Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know..

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/17/13 05:58 PM

Quote:

Do the Gen III Hemis use throw away stretch to yield bolts? Where?

Primary head bolts. The secondaries are reuseable.

I see a lot of the gaskets appear to be reusable. Please post your experiences.

I've seen people take apart the multi layer steel gaskets and reshim them to gain or lose compression. I've never tried it.
How good/bad is the stock timing chain? Good low priced alternative? High hp high rpm alternative?

I like the OE dodge ones, but manley has an adjustable offering I believe.

At what point do tie bars for the rocker shafts start to really show a hp gain?

You wont see power from them, just stability and resistance to failure.
The Hemi heads flow so well, the reaction to various cams must be different than say a stock small block. Anyone care to share what they know about duration,ICA and LSA?

That's a broad subject. I might be able to drum up some good conversation about that.
Can the new Hemi heads run a higher compression ratio in comparison to an aluminum head small block?

Yes, aside from the fact that it is aluminum...the fact that it's a dual plug and an awesome chamber helps the most.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/20/13 02:39 PM

With the drag pack cam, (229int 236 ex duration, 110 lobe seperation) what kind of torque curve am
i looking at with a 3.888 arm? Any idea where to install it? My guess is start at 104? This will be a street motor with the Edelbrock dual four combo and two 500 cfm carbs, SRT8 jeep manifolds for exhuast.
Thanks very much to all those that have contributed, and keep it coming.
One thing I heard was the motor should be pre oiled, can be done through a pipe plug by the oil filter mounting location . Anyone care to add to that ? (equipment, does the motor need to be turned over, etc)

Posted By: Kindafast

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/20/13 02:51 PM

While my 5.7 was a stock .30 over rebuild , I had no problem dry starting mine. I filled the oil filter up and it didn't roll over about 1 full turn and fired right up.. It took just a couple of seconds to build oil pressure , just like a oil change.. For that small amount of time I don't see any reason not to dry start them..

Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/20/13 06:52 PM

After seeing this pic I think I would avoid using the factory (powdered metal) rods.

Attached picture 7554462-2011-07-11_16-06-35_929.jpg

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/20/13 07:52 PM

Quote:

After seeing this pic I think I would avoid using the factory (powdered metal) rods.

I have a set of rods out of a Drag Pack motor. I also see a lot of guys on the internet having reasonable life out of their motors after being hot rodded some, so I have to ask about the rod failure, how much rpm, any boost involved, timing, fuel, rpm, etc to find out what is the danger zone?
On the block, I beleive the 5.7 has a fair amount of meat in it, but needs to be sonic checked to go beyond the minimum anyway. This may not be true on the 6.1 or 6.4. I talked to Chuck Lofgren about it, but only remember what was needed with my build, the 5.7 block.
It is too bad they limited this motor to four bolts per cylinder. That is a big obstacle to overcome (if it can be at all) beyond a certain boost level.
One more thing, Anyone with solid evidence that some facts presented hear are wrong, please say so. A lot of what I have written here is second hand info, not hands on experience.

Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/20/13 08:20 PM

We will be assembling our Gen3 Hemi next month and have it on the dyno by the end of the month. Unlike previous engine builds for CC where we take pics BEFORE the build, I will have BEFORE pics available, but we will be tearing the engine apart AFTER the dyno session and taking pics then.

We are looking for problems as well since we have to stand behind every engine we build and we don't want anything coming back or failing!

Once we do that, I'll probably start a thread about things we find. I believe it won't detour any work away from our shop but more importantly bring us work by helping others out and sharing info that will encourage potential customers to have us do work for them because we instill confidence BY SHARING our findings.
We don't have to give away all build info to help guys out so they have reliable engines IMO.

From what I can see, some light massaging of the passages will make a big difference, Manley oil pump and timing set, aftermarket crank is a nice upgrade (plus more TQ and HP)if you go with more stroke.
Our builds will be based on 5.7 blocks and 09' and later 5.7 heads. The cam cores are really cool looking as they are very beefy and heavy!!

Just received our Ritter intake so now it's time to finish machining and assemble. We're also using Clevite H series bearings and Diamond pistons.
Crank is a Scat 3.900 unit with a 6.200 rod so we can use shelf Diamond pistons meant for the 4.050 stroke and 6.125 rod.
Brian

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/21/13 03:10 AM

Brian, thanks for adding to the thread. This thread, and your build and subsequent thread should really move forward the info provided on this site!

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/21/13 07:22 AM

Thanks Greg for getting this rolling, I know there alot of guys who need to "come out of the closet" with what they have figured out about these little monsters.

Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/21/13 12:12 PM

Great thread and idea.

Some one in charge should compile the info from the individual posts into a Gen III Hemi FAQ document and update the tech bulletin from time to time.

Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/21/13 12:35 PM

Good topic.
I'm building a 5.7 for my daily '73 Dart at the moment.

The motor I bought for this project turned out to have a badly worn no.8 journal.
The rodbearing on no.6 was also spinning already.

What I noticed was that the pistons didn't move freely on the rods. Especially on no.8, which was pretty tight.
I wonder if other engines has this problem aswell, and maybe some of the failure-rates can be also 'blamed' on the piston-pins getting stuck in the pistons due to lack of (general) oiling?
The heads looked dirty and black-ish on top aswell. Probably lack of oil, or/and engine operatingtemps too high?

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/21/13 02:51 PM

Thanks guys. We can keep this near the top and keep getting more info with a little effort!
Here is a link to a lot of info- basic stuff.
http://www.allpar.com/mopar/new-mopar-hemi.html

Posted By: SRT6776

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/21/13 02:53 PM

I see a few references to the bottom ends being "weak". Just a suggestion, if you're gonna post something like that you better have solid proof to back it up and not just be posting BS hearsay rumors that probably spawned from a Chevy site.

In the mean time, go for a street ride atop a 9.50-second 1200 HP Grand Cherokee SRT8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdPcNz_y6EQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj15UbJxBBc

Posted By: CHAPPER

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/21/13 02:59 PM

The last 5.7 I found for a build, had 4 main bearings spun and one cam bearing spun. Appeared to have been ran out of oil for some reason. Maybe oil pump failure or just lack of oil in pan. The cam bearing housing bore checked OK and the main bearing housings will be align bored/honed with new caps, as the original caps were very loose fitting.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/21/13 03:12 PM

Quote:

I see a few references to the bottom ends being "weak". Just a suggestion, if you're gonna post something like that you better have solid proof to back it up and not just be posting BS hearsay rumors that probably spawned from a Chevy site.

[/url]

That is the purpose of this thread, to get to the bottom of a lot of info and finally compose a good reference for all to use. If you have something to add as to how far a particular version of our beloved Gen III Hemi can be pushed, please post. Most builds will start with some stock parts, so that is where we need the most input.

Posted By: MattW

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/21/13 04:03 PM

Once we do that, I'll probably start a thread about things we find. I believe it won't detour any work away from our shop but more importantly bring us work by helping others out and sharing info that will encourage potential customers to have us do work for them because we instill confidence BY SHARING our findings.
We don't have to give away all build info to help guys out so they have reliable engines IMO.

That right there is the first most important statement that I have seen in a while. BIG

to you Brian. I dont need your HP secrets, Just put to bed this oiling issue.

Looking forward to your posts. Matt

Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/21/13 04:39 PM

Here's a little tidbit I found that describes oilpump differences between 5.7 and 6.1 Hemi's.

Quote:

� Chrysler 6.1L Hemi (2005 and newer): The M362 oil pump is a new replacement pump for late model Chrysler 6.1L Hemis. It replaces Chrysler 5037687AB, and features a 15 PSI higher pressure relief spring to accommodate oil jets to cool the pistons. For the 5.7L Hemi, Melling�s M342 oil pump replaces the stock Chrysler�s 53021622AF pump. Melling�s 10342 Select Performance high pressure pump can be used with either the 5.7L or the 6.1L Hemi engines.

Posted By: hemidup

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/21/13 09:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

After seeing this pic I think I would avoid using the factory (powdered metal) rods.

I have a set of rods out of a Drag Pack motor. I also see a lot of guys on the internet having reasonable life out of their motors after being hot rodded some, so I have to ask about the rod failure, how much rpm, any boost involved, timing, fuel, rpm, etc to find out what is the danger zone?
On the block, I beleive the 5.7 has a fair amount of meat in it, but needs to be sonic checked to go beyond the minimum anyway. This may not be true on the 6.1 or 6.4. I talked to Chuck Lofgren about it, but only remember what was needed with my build, the 5.7 block.
It is too bad they limited this motor to four bolts per cylinder. That is a big obstacle to overcome (if it can be at all) beyond a certain boost level.
One more thing, Anyone with solid evidence that some facts presented hear are wrong, please say so. A lot of what I have written here is second hand info, not hands on experience.

I've sonic checked dozen's of G3 blocks. The thickest ones are from 2002 Ram 2500 5.7's but those are rare to get. Most of the 03 and newer 5.7's can easily withstand a .060" over bore whereas most 6.1 blocks only .020". My

for the day.

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/21/13 09:57 PM

I just traded a 6.1 .030 block that needed another .010 to clean up for a stock bore 6.l plus cash. For my blower build I plan on going .005 if I can get away with it and .010 at most.

Posted By: Cevidicus

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/22/13 11:47 PM

What about the VVT blocks? How beefy are they? How much power can they take in stock form? Will that Eagle oil pump interchange with the Appache oil pump? Is there a difference between the timing sets? How much cam can the stock eagle springs take?

Posted By: hemidup

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/23/13 04:44 AM

Quote:

What about the VVT blocks? How beefy are they? How much power can they take in stock form? Will that Eagle oil pump interchange with the Appache oil pump? Is there a difference between the timing sets? How much cam can the stock eagle springs take?

From what I've seen, the 6.4 block looks to be the beefiest of them all. The bottom of the cylinder walls are casted the same as the World aluiminum block. Basically what you get is a partial filled factory block, however I'm not to happy with the looks of the narrrow 6.4 timing chain. I think forum member STEFF has an answer to this as well as member CHAPPER who has the answer with his custom spring locator's when using the Manley 5.7/6.1 NexTek Series replacement springs on 6.1 G3 heads.

Posted By: TrWaters

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/23/13 03:11 PM

Quote:

The last 5.7 I found for a build, had 4 main bearings spun and one cam bearing spun. Appeared to have been ran out of oil for some reason. Maybe oil pump failure or just lack of oil in pan. The cam bearing housing bore checked OK and the main bearing housings will be align bored/honed with new caps, as the original caps were very loose fitting.

I had one (5.7) similar. Spun main and spun cam bearing. The cam actually seize in the bearing. Had to pound the camshaft out.

Posted By: Quickrunner

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/24/13 03:12 PM

Soaking this in like a sponge! Planing a gen 3 hemi for my 71 demon street strip 10.5 tire project.

Posted By: hemidup

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 01/24/13 07:17 PM

Quote:

I see a few references to the bottom ends being "weak". Just a suggestion, if you're gonna post something like that you better have solid proof to back it up and not just be posting BS hearsay rumors that probably spawned from a Chevy site.

Fact....In 2011 at the US Nat's, 1 of 5 DP Challenger's with a G3 lost an engine, whether a 5.7 or 6.1.

Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 02/05/13 11:01 PM

While replacing a 5.7 crankshaft the other day I noticed the maincap bolts are marked with 10.9 strength numbers. Would've thought TTY bolts would be a bit softer.
I learned the maincap-bolts are stretchbolts, but I didn't think strong/hard bolts like these could be used as TTY could they?

Torque-specs for the main-bolts is 27 lb/ft and then a 90 degree extra turn.

Can anyone provide the exact length of new/stock sized main bolts?
I wonder how much a torqued TTY bolt has stretched compared to a new bolt.

Posted By: hemidup

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 02/05/13 11:45 PM

Quote:

While replacing a 5.7 crankshaft the other day I noticed the maincap bolts are marked with 10.9 strength numbers. Would've thought TTY bolts would be a bit softer.
I learned the maincap-bolts are stretchbolts, but I didn't think strong/hard bolts like these could be used as TTY could they?

Torque-specs for the main-bolts is 27 lb/ft and then a 90 degree extra turn.

Can anyone provide the exact length of new/stock sized main bolts?
I wonder how much a torqued TTY bolt has stretched compared to a new bolt.

Wish I could help, but I always replace the mains with ARP fastners, which BTW changed their instruction spec's to install them like you would using tq to yield bolts. I tried their method once and that was enough. Thought I might have to use a breaker bar on the end of my digital tq wrench to get that extra 90* turn. Here are my spec's that I use when using ARP G3 main studs. Alighn hone main bearing housing to 2.7520 with studs @ 110# tq with oil. 25# on on the side bolts using Ultra gray between the block and washer.

