Moparts

Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma

Posted By: jcc

Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma - 05/06/21 02:23 AM

I am a big fan of a square tire set-up for hobbyist track day with not in competition cars. Luckily the wheels that work best for my set-up are 20x12, and can be had in the popular 3 5xBC's.

The problem is, it looks like I'm stuck with 5x5 in the front, and 5x4.75 in the rear. I'm a mopar guy and have plenty of 5x4.5 stuff, but I can't seem to under any situation make that work on this car.
Redrilling the hubs is not possible, there is not enough meat on the hubs in this application, period, trust me.

So is the car really "square" if the wheels are the same size but the BC are different? Is there a big downside to that. None on my existing wheels will fit unfortunately.

Additionally, if the BC's are different, I might as well optimize the back spacing also rather than compromise BS. The 20x12 wheels ain't cheap, so having spares on hand will not be my first goal, but one off track bent wheel excursion will make me change my mind I suspect rather promptly.

Any thoughts?

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma - 05/06/21 04:05 AM

Yeah....wheels are round, not square.

Attached picture 1 excited.jpg
Posted By: jcc

Re: Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma - 05/06/21 12:50 PM

They are when you have "square" tires.
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma - 05/07/21 01:23 PM

Typically the guys I've worked with over the years considered equal tire sizes as a square set-up without consideration of the bolt circles or wheel offsets. It is the rarity that one runs into mixed bolt circles on a vehicle. I have seen it it, but it isn't common. However, if you do have alternate bolt circles in your hubs, all you really loose is the ability to easily rotate tires to any position. In a car turning right and left, I don't see that as an issue on the same level as a car that only turns one direction that may be running alternate diameters right to left.

Are replacement hubs in a square bolt pattern more or less expensive than the wheels under consideration and which methods serves the long term goals best?
Posted By: geo.

Re: Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma - 05/08/21 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by TC@HP2
Typically the guys I've worked with over the years considered equal tire sizes as a square set-up without consideration of the bolt circles or wheel offsets. It is the rarity that one runs into mixed bolt circles on a vehicle. I have seen it it, but it isn't common. However, if you do have alternate bolt circles in your hubs, all you really loose is the ability to easily rotate tires to any position. In a car turning right and left, I don't see that as an issue on the same level as a car that only turns one direction that may be running alternate diameters right to left.

Are replacement hubs in a square bolt pattern more or less expensive than the wheels under consideration and which methods serves the long term goals best?


I'd price this, and having wheels wheels re-drilled if there's enough meat between the existing pattern. I know I've read about holes being welded up and then re-drilled, so maybe the voids between your existing holes could be filled if there's not enough there to drill. In the long run probably be cheaper to pay to have tires remounted and balanced each time. And don't forget to price replacement axles, but then you'd still need two new wheels!
Years ago I thought one of the circle track wheel companies sold a 15" dual bolt pattern wheel, wonder if those are still available.But for circle track use I doubt you'd find them in 20" sizes.
Posted By: ruderunner

Re: Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma - 05/08/21 11:02 AM

Not sure on current availability but wheels were available drilled for multiple patterns. And I don't mean unilug.

If the wheels are custom ordered, can they be double drilled?
Posted By: Moparite

Re: Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma - 05/08/21 03:55 PM

Posted By: jcc

Re: Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma - 05/08/21 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by TC@HP2
Typically the guys I've worked with over the years considered equal tire sizes as a square set-up without consideration of the bolt circles or wheel offsets. It is the rarity that one runs into mixed bolt circles on a vehicle. I have seen it it, but it isn't common. However, if you do have alternate bolt circles in your hubs, all you really loose is the ability to easily rotate tires to any position. In a car turning right and left, I don't see that as an issue on the same level as a car that only turns one direction that may be running alternate diameters right to left.

Are replacement hubs in a square bolt pattern more or less expensive than the wheels under consideration and which methods serves the long term goals best?


It 's becoming clear the complexity of having two different BC's on the car is greater then in my case, just building a new set of custom spindles with better bearings to then have my matching BC's. I need a stronger hub/bearing package then any stock offering available.

That will also allow me to go with Mopar friendly 4.5" BC, and since I believe GM 4.75" BC is a bit stronger, I'm likely when tapping for the 4.5" BC, I'll convert to either 9/16" or 14mm studs.

Redrilling/dual pattern wheels are not available for my size that I have found.
Posted By: geo.

Re: Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma - 05/08/21 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by jcc
Originally Posted by TC@HP2
Typically the guys I've worked with over the years considered equal tire sizes as a square set-up without consideration of the bolt circles or wheel offsets. It is the rarity that one runs into mixed bolt circles on a vehicle. I have seen it it, but it isn't common. However, if you do have alternate bolt circles in your hubs, all you really loose is the ability to easily rotate tires to any position. In a car turning right and left, I don't see that as an issue on the same level as a car that only turns one direction that may be running alternate diameters right to left.

Are replacement hubs in a square bolt pattern more or less expensive than the wheels under consideration and which methods serves the long term goals best?


It 's becoming clear the complexity of having two different BC's on the car is greater then in my case, just building a new set of custom spindles with better bearings to then have my matching BC's. I need a stronger hub/bearing package then any stock offering available.

That will also allow me to go with Mopar friendly 4.5" BC, and since I believe GM 4.75" BC is a bit stronger, I'm likely when tapping for the 4.5" BC, I'll convert to either 9/16" or 14mm studs.

Redrilling/dual pattern wheels are not available for my size that I have found.


Well I admit you've got my attention, if you don't mind please answer some questions.

What car?

What rear axle?

What knuckles/front hubs?

If not using the popular circle track 5" pattern, I'd agree the 4.75" might be your best bet.

As an aside, when my bro. in-lsw built his mazda GTU car in 1980 he used the porsche bolt pattern. He said wheels, hubs, brake parts were more available and less$, and available used!

I lived with 4.5 on the front, and 5 on the rear of my road race Challenger for too long before I finally had the rear axles/rotors re-drilled.

There wasn't enough meat to re-drill the fomoco front hubs to 5"
Posted By: jcc

Re: Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma - 05/09/21 01:15 PM

1972 Barracuda
CTS V modified/upgraded IRS converted to coilovers with a Quickchange, using upgraded SKF X tracker bearing 33 spline 4.75"BC hubs, now(?) being redrilled to 4.5" BC.
I'm currently heading down the path of fabbing some custom 7075 front uprights for an identical front bearing package, also redrilled. These X trackers do have limited track lifetimes, but seem to be the best available presently.
The 20x12 square wheel package for a 600+HP road race 3,000lb car at my home track of Sebring, which is really a demolition derby course built in 1941, seems to want a 5x5 front hub set-up, that is difficult to achieve squarely with all the above, and hence the point of this thread.
Posted By: geo.

Re: Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma - 05/13/21 02:42 AM

sounds like quite a car!
Do you think wheel offset is a factor in bearing life?
Posted By: jcc

Re: Track Day Car Square wheel dilemma - 05/14/21 03:50 AM

Yes
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