If it doesn't work I've got a chopped up dash that needs to be completely swapped out to a rallye style.
Now there are even digital drop in clusters...
-The most expensive option and least inspired option is this one...
Overpriced and doesn't do much aside from fit in the stock place. Id buy it right now for $500 less than it is.
-The simplest and most easily reversible is to get a Racepak Street Dash and bolt it to that .250" aluminum plate with my wideband and go. It can do turn signals, flashers, speedo, tach, water temp, oil pressure, volts and oil temp. That would be simple. I've printed a template of the racepack, if it can fit easily I'll order this.
For track day purposes I don't think a tablet will cut it because anything not tied down in a event of a crash is just another potential missile to the cranium. I have the RacePak IQ3 only because I bought mine new back in 2009 but never used it until only last year. I am pretty sure they have a Vnet interface that will tie in your MS3.
The RacePak stuff is good for street use but I find the datalogging is complicated compared to what you can get for free on your typical smartphone apps. There are display dashes like the AIM MXL2 that have great features that should tie into your MS3 setup also, but are way up in price
This will only be used for read out. Data logging will all be handled be the ms3. Even with the racepack unit I may still get a car mount for the tablet.
It can be used to make quick tune changes if I don't have the laptop.
Option to use aftermarket gauges. It'd be the best balance between stockish and getting some better information. I wouldn't care for the taxi dash or the all digital at all. But that's just my opinion.
You can Get a basic .dxf software and draw up a dash. A local shop with any sort of waterjet, CNC plasma, laser cutter, etc can make short work out of it. just get them to do it when they run their next batch of ~1/8" alum, it'd be pretty cheap. .
So I'm done with a month long insane period at work.
Things left to do:
-Run battery cable to starter -Mount box and purchase a series 35 battery -Complete a few misc fuel line connections -Wire fuel pumps -Find a high amperage relay for my Thunderbird 4.6 fan. -Trim the fan shroud back a half inch. -Find misc hardware for PS pump (worked on this last night, I've got the wrong pump..) -Connect exhaust to headers -Find someone to press in my Moog problem solver UCA bushings -Take the DS for a rebuild/balancing
At that point, it will be ready for its maiden voyage and flogging.
I'm trying to knock one thing off the list a day. So far I'm off to an OK start....
I'm contemplating using one on my dual fuel pumps. Just a tiny Holley Pump and a GSL392.
On a related note, I need some advice on powering my fuel pumps. I'd like to locate my fuel pump relays in the trunk of the car close to the battery. I was imagining a small fuse panel for the pumps and a small lug panel to take the power direct to the relays.
I can't prove that I worked on it if I didn't take pictures.
Installed my $20 Camaro spoiler:
Installed the Moroso battery box and got an Autozone AGM battery. NHRA legal...yo. Kinda.
I also realized that I'm not as smart as I thought I was. I purchased an LS1 power steering pump to bolt to Emil's bracket, but the clocking is different from the pump he based the kit off of and the reservoir comes out the side instead of the top.
DONT BUY AN LS1 PUMP.
I'll be buying the Speedway pump like he is using and doing AN fittings to the box.
Quote: I'm contemplating using one on my dual fuel pumps. Just a tiny Holley Pump and a GSL392.
On a related note, I need some advice on powering my fuel pumps. I'd like to locate my fuel pump relays in the trunk of the car close to the battery. I was imagining a small fuse panel for the pumps and a small lug panel to take the power direct to the relays.
How should I wire this?
What are you doing to fuse/protect your alternator output? I am assuming it is going to end up back there to the battery or to your switch?
I used a Blue Sea systems circuit breaker on mine, they make larger current rating models. If this was somewhere in your trunk, you could use one of the lugs to also feed your little fuse box, then to feed your relay[s].
I trimmed 1/2" off of the Thunderbird fan and notched it with a pair of shears and it fits really nicely. A few impromptu brackets and it will be ready to go.
Also after much deliberation and a stressed out thread...I got the shifter in.
Now I just need to connect the linkage rod and I can check actuation of the gears.
Next I need to order 2 HD 70 amp relays, 3 breakers (fan, fuel pumps and alternator output) and all my supplies to wire the important systems of the car.
I've got a GM PS pump on order and the fittings to connect up the PS box from Firm Feel.
I just need to pick up some of the Aeroquip AQP PS hose and fittings when it comes in. I've already got the Durango pulley that Emil suggested for the .662" shaft.
So, after another month of traveling I'm working on the car again this weekend.
I'm hoping to start the car without the exhaust for a short period. Emil made me do it by showing me his car running in a semi assembled state.