Posted By: STEFF

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 02/06/13 04:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

While replacing a 5.7 crankshaft the other day I noticed the maincap bolts are marked with 10.9 strength numbers. Would've thought TTY bolts would be a bit softer.
I learned the maincap-bolts are stretchbolts, but I didn't think strong/hard bolts like these could be used as TTY could they?

Torque-specs for the main-bolts is 27 lb/ft and then a 90 degree extra turn.

Can anyone provide the exact length of new/stock sized main bolts?
I wonder how much a torqued TTY bolt has stretched compared to a new bolt.

Wish I could help, but I always replace the mains with ARP fastners, which BTW changed their instruction spec's to install them like you would using tq to yield bolts. I tried their method once and that was enough. Thought I might have to use a breaker bar on the end of my digital tq wrench to get that extra 90* turn. Here are my spec's that I use when using ARP G3 main studs. Alighn hone main bearing housing to 2.7520 with studs @ 110# tq with oil. 25# on on the side bolts using Ultra gray between the block and washer.

Not sure what you're talking about Jerry. I just installed the crank in my new motor and the ARP instructions were straight forward......100ft.lbs. on the studs/nuts and 25ft. lbs. on the cross bolts.

Posted By: Twostick

Re: Pistons - 12/15/14 07:18 AM

Quote:

I am looking at a 06 5.7 out of a Ram.. is this block
a decent starting point.. does it have the VVT.. it
is a complete engine
thanks

It won't have VVT but it will have MDS if that matters.

Kevin

Posted By: onig

Re: Pistons - 12/15/14 03:38 PM

Yes, that would work. No, it does not have vvt. Sounds like a good starting point if the price is right. Keep in mind the timing cover and accessory drive are different than on a car. You can't use the 6.1 intake without modifying the timing cover.

What mods will be necessary to the truck timing cover for the 6.1 intake to work, and any pics of this mod?

Posted By: MattW

Re: Pistons - 12/15/14 04:09 PM

Quote:

Wish someone would make a plastic 6.1 intake. They are heavy, although I put the time in to lighten mine quite a bit. 6.4 intakes have been swapped onto 6.1's and 5.7's both. Modern Muscle even offers CNC of the TB opening.

Isn't the 5.7 car intake a plastic version of the 6.1?

Matt

Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: Pistons - 12/15/14 04:31 PM

I think it is but with smaller ports. The 5.7 Eagle intake seems the be the one to get, bigger ports and has the variable runners as well. One thing to watch on the 6.4 intakes is when you do a turbo or centrifigal blower on them, they have a flow imbalance when the boost gets turned up because of the curved inlet, think short turn in an intake port, it likes to hug the outside wall so the passenger side see more than the driver side, something I read on LXForums

Posted By: RylisPro

Re: Pistons - 12/15/14 05:02 PM

Quote:

Wish someone would make a plastic 6.1 intake. They are heavy, although I put the time in to lighten mine quite a bit. 6.4 intakes have been swapped onto 6.1's and 5.7's both. Modern Muscle even offers CNC of the TB opening.

From what I've read on LX forums is that the Eagle 5.7 intake is essentially a plastic version of the aluminum 6.1 intake.
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php/200137-FOR-SALE-Brand-New-2010-5-7-Intake-Manifold
The TA2 Challengers also use them on their race engines

Posted By: StricNine

Re: Pistons - 12/15/14 05:13 PM

As mentioned, the 6.4 intake (for cars, I don't know about the truck variant) has an imbalance from one bank to the other, even without forced induction, and made worse with forced induction. The factory tune accounts for that for those cylinders.

The 5.7 Eagle car intake does not have the variable runner setup, the 5.7 Eagle truck intake does.

Some posts regarding it: On The Dyno, A Study Of The Effect Of Boost On The 6.4 Intake

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Pistons - 12/15/14 05:46 PM

I've had a 5.7 car 05-08, 5.7 eagle car and a 6.1.

Needless to say, I've only got the 6.1 intake now and my next purchase will be a MP drag pack intake.

The plastic stuff is good, but the sleeve on the inside is a hinderance. 6.1 is the best intake for what most of use are doing and it doesn't look cheesy.

If FAST came out with a polymer intake, I'd have that with a 102mm tb and be set for life.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Pistons - 12/15/14 06:22 PM

Well I guess I have to keep looking.. that engine
fell through.. sold

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Pistons - 12/16/14 08:20 PM

FWI to anyone interested, the 6.4 heads are still discounted $470 plus $150 core charge

Posted By: 1badx

Re: Pistons - 12/17/14 01:37 AM

Quote:

FWI to anyone interested, the 6.4 heads are still discounted $470 plus $150 core charge

Can you please post the info again on how to obtain these heads at the discounted price?

Thanks!
Mike

Posted By: onig

Re: Pistons - 12/17/14 05:47 AM

Here is a copy of my order.

"Your order summary
Descriptions Amount

HEAD-ENGINE CYLINDERHEAD-ENGINE CYLINDER$1,240.70
Item description: 68086555AA
Item price: $620.35
Quantity: 2
HEAD-ENGINE CYLINDERHEAD-ENGINE CYLINDER$1,240.70
Item description: 68086556AA
Item price: $620.35
Quantity: 2

Item total $2,481.40
Shipping and handling: loading$88.34

Total $2,569.74 USD''

Try this.

http://www.factorymoparparts.net/oe-mopar/68086555aa?search_str=68086555AA

http://www.factorymoparparts.net/oe-mopar/68086556aa?search_str=68086556AA

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Pistons - 12/21/14 09:47 PM

Full ported 6.1 intake weighs 34 lbs without TB,rails or injectors.

Posted By: SRT440DUSTER

Hemi - 12/29/14 09:04 PM

What does it take to run eagle heads on a stock bottom 6.1. With them being closed chamber I've read it takes compression to 11.3 to 1. I believe stock 6.1 is 10.5 to 1. Wondering how much of a gain. I have a set of both 6.1s and eagles ready to be sent out for cnc machining. Wondering if I can gain a worthy amount putting ported eagles on vs the 6.1s. I see the flow very similar numbers. But the added compression should add some power. No?

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Hemi - 12/29/14 10:56 PM

Quote:

What does it take to run eagle heads on a stock bottom 6.1. With them being closed chamber I've read it takes compression to 11.3 to 1. I believe stock 6.1 is 10.5 to 1. Wondering how much of a gain. I have a set of both 6.1s and eagles ready to be sent out for cnc machining. Wondering if I can gain a worthy amount putting ported eagles on vs the 6.1s. I see the flow very similar numbers. But the added compression should add some power. No?

FYI eagle's require longer push rods and different valve covers.

Posted By: SRT440DUSTER

Re: Hemi - 12/29/14 11:29 PM

Thanks I picked up a complete vvt 5.7 throttle body to pan for 150 bucks with a spun rod bearing. So I have everything from that. Would the pushrods be correct from that engine? Or would it be custom length?

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Hemi - 12/30/14 12:36 AM

Quote:

Thanks I picked up a complete vvt 5.7 throttle body to pan for 150 bucks with a spun rod bearing. So I have everything from that. Would the pushrods be correct from that engine? Or would it be custom length?

i do not know. i had an early 5.7 with eagles,that took custom PR's.. the 6.1 are different yet. personally i would go with the 6.1 heads, they have better lighter valves

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Hemi - 01/07/15 02:40 AM

This link has some good intake manifold info.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...ID=#Post8387608

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 01/10/15 06:51 PM

This thread is a good one for learning about grounds, specifically for electronic controls, which most will use.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post8385983

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 01/15/15 09:58 AM

Using the P/S pump eliminator idler pulley/bracket (2013 models) with 6.1 heads, the idler pulley sits about 3/8" too far forward. Maybe the Apache or Eagle heads changed the mounting boss height. Guess i'll be breaking out the welder....

If you have an early block that uses SAE thread oil filters, using a jeep angled oil filter adapter uses metric filters.

Was hoping to bypass the A/C compressor with just the P/S eliminator bracket/pulley, but the belt will interfere with the belt tensioner.

Attached picture 8396918-IMG_1898768.jpg

Attached picture 8396918-IMG_1898768.jpg

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 01/15/15 07:49 PM

Quote:

Using the P/S pump eliminator idler pulley/bracket (2013 models) with 6.1 heads, the idler pulley sits about 3/8" too far forward. Maybe the Apache or Eagle heads changed the mounting boss height. Guess i'll be breaking out the welder....

If you have an early block that uses SAE thread oil filters, using a jeep angled oil filter adapter uses metric filters.

Was hoping to bypass the A/C compressor with just the P/S eliminator bracket/pulley, but the belt will interfere with the belt tensioner.

this is because the the delete pulley is designed for vvt engines that use a different timing cover to clear the longer cam... i machined mine down on the pulley end, with no issue..

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Pistons - 01/29/15 01:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Wish someone would make a plastic 6.1 intake. They are heavy, although I put the time in to lighten mine quite a bit. 6.4 intakes have been swapped onto 6.1's and 5.7's both. Modern Muscle even offers CNC of the TB opening.

Will the 6.4 intake fit a 5.7

With Eagle,6.1 or Apache heads, yes.

Ok

There is one fitment issue for the 6.4 VR manifold on an early 5.7 or 6.1 block. The intake manifold hits at the water passage area at the front of the block, and may also have problems with the water tubes that run across the top of the block.
I pirated some info from another forum with some info on the fix. Basically grind off the webbing where the interference is, then heat and bend the plastic a bit, putting a small dent in the offending runner for clearance. I plan to grind the block casting some to keep the dent to a minimum. Another option would be some grinding and a spacer for the manifold. Here is some info on controlling the runners also. http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php/266543-2011-Variable-Runner-Intake-Manifold

The Part Numbers
Intake manifold P/N (includes all gasket, O-rings, mounting bolts): 68090674AA
SRV (short runner valve) actuator P/N: 5038529AA
Actuator bolts (3 required) P/N: 6509377AA
Pigtail connector: 1-68064996AA

Update 2011-05-19:
After testing the OEM actuator using a signal generator to simulate rpm and a digital oscilloscope to monitor pin 3 / 4 outputs, it became clear that readily available rpm switches used to control nitrous or transmission shift events would be ideal to control actuation at any rpm set-point.

When the actuator is first powered up, similar to the throttle body the actuator goes through one open / close cycle to confirm proper operation. NOTE: trying to make the actuator operate without a load (the manifold's actuator rods / valves) will result in irratic operation, or no movement at all.

Connectorship
I advise buying the proper pigtail / connector (1 of 68064996AA) from any number of OEM outlets. If you elect to forgo the connector, pin 1 is on the left as you are looking at the pins inside the (male) connector housing on the actuator with the driveshaft pointing downward. See the pigtail connector diagram below from Chrysler (the numbers 1 and 4 are cast into the pigtail connector housing). Below is the pin-out and connection protocol:

Pin 1: B+, switched (attach to a switched 12V source)
Pin 2: B- (attach to chassis ground)
Pin 3: signal, logic level (negative going)
Pin 4: signal, logic level, no connection (can be used to activate an annunciator)

Actuator Operation
Pins 3 and 4 of the actuator use logic-level (0 or 5V reference) protocol to initiate (pin 3 � shorted to ground) and confirm (pin 4 � logic low during short runner mode). Both pins I/O are low impendence. Pin 4 requires no connection, but must not short to ground GND or power B+.
Note: pin 4 sits a ~6.5VDC and goes low allowing the PCM to confirm proper operation of the actuator when the valves open. A typical 5mm LED (including blue) can be forward-biased (activated) by connecting the negative lead to pin 4 and the positive to pin 3. This would provide a visual aid to display the actuator has PWR, and when exceeding the rpm set-point (and valves open) the LED will turn off.

For an LED to activate above the set-point will require a small logic circuit to supply regulated current (in this case from B+) when the pin4 go low (at some point I�ll try and find an off-the-shelf a logic / driver module that makes it simpler for folks to install).

FYI; maximum current consumption during transition is ~2.6A. Steady-state (open or closed) is ~2-300mA.

The Set-point
Although the SRV system on the 392 HEMI�s transitions from long runner to short runner mode between 4800 and 4900rpm, this may vary a bit when the SRV system is mounted on other engine profiles. The best method of determining where to set rpm threshold will be to dyno in long runner mode to redline, then short runner mode. After a few pulls, compare the files looking for where they cross.

