Borgeson steering box issues

Hey team,, I anteed up the nearly $900 bucks for the borgeson box for my 70 Coronet. (about a year ago)...

I have a couple of issues that I can't seem to fix.
I was wondering if any one else has experienced this..
or, might be able to help....

First, When ever I turn the wheel either left or right no matter how far,
I hear a hiss inside the cabin from the drivers seat. It sounds like the type of "sound"
you would expect if the car was turned all the way left or all the way right.
I get it no matter what...For $900 I think it sucks!

if you get out of the car while its idling and open the hood
and lean inside close to the box you can hear the same sound
So it's definitely coming from the box.

A couple of notes:
a) I replaced the floor pan seal when I installed the new box.
with a new gasket from DMT...
b) I have made absolutely sure that the steering box was
centered before installing the column and coupling.
c) The car has been aligned and goes straight down the road
steering wheel is straight, car tracks very nice
d) The steering wheel seems to return to center just fine..
e) I use power steering fluid not auto trans fluid.
f) the power steering pump is at the full mark on the cap (hot)
with no bubbles. The box/pump was bled according to the instructions..
no foaming etc...

FWIW One major difference from the borgeson box vs the stock box is the
angle of the steering shaft going into the coupling.
This is a pronounced angle vs stock...but...."works"...

Do any of you shim the box to straighten this out?
If so exactly what do you use (where can I get these "shims")

Is this the cause (angle difference) of the noise being transmitted into the cabin?

Second..
Despite the steering box being centered and the car aligning straight
and tracking straight etc... I have one "anomaly" that I can't figure out.

The steering wheel turns 1 and 1/2 turns to the right (from center) but 2 full turns to the left.
At first glance it would seem that the car is a quarter turn (from steering wheel) to far to the right.

But when I drive the steering wheel returns to center fine. The steering wheel does not over correct left etc...
Let me reiterate the the box was centered before installing the coupling/column.

I am using a new MOOG pitman arm (courtesy of Rich E'berg)
that has 4 "indexes" on it (90 degrees apart) which fits perfectly on the shaft of the box. Because of
the 4 index arrangement it's not possible to be off by a tooth or two. From underneath the car you are
either square or off noticeably either left or right....

Does anyone else notice this? Is this normal? What am I missing..

If the box is centered straight and the pitman arm is installed correctly how would I fix this?

Any help would be appreciated...thanks for the ad

On your second issue if you look at your tie rod adjusting sleeves on both sides. The adjusting sleeve should be approximately centered on the two tie rod ends, on both sides of the vehicle within a few threads of eachother.

If that is not the case then the box was not centered in its range of travel before the steering wheel/column/coupler was brought down and joined up to it.
I am not familiar with the borgeson setup but I would assume they do also have a master spline on the input shaft of the box so the coupler can theoretically only go on one way ?

What I have found in the past on factory boxes where someone being careless or rushed during the installation Of the pot coupler onto the new box bolted into the frame. The box was not centered and they just used a hammer to reinstall the coupler, straighten the wheel then crank the adjusting sleeves to make it all square and true. Worked great except at the ends of the range of travel one side might have an extra 1/2 to 3/4 of turn vs the other side.

I'll bet that the crooked mounting angle surely factors into the matter. I'd also bet that the turning radius isn't the same in each direction.
My Charger has a Firm Feel Stage 3 and the Fast Ratio arms. The only limitations to full turning is the tires rubbing against the frame rails.
Do your tires come close to the frame an equal distance on both sides?
Peter Bergman at Bergman Auto Craft in NY sells Borgeson kits. If anyone sells a shim for these, he would know about it. He is a Moparts sponsor too. Good luck.

Thanks for the replies...
Yes the tie rod sleeves are approximately centered on the tie rod ends and each side looks very close thread wise...
Meaning one side isn't wider or tighter than the other...

There is no master index or master spline on the BergmanAutoCraft coupler like there is on the stock coupler.
If I remember right, the stock coupler doesn't even fit
on the box I've got...(From Bergman)

My initial thought was to remove the steering column and turn it
to the right 1/4 turn (w/ coupler) and then install it on the
"centered" box. Once installed this would force me to turn
the wheel to the left 1 quarter turn and then re-align the car
(Reset the toe) to straighten out the wheel..
But, since the box is centered. My fear is, if I turn to the left 1/4 turn I'm screwing with my centered box.