I'll bench test the injectors and coils, disconnect it all and turn it over for an oil pressure check. Once it's showing pressure, I'll see if it will high idle for a little while and maybe get some heat into it.
It is terrifying, but it will pop. With no exhaust watch it close because it will want to run really rich with the O2 being so close to clean air with no exhaust. Mine was rich because of that and the tune demanding double the needed fuel because of my injectors.
A partial update. I decided not to jump the gun and fire it. I've not put 12v power to the car since 2010, so I've got a list of important things to check off before I risk a fire.
I worked on the serpentine belt (I had 6 at the house, some for AC and others for a paxton supercharger kit...I didn't have one for the AC delete). I had to shorten one of the factory bolts that goes through Emil's PS bracket into the head and also the 3/8" bolt that goes into his bracket. I think this is due to the PS pump that I've got and not his hardware. Either way, the pump is on and it fits well. I've got to make a clean cut on the Aeroquip AQP high pressure PS hoses and get to a vise to install the fittings.
I filled the transmission with 90wt and replaced a broken Neutral safety switch.
Little odds and ends...most importantly I took a complete 180 turn on my fuel system...(I'll leave that for later) This is quite possibly more exciting than finishing the car for me.
And I connected the battery and it didn't have problems. I expected something to be wrong between moving the battery to the trunk and it sitting dormant for so long, but I connected the terminals and I waited with a fire extinguisher. No issues.
12v up to my main power lug
Overall...
As I told a colleage of mine at work today. When I didn't have the money, I had all the time I needed...now that I have the money I've got no time. Updates soon to follow.
This is the problem with time passing and getting older haha.
Well, this may not seem like a huge deal to others but this may be the biggest development in my whole build....
As some of you may know, there hasn't been a simple option for fuel systems when converting to EFI that doesn't have it's drawbacks.
Wade (uhcoog1) has had a great system that I was going to copy verbatim. It involved a small lift pump pulling from the stock tank, filling a surge tanks and then an external inline GSL392 pump pushing up to the front. This took Wade to the Texas mile, BBOR, a trip or two across Texas and more track days than most people here could dream of in an old car and then some. It worked better than a cheap fuel system should have, but the problem that couldn't fix completely was heat. The pump was open to exhaust heat and it really wasn't an OEM quality pump.
I had this copied system installed on my car and I'm ready to fire the car for the first time with the Hemi.
But then a certain someone let me know that a company may have a better option for me. An affordable and baffled EFI ready tank that would be a direct bolt on for my Roadrunner. I waited for a few months, and I present to you the following...
A beta test unit for Tanks Inc's 68-70 Plymouth B Body new efi ready tank. It maintaines a factory fitment and has a 19 Gallon capacity.
I was really stunned to see that it came in completely powdercoated! I was mentally ready to see the whole tank get covered in undercoating, but this is far better. It will look good with the stainless straps I've got.
It comes prepared to use their GPA fuel pump modules that can support anything from a TBI low performance application, to a pump like mine in 460LPH for E85 (600-1000hp)
There are two pre-determined holes in a recessed area at the front of the tank. One is for an adjustable sending unit (I went with the aftermarket sending unit Ohm range) and the other is for the fuel pump module.
The fuel pump module on mine is identical to all the others that their tanks use. It's a modular system that has a wide enough range to fit almost anything.
I'll have to trim the pick up and return tubes and attach the fuel pump to it, simple stuff.
What makes this tank better than a stock tank in my application is the baffling they've built into this stamping. There is a basket that the return line drains into and the pump sits in with two approximately 3/8" holes in the bottom. This will keep the pump covered in fuel as best as possible under cornering and also the pump will be bathed in fuel from the return line dumping back on it. A cool fuel pump in a tank of fuel will allow for a much more reliable set up than ANY external fuel pump. Couple that with the fact that this pump comes off the same assembly line as many other big three fuel pumps, I've got confidence with this system that I couldn't get anywhere else.
Some random shots of the basket and inside of the tank. Pardon my pictures, my phone would only fit into the tank so far haha.
Here is a shot from the filler neck to the front of the tank. This large internal baffle will help under acceleration and braking.
I can't be happier to be one of the first to receive one of the first of this tank. I'll be starting the car shortly now that I've got my fuel system delivered in one single package.
I'd really like to thank my good friend Wade for tipping me off to this and also Justin at Tanks Inc for the prompt response, the chance to be a beta tester (they're almost ready for market) and awesome shipping/ service.
Looking closer at that baffle, I can't help wonder if it won't work itself loose over time because of the few one side only spot welds. Thinking about if many pounds of fuel sloshing against/around that plate in racing conditions over time could tear the spot welds.