Something worth observing and discussing will be whether to make the rpm set-point value above to below the actual crossover point. It will be clear with different engine configurations the area under the curves will either drop off more rapidly, or gain more rapidly in one mode or the other. For example, if your engine�s global TQ gains are reducing quickly in long runner mode approaching the cross over, while in short runner mode it appears more area is under the curve just past to the crossover point, it would be prudent to lower the set-point to allow short runner mode to produce those gains at an earlier rpm.

Another thought is whether to use the individual TQ or HP areas under the curve to determine the set-point. IMO where this will come into play is on the strip where shift points occur and the resulting next-gear rpm commences.

UPDATE, 2015-01-26;
It's become evident across a number of different platforms that 4800rpm +50 is the set point. I originally thought larger displacement engines would need to have a lower set point given extra air flow. Ut seeing how more and more engines of differing displacements are also settling in around, if not right on, 4800rpm, something else is the main driver.

It's rather simple; for any given rpm, the rate at which the intake valves stop and start airflow within the runners is the same for any engine no matter what the engine displacement. It is this act that leads to runner length resonance being directly related to rpm - and not displacement.

In simple terms(?); the act of pumping more air (tuned resonance) into the combustion chambers during the intake stroke than would normally enter depends on what rpm is present to produce the reverse wavelengths, otherwise known as Helmholtz effect. This is precisely the same function long tube headers provide to extract more spent exhaust gasses out of the combustion chamber.

Update 2012-10-24:
After testing a number of rpm switches on the vehicle, it became evident EMI / RFI noise was gong to be an issue. Proper filtering of the incoming rpm signal, along with a normally open (NO) trigger, and receive rpm signal from either an injector or coil pack B- was essential. The most reliable rpm output turned out to be a primary winding feed to B- for the coils. To determine this I used my digital oscilloscope connected with with the scope riding on the front windshield and an RS232 cable running into the vehicle to allow logging to a laptop. This was a PITA as I needed to run 110AC out to the scope from a 12V invertor, but the results were definitely worth it. An appropriate window switch must have a normally open (NO) output that shorts to ground (GND) when the desired rpm threshold set point is crossed.

The MSD Ignition 8969, digital RPM window switch (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/msd-8969) took the lead and never gave it up throughout testing. Here's the connection map;
- Connect white lead to a negative coil lead at injector (all injectors across all platforms will have one color-coded lead in common - this is GND)
- Use yellow lead to trigger SRV actuator's pin3
- Configure the MSD controller for single cylinder operation (there are eight coils, so you want the unit to recognize single cylinder operation)
- Initially configure opening setpoint to 4800rpm (factory 392) until you can dyno in either mode to find crossover

Pigtail (OEM) Connector PN / pinout (note you are looking into the connector body in this pic, pin 1 and 4 are molded into housing):

UPDATE: 2013-01-13;

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 02/02/15 03:25 PM

Throttle body selection info pirated from another forum!
An LX member sent me a message asking, �What size TB do I need?�, and I realized that there really wasn�t a clear answer to his question. Oversize TBs are readily available, but they don�t come with any sort of recommendations or technical info to help with the decision. The vendors that offer these things aren�t even providing actual flow numbers for their products. The lack of info has cause TB selection to be quite the debatable topic. Therefore, I�m going to attempt to make some sense of the matter with the aid of an ordinary scientific calculator, a few common formulas, and even a little geometry.

First, I�ll explain in detail how flow area of each TB will be established. We�ll essentially determine effective flow area for each TB we want to use in our calculations. We are going to look at 80mm, 85mm, and 90mm. First we figure the total area of the round �hole�. We, then subtract the area of the 10mm throttle shaft. To improve accuracy, we�ll multiply this area by a value for discharge coefficient (cd). A reliable source tells me a 90mm TB flows 1006cfm at 20�/H2O. We�ll use this info to get our �cd�, and assume that all TB sizes exhibit this value. The math��

(90mm / 25.4)^2 x pi / 4 = 9.86in^2 bore area
(90mm / 25.4) x (10mm / 25.4) = 1.395in^2 throttle blade area
9.86in^2 � 1.40in^2 = 8.46in^2 total area

calculating theoretical max cfm from area�..

(20in/H2O)^.5 x 66.2 = 296.1fps
9.86in^2 x 299.1fps / 2.4 = 1054cfm (theoretical max)
1006cfm / 1054cfm = .955 cd
8.46in^2 x .955cd = 8.08in^2 effective flow area

�.Calculating for the other two sizes gives us the following values for our three TB sizes�.

80mm = 6.26in^2
85mm = 7.14in^2
90mm = 8.08in^2

In order to calculate the TB size we need, we must figure how much air we are using. ? For this, we can use the infamous �carb sizing� formula.

Eq.1 cfm = (CID x RPM x VE%) / 3456

If we look at the term �cfm�, or ft^3/m, we see that it is the product of an area(ft^2) and a velocity(ft/m), resulting in a simple flow analysis equation that can help determine the size we nee, based off of flow area.

Flow (cfm) = Area(ft^2) x Velocity(ft/m)

...adding a constant to convert units�..

Eq.2 cfm = in^2 x fps / 2.4

So we now have a simple way to solve for TB size, based on area, given that we have values for velocity and cfm. We�ve already tackled cfm. So, how do we our velocity values? 4bbl carbs are typically flowed at 1.5 inches of Hg. However, unrestricted carbureted engines typically see 0.8-1.2 inches of Hg at peak power. We�ll use these values, multiplying by 13.61 to convert from Hg to H2O. To get our velocity, we�ll use a formula common to any head porters who uses a pitot probe. Here are the formulas in action�..

Eq.3 (in/Hg x 13.61)^.5 x 66.2 = Velocity (fps)
(0.8 x 13.61)^.5 x 66.2 = 218.4fps
(1.2 x 13.61)^.5 x 66.2 = 267.5fps

Let�s take a look at what the factory did. We�ll use 5400rpm for the 5.7L engine and 6200rpm for the 6.1L mill. Let�s also use 100% VE for stock performance of 345hp and 440hp, respectively. Using Eq.1�..

(345 x 5400 x 100%) / 3456 = 539cfm
(370 x 6200 x 100%) / 3456 = 664cfm

Now we calculate for area. We�re going to use 218.4fps for the 5.7L and 267.5fps for the 6.1L. I�m wondering if the same TB that was designed from scratch for the 5.7L engine was used on the 6.1L simply to satisfy the accounting department. Let�s use Eq.2 and see��.

539cfm x 2.4 / 218.4fps = 5.923in^2
664cfm x 2.4 / 267.5fps = 5.957in^2

�We can also work the math backwards, plugging in 6.26in^2 for the stock TB�.

539cfm x 2.4 / 6.26in^2 = 206.6fps
664cfm x 2.4 / 6.26in^2 = 254.6fps

It appears that the decision to use the same TB on both engines was, indeed, made by the accountants. It also appears that they left a bit of room for a few bolt-on performance mods. Most importantly, the factory engineers agree with our .8-1.2 �/Hg range. Feeling confident with the math, let�s run the numbers for our fellow LX member and make a recommendation. He has a 423 stroker with ported heads and a custom grind cam suited for a 3600 stall TC, 5600 hp peak and a 6400 shift point with excellent VE%. Calculating for 0.8 and 1.2, or 218.4fps and 267.5fps, respectively�.

(423 x 5600 x 116%)/3456 = 795cfm
754cfm x 2.4 / 218.4 = 8.73in^s
754cfm x 2.4 / 267.5 = 7.13in^2

That particular engine would need a full 85mm at minimum and could make use of a TB even larger than the 90mm piece. I wouldn�t even recommend one of the ported stock jobs for this particular application. The stock throttle blade diameter is still the restriction. Of course, with the 85mm and the 90mm being the same price, he might as well go for the 90mm and be done with it.

At this point, someone is thinking, �yeah, yeah, but how power is it worth? And for how much?� Well, the dyno numbers and e.t. slips speak for themselves. However, power is determined by the air MASS we move through the engine and effectively burn. So, I done a little research and found a formula that calculates air density, based on barometric pressure and temperature. If temperature and VE% stay the same, we should be able to calculate, with fair accuracy, the change in air mass, thus power output. If VE% changes, then the difference will be even greater, meaning that our calculation is on the conservative side. We�ll use 29.921 �/Hg for standard barometric pressure. Doing all the math for the stock 80mm TB and the 90mm piece, we get 1.56�/Hg and .945�/Hg, respectively. 80�F seems like a reasonable number for intake temp. The calculation�.

Eq.4 1.325 x (inches of Hg / (temp�F + 460)) = air density
1.325 x (29.921-1.56) / (80+460) = .0696lbs/ft^3
1.325 x (29.921-.945) / (80+460) = .0711lbs/ft^3
.0711 / .0696 = 1.02

So, we would have a difference in mass of 2%, and that same difference in output. But, remember, this is assuming that VE% remains constant. In reality, the smaller TB would, indeed, cause a restriction in flow and have an adverse effect on VE%, making the difference even greater. Also, we would incur additional pumping losses from running under greater vacuum.

Alas, we shall remain conservative and take a look at this 2% from a cost perspective. It just so happens that the guy with the 6.1L Super Stock football upgraded his mill with heads and a cam, only to capture the 6.1L modified football. $3200 worth of parts netted him 59hp, or an increase of 13%. Add another $1000 for installation, and we get $323 per 1% increase. Cast TBs can be had for $500, resulting in the upgrade cost of $250 per1% increase. This means that a 90mm TB would have a higher bang for buck value than even a head/cam swap on a 423 stroker. If VE% differs between the stock and 90mm, even the shiny billet TBs begin to have a favorable bang for buck value on this size engine.

It is kind of unfair to do all the work for one guy, and leave everyone else out. Therefore, I made a nifty excel sheet to calculate for the most common Gen III Hemi displacements. I used VE% of 110 for the chart, suggesting a fairly stout, efficient package. Here, for the first time ever, is a chart to help with TB selection, based on rpm.

Using the chart is simple. If peak power is higher than the rpm in the 1.2 �/Hg column, or peak torque is higher than the rpm in the 0.8�/Hg column, then you should really consider an upgrade. If peak power is higher than the rpm in the 0.8�/Hg column, or your shift point is is higher than the rpm in the 1.2�.Hg, an upgrade can be of benefit in an �max-effort� application, but isn�t absolutely necessary. I even included accompanying power outputs, so you can also make a selection based off of expected N/A power.

Throttle Body Selection Chart
-----------80mm ----------85mm ---------90mm
---------0.8-1.2"/Hg ----0.8-1.2"/Hg ----0.8-1.2"/Hg
345_____5190-6360_____5920-7250_____6700-8200
370_____4840-5930_____5520-6760_____6250-7650
392_____4570-5590_____5210-6380_____5900-7220
426_____4200-5150_____4790-5870_____5420-6640
440_____4070-4980_____4640-5680_____5250-6430
N/A hp____360-500_______440-580_______510-660

Now, let�s take a look for the forced induction guys. A lot of people seem to think that the blower cars could benefit from a larger TB even more than the N/A guys. Let�s take a look. I will be using some additional formulas, mainly intended to help with compressor selection. The main differences are in air density and temperature, although I�ll be looking at flow before the compressor, too, for those who are entertaining the idea of relocating the TB to this place. The standard �carb sizing� formula is used here as well, suggesting that the engine determines the actual volume of air that is moved. The compressor only changes density, by way of temperature and boost. We must find a way to determine the temp of the air going in the engine. To do this we first figure temp of the air exiting the compressor. Then, we use our intercooler efficiency to get the actual temp. Here are those formulas�.

Eq.5 (boost psi + 14.7) / 14.7 = pressure ratio
Eq.6 ((Inlet temp�F + 460) x (pressure ratio)^.283) - 460 � Inlet temp�F = Ideal temp�F rise
Eq.7 Ideal temp rise / adiabatic efficiency + Inlet temp�F = actual compressor outlet temp
Eq.8 -1 x ( intercooler(IC) efficiency x ( IC temp�F in � temp�F ambient) � IC temp�F in) = IC temp�F out
Eq.9 ( Inlet temp�F + 460) /( IC temp�F out + 460 ) x pressure ratio = Density ratio
Eq.10 Outlet cfm x Density ratio = Inlet cfm

Although these formulas have a variety of uses, we�re only interested in using them for TB selection. Looking at Eq.10, we see that the changes in boost pressure and temp, therefore air density, only changes the inlet cfm requirements. Outlet cfm remains the same and is cal�d, using Eq.1. This is good news for those who have their TB after the compressor, like the Procharger systems. Because of the increased �outlet� temperature, it gets even better. The higher temps raise the speed of sound. The higher �mach speed� makes the engine think everything is larger in size, and will literally move your power band up in rpms. In essence the same size TB, after the compressor, will support even more rpms when used with boost. Sticking with the �calculation� theme, here is a formula to estimate the effects�.