I haven't checked to see if the tires are rubbing on the
frame rails...FWIW I'm running 15" Magnum 500 rims from wheel vintiques with 245/65/R15 Cooper Tires

Every thing in the STOCK steering system is designed to go together one way.

Steering wheel to shaft has a master spline.

Coupler between shaft and box has a master spline.

Box to pitman arm has a master spline.

Of those you changed the pitman arm, the box and the coupler from stock to non-stock.

One of those things is wrong.

You already know the box is at an angle. I would get me some of the GM alignment shims that are U shaped to straighten the angle and test for lock to lock in both directions and see if that "fixes" the problem.

Following, I'm nearing spending the money on a Borgeson box.

Thanks for the reply...Has anyone on here shimmed their Borgeson box? if so, what did you use and what issues did you run into
if any in doing this?

questions, have you reinforced your kframe? Do you have a sector support kit? Have you locktite your bolts from the box? The first box I got, if you turned the steering wheel one way you can see the box move within the slop from inside the bolt holes. The sector support kit and locktite solved this issue but I already have a reinforced kframe.

I put in an 1/8" thick aluminum shim with slotted holes in mine. Made it so I could slide it in from the side and not remove box or the bolts. Other than the less than precise mounting angle, I love the box.

Update: The tires do not rub the frame rails when turning side to side.
There is over 1 inch of clearance on both sides when turned all the way.

So the box reaches its end to end movement without interference from the frame,/suspension etc....

OLD318 -- if the tires aren't hitting the inside rear frame rails upon full lock, then it sounds to me as thought the Borgenson box actually increases the turning radius... not desirable.. as I prefer to have a tighter (smaller) radius.

On the factory T/A Fast Raitio boxes, there are internal "stops" which limit the turning radius due to the known physical fact that the tires would hit the rear frame rails.

All the cars I have dealt with, The "external" turning radius stops are cast in "nubs" in the lower ball joint assembly. At full steering lock, these nubs will touch the lower control arm. My bonehead engineering tells me that having these to limit the travel is preferable to internal stops.
I have taken a grinder to those ball joint stops to get a little more wheel travel.

Back to your topic;
If the wheels do stop at about the same distance from the frame, then technically the range of steering is equal for the left and the right. Shimming the steering box may result in a 1/4 turn reduction from one side, adding that same 1/4 turn to the other, ending up with an equal amount of turns lock to lock.

I love threads like this where all the correct answers are one phone call away, but nobody picks up the phone any more. Its easier to come on a forum and speculate with none of the correct answers. I don't know if you bought the box from me or not, but I do know Im probably the only one who can help.

Call me at the shop any time and Im happy to discuss. 631.425.1555 x323.

I have extensively been there on shimming requirements of Borgeson on our E Body. The angle at my steering shaft into the coupler was my clue that led to the solution of the myriad of issues that I had in my frustrating ride into this rabbit hole.

A search of my earlier postings will bring up the threads,,,,likely some 2 years ago. Photos also posted.

As I recall, I used 1/4th or was it 3/8ths steel stock on the 2 bolt side of the box, between it and the frame. Drill the holes, then cut slots so as to allow you to slide the shim in without the need to remove the bolts. Steel stock you can buy at any Home Depot.

72 Swinger was dealing with shim issue about the same time. Hotchkis too was dealing with his own issues about then.

Disconnect your pitman arm from drag link, spin steering wheel all the way to either left or right, then go all the way back the other way until it stops, counting exactly the number of turns to complete.

Take this number of turns, divide by 2 and spin your wheel exactly this number of turns from your answer. This places your steering box on exact top center,,,,where it must be when traveling straight ahead down the road.

Where is your steering wheel now clocked,,,,likely not where it should be for driving straight ahead.

Can you directly insert drag link bolt dead center into your pitman arm now,,,I doubt it.

If you fail both of these tests, get back to us. You have problems that a shim might help.

Your steering wheel if all is kopecetic should have the same number of turns going left or right before hitting steering box internal stop if straight ahead is too center,,,where it should be.

Of course,,,if you do all of the above correctly you may be unable to set proper toe because of limitations of your tie rod end adjustment capabilities.

If that is the case, here too get back to us,,,you may need a shim.


Another test if you are using the Bergman supplied adapter/coupler. If all is perfectly geometrically installed, the lock screw that affixes the coupler to steering box shaft will be pointed directly at the chassis in 9 O'clock position when wheels are dead ahead. If not you have issue(s).