I'm thinking the 8 spot welds will do just fine, the fluid will be able to dissipate some energy flowing out of the baffle if needed through the holes or over the side.
The whole car is held together with spot welds anyway.
Well, I would be interested in a kit from them if they sold it for my 67 b body. I assume that one day that will happen since it is a chasis that is seen often.
I like the finish on that tank also. Is is coated? Looks like it is coated almost.
Well, I would be interested in a kit from them if they sold it for my 67 b body. I assume that one day that will happen since it is a chasis that is seen often.
I like the finish on that tank also. Is is coated? Looks like it is coated almost.
-power steering system is done -wiring is cleaned up -I regained power inside the cab -most systems are wired
The stuff that didn't work well-
-my starter is freewheeling. I don't know if the solenoid isn't pushing forward or if something is weird with my bellhousing. I'm using a Lakewood bell with a 10.5 mopar flywheel. The starter is new, but sat in the garage for a few years and is unused. It's not engaging the flywheel. Is there anything special about using this sb bell with a 10.5 setup? I thought that maybe the starter would need to be moved in to touch the smaller flywheel. Is it possible that the solenoid would cease to push forward ?
-I couldn't get my ms3 box to talk to the computer. I've got a bit of trouble shooting to do with that.
I need to do the following by Saturday to get it fired:
-make starter work (will pull tomorrow) -install new fuel tank and pump. -make the Laptop talk to the ms3 box.
I can Fire it with open headers at that point. Let's see how tomorrow treats me!
Isnt there 2 starter bolt patterns on those bells for different flywheels? I know mine only has one but it also mandates a 10.5" flywheel. You need to do DIY and get the right installer for your computer to open Tuner Studio.
Mike, Wade and Brian came over to my parents place this Saturday to help get the car running.
Here is the rundown of events that led up to the car running...
My car wasn't wired for a starter relay and didn't have one. After a few days of wondering why it wouldn't engage the starter relay...I then came to the conclusion that it's a GM wiring harness and thats why my ignition switch didn't have the power to push out the solenoid and turn it over at the same time. Big DUH moment for me, but Mr. HandyGoody wired a new one in for me on Saturday...that's what I was lacking. Felt good to add another mopar style part to this car lol.
I had laptop issues...it wouldn't talk to my EFI box. I had to reinstall the driver for the usb cable as "administrator" to get it to talk. It worked easily after that little bit of advice from Wade.
I also figured out that this harness picks up power from the harness, so I wired my harness back to the starter with a 60a maxi fuse (was omitted before) and it came to life. I regained power to the cabin and lots of my accessories. That was one of the best moments in the last five years, I was very happy to see it start feeling like a car again.
Once I had power back to the car, I was able to focus on the fuel system. I mocked up the new tanks inc system with the 460LPH e85 pump and sending unit. I cut the module down a bunch. I've only got about 6.75" of depth in this pump, so the entire module with sock is about 6 5/8" from bottom of the plate to the sock.
This is one super quiet pump! You won't be able to hear it even with the car off unless you really listen. The sound of the fuel dumping and returning is almost louder.
The first time I installed it for mockup, I pushed too hard and frayed the ground wire against the side of the tank. My mistake...if you use a pump like mine...be very careful!
I tidied up the the module with some zip ties, and I was able to get it in with out catching anything but the nylon return tube. It went in much easier once I cleaned it up.
The sending unit took some thinking and careful reading of the instructions, but nothing that going over it all a few times couldn't fix. It's very universal...but thats a good thing for me. No pics of that Just read the graph.
While were on the topic of fuel...I had originally intended to reuse the tank that I bought when I replaced the fuel system in 2008 ish. That didn't work out like I planned, here is what was waiting for me after being sealed for that whole time.
It would have caused me immense problems, I'm really surpised a tank that was not even that old could get that back. Makes me think that a gas tank should just be replaced periodically.
Here is the old girl before she came back to life.
We worked Saturday to get the car ready for start up. That involved isntalling the fuel system, pressure testing the fuel system. A few leaks popped up, but were fixed with some quick thinking by wade.
We then worked on getting the oil system primed. I made two huge rookie mistakes. One was that I didn't pre-fill the oil filter and the other was that I didn't check all the block plugs to make sure they were in. We hooked up a simple mechanical oil pressure gauge and I'm glad we did. I forgot a plug in the front of the block that is mostly concealed....that would have made a huge mess...wade gets props for catching that mistake.
After we realized that pressure wasn't building, we figured that the gerotor pump was not happy pumping air. Brians idea of turning it over with the oil filter off the motor meant it dripped a bit of oil, but the air bubble was gone. After a few more revolutions we had 50 psi at the mechanical gauge and we were ready to fire.