Eq.11 old rpm peak x ((outlet temp�F + 460) / (inlet temp�F + 460))^.5 = new rpm peak

We�ll use our friend�s 423 again for the example, adding 10 psi boost at 80�F ambient. We�ll also use 75% for both compressor adiabatic efficiency and IC efficiency.

(10 + 14.7) / 14.7 = 1.68 pressure ratio
(80+460) x (1.68)^.283 � 460 � 80 = 85�F ideal temp rise
85 / .75 + 80 = 193�F actual compressor outlet temp
-1 x ( .75 x (193-80)-193) = 108�F final temp out
(80 + 460)/(108 + 460) x 1.68 = 1.597 density ratio
5600 x ((108 + 460) / (80 + 460))^.5 = 5740 new rpm peak
5740 / 5600 x 1.597 = 1.636

�Or a 64% increase in output at approx. 150rpms higher with the exact same TB. What happens if we use a roots-type blower, or move the TB to the inlet side of the compressor? We can use our density ratio to figure this out, keeping in mind that the inlet side is still at ambient temp. Remember that demand was calc�d to be 795cfm�

795 outlet cfm x 1.64 = 1300 inlet cfm

Woah!!!! Vacuum at WOT just jumped to 2.5�/Hg with a 90mm TB. Relocating the TB to the front of the compressor would cause a huge restriction�.Unless you were to use two of them.

It is my hope that all of these equations and examples will help make sense of TB selection for a variety of applications, and helps to explain �why� the larger TBs work. I also hope that the readers of this write-up will become a little more knowledgeable about their hotrods and the parts they are purchasing for them. Most importantly, when someone asks about a 90mm TB, we�ll have some real info to go with all of our �marketing� claims.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 02/15/15 04:00 PM

Cam retaining bolt is ONE USE ONLY!

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Pistons - 02/16/15 09:16 PM

Check cam end play on any combo using a different or new cam that has not bee successfully run. Some aftermarket cams have too little end play, causing scoring and broken pins, bent valves.

Posted By: biff426

Re: Pistons - 02/18/15 04:19 PM

Quote:

Check cam end play on any combo using a different or new cam that has not bee successfully run. Some aftermarket cams have too little end play, causing scoring and broken pins, bent valves.

Well upon further investigation it is not really a cam end play issue the problem is the snout of the cam is not long enough and when you torque the cam bolt it pinches the thrust plate between the face of the cam and the timing gear. It is tight enough to be a problem but not tight enough to "feel" tight when you spin the engine by hand when assembled but if you torque the gear on with no chain you can barely turn it. I think it is more a problem with the cam then the timing set.

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

RnR heads in car with head studs e body - 02/23/15 10:33 AM

I've had my motor mocked up in the car for a few weeks now, going to take it to the machine shop. Wanted to know if you can RnR the heads with head studs. The answer is yes. The passenger side head was close to hitting the the shock stud, but cleared it just fine.

Posted By: Moparmal

Mod Man misery......... - 02/26/15 05:37 AM

The following is a detailed chronology of my efforts to get the Indy Modman intake to work efficiently on my Gen 3 HEMI.

While I have never had any complaints about the finish or workmanship of this intake �the following experiences should serve as a caution anyone planning on using this intake for qtr mile racing.

All tuning changes were validated both on the same dyno and at the track in similar DA.

I have been tuning Carter and Edelbrock carbs for thirty years and am fully aware of the processes required in re-calibration and enhancements.

1st tune � Single 800CFM AVS Thunder carb
333 RWHP � 110.8 MPH � 12.4 sec qtr - 1.94 60ft
Comment - Lean bog very apparent on launch

2nd tune - Drilled pump shooter to .040th � 1.91 60ft
Comment � No bog if I rolled on the throttle, but sluggish response

3rd tune � Pro Systems 830 cfm � 50cc Primary pump shot, 30cc secondary
No dyno � 109.8 mph � 12.4 sec � 1.84 60ft
Comment � No bog but sluggish 60 ft

4th tune � Twin Edlebrock 500cfm Performer carbs � drilled shooters to .040th
No dyno � 111.1 mph � 12.39 sec - 1.91 60ft
Comment� Slight bog unless I rolled in the throttle...improved top end.

5th tune � Twin Edelbrocks with twin Brodix turtles inserted in plenum
Comment - No change

6th tune � Twin Edelbrocks with full height divider along length of plenum � increased initial timing from 15 to 21 deg .
348.7 RWHP � 114.3 MPH � 11.9 sec - 1.82 60ft

This has been the best result achieved. The 60 ft is still woeful for the mph and HP but the MPH jumped significantly.

NOTES

� Traction not a factor in any testing...simply not making enough initial torque to be a concern!

- No modification of air bleeds with Holley, just jetting.

- The Modman plenum volume results in a significant loss of signal and requires a MAMMOTH pump shot to overcome the overall plenum volume requirements.

- The full height divider I ran was also �� wide, serving to occupy some plenum space as well as improve the signal.

- The car 60 footed better when I rolled on the throttle than when I rugged it in every scenario.

- Stalling up had a negative effect � often resulting in a bigger bog. I have determined this was because stalling uses up some of the �tip in� travel hence a smaller pump shot.

- The cam I ran was a HR with [Email]219@.50[/Email] � It does not require a big converter , nor really high gears, so this was not contributing to the issue .

Summary

On the street, no one would ever guess that these issues were to arise at the track..until I did some street tuning on drag radials. It was only then I noticed the car struggled to turn the tyres on the street until tune #6.

This problem manifested even worse at the track.

I hope to be able to provide a comparative using the Edelbrock dual plane dual quad in a couple of months time � but I'm already certain the 60 fts will be largely better�even if top end MPH stays appx the same.

Conclusion

The Modman is a show/supercharger intake � pure and simple.

It may function better with a large cube motor � but as it runs a plenum that is 5x the volume of a normal single plane M1, I would still recommend experimenting with a divider.

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Main Bearings question - 02/28/15 09:12 PM

Are you guys using the OE main bearings that are selective fit? i.e. "lettered" bearings, or who do you prefer. I need to use 6.4L bearings in my block but the selection seems pretty limited out there. I would like to use a coated bearing, the surface finish on the OE bearings is surprisingly rough.

Posted By: CHAPPER

Re: Main Bearings question - 02/28/15 09:50 PM

I used ACL bearings with the Molnar crank and rods. 1100+ 3/8 mile laps and all look new.

I have been using the stock thrust bearing and amazed at how well it holds up.

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Main Bearings question - 03/01/15 02:47 AM

Thanks, I'll look into that

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 03/03/15 01:21 AM

Quote:

Throttle body selection info pirated from another forum!
An LX member sent me a message asking, �What size TB do I need?�, and I realized that there really wasn�t a clear answer to his question. Oversize TBs are readily available, but they don�t come with any sort of recommendations or technical info to help with the decision. The vendors that offer these things aren�t even providing actual flow numbers for their products. The lack of info has cause TB selection to be quite the debatable topic. Therefore, I�m going to attempt to make some sense of the matter with the aid of an ordinary scientific calculator, a few common formulas, and even a little geometry.

First, I�ll explain in detail how flow area of each TB will be established. We�ll essentially determine effective flow area for each TB we want to use in our calculations. We are going to look at 80mm, 85mm, and 90mm. First we figure the total area of the round �hole�. We, then subtract the area of the 10mm throttle shaft. To improve accuracy, we�ll multiply this area by a value for discharge coefficient (cd). A reliable source tells me a 90mm TB flows 1006cfm at 20�/H2O. We�ll use this info to get our �cd�, and assume that all TB sizes exhibit this value. The math��

(90mm / 25.4)^2 x pi / 4 = 9.86in^2 bore area
(90mm / 25.4) x (10mm / 25.4) = 1.395in^2 throttle blade area
9.86in^2 � 1.40in^2 = 8.46in^2 total area

calculating theoretical max cfm from area�..

(20in/H2O)^.5 x 66.2 = 296.1fps
9.86in^2 x 299.1fps / 2.4 = 1054cfm (theoretical max)
1006cfm / 1054cfm = .955 cd
8.46in^2 x .955cd = 8.08in^2 effective flow area

�.Calculating for the other two sizes gives us the following values for our three TB sizes�.

80mm = 6.26in^2
85mm = 7.14in^2
90mm = 8.08in^2

In order to calculate the TB size we need, we must figure how much air we are using. ? For this, we can use the infamous �carb sizing� formula.

Eq.1 cfm = (CID x RPM x VE%) / 3456

If we look at the term �cfm�, or ft^3/m, we see that it is the product of an area(ft^2) and a velocity(ft/m), resulting in a simple flow analysis equation that can help determine the size we nee, based off of flow area.

Flow (cfm) = Area(ft^2) x Velocity(ft/m)

...adding a constant to convert units�..

Eq.2 cfm = in^2 x fps / 2.4

So we now have a simple way to solve for TB size, based on area, given that we have values for velocity and cfm. We�ve already tackled cfm. So, how do we our velocity values? 4bbl carbs are typically flowed at 1.5 inches of Hg. However, unrestricted carbureted engines typically see 0.8-1.2 inches of Hg at peak power. We�ll use these values, multiplying by 13.61 to convert from Hg to H2O. To get our velocity, we�ll use a formula common to any head porters who uses a pitot probe. Here are the formulas in action�..

Eq.3 (in/Hg x 13.61)^.5 x 66.2 = Velocity (fps)
(0.8 x 13.61)^.5 x 66.2 = 218.4fps
(1.2 x 13.61)^.5 x 66.2 = 267.5fps

Let�s take a look at what the factory did. We�ll use 5400rpm for the 5.7L engine and 6200rpm for the 6.1L mill. Let�s also use 100% VE for stock performance of 345hp and 440hp, respectively. Using Eq.1�..

(345 x 5400 x 100%) / 3456 = 539cfm
(370 x 6200 x 100%) / 3456 = 664cfm

Now we calculate for area. We�re going to use 218.4fps for the 5.7L and 267.5fps for the 6.1L. I�m wondering if the same TB that was designed from scratch for the 5.7L engine was used on the 6.1L simply to satisfy the accounting department. Let�s use Eq.2 and see��.

539cfm x 2.4 / 218.4fps = 5.923in^2
664cfm x 2.4 / 267.5fps = 5.957in^2

�We can also work the math backwards, plugging in 6.26in^2 for the stock TB�.

539cfm x 2.4 / 6.26in^2 = 206.6fps
664cfm x 2.4 / 6.26in^2 = 254.6fps

It appears that the decision to use the same TB on both engines was, indeed, made by the accountants. It also appears that they left a bit of room for a few bolt-on performance mods. Most importantly, the factory engineers agree with our .8-1.2 �/Hg range. Feeling confident with the math, let�s run the numbers for our fellow LX member and make a recommendation. He has a 423 stroker with ported heads and a custom grind cam suited for a 3600 stall TC, 5600 hp peak and a 6400 shift point with excellent VE%. Calculating for 0.8 and 1.2, or 218.4fps and 267.5fps, respectively�.

(423 x 5600 x 116%)/3456 = 795cfm
754cfm x 2.4 / 218.4 = 8.73in^s
754cfm x 2.4 / 267.5 = 7.13in^2

That particular engine would need a full 85mm at minimum and could make use of a TB even larger than the 90mm piece. I wouldn�t even recommend one of the ported stock jobs for this particular application. The stock throttle blade diameter is still the restriction. Of course, with the 85mm and the 90mm being the same price, he might as well go for the 90mm and be done with it.

At this point, someone is thinking, �yeah, yeah, but how power is it worth? And for how much?� Well, the dyno numbers and e.t. slips speak for themselves. However, power is determined by the air MASS we move through the engine and effectively burn. So, I done a little research and found a formula that calculates air density, based on barometric pressure and temperature. If temperature and VE% stay the same, we should be able to calculate, with fair accuracy, the change in air mass, thus power output. If VE% changes, then the difference will be even greater, meaning that our calculation is on the conservative side. We�ll use 29.921 �/Hg for standard barometric pressure. Doing all the math for the stock 80mm TB and the 90mm piece, we get 1.56�/Hg and .945�/Hg, respectively. 80�F seems like a reasonable number for intake temp. The calculation�.

Eq.4 1.325 x (inches of Hg / (temp�F + 460)) = air density
1.325 x (29.921-1.56) / (80+460) = .0696lbs/ft^3
1.325 x (29.921-.945) / (80+460) = .0711lbs/ft^3
.0711 / .0696 = 1.02

So, we would have a difference in mass of 2%, and that same difference in output. But, remember, this is assuming that VE% remains constant. In reality, the smaller TB would, indeed, cause a restriction in flow and have an adverse effect on VE%, making the difference even greater. Also, we would incur additional pumping losses from running under greater vacuum.