Guys, in my attempts to help answer questions, see my responses below.

Hey team,, I anteed up the nearly $900 bucks for the borgeson box for my 70 Coronet. (about a year ago)...

I have a couple of issues that I can't seem to fix.
I was wondering if any one else has experienced this..
or, might be able to help....

First, When ever I turn the wheel either left or right no matter how far,
I hear a hiss inside the cabin from the drivers seat. It sounds like the type of "sound"
you would expect if the car was turned all the way left or all the way right.
I get it no matter what...For $900 I think it sucks!

if you get out of the car while its idling and open the hood
and lean inside close to the box you can hear the same sound
So it's definitely coming from the box.

A couple of notes:
a) I replaced the floor pan seal when I installed the new box.
with a new gasket from DMT...
b) I have made absolutely sure that the steering box was
centered before installing the column and coupling.
c) The car has been aligned and goes straight down the road
steering wheel is straight, car tracks very nice
d) The steering wheel seems to return to center just fine..
e) I use power steering fluid not auto trans fluid.
f) the power steering pump is at the full mark on the cap (hot)
with no bubbles. The box/pump was bled according to the instructions..
no foaming etc...

FWIW One major difference from the borgeson box vs the stock box is the
angle of the steering shaft going into the coupling.
This is a pronounced angle vs stock...but...."works"...

The new box is narrower than the original box. If the box is shimmed straight it still would not align with the column. The shafts would be parallel but offset. The angle was done on purpose. The original coupler can take up the angle as the original boxes weren't a 100% straight in all applications.

Do any of you shim the box to straighten this out?
If so exactly what do you use (where can I get these "shims")

Is this the cause (angle difference) of the noise being transmitted into the cabin?

JERRY, the hiss as we spoke does come from the box. I have heard this before only a couple times, but not as pronounced as yours. Since the OE application for this box did not use a Saginaw pump, it is possible that even with the Borgeson suggested pump there is a mismatch in the valving that creates the noise. Mopar even had this problem on new trucks and it was mitigated by an updated pressure hose. It is even possible the gates pressure hose I use could have a slightly smaller ID than other brands. As you mentioned this is a noise only that doesn't affect function. I'm suspect on some boxes there is a back up of fluid in the control valve of the box due to manufacturing tolerances causing noise only on a select few. I've offered to replace the box or refund $$ of the complete setup.

Second..
Despite the steering box being centered and the car aligning straight
and tracking straight etc... I have one "anomaly" that I can't figure out.

The steering wheel turns 1 and 1/2 turns to the right (from center) but 2 full turns to the left.
At first glance it would seem that the car is a quarter turn (from steering wheel) to far to the right.

But when I drive the steering wheel returns to center fine. The steering wheel does not over correct left etc...
Let me reiterate the the box was centered before installing the coupling/column.

I am using a new MOOG pitman arm (courtesy of Rich E'berg)
that has 4 "indexes" on it (90 degrees apart) which fits perfectly on the shaft of the box. Because of
the 4 index arrangement it's not possible to be off by a tooth or two. From underneath the car you are
either square or off noticeably either left or right....

Does anyone else notice this? Is this normal? What am I missing..

[i]This is normal and due to the way the sector shaft is manufactured. It seems it can turn slightly more to one side. The turning radius is fine, but not an issue. [/i]

If the box is centered straight and the pitman arm is installed correctly how would I fix this?

Any help would be appreciated...thanks for the ad

Hope this helps!

Not one phone call, email or text to me in this regard except from the OP.[i][/i][i][/i]

My postings in this thread apply to the Borgeson modifified Delphi steering box. This is what I installed in our Challenger some 2 ago. Uncertain which box OP is dealing with.

It is my understanding that Borgeson subsequently has moved to some generation Mustang derived box for Mopar,,,,and possibly for other models of cars.

I have no experience with this box. Understand that it a bit smaller.

About a year ago I installed in our 55 T Bird a Borgeson box that was designed for the larger mid-50's Ford sedans. They have not manufactured a system for T Bird. Turned out to be a real pita, but now is working very well,,,particularly being able to eliminate the leak prone slave ram cylinder system with multiple hoses that both Ford and GM used for many years. A vast improvement in drive ability.

Also have a Borgeson for our 71 Vette. Not yet installed.. Should go in with little drama as this is a very common swap and reports are very positive on it.