We popped the fuses back in for the coils and fuel pump, and then we crossed our fingers and toes.
I kid you not, the first try is all it took. Within three revolutions it fired under its own power with Brian running the throttle. It idled high, but we were expecting it to be off on the first try. He was able to get it down to 800 rpm and we ran it for a few minutes. Cooled off and restarted with ease. We didn't run it for long with the open headers and a radiator hose I don't trust.
It went down to 800rpm and a 14.5:1 AF ratio even with the headers. With my PS hose fittings leaking and a few mins of runtime on her...we called it quits. I didn't want a smoke show and just those few minutes showed me all of the areas of concern that need to be addressed before I start it again.
Fuel system needs a slight re-do on lines. PS fittings on the AQP high pressure stuff need work. I didn't do them right. Radiator hoses need a more attention, no leaks yet...but my multipiece solution looks bad. I need to get the exhaust hooked back up. Driveshaft needs to go back on the car before the other 2 quarts of gear oil make for an even worse day. I need a throttle cable.
Once I fix all these issues, I'll start it back up and move it around for some clean up on the idle tune and it's manners. Once safe tune is in it, I'll start worry about driving it and tuning for power.
Mike at EFI source supplies a killer start up tune that worked flawlessly. I really owe him for the awesome product.
We changed the required fuel settings in megasquirt to account for the 55 lb injectors alex is running. Also, I was standing at the laptop ready to hit the 'auto tune' button, but we never needed it. The tune was fine- 13.5-14.5 the whole time.
More rotor offset is great for clearing fixed calipers but it can close up clearances on the back side of the knuckle. You have to start looking at clearances with the tie rod, ball joint, and other suspension bits.
Here is my first real update in almost two months. I've been travelling for work and haven't had much time to do anything.
I ordered a Champion Radiator with both outlets on the passengers side. It will simplify a radiator hose issue that I'm having and also make my electric fan clearance much better. Not to mention a little bit of weight loss.
I also purchased some more of the Innovate gauges. A water temp/voltage gauge and a Oil temp/Oil pressure gauge. I'm going to try of knock out these small projects and get some extended run time and its first drive down the street.
I'm also getting my 7260 driveshaft rebuilt and balanced due to a lost u joint cap.
A before and after of my driveshaft. I didn't know I had a 7290, which is a plus! Its seen better days and been out of the car for a few years. They were able to save the yoke and you cant see any evidence of corrosion any longer. They also balanced it and put in new American made U joints.
Any one of my Combination gauges (Oil pressure/temp)
I need to be ready to sit in traffic for 15 mins barely crawling and then sprint up to 75-80 for cruising on the highway. That's just my trip to work...
Luckily I found a 3.23 centerchunk while cleaning out the garage. I can finally get away from 2.94's...
Alex -- nice progress! Regarding the Moog Problem Solver UCA bushings, I'd highly suggest installing them into FF tubular UCAs... I know of someone who did that and they got ~ +7 caster... that is far better than most any UCA can offer (perhaps with the exception of the Hotchkis and SPC designs). If you can skip the factory stock UCAs and get aftermarket.... adding the Moog offset bushings is a base minimum, but, as long as you've gone this far (UCAs removed)... take advantage of this opportunity and do yourself better.
Another option is the RMS uppers. I contacted Bill a few years back and he sold me his uppers for like 300 and threw in adjustable strut rods for half price. Never hurts to ask for a discount.
I just bought the tools to finish out the stock control arms, so in the interest of getting these CAP control arms off and saving money, I'll do tubulars later (hotchkis is number one, if they will clear my brakes).
We pulled the original leaf springs off the car. I don't think that the factory spring hangers or shackles had ever been off. My shackles were bent from upper bushing being non existent. I only had moog replacement bushings for the spring eyes, so I hopped on Amazon and bought the Hotchkis shackles.
My first hotchkis parts, I'm pretty excited.
Tomorrow we will throw the 2 983 XHD springs in with Andys brackets and my 2" steel lowering blocks.
Also the wheels and tires are mounted...I can't wait to get it on the ground.
I see the zinc but I don't trust it. There are tooling marks and scratches on the metal. If anything gets through the zinc it can corrode like a cheap chrome wheel.
I see the zinc but I don't trust it. There are tooling marks and scratches on the metal. If anything gets through the zinc it can corrode like a cheap chrome wheel.
Meh. Surely there are other areas on these old cars to lose sleep over while worrying about corrosion.
I found radiator hoses for a B-body with a 26" radiator opening and a Champion Hemi swap radiator. Just universal gates green hoses and they fit really well. I'll post the numbers up tomorrow.