Alas, we shall remain conservative and take a look at this 2% from a cost perspective. It just so happens that the guy with the 6.1L Super Stock football upgraded his mill with heads and a cam, only to capture the 6.1L modified football. $3200 worth of parts netted him 59hp, or an increase of 13%. Add another $1000 for installation, and we get $323 per 1% increase. Cast TBs can be had for $500, resulting in the upgrade cost of $250 per1% increase. This means that a 90mm TB would have a higher bang for buck value than even a head/cam swap on a 423 stroker. If VE% differs between the stock and 90mm, even the shiny billet TBs begin to have a favorable bang for buck value on this size engine.

It is kind of unfair to do all the work for one guy, and leave everyone else out. Therefore, I made a nifty excel sheet to calculate for the most common Gen III Hemi displacements. I used VE% of 110 for the chart, suggesting a fairly stout, efficient package. Here, for the first time ever, is a chart to help with TB selection, based on rpm.

Using the chart is simple. If peak power is higher than the rpm in the 1.2 �/Hg column, or peak torque is higher than the rpm in the 0.8�/Hg column, then you should really consider an upgrade. If peak power is higher than the rpm in the 0.8�/Hg column, or your shift point is is higher than the rpm in the 1.2�.Hg, an upgrade can be of benefit in an �max-effort� application, but isn�t absolutely necessary. I even included accompanying power outputs, so you can also make a selection based off of expected N/A power.

Throttle Body Selection Chart
-----------80mm ----------85mm ---------90mm
---------0.8-1.2"/Hg ----0.8-1.2"/Hg ----0.8-1.2"/Hg
345_____5190-6360_____5920-7250_____6700-8200
370_____4840-5930_____5520-6760_____6250-7650
392_____4570-5590_____5210-6380_____5900-7220
426_____4200-5150_____4790-5870_____5420-6640
440_____4070-4980_____4640-5680_____5250-6430
N/A hp____360-500_______440-580_______510-660

Now, let�s take a look for the forced induction guys. A lot of people seem to think that the blower cars could benefit from a larger TB even more than the N/A guys. Let�s take a look. I will be using some additional formulas, mainly intended to help with compressor selection. The main differences are in air density and temperature, although I�ll be looking at flow before the compressor, too, for those who are entertaining the idea of relocating the TB to this place. The standard �carb sizing� formula is used here as well, suggesting that the engine determines the actual volume of air that is moved. The compressor only changes density, by way of temperature and boost. We must find a way to determine the temp of the air going in the engine. To do this we first figure temp of the air exiting the compressor. Then, we use our intercooler efficiency to get the actual temp. Here are those formulas�.

Eq.5 (boost psi + 14.7) / 14.7 = pressure ratio
Eq.6 ((Inlet temp�F + 460) x (pressure ratio)^.283) - 460 � Inlet temp�F = Ideal temp�F rise
Eq.7 Ideal temp rise / adiabatic efficiency + Inlet temp�F = actual compressor outlet temp
Eq.8 -1 x ( intercooler(IC) efficiency x ( IC temp�F in � temp�F ambient) � IC temp�F in) = IC temp�F out
Eq.9 ( Inlet temp�F + 460) /( IC temp�F out + 460 ) x pressure ratio = Density ratio
Eq.10 Outlet cfm x Density ratio = Inlet cfm

Although these formulas have a variety of uses, we�re only interested in using them for TB selection. Looking at Eq.10, we see that the changes in boost pressure and temp, therefore air density, only changes the inlet cfm requirements. Outlet cfm remains the same and is cal�d, using Eq.1. This is good news for those who have their TB after the compressor, like the Procharger systems. Because of the increased �outlet� temperature, it gets even better. The higher temps raise the speed of sound. The higher �mach speed� makes the engine think everything is larger in size, and will literally move your power band up in rpms. In essence the same size TB, after the compressor, will support even more rpms when used with boost. Sticking with the �calculation� theme, here is a formula to estimate the effects�.

Eq.11 old rpm peak x ((outlet temp�F + 460) / (inlet temp�F + 460))^.5 = new rpm peak

We�ll use our friend�s 423 again for the example, adding 10 psi boost at 80�F ambient. We�ll also use 75% for both compressor adiabatic efficiency and IC efficiency.

(10 + 14.7) / 14.7 = 1.68 pressure ratio
(80+460) x (1.68)^.283 � 460 � 80 = 85�F ideal temp rise
85 / .75 + 80 = 193�F actual compressor outlet temp
-1 x ( .75 x (193-80)-193) = 108�F final temp out
(80 + 460)/(108 + 460) x 1.68 = 1.597 density ratio
5600 x ((108 + 460) / (80 + 460))^.5 = 5740 new rpm peak
5740 / 5600 x 1.597 = 1.636

�Or a 64% increase in output at approx. 150rpms higher with the exact same TB. What happens if we use a roots-type blower, or move the TB to the inlet side of the compressor? We can use our density ratio to figure this out, keeping in mind that the inlet side is still at ambient temp. Remember that demand was calc�d to be 795cfm�

795 outlet cfm x 1.64 = 1300 inlet cfm

Woah!!!! Vacuum at WOT just jumped to 2.5�/Hg with a 90mm TB. Relocating the TB to the front of the compressor would cause a huge restriction�.Unless you were to use two of them.

It is my hope that all of these equations and examples will help make sense of TB selection for a variety of applications, and helps to explain �why� the larger TBs work. I also hope that the readers of this write-up will become a little more knowledgeable about their hotrods and the parts they are purchasing for them. Most importantly, when someone asks about a 90mm TB, we�ll have some real info to go with all of our �marketing� claims.

If i was as smart as this guy i would rule the world, my head is still swimming. I will have to read back and forth many times to grasp what he saying. Mechanical i can understand but electronics, can't get in my mind.

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Hemi - 03/03/15 01:37 AM

Quote:

This link has some good intake manifold info.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...ID=#Post8387608

what is the reason the 6.4 intake won't fit the 5.7,line up,too big,wrong spacing? I saw the one in the truck

Posted By: MattW

Re: Hemi - 03/03/15 01:40 AM

Which 5.7?
The early one the ports are smaller and it will interfere with the front of the block.
Later the ports are the same size but do not know about block interference.
The intake can be massaged.

Matt

Posted By: Adrielp

Re: Geometry Question - 03/04/15 04:33 PM

What is the standard bore spacing for the Gen 3 hemi?

What is the OEM lifter bore angle for the intake and exhaust?

What is the cam height(crank center to cam center)?

What are the bolt pattern dimensions for the head? (Bolt spacing horizontally and vertically, and is the pattern centered on the bore)

Last, anyone have lifter dimensions in reference to the bore centerline?
(Knowing the cam height and lifter angle gives you one dimension, but you need another dimension to the bore centerline to get the other)

I hope someone in here knows, thanks!

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Hemi - 03/05/15 01:01 AM

Quote:

Which 5.7?
The early one the ports are smaller and it will interfere with the front of the block.
Later the ports are the same size but do not know about block interference.
The intake can be massaged.
Matt

Just picked up a 06 car and 07 jeep 5.7, both spun bearings. Are these considered early blocks? Did you mean the head ports can be opened up to fit 6.1 intake? How much power difference would you guess between the two intakes, 5.7-6.1? I'm now going back to read this whole post again to get some insite on building this engine, most bang for the buck so to speak.

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Geometry Question - 03/05/15 05:40 AM

go to the Arrow racing website, download the aluminum block pdf. documents (there are 3), they are the only ones I've seen that have the dimensions and specs you are looking for...the aluminum block is patterned after the iron block

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Geometry Question - 03/06/15 08:52 PM

Question on those lifter switches(4). Can they stay or remove them?

Posted By: Copper Dart

Re: Geometry Question - 03/06/15 09:11 PM

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Geometry Question - 03/06/15 09:39 PM

Quote:

Question on those lifter switches(4). Can they stay or remove them?

either or...leave in unplug and use non mds lifters or remove and use the 6.1 plug for the hole and use non mds lifters

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Geometry Question - 03/07/15 01:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Question on those lifter switches(4). Can they stay or remove them?

either or...leave in unplug and use non mds lifters or remove and use the 6.1 plug for the hole and use non mds lifters

Could you tell me the difference between the lifters,mds and non mds? Will there be a problem with them as is, won't rev,can't use with bigger cam,etc..if just unplugged?

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Geometry Question - 03/07/15 02:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Question on those lifter switches(4). Can they stay or remove them?

either or...leave in unplug and use non mds lifters or remove and use the 6.1 plug for the hole and use non mds lifters

Could you tell me the difference between the lifters,mds and non mds? Will there be a problem with them as is, won't rev,can't use with bigger cam,etc..if just unplugged?

unplugged is fine. i do not know the exact difference , but i know for sure, there is a difference.

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Geometry Question - 03/07/15 07:01 AM

5.7L HEMI� MDS Operation
Both four- and eight-cylinder configurations of MDS have even firing intervals,providing smooth operation. Two cylinders on each bank are active when the engine is in four-cylinder mode � every other cylinder in the firing order. All of the cylinders that are deactivated have unique hydraulic valve lifters that collapse
when deactivated to prevent the valves from opening. Engine oil pressure is used to activate and deactivate the valves. Oil is delivered through special oil passages drilled into the cylinder block. Solenoid valves control the flow. When activated, pressurized oil pushes latching pins on each valve lifter, which then becomes a �lost motion� link. Its base follows the camshaft, but its top remains stationary, held in place against the pushrod by light spring pressure but unable to move because of the much higher force of the valve spring. Deactivation occurs during the compression stroke of each cylinder, after air and fuel enter the cylinder. Ignition then occurs, but the combustion products remain
trapped in the cylinder under high pressure, because the valves no longer open. No air enters or leaves. During subsequent piston strokes, this high-pressure gas is repeatedly compressed and expanded like an air spring, but fuel is not injected. 2009+ MY 5.7L HEMI� MDS lifters where redesigned to allow for more camshaft lift when deactivated. These newer lifters can be used in prior model year 5.7L engines.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Geometry Question - 03/07/15 08:53 AM

How cool is that! ^^^^^. !!

Posted By: Moparmal

New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/07/15 08:57 AM

Ok...first notes:

Tuning.

Idle was about the same AF - with similar vacuum of around 18"

Cruise needed to be leaned out one step on the rods

Primaries power stage needing leaning one step on the rods

Secondary jets needed leaning one or two stages - will depend on weather (082 to .080/.077)

Pump shot backed off to second hole indicates most constant mixture at launch on gauge

Observations

Most obvious was the much smoother idle...even the wife commented that it sounded less 'spitty'

Second is that the 'light switch' issue where it suddenly came on at around 2500 with the Modman has disappeared completely - there is a completely smooth torque curve from idle to 6800rpm

Car is noticeably quicker when transitioning from cruise to WOT in top gear - the change in diff ratio obviously helps...but again it feels like it comes 'on song' straight away...no 'sogginess' or lag.

The induction noise sounds completely different....and SO MUCH BETTER - sounds much more like the old Thermoquad 'roar'..I wont have any track results for a few mths.....but Im completely confident my 60 ft times will be better as it responds so much more sharply than before.

Attached picture 8452213-image.jpg

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/07/15 09:43 PM

Been considering a 392 cam for wifes Charger to keep MDS and the 28mpg the thing is capable of right now.

Posted By: Cevidicus

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/07/15 11:39 PM

Quote:

Been considering a 392 cam for wifes Charger to keep MDS and the 28mpg the thing is capable of right now.

That's what I'll be running in my vvt 5.7. I've read all kinds of comments and outcomes from using that cam. From zero hp gain to 60rwhp(which I've never seen duplicated). Most seem to get about 20-30 rwhp out of it. That's with pretty much no gains until 4000rpm. Then it kicks in. Also those with gains don't seem to be using the phaser limiters. Several that did did not show any gains. I bought mine for 55 3 years ago. But they have gone up. Still needs a good set of springs.

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Intake gaskets - 03/08/15 05:38 PM

Has anyone priced cranks for 6.1- 6.4 new? Or would the after market be a better buy? Weighing all the options for the 5.7 block. What's the opinion of taking this block to 4 inches(for more piston blanks and rings choices)? This is one of the dumbest things Chrysler did not do! I'll have more questions down the road. Later

Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/08/15 08:55 PM

Quote:

Ok...first notes:

Tuning.

Idle was about the same AF - with similar vacuum of around 18"

Cruise needed to be leaned out one step on the rods

Primaries power stage needing leaning one step on the rods

Secondary jets needed leaning one or two stages - will depend on weather (082 to .080/.077)

Pump shot backed off to second hole indicates most constant mixture at launch on gauge

Observations

Most obvious was the much smoother idle...even the wife commented that it sounded less 'spitty'

Second is that the 'light switch' issue where it suddenly came on at around 2500 with the Modman has disappeared completely - there is a completely smooth torque curve from idle to 6800rpm

Car is noticeably quicker when transitioning from cruise to WOT in top gear - the change in diff ratio obviously helps...but again it feels like it comes 'on song' straight away...no 'sogginess' or lag.

The induction noise sounds completely different....and SO MUCH BETTER - sounds much more like the old Thermoquad 'roar'..I wont have any track results for a few mths.....but Im completely confident my 60 ft times will be better as it responds so much more sharply than before.

Does that intake have a 6.1 port window or an early 5.7 one?

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/10/15 03:52 AM

Mine has the 5.7 port widow...so I gasket matched the heads to provide a better entrance way....

There is now a 6.1 Eddy dual quad available...but its over $100 more expensive....

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/10/15 04:18 PM

Is that all the difference there is between the 6.1 and 5.7 intakes matching up? Everyone made it sound like it was a 1/2 inch off and to much to make work. I would expect a little port matching. Feel better now about using the 5.7 head.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/11/15 10:42 AM

The 5.7 is also a tad narrower - but when travelling from small to larger openings, that type of 'step' is not going to interupt flow.

The step caused by the more rectangular port face of the 5.7 certainly woulde have created flow issues...hence my marginal gasket matching attempt.

Idealy you'd probably take down the inside of the runner for really improved flow.

Posted By: Kevins493

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/11/15 12:40 PM

While the idea that a rapid transition to a larger cross-section doesn't hurt flow seems logical, it turns out that the exact opposite is actually true. A large portion of what I do for a living involves fluid flow analysis and what I have found is that an abrupt enlargement can actually be more harmful than an abrupt contraction in cross-section due to the higher velocity and the turbulance and flow separation that occur at the transition. What this means is that you will want a smooth, long transition with any change in cross-section area.

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/13/15 04:14 AM

Been going over my 5.7 engine and have a few things to talk about. First one is the heads, seems they can be used on either side, not having to use a left and right. In fact if buying new head just buy two driver side if not using the egr. The reason i tried this i was thinking of using a turbo with the stock manifolds so its just a mater of reversing the heads. There are a few bolt holes to drill and plug the egr hole. The measurement to outside of manifolds is 29 inches, enough to fit inside an a-body frame. I put the intake back on and no issues there and the push rod holes are in the right place. Of course i don't know about the newer heads, just 5.7. The oil passages are a lot of 90 degree turns from the oil pump to the mains so a long carbide burr ball could ease those sharp corners and be opened up a little. This should aid flow to the crank. As i see more I'll keep posting.

Attached picture 8458279-IMG_1060.JPG

Posted By: onig

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/13/15 02:20 PM

In regards to the left and right head.
EGR is one issue, just plug as you mentioned.
I have a set of Apache heads and are L & R.
It is the oil drain-back holes that you need to look for, I am guessing that the 5.7 are the same as well. But check to make sure. I have circled where the oil hole is, as you can see because of this they are not interchangeable. I believe the hole can be drilled as there is material there to make a hole.

Also on these heads the exhaust manifold holes are drilled differently but can easily be drilled and taped as there is plenty of material there as well.
Just check your 5.7 heads to make sure all is OK with the oil drain-back.
Let us know what you find.
I have 5.7 but it is still sitting on a shelf.

Posted By: onig

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/13/15 02:21 PM

By the way, what year is that engine and what did it come out of?

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/13/15 04:24 PM

06 and 07. You are right, the drain back hole would have to be drilled. The problem I see is closing the other hole since the head gasket is dead center. Plugged and milled flat. Plug one and drill another or make headers, not sure what would be easier for most people. At least with headers they can be placed in the best spot. Thank you Chrysler.
The water hole would need grinding too.

Posted By: krw71ragtop

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/17/15 04:51 AM

I have some questions on the 5.7 engines. Will the heads, intake, cam, oil pump, and timing set from a 2003 truck engine interchange on a 2014 short block truck engine ? I have both engines complete but the 2003 engines oil pump failed and wiped out the rod and main bearings.

I was hoping I could take the heads and freshen them up on the 2003 engine and bolt them and the intake on the 2014 motor. I'm guessing since the 2014 engine has the vvt that the cam shaft, lifters, pushrods, timing set would be different ? Would the block and pistons be different ? Not sure how much they changed the block, what will and won't plug in, or if all the accessories on the front of the engine from the 03 will bolt on the 14 ? I'm just trying to save some time and money by using what I have. Otherwise I'll have to rebuild the 2003 motor while the 2014 motor takes up floor space in my garage!

Posted By: StricNine

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 03/17/15 08:46 PM

Quote:

I have some questions on the 5.7 engines. Will the heads, intake, cam, oil pump, and timing set from a 2003 truck engine interchange on a 2014 short block truck engine ? I have both engines complete but the 2003 engines oil pump failed and wiped out the rod and main bearings.

I was hoping I could take the heads and freshen them up on the 2003 engine and bolt them and the intake on the 2014 motor. I'm guessing since the 2014 engine has the vvt that the cam shaft, lifters, pushrods, timing set would be different ? Would the block and pistons be different ? Not sure how much they changed the block, what will and won't plug in, or if all the accessories on the front of the engine from the 03 will bolt on the 14 ? I'm just trying to save some time and money by using what I have. Otherwise I'll have to rebuild the 2003 motor while the 2014 motor takes up floor space in my garage!

Lifters: Keep the '14 lifters, they support higher lift with MDS, and can be used to replace lifters in 08 and older 5.7's.
Cam: No
Timing Set: No
Pushrods: No, Eagle head valves are taller.
Intake/Head pair work together. Fitment on a 09+ block? Don't know, if they do the older heads have larger chambers and will drop compression. I'd recommend Eagle intake/heads over the older 5.7's. Also the Eagle truck intake, I believe, has short/long runners controlled by the PCM.

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: New Eddy dual quad vs old DQ Modman - first notes - 04/05/15 02:36 AM

Make sure your machine shop of choice has a torque plate for the block you are using. DAHIK

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 04/26/15 05:40 AM

Don't forget the oil galley plug in the front of the engine, didn't know it existed until today....

Attached picture 426ShortBlock_front_small.jpg

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/01/15 07:59 PM

Can the stock cams be reground?Could save some cash that way I would think. Probably have to harden the lobes, but they do that to the new ones anyway right?

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/02/15 03:35 PM

Originally Posted By cudaman1969

Can the stock cams be reground?Could save some cash that way I would think. Probably have to harden the lobes, but they do that to the new ones anyway right?

Hughes had some regrinds listed on their web site. There are limits, due to the stock lobe dimensions and LSA . Depending on what you want to do, a custom cam may really be needed. In a deal like my build, (stroker, big heads, not as worried about torque below 2,500, totally programmable computer) it only makes sense to have one cut, or in my case grab a drag pack cam if you can find one cheap!

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/03/15 10:01 PM

If you add external oiling to the block, the fittings may interfere with the back of the alternator

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/04/15 05:24 AM

Originally Posted By ntstlgl1970

If you add external oiling to the block, the fittings may interfere with the back of the alternator

That is why I used a remote filter adapter instead of the block off plate.

Attached picture IMAG0082_zpspjus7u3t.JPG

Posted By: sogtx

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/05/15 02:00 AM

What did i do wrong ?

Attached picture image.jpg

Posted By: sogtx

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/05/15 02:31 AM

I guess u cant believe all on the net ..

Attached picture image.jpg

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/05/15 03:43 AM

Those idlers are for a VVT engine which has all the accessories spaced out further, about 1/2".

Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/05/15 04:21 AM

Does anyone know the difference between an apache head and a hellcat?

I am aware they are a different alloy, but what about valves, springs, flow, etc. Thanks!

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/05/15 04:50 AM

I have one set of 5.7 heads where the valve seats( intakes) came out. Any procedures on making sure they stay put in my other set, these are 08 heads.

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/05/15 04:49 PM

Originally Posted By hudsonhornet7x

Does anyone know the difference between an apache head and a hellcat?

I am aware they are a different alloy, but what about valves, springs, flow, etc. Thanks!

The hellcat heads don't interchange, the intake manifold bolt pattern is different to mount the supercharger.

look at this picture from a hellcat supercharger on ebay

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/OTA0WDE2MDA=/z/lDMAAOSwBahVLVwH/$_57.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/e9MAAOSwBLlVKmRn/$_57.JPG

I save the pictures before they disappear. It does look like you could have the intake bolt pattern drilled to match the eagle/apache/6.1L heads since the bosses are cast into the head but undrilled.

Attached picture $_57.JPG

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/06/15 03:13 AM

Originally Posted By sogtx

What did i do wrong ?

i had the snout on mine machined down 5/8. Others have had the neck cut and rewelded

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/07/15 04:27 AM

Which holes of the 5.7 crank mains should be plugged, there are 4? Read this back a ways but can't find the post

Posted By: sogtx

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/08/15 02:56 AM

Originally Posted By mcat4321

Originally Posted By sogtx

What did i do wrong ?

i had the snout on mine machined down 5/8. Others have had the neck cut and rewelded

Thanks for heads up .. I did t want to weld it ...:(
Any pics you can share of your finished mod ?

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/14/15 11:40 PM

I know this is about the engines but has anyone tried using the 5 speed automatic in a non computer controlled car. Just looking at it reminds me of a big can of snakes, but it sure would be cool to use.

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/16/15 08:39 PM

The NAG-1 (LX/LC cars) and 545RFE (Trucks) are all computer controlled. I don't know of any stand alone controllers for these transmissions. If you want overdrive, go 727 with a gear vendor or an early 518 without a computer controlled governor. There is little to no support in the aftermarket for these transmissions outside of a stock computer/harness retrofit application that includes the engine control for fuel injection.

Posted By: turbofreek

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/02/15 05:24 PM

Pre 09 5.7 blocks can go 4 inches in bore but its best to have it sonic checked to be for sure. Will require a custom piston at this time till others start really doing it. Andy at pwr has one running for a few years now on his own vehicle i was told by him. Cylinders are still thicker than the 6.1 as well.

Again sonic testing the walls is best when taking that much material out.

Im doing a 4" 5.7 05 block with eagle heads an 80mm billet turbo.

Posted By: superhog88

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/13/15 06:45 PM

what is the max lift for stock rocker arms

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/16/15 11:55 AM

Guys say .650 is it,,,,

Posted By: STEFF

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/16/15 06:27 PM

Yes, .650" is pushing it. I'm living it right now.....

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/19/15 02:21 PM

If you can I'd like to see this thread broke down into
different parts so its a bit easier to get the info... as
in
Blocks.. which ones are best for what reason
Cranks... what will interchange and the stroke of each
and if there is any diameter changes
Cams... max lift, duration and so on
you get the idea... I've been searching on here for different
info but its sorta hard to find and I dont want to ask if its
already out there

Posted By: donscuda

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/19/15 05:59 PM

I agree with you.

Larry is close to having my 5.7 ready and put it in my Cuda, and I'm still having some questions and having this broken down would make it easier to find some answers without using the search tool...

With as popular as this engine is becoming with all of the new car sales, and the swaps that are going on. Maybe we should have a 3rd Gen Hemi Section in the main forum, and break that up into the different sections. That way we could have a section for the street guys too.

Posted By: LO23

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/19/15 08:12 PM

check out G3 HEMI SWAP on facebook.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/19/15 11:20 PM

Originally Posted By donscuda

I agree with you.

I would like to see a Gen3 section also

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/20/15 12:00 AM

I have a ton of swap info I could contribute.

Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/20/15 12:35 AM

Yes please on the Gen III section. Organization would be awesome! I would contribute what I have discovered as well.

Posted By: donscuda

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/20/15 04:43 PM

I would add anything I could too. I already found out that I ordered the wrong ignition harness for my FAST fuel injection system. I ordered the 5.7, but because of the way the motor is set up, I needed the 6.1 harness.

And I 'd like to add, the reason I only had one mistake so far is the fact that I have such an experienced person like Larry Griffith doing the work. I was just going to go with another small block until talking with Larry.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/22/15 02:32 PM

Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY

Originally Posted By donscuda

I agree with you.

I would like to see a Gen3 section also

Having started this thread, I heartily agree it is time to gather all the info and add it to some other much more easy to research form or section. I think the original thread should stay for the purpose of info gathering, but a tech article or section editable by MODs only would be a great way to do it.