Oil temperature and oil pressure gauge is in. Had to take the alternator off but it was worth it. Cooling fan brackets are almost mocked up. Just need a little bit more work.
Also, my spring swap is complete. The car is sitting really nicely with the 2x right side XHD springs, 2" steel lowering blocks and the AR engineering front spring hanger set on the -1" setting.
You have twice as much room between the tire and fender than I had on my 72 Swinger, and that was after I rolled the inner fender lip. I had a bit less than one finger width between the tire and leaf spring and it would just slightly rub under hard cornering, not enough to hurt the rubber but just enough to keep the leaf shiny in that one spot.
Awesome car!!! This is what hot rodding is all about...taking a sweet looking old car and putting in a superior modern engine (and suspension). Great build, cool idea, and I think we all can relate the problems on the old engine, oil leaks, gas smell, reliability, etc. Thanks for sharing, I am a neophyte to the suspension and engine upgrade scene so I really enjoy seeing builds like this that aren't using the magic of television.
Awesome car!!! This is what hot rodding is all about...taking a sweet looking old car and putting in a superior modern engine (and suspension). Great build, cool idea, and I think we all can relate the problems on the old engine, oil leaks, gas smell, reliability, etc. Thanks for sharing, I am a neophyte to the suspension and engine upgrade scene so I really enjoy seeing builds like this that aren't using the magic of television.
Thanks, you've basically summarized what I expect and want from the car.
I want to build it to be left alone. I want to not have leaky cork gaskets, a tune that doesn't need to change with the weather, to be able to drive the car day in, day out with out rolling the windows down or smelling like fuel....
Get in, take off a minute after starting it and getting onto the freeway with a range that I decide. The silly fast speed I expect from 550hp in a relatively light weight combo is the best part.
This is all being done in my driveway, with no special tools or super expensive parts with the help of some really good friends. Wade, Mike and Brian all come to mind.
I won't say that this swap is cheap or for everyone. My case is unique and this car is swapped for about half the cost of the average person but I've horsetraded and stashed parts for 3 years before I turned a wrench on it. I saved a ton of money by being broke and patient.
Thanks, you've basically summarized what I expect and want from the car.
I want to build it to be left alone. I want to not have leaky cork gaskets, a tune that doesn't need to change with the weather, to be able to drive the car day in, day out with out rolling the windows down or smelling like fuel....
Get in, take off a minute after starting it and getting onto the freeway with a range that I decide. The silly fast speed I expect from 550hp in a relatively light weight combo is the best part.
This is all being done in my driveway, with no special tools or super expensive parts with the help of some really good friends. Wade, Mike and Brian all come to mind.
I won't say that this swap is cheap or for everyone. My case is unique and this car is swapped for about half the cost of the average person but I've horsetraded and stashed parts for 3 years before I turned a wrench on it. I saved a ton of money by being broke and patient.
In the past, I enjoyed the tuning of the old 340, COMP XE268 and thermoquad, but with the wide temperature swings we have in Houston in the fall, winter (Ha!) and spring, the daytime temps can be from the 30's -> 90's (October 14th today and it's 94 as I write this).
I also want to be able to drive this car (Assuming I ever get it back from the body shop) anywhere in all weather conditions and be able to cruse down the freeway @ 75Mph all day long with the A/C running (Passion 5-speed, 3.73's 285/35-18's), approach or exceed 20Mpg and run 118Mph in the 1/4 mile as well as stop and handle with a modern muscle car.
Thanks to Alex (Assuming he's right!) and Wade and Steve, both our motor are essentially identical and my '71 Duster should be a couple of hundred pounds lighter than Alex's '68 Runner.
This should be a fun, go anywhere, do anything resto-mod Duster. Hopefully it's first outing at a track will be at Royal Purple Raceway in February and the Big Bend Open Road Race in April! Time will tell...
Awesome car!!! This is what hot rodding is all about...taking a sweet looking old car and putting in a superior modern engine (and suspension). Great build, cool idea, and I think we all can relate the problems on the old engine, oil leaks, gas smell, reliability, etc. Thanks for sharing, I am a neophyte to the suspension and engine upgrade scene so I really enjoy seeing builds like this that aren't using the magic of television.
Thanks, you've basically summarized what I expect and want from the car.
I want to build it to be left alone. I want to not have leaky cork gaskets, a tune that doesn't need to change with the weather, to be able to drive the car day in, day out with out rolling the windows down or smelling like fuel....
Get in, take off a minute after starting it and getting onto the freeway with a range that I decide. The silly fast speed I expect from 550hp in a relatively light weight combo is the best part.
This is all being done in my driveway, with no special tools or super expensive parts with the help of some really good friends. Wade, Mike and Brian all come to mind.