Posted By: GoodysGotaCuda

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/23/15 12:19 AM

Definitely time for a GenIII section. Information is extremely scattered and plenty of it is being kept as tribal knowledge. This whole thread could -easily- be broken down into sub-threads of "power steering", "fuel system", "ECU/Control Units", "Oiling and Exhaust", "intakes", "heads", etc for in-dept discussion of each area.

If nothing else, I wonder if there is some sort of free Wiki-Page we can setup for members to create their own tech articles and people can add to it, reference other pages, etc. Those are exceptional online databases that are easy to create and search.

Posted By: MattW

Re: Intake gaskets - 06/23/15 02:06 PM

Originally Posted By GoodysGotaCuda

I agree this IS the future for us.

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 06/28/15 04:55 PM

Two questions, any problems putting the 6.1-6.4 crank in a 5.7 block,maybe cam line up? Next, how or what is used to mate the 904-727 trans to the 5.7? 5.7 is an 2007.

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 06/28/15 08:32 PM

Originally Posted By cudaman1969

Two questions, any problems putting the 6.1-6.4 crank in a 5.7 block,maybe cam line up? Next, how or what is used to mate the 904-727 trans to the 5.7? 5.7 is an 2007.

i am pretty sure a 6.4 crank will not fit in an 07, the 07 does not have vvt and a 6.4 crank snout is longer.
i am 100% possitive though a 6.1 is identical to an 07 5.7 except it is a steel crank not cast like a 5.7..

Posted By: MattW

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 06/28/15 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By cudaman1969

Two questions, any problems putting the 6.1-6.4 crank in a 5.7 block,maybe cam line up? Next, how or what is used to mate the 904-727 trans to the 5.7? 5.7 is an 2007.

No problem with 6.1 to a 5.7 block, same crank different material.
6.4 machine the front of the crank to fit in an 03 to 08 5.7 or any 6.1 block. Very simple procedure.
904 to 727 will bolt up. I believe the top hole on both trans is not used.
IIRC you will need a ring gear same as a Chevy. I believe mopar sells them.
Matt

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 06/28/15 11:48 PM

The 5.7 2009+ and 6.4 2011+ are both VVT engines which have the timing set spaced further from block face and use thicker timing covers to accommodate the the VVT setup. All 6.1 cranks will work in ALL engines with 2 caveats,
For use in VVT engines, you need a crank sprocket spacer.
Also 6.1 cranks use a unique to them,4 bolt IIRC, trigger wheel that you need to make sure has the right tooth count for your type of engine management.
To use a VVT crank in a non VVT engine you would have to have it machined to let the crank sprocket seat deeper on the snout.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 06/28/15 11:58 PM

You can bolt up the 904/727/518/a500 SB trans by using a 02-08 flex plate and a jeep converter or knock the ring gear off your existing converter. I have not run it but looks like it will all be spaced out the same.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 06/29/15 01:40 AM

You just get one of these and use a regular ole 727 or 904 converter and trans.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Performanc...137&vxp=mtr

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 06/29/15 02:24 AM

Thanks for info. One thing though, how about the converter hub fitting in the crank?

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 06/29/15 05:53 AM

340Rick on here has already done this, I cant remember him having any issues at all. His car flys too.

Posted By: StricNine

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 06/29/15 03:51 PM

If you get a crankshaft for/from a manual transmission engine the pilot bearing (p/n 53009180AB) will have to come out. The parts manual shows a sleeve (p/n 4736283AA) that I suppose is for the torque convertor snout.

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 06/30/15 10:27 PM

The sleeve has to come out of the crank to fit the large pilot on the 904/727/518 transmissions. Also, you would need to check the converter engagement depth if using the MP conversion flexplate (no ring gear) as it was with mine, there was almost 0 free play so I had to shim the transmission back (used a mid plate and cut off the extra) to allow for converter movement and not kill the thrust bearing or the front pump. The bushing is made out of some pretty hard stuff, took a while to get it out.

Attached picture converter sleeve.jpg

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 06/30/15 11:34 PM

Do the dowel pins line up ok? I like the idea of using a mid plate for spacing.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 06/30/15 11:46 PM

I have an 11 an 03 and 2 04 truck and durango engines and none of them have that ring and the converter from a 727 and 904 fits in there just fine, may just be a car thing for the car trans.

Posted By: Just-a-dart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/01/15 01:25 AM

Originally Posted By 72Swinger

You just get one of these and use a regular ole 727 or 904 converter and trans.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Performanc...137&vxp=mtr

My son bought one of these. I bought a ATI 915685. The ATI is much more robust
http://www.jegs.com/i/ATI/085/915685/10002/-1?parentProductId=

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/01/15 04:11 AM

I think you are right, the trucks didn't get the NAG-1 *except the jeep SRT8 I think* and the pilot on the NAG converter is pretty small. The rest of the trucks I think had the 545RFE. Maybe that is the reason for no sleeve. The flexplate I got from mancini racing looks just like the ATI in the picture above. The midplate I used measured about .090" the dowels still had enough engagement to line up ok

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/01/15 06:29 PM

Originally Posted By ntstlgl1970

Sometimes things hit you in the face like steeping on a rake. I can see now why the 727-904 fit the blocks because it was basically the same trans used in the trucks and the Nags in the cars, so simple a cave man should know. Probably the first time Chrysler has done this.

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/01/15 09:20 PM

Originally Posted By ntstlgl1970

I would suggest a mock up outside the car. I too had to shim my block and trans with one converter but didn't have to with another converter. I didn't bother trying to figure out why this was the case but I have seen a lot of posts where some guys say the needed to shim and other said they didn't

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/01/15 11:57 PM

I had a stock 46rh converter to compare to my aftermarket one, the difference was in the stator drive tube where it met the body of the converter. On mine the drive tube area was flat where it met the body, on the stock converter, the area where the tube met the converter body was about 1/8" "deeper". All other dimensions were the same. I had mocked mine up with just the trans case, front pump and converter on the back of the engine to see if there was any clearance. Glad I did that....

Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/03/15 08:08 PM

Here is a new question:

When putting a Gen III in an older car, with something like MS3 EFI, What gauges can be used and do you wire them to the block, or the EFI and Ignition? Things like oil pressure, voltage, water temp, etc.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/03/15 09:34 PM

I have my gauges independent from the EFISOURCE.

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/03/15 10:28 PM

Originally Posted By hudsonhornet7x

i run my factory 1968 senders in the block
and use factory gauges.
i also monitor everything efi on my cell phone using shadow dash

Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/03/15 10:55 PM

Thanks guys, I am confused by EFI and am trying to learn as much as I can before the engine is in.

One last thing. Would tuning the engine with a magnuson supercharger be harder than N/A?

Posted By: mcat4321

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/03/15 11:06 PM

Originally Posted By hudsonhornet7x

Thanks guys, I am confused by EFI and am trying to learn as much as I can before the engine is in.

One last thing. Would tuning the engine with a magnuson supercharger be harder than N/A?

not harder, just different

Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/15/15 03:51 PM

There's a member on the truck forum asking about Gen III builds:

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post1869917

Thought I'd link it so some of the more knowledgeable guys could comment in case they didn't see it

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/18/15 12:01 AM

Couldn't find the other post on the Nag1 trans so I'll put it here. The output yoke is for a fixed driveshaft (no up and down). Found a simple solution, a 2006 Dodge Sprinter has a different yoke(four finger instead of three) that allows a u-joint type driveshaft to be attached. Replace the yoke (bolts on)and use a junk yard drive shaft. There is electronics now for this trans(five speed) and they are plentiful in salvage yards for about 500 apiece and they fit with no cutting. I think this is the same trans MB puts in the 500 hp AMGs.

Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/18/15 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By cudaman1969

That bit of info is very interesting. Where do you find the electronic portion for the swap?

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/18/15 12:42 AM

Go back into early post of the guy who put a Gen111 in a 70 RR (he had a big write up on body stiffing also), he found some one to make up the control. I have it bookmarked so I'll go find it.

Guys name is Darius on for b body's only. Body stiffing

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/18/15 06:18 PM

I was told not to do it. I insisted.

4 of 8 piston oilers broke off. 4.08 stroke

Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/18/15 06:23 PM

Originally Posted By sixpackgut

I was told not to do it. I insisted.

4 of 8 piston oilers broke off. 4.08 stroke

Too much stroke in relation to the oilers?

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/18/15 06:58 PM

Idk, plenty of clearance. I really dont know

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/19/15 10:27 PM

Darius has been struggling to get his car driving right, he is in the same car club as me. To my knowledge he is not running the NAG1 as a stand alone....

The NAG1 is the same as the mercedes transmission that they use in a bunch of different chassis with a different id - I think it's called a 722.6 or something like that.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/27/15 12:08 PM

Hi all - a while back I promised that Id do a genuine comparison between the Modman 6.1
intake and the Edekbrock 5.7 dual quad dual plane.

I experienced significant tuning issues with the Modman running both single and dual carbs - (333 RWHP) and it only really worked half way decent when I installed a full height divider (346 RWHP)

Below is the dyno chart ( same dyno..similar atmospherics) showing three (3) runs

The BLUE line was the Modman with divider - this netted a 11.9@ 114mph

The MIDDLE RED is the EDDY - same carbs - 360 rwhp

The Upper RED is the Eddy with twin 1" 4 hole spacers. - 368RWHP

A bit more tuning yielded 376 RWHP

The Eddy had a home port match to the 6.1 heads.

The headers were shorty hot rod headers - complete junk.

I think this proves conclusively that the Modman is a JUNK NA intake.

My guess is that the carbs are losing about 15 rwhp to the EFI....

Drivtrain losses ~ 90hp verified by mph/ weight at the track

Attached picture E7EA0870-125C-4557-904A-9DE3739417EB.jpeg

Attached picture E7EA0870-125C-4557-904A-9DE3739417EB.jpeg

Posted By: Shawndp

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 07/28/15 02:21 PM

A 545rfe is your best choice. I picked mine up for $400 with 29 k miles. It is controlled by the engine computer so you only have one module the nag uses a variety of sensors all over the car. Hotwireauto.com told me to use the 545 cause it was simpler and cheaper than doing a nag trans a gear vendor od will run about $3000

Posted By: wegner426

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 08/10/15 09:43 PM

Originally Posted By cudaman1969

Are yo sure they fit with no cutting? The link to the only well documented install I have seen is below. As you go through the pages you will see they end up cutting the tunnel and the crossmember.

http://www.forebodiesonly.com/forum/showthread.php?7651-Ma-s-cuda-A-long-time-coming/page4

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 08/10/15 10:51 PM

Originally Posted By wegner426

Originally Posted By cudaman1969

Look up Darius, that's his post name, he can tell you everything you need to know. Did all this to a 70 RR. He has a great post on b-body's only.

Posted By: wegner426

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 08/10/15 11:20 PM

Originally Posted By cudaman1969

Originally Posted By wegner426

Originally Posted By cudaman1969

Look up Darius, that's his post name, he can tell you everything you need to know. Did all this to a 70 RR. He has a great post on b-body's only.

Thanks for sharing this build, but it looks like the cutting of crossmember and tunnel starts on page 3.

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?1121-B-Body-stiffening/page3

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 08/11/15 03:00 AM

Originally Posted By wegner426

Originally Posted By cudaman1969

Originally Posted By wegner426

Originally Posted By cudaman1969

Look up Darius, that's his post name, he can tell you everything you need to know. Did all this to a 70 RR. He has a great post on b-body's only.

Thanks for sharing this build, but it looks like the cutting of crossmember and tunnel starts on page 3.

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?1121-B-Body-stiffening/page3

With the smaller yoke I showed I think you might get away without cutting anything other than the 4 bolt mount crossmember to fab the mount to the trans.

Posted By: wegner426

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 08/12/15 09:39 PM

I have a Nag 1 on the garage floor and the trans is out of my car, which is a 4 speed car. I may try to slide it up there this weekend if I get time to see if it fits but I am fearful it won't without cutting the tunnel, assuming you want a factory driveline angle.

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 08/13/15 03:25 AM

From looking at my trans it might get close where the trans rolls down to output flange. I would check mine but I'm still welding up front frames, sub frame connectors, floors and firewall, all in jigs.

Posted By: Street Monkies

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/02/15 08:11 AM

Roughly what is the cost to build one of these engines for drag race use? From low to high cost.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/02/15 11:37 PM

I traded a 19 yr old BB for my 6.1 core and probably put another 7K in it with EFI and all.
Headers: 800
Pan and pickup: 500
4.05 stroke rotator: 2300
cam used: 200
timing set: 90
lifters used: 100
Manley pushrods: 120
Manley springs: 350
Head work: 1400
Oil pump: 150
ATI balancer blem: 200
EFI setup: 1700
gaskets: 200

Posted By: Street Monkies

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/03/15 01:42 AM

Thanks! I'm thinking about doing a build out there in the future for something different. Maybe by the time I'm ready the 6.4 will be an easy buy. That's unless some other deal comes up. Never know.