I won't say that this swap is cheap or for everyone. My case is unique and this car is swapped for about half the cost of the average person but I've horsetraded and stashed parts for 3 years before I turned a wrench on it. I saved a ton of money by being broke and patient.
I've had a significant powersteering leak from my inability to seal the high pressure aqp braided fittings.
I decided to take off the fabbed stuff and get a hydraulic shop to make a new hose. They quoted $200 and I was ok with that. I gritted my teeth but I didn't want a fire.
I thought about it and since I'm using the GM Type 2 pump, I was sure that there has to be a hose that does what I wanted.
The pump has an 16mm O ring style fitting on the output, and thats fine with me. I went to the parts house and looked around for a few minutes. I picked a hose that looked identical to what I asked the shop to build. From a 95 Chevy Astrovan. It's 3/8" tube with an 18mm o ring seal. I'm going to get the end cut off, and flared to -6AN 37* to mate up to the -6AN fitting from Firm Feel on my steering box.
A local shop will fix the hose for about $10. I'll be $30 in by the time its sealed up.
I pulled it out with the belt off to make sure it moves. It does. I've got the exhaust hooked up, once the belt is back on when the PS leak is fixed I'll get ready for a test drive.
If you go into your general settings in Tuner studio there should be a flood clear option somewhere. If you set it to say %50 it won't operate the injectors while cranking if your have more than %50 throttle. Luckily I haven't had to use it yet but I am glad its there.
I'm waiting on 6.1 intake gaskets. I'm 99% sure that I didn't torque the intake down properly when I first installed it. I had a hard start issue, vacuum coming from the oil cap and right angle fitting on the tower and after pulling the intake, I'm pretty sure the gaskets were warped and distorted. One of the intake ports was also torn on the O-ring.
I'm resealing the intake, making a paper intake to throttle body gasket because the BBK throttle body fits terribly and buttoning it back up. Once I get a few more heat cycles into it and I can autotune the idle out....its ready to go for a drive. The gaskets were a little to oily for this short of a run time and I don't feel the car was sealed correctly.
I also had issues with the fitment of the factory heater tubes on the 6.1...the 1/2" hose that I had to use was very close to the wiper motor and was hitting the MAP sensor on the back of the 6.1 intake.
I tapped the holes for 3/8" NPT plugs and if/when I need to install the heater, I'll run braided AN stuff out to the heater core.
Once all that is sorted, I'll do a celebratory burn out or five.
I swapped intake gaskets yesterday. I torqued the intake properly this time, and instantly I noticed that I wasn't pulling vacuum from the PCV system like before. I could feel pulses coming out, and thats where I needed to be.
While I ran it with the intake improperly installed, I had two things working against me. A HUGE vacuum leak that was making my air fuel ratio all sorts of wacky, and I was pulling oil from the PCV system into the ports.
My plugs were used, stock heatrange eagle plugs by NGK. They're DONE FOR. I pulled them when they were fuel wetted yesterday and cleaned them up, but they're really stinky any black. So much so that I question if they're even firing at all. I've still got a no start issue, flood clear mode only does so much and after a few minutes of trying to get it to start it only fired once for a few seconds.
Here is what they looked like after I cleaned them up with a torch.
I've categorized what is working against me:
-11.5:1 with fuel and oil fouled plugs -Old fuel, I'm dropping the tank this weekend and putting fresh 93. -Oxygen sensor was run with open headers, it may be fouled out. I'll start by recalibrating -A leaking intake (fixed, but caused problems) -Not a lot of runtime or heat in the engine yet because of the poor idle air fuel ratio and run on problems.
I'm taking a step back and doing the following:
-Swap stock plugs for NGK 1 step colder iridium plugs -Drop tank, replace fuel and put a new filter on the fuel system. -Bench test all injectors and coils. I dont want the old fuel to gum the injectors up and if so...send them to get cleaned. -As soon as its running, clean the idle fuel settings up and get it to 14.7 A/F. Once up to temp, tune further. Drive it as soon as I can and clear things out.
It lives, again. I torched the oxygen sensor and spark plugs and wasn't as afraid as before to heat them up a little more. It fired right up and I was able to take fuel out easily.
Some timing adjustments are in order and it will be stable at 14.0-15.0 at idle.
Disaster avoided. My new plugs will be here tomorrow anyway so after I've got a little bit of drive ability done I'll throw those in.
So, I've learned a thing or two about modern gas. It sucks.
I've had the fuel (a few gallons of 93) in the tank for less than a year. It's sat and I didn't put any fuel stabilizer in it. Didn't think much of it.
Fast forward to early this month. Wade tuned the car at idle, fans would turn off and on and temperature was completely under control...the car was running great. I put the new NGK plugs in and was ready to complete the final little bits before I drive it.
Literally, I went to start it after doing the idle tuning. It started and was running so rich, it was terrible. 8:1 at idle. I thought something slipped via a keystroke...so I pulled 40% fuel at idle in an attempt to get it to idle closer to 14:1. It ran for a about a minute, pushing fuel out of the exhaust like I've never seen. I simply didn't know an engine would even run that rich. I calibrated the O2 sensor just in case...didnt help. There was no reason that the software couldnt control the fuel curve, I had a hardware fault.
I checked the plugs, and some weren't firing.I went into diagnostic mode when I saw that some of my plugs were completely clean. I pulled the fuel rail out after I noticed that there was a ton of fuel coming out from one side more than the other. Low and behold, my #6 injector was stuck wide open. I bench tested the injectors with the rail attached. As soon as I turned the fuel pump on, it sprayed with just pressure from the pump on the line. I quickly turned the motor over and fuel sprayed out of the #6 cylinder. It probably has .25 of a liter of raw fuel in there. Thankfully it didn't fill it up while running, so I narrowly avoided hydrolocking a motor with 0 miles on it.
I went into recovery mode and checked compression. My other cylinders were at 195 and that one was at 165. I was assured by my confidants and engine builder that it was simply because the cylinder was washed with fuel. I'm going to re-test with some oil on the rings to verify that the compression comes back up.
I pulled the fuel rail and injectors and starting figuring what I need to do to fix this.
-Clean injectors and rail ultrasonically. -Replace 10micron fuel filter. -Change the oil and filter. It HAS to have fuel in it. -Fresh gas, and fuel stabilizer in the tank. -Run some non ethanol unleaded race fuel. -DONT LET THE CAR SIT MORE THAN A MONTH WITH THE SAME FUEL.
Several sources confirmed that this 10% ethanol fuel can't be trusted, and it is very likely to make the car gum up sensitive parts with gunk when the ethanol dries. Apparently real e85 is worse at moving gunk around in a fuel system than this currently blend.
Lesson learned, don't let a car sit and clean the injectors when in doubt. I was orginally apprehensive about posting a mistake on my part, but I hope that someone else can avoid a problem by reading this. It's not a true account of the swap to this engine if I dont post the highs and the lows.
I asked about the age of your fuel, I had this happen to me a long time ago. Car wouldn't fire all of a sudden, tried lacquer thinner down the carb and bang it fired right off. 3 month old fuel was crap.
I blew the injector drivers on the EFI box. I didn't ground it properly with the battery in the trunk, and it created a capacatior cell that zapped the injector drivers.
I replaced the injectors, fuel filter/reg and flushed the system. The problem on two injectors still happened after having nothing the same, which led to an electrical issue.
Talked to Mike at EFISource, it was my fault for not overdoing grounds and running the constant on for the box directly to the battery. I've not put the harness back in, but he made some changes and we will avoid this happening again.
Curious on why you had to get the box updated Emil? Is there a new version?
I had small issues with wiring also Alex. I ran the fattest cables available back to the trunk battery for both positive and negative to start. Then my Gold Box gets a direct wire to the positive post on battery.
As for grounds using 4 ga. cable I tied the heads and block to a ground bus bar which ties to the negative cable back to the negative battey post. Gold Box grounds to the heads and all other grounds run to the bus bar.
Curious on why you had to get the box updated Emil? Is there a new version?
I had small issues with wiring also Alex. I ran the fattest cables available back to the trunk battery for both positive and negative to start. Then my Gold Box gets a direct wire to the positive post on battery.
As for grounds using 4 ga. cable I tied the heads and block to a ground bus bar which ties to the negative cable back to the negative battey post. Gold Box grounds to the heads and all other grounds run to the bus bar.
No issues with starting/ running
Thats where I messed up. I ran 0/1 g welding wire for the positive and a short wire for the ground. I need to overdo the grounds and run a bus bar to the grounds up front.
Ariel I had one of the early versions with coil igniters and injector drivers all in the box. Mike said this generates to much heat and I ended up with a burnt injector driver. Now the igniters are external. If yours is one with everything contained in the ECU, send it in for updating. Mine went a year and a half before it failed. My grounds were not the culprit. I told Mike it better have Military grade components this time or things were gonna get ugly, he assured me it is bulletproof now.
Ariel you should be golden. Alex and I were in the same boat with our versions of the Gold box. I guess mine making it 3000 miles before failing is just a testament to my anal grounding strategies.
A good friend of mine from here came all the way from Greece to help me finish up the proper wiring of the car.