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/05/15 07:35 AM

Originally Posted By ntstlgl1970

Quick followup on the NAG1- I talked to Darius at Sac raceway last weekend and he finally got his trans sorted out, its not a stand alone controller though. Biggest problem is just chrysler not wanting to support these types of swaps by sharing data like GM and Ford do.

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/27/15 06:37 AM

Cool video explaining the differences between the Apache and Hellcat heads..

https://www.facebook.com/moparmusclemag/videos/10153679527602792/?fref=nf

Chris..

Posted By: Just-a-dart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/27/15 06:48 AM

I had not seen that, thanks Chris

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/28/15 06:24 AM

Originally Posted By Street Monkies

Roughly what is the cost to build one of these engines for drag race use? From low to high cost.

Depends on your HP target.

Buggest inhibitor is the crappy slugs, piston/valve clearance and rods - so with an unopened motor I dont think youd see much more than appx 520 fwhp NA with a 6.1' ported heads, cam, headers, tune and modded intake.

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/28/15 09:53 AM

Originally Posted By Just-a-dart

I had not seen that, thanks Chris

Welcome Don..

I just noticed that I didn't title it..

DONE..

Chris..

Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 10/17/15 03:39 PM

Question:

Does anyone know the chamber size for eagle heads as well as 6.1 heads?

Would one head offer an advantage over the other?

Thanks for any input.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 10/17/15 08:05 PM

Eagle 65cc
6.1 73cc
Whichever ones you have use, or get Apaches.

Posted By: Wailin D

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 10/19/15 06:13 AM

Looking for the part numbers for the 6.4 hemi factory replacement crate engine, 470 hp non-MDS, and the 6.1 hemi factory replacement crate engine. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

Posted By: Triple Threat

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 10/27/15 12:57 AM

If using a 6.4 apache head on an early 5.7 block what head gasket is needed? 5.7 bore is likely too small, will the 6.4 work? 6.1?

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 10/28/15 10:57 AM

I was told to use the gasket that matches the block. As far as bore goes, there must be an after market gasket that will work. Guys have bored the 5.7 to 4.00. According to a picture of Apache heads sitting on a 5.7 un bored block, the chambers on the Apache heads are small enough to work with a 4.00 bore gasket.

Posted By: Triple Threat

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 10/28/15 06:33 PM

Cometic 5.7L gaskets are 4.100 bore, so should be good there.

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 10/29/15 10:08 PM

What head is on a 06 6.1 SRT8 engine?

Posted By: Triple Threat

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 10/29/15 10:15 PM

All 6.1's use the same head, its just known as the 6.1, no code name.

Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 10/29/15 10:18 PM

They're just called 6.1 heads, no fancy name for them, still a good head, flow #'s comparable to an Eagle head

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 10/29/15 10:28 PM

Originally Posted By WO23Coronet

They're just called 6.1 heads, no fancy name for them, still a good head, flow #'s comparable to an Eagle head

Do they have problems with seats popping out?

Posted By: WO23Coronet

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 10/29/15 11:43 PM

I don't think so, it's the early 5.7 heads that we're known to do that, and generally (but not always) only if they were heated/ran hot

Posted By: cudaman1969

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 10/30/15 04:31 AM

Originally Posted By WO23Coronet

I don't think so, it's the early 5.7 heads that we're known to do that, and generally (but not always) only if they were heated/ran hot

Think it was over reved and broke top of lifter. Looked in pushrod hole with bore scope, saw seat beat up

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 03/18/16 10:25 PM

5.7 stroker about to hit the track soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6LmseKXLzI

Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 03/19/16 03:39 AM

Any specs on that? Is sounds great!

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 03/19/16 04:18 AM

It is a BFNY build, IIRC Eagle heads, 12.1 and a decent cam.

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 03/27/16 07:09 PM

If you plan to use the late model P/S pump idler (on cars with electric power steering) on an earlier engine (non-VVT), be warned - the bracket is cast of the lowest quality aluminum which doesn't want to weld for @%!T. Think welding the most crappy 50's aluminum casting that's been in oil forever, and it's about that bad. And this was new out of the box, maybe it's made of pot metal....

Posted By: RapidusMaximus

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/22/17 06:32 PM

So...I've read most of these 10 pages and I feel I'm suffering from information overload, LOL. I am obviously a Gen III newbe...my question, simply stated would be if I was going to a salvage yard looking for base parts to build a street strip Gen III what would be the desired parts to put on my shopping list, IE, desired years, configuration, short blocks, intakes, heads, etc.? Hope this isn't oversimplifying my question, thanks in advance.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/22/17 07:31 PM

hard to beat an eagle 5.7 from a truck, its got the best intake, almost the best heads, decent compression, the pistons are stronger than the earlier one, rods are slightly better, if you don't like VVT (I like it) then it is easy to lock out, if you like MDS (I like it) get one from a 1500 if you dont get one from a 2500 3500 or just leave the solenoids in and don't worry about it. The 6.4 apache cam is a real nice, easy upgrade. Short of coughing up the big bucks for a 6.4 apache or 6.4 BGE and upgradeing the cam with the apache, this is about the easiest cheapest route to big power.

Posted By: RapidusMaximus

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/22/17 07:36 PM

Good info, thanks, any particular year to stay away from or are any years more desirable than others?

Posted By: ric3xrt

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/27/17 04:48 PM

some of the 09-14a have a high mileage lifter issue.
Some timing chain issue, not sure which year.

Posted By: A39Coronet

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 12/24/17 12:55 AM

I just picked up Larry Sheppard's "New Hemi Engines" book from Barnes and Noble. For $20, it's a pretty good read on some of the basics of the G3s, all in one place. My only gripes are he is pretty vague on some topics, touches only lightly on the BGE, and despite it being labeled "how to build max performance", there is very little building tips inside.

Posted By: ta3834bbl

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 03/16/18 08:37 PM

1st, I know this is an old thread but I just re-read all 10 pages and didn't see my questions asked or answered.
03 ram 5.7 with 4 cooked rod bearings, suspect a failed oil change to be at fault. I have an extremely low mileage 06 jeep long block to swap in the truck after an .030 overbore ( due to water sitting in the bores and pitting the cyl walls). I'm wanting to know if the 06 MDS cam will work fine in my 03 non MDS build. I already plugged the MDS with billit plugs and the truck was NON-MDS to begin with. I guess my question is, is the cam the same ? The 03 cam looks like it got hot with the rest of the 03 engine. I'm using all the accessories from the truck, just basically replacing the engine with the rebuilt 06 long block minus the MDS.

2nd. Should I swap to the 6.1 valve springs and pushrods while the engine is apart. Short block is assembled, putting the rest together today if possible.

PS. The intended use of this will be a daily driven 2500 4x4 with 4.10 gears, and pulling a boat or camper or race car around.

Thanks in advance.

Posted By: ric3xrt

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 03/16/18 08:49 PM

#1 The cam is not the same, but it's fine to use.
#2 while it's apart might as well upgrade to the 6.1 stuff.

Posted By: ta3834bbl

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 03/16/18 08:53 PM

Originally Posted By ric3xrt

#1 The cam is not the same, but it's fine to use.
#2 while it's apart might as well upgrade to the 6.1 stuff.

Thanks for the response. What are your thoughts about using an 06 6.1 cam while I'm at it ? My dealership can get me the cam and springs overnight for around 550 bucks, haven't checked on the pushrods yet.

And if I do the cam, will it need a tune ? Just looking for torque, pulling, mileage.

Posted By: hudsonhornet7x

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 03/17/18 03:31 AM

Originally Posted By ta3834bbl

Originally Posted By ric3xrt

#1 The cam is not the same, but it's fine to use.
#2 while it's apart might as well upgrade to the 6.1 stuff.

Other guys here will know better than me, but $ 550 sounds very high for the 6.1 cam and springs.

Posted By: AeroMonte

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 05/12/18 01:41 AM

Originally Posted By hudsonhornet7x

Originally Posted By ta3834bbl

Originally Posted By ric3xrt

#1 The cam is not the same, but it's fine to use.
#2 while it's apart might as well upgrade to the 6.1 stuff.

Other guys here will know better than me, but $ 550 sounds very high for the 6.1 cam and springs.

I was quoted $68 for a 6.4 cam and $300 for a 5.7 cam. Didn't price the springs. A full set of lifters for my 2012 Ram was a little over $500.

Posted By: Greenwood

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 04/01/19 03:06 AM

I'm sorely tempted to do one before I retire, and likely retire the car. I'd freshen the 360 and sell it to free up some cash. My "vision" is a standard bore 5.7 with H-beam rods and a forged piston shooting for 10.5-11.0:1 compression. Basically stock heads, and a bigger cam that will still play nice with the stock rockers. I'd go the carb route, with something like an 850-950 Holley. I would obviously like to stick with my 904, and the 5.13's I'm currently running.
I currently run a motor plate and electric water pump. I see headers and ignition as big hurdles in a 69 Dart with a stock cross member. What else? As it stands, I don't see this being a tremendous deal, or am I dreaming in technicolor?

Posted By: Ray408G3Hemi

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 07/28/19 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Greenwood

It's not that big of a deal, Headers Call TTI they make em, Ignition , MSD Hemi-6 is the box you want.
aeicnc.com is a good place for motor plate,

Stock bore and stroke 5.7 10-12 to 1 compression , Comp cams 273 Arrow/prefix single plane intake will get you about 500Hp with some work to the 03-08 heads , If you go with the 09+ 5.7 eagle heads 500Hp is easier.
Manley has a good stock bore piston so does DSS, 6.1 cranks are getting harder to find just keep that in mind. Eagle and Scat both have decent H- beam rods for under 500

There is user here that sells the Prefix line of products, search around the G3 section and you'll find hemi

Posted By: Kiddart

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid,,,,,,,,, - 07/28/19 09:54 PM

if this is a new motor build? Pack the oil pump with assembly grease or petroleum jelly, you will thank me later!!

Posted By: swapdaddyxx1

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/11/19 04:46 PM

I have a problem that I'm sure others have experienced. At the last oil change by the local quickie oil change, the mechanic? broke the handle of the dip stick in my 300C. I think this is a design flaw since the metal in the dipstick is not extended all the way up into the handle. The mechanic was not able to get the stick out of the tube He tried drilling a small hole in the plastic left on top of the stick, inserting a small screw to pull it out with pliers but this did not work. The plastic left in the tube seems to be stuck to the tube. I will soon be 83 yrs old with some rather severe physical limitations and not able to do much anymore. The car which is my wife's car will soon be due for another oil change and I don't think I want this same guy messing with it. I am sure there is a bracket welded onto the tube and bolted to the engine block but there is no room to get my hand down between the engine and the inner fender liner. Can it be accessed from under the car if it is on a lift? Anyone else experienced this and any ideas without having to go to dealer who is not convienentley (sp) located?

Posted By: biff426

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 09/11/19 06:54 PM

If the screw is still in the handle use a heat gun to heat up the dip stick tube under the handle. This will release the orings on the handle and it should slide out.

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 03/30/20 07:53 AM

Milodon pan, TTI Mounts, TTI headers, factory suspension and steering box - car is a 67 Belvedere II.

Very smooth install however full lock causes the drag link to interfere and scrape the back of the pan well.

This could result in the pan cracking after time.

Simple solution is to split a couple of feet of 3/4 ID hose and wrap the drag link with it.

More professional fix is to weld a couple of 3/16 turn stops on the lower control arms.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 03/30/20 04:40 PM

Maybe you could slot the motor mount holes a smidge

Posted By: Moparmal

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 05/09/20 04:02 AM

Good thought!

Posted By: Adrielp

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 08/19/20 03:27 PM

All, I don't know if this information has been provided quite yet but I wanted to let everyone know. I just got a camshaft quoted from Comp Cams and LSM. For a solid roller VVT from LSM, it would be $1200. Comp cams doesn't have any VVT cores but for a solid roller non VVT cam the cost was about $1100. Both of these cams were going to be high rpm big duration camshafts for my engine build. Just an fyi for anyone interested.

Posted By: Jeremiah

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 11/25/20 01:18 PM

Call Oregon Cam Grinders

Posted By: moparjim79

Re: Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know.. - 11/26/20 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by Adrielp

Recheck your prices. Look at places like high horse performance or modern muscle extreme, everyone is pushing the non vvt cam and tuning program. Oregon cams website is very weak at best, but the reviews for the place look really promising.

Gen III Hemi, please post things to avoid and know..