We ran a 4g welding wire from the (-) post of the battery all the way to the PS kick panel. Now all of my dash electronics will go directly to there and my ms3 box will ground to the same point also. All of the grounds on the car will be tied together and overdone. My ms3 gold box also gets power directly from the battery.
If you've got a battery in the trunk, power things directly and over do your grounds. You will lose your hair otherwise. I can't stress what Monte_Smith and others have said repeateldy. Buss bars are your friend!
I've got to backtrack once again and bench test my injectors and injector drivers to make sure I've properly fixed the issues. Something about running at 8:1 AFR isn't comforting and I'd like to avoid it.
I reached a crossroads with the car. MS3 box was back in after some issues that I caused, and I wanted to rip off the vinyl top and paint the roof black.
Easier said than done, my roof under the vinyl top was solid bonds and pop rivets. Some waste of space threw a vinyl top over that mess sometime in the past.
I cut the roof off and I'm prepping a donor roof to go on. Not digging into a full restoration by any means, just throwing the roof and a new deck filler in and getting a bad paint job on the car.
After that, the Hemi action will start again. I started in July, and a bad work schedule has only let me make limited progress. I bought a Miller 211 welder, taught myself how to weld sheet metal and all the tools I need.
I'm daily driving a classic truck with 300,000 miles on it and it just makes me miss my hotrod more. I will likely just have these two cars in daily driven rotation.
The plan is to get the bugs worked out of the old car and start driving it the way I'm driving this. Road trip and power tour type stuff.
If my carb'd, 4 speed with no OD, 300,000 mile, 11mpg cruiser can do 15,000 miles a year...the EFI roadrunner with a modern engine should be able to knock it out no problem.
This is the 70 Roadrunner that gave its roof. Abandoned after Katrina down in Louisiana, everything has been stripped.
The older gentleman wanted $100 as is. No vin or title. I just wanted the roof and I've got nowhere to store it, so after I cut the roof off, it was crushed. I felt sad, but it was a goner and it is donating the roof and some of the complex patch panels that mine needs.
He also had a pretty awesome blown Hemi Roadrunner.
After sitting for quite a while, I'll be dropping the tank to see how well stabil keeps ethanol 93 and cleaning it out. Another 2 weeks before I'm back in the country from travels to get the car moving again. The life of a nomadic blue collar worker.
After that, I'll drive it onto the trailer and take it to get the roof replaced and body work.
Alex, Been away for some time and looking to do a similar swap as yours except witha 6.4/392 Hemi crate engine with a 23 spline four speed. I couldnāt find any mention as to what pilot bearing you used. I did see you cut the input shaft 1/2ā. Thanks
Wow!Just read through the whole thread, I'm impressed! Thanks for posting all the hurdles and how you've over came them. There's no telling how many people you've helped. Including me!
Are there any major changes or advancements that have been made in recent years however? I like reading these threads from the trendsetters and pioneers but I wonder how much of it has been solved by this or that part number now offered?
I don't believe so. I know that the VVT 5.7 and 6.4 are getting easier to swap, which means that the hellcat motor will be easier also.
I think the core choices for EFI and such have pretty much stagnated. I bet the majority of innovations will be valve covers and detail stuff from here on. I do see rocker stuff happening, but that is only needed in the most extreme of circumstances.
I've got the new roof skin headed there along with every piece of metal that amd sells for the rear of the car. The top half of the car will be rust free in several months. I'll update next when it goes to the shop on Friday.
I also put the stock hood back on. Its really bright in comparison to the outside of the car. No need for a 6 pack hood with the Hemi.
Nothing great has happened in this time. Some rust was cut off and the first fit of the roof is happening.
I'm shopping for wheels and tires, but I'll just buy the wheel measuring tool first and measure it from there.
I want to do a 275/40-18 front and a 295/40-18 rear, and I'm sure this can be done without much work or measuring.
It's the 285/35 front and 3xx rear that make me have to work a little more. I don't want to buy tires til the car is done with body work. I don't need them losing life at a body shop.
I've also picked up the Dr Diff 3.23 ratio for a Dana 60. It would be cheaper to build the dana than to get a loaded 8.75" center section.
Slowly but surely. A pillars are in, drip rails and a new roof skin. Currently looking for new C pillar Patch panels. USCT mini tub kit is going in next for the future wider wheels.
I've basically bought most of the AMD Catalog. Roof, package tray, filler panel, trunk drip rails and now full quarters. Zero regrets, I'm stupid and I love this rust bucket.
I'm going for a 315/30 rear down the line. I'm only going to replace the outer wheel house at this point. All the AMD stuff is great and fits far better than I expected.