Non-Matching Sway Bars, Hotchkis and Addco

Recently, I've been able to acquire a Hotchkis E-body front sway bar 2254F. 1 1/4 in. Tubular

http://www.hotchkis.net/product/front-sp...ort-suspension/

Now I've gotten a Addco 674 E-body rear bar, 7/8", and I believe a solid bar, not tubular.

https://www.amazon.com/Addco-674-Sway-Bar-Kit/dp/B004A0ZATM

How do yo guys think of the tubular and non-tubular sway bars will react on my 71 Challenger? I haven't seen a combination like this on any of the forums. I believe that they should be fine, but I would appreciate a few other opinions.

Next up, torsion bars!





Ryan

The front bar is good (lighter weight being hollow and the OD is the primary factor for stiffness).

The rear bar is too small at 7/8 but adjustable ends are good (make it at its shortest for better results)... also its better to be hung on the frame instead of the axle... choice of designs.. easier to install on the axle (thus easier to sell).

I use 1.25" solid front and 1.0" solid rear... each custom-made. Then, I've layed with the end links ... 1/2 rubber, 1/2 poly to satisfy my results... experience tells what a driver likes/doesn't like.

I've recently purchased a Firm Feel 1.25" hollow front bar to try out... lighter weight is the goal.

Well, Mitch would know the handling dynamics of the short wheelbase E body. If I used those in my longer 70 Charger, I'd have a severe oversteer condition. There is a ratio I read somewhere for determining a rear sway bar. It was something like size the rear bar between 60-75 PERCENT the size of the front. The front needs the huge bar due to the greater amount of weight the front end carries.
Also, look into the actual strength of that tubular bar. Once you get all the specifications figured out, you'll know what to expect.
OR you could just bolt it all in and feel for yourself.

In retrospect... I think having both bars in will be better than having no bars in.

Hmmmmm. The Hotchkis stock rear bar is 13/16", which is slightly larger.

I'll start figuring out some math here and see what's up.

And you're absolutely right, having both bars in, compared to nothing will be a big benefit.

Not sure I agree with that, as the balance between the F/R is what is the goal, no matter how its achieved, to a large degree.

The tires don't care about a mis-match of brands nor tubular vs solid. Styles, mounting, lever arms and so forth are factors to consider. My 1" under axle bar produces the same rate as a 3/4" frame hung bar because of mounting points and arm length.

Balance is where its at.

I think the point would be sprung weight vs unsprung weight as far as the best mounting of the rear bar.

Yes, the tires have no idea which bar type is used, or where it's mounted. They only 'feel' the movement of the body of the car. And so the size and shape and portion of the tire patch/tire in contact with the pavement in corners.

Math? I suggest fractions.

13/16" is smaller than 7/8".
7/8 = 14/16".

You're right. I didn't actually do the math and typed it before I left for the Red Barn.

So I think I'll get the Hotchkis rear bar, sell the addco.

considering your setup appears to be still in boxes, i wouldn't sell any (unless 100% refundable) until you drive it in anger.

I have now 8! bars that i have collected in the last few years of racing my neon and now SRT 5 front and 4 rear bars to fiddle with.

the mentioned 'small' 3/4" rear bar will loosen my barracuda up pretty nicely... so to echo the others: 'It depends.'

Why not go to an adjustable bar setup instead of having 4 or 5 different ones, out of curiosity ?

I know someone with cockpit adjustable bars, mine are not that fancy...but by sliding the end link attachment point (no holes used, has clamped on style link mounts) you can dial them in pretty well. (Non Mopar, but you get the idea though... I have adjustable front and rear actually)

I'm not sure if the following is correct. I've had very little suspension tuning experience on Mopars. If any of the following is incorrect, hopefully someone will point out the mistake.

If you have not purchased Torsion bars yet, you may be able select a slightly different size torsion bar to make your sway bars perform correctly. In other words, if you are concerned the sway bar will be to stiff, purchase torsion bars that are a size smaller. If you are concerned the sway bar will be to soft, buy torsion bars a size larger.

The torsion bar and the sway bar work together to determine how much body roll is experienced. As has already been mentioned, the balance between the front and the rear of the car is important. So, if you have stiff rear springs and a stiff rear sway bar, you will need a considerable amount of roll resistance in the front. The roll resistance in the front will be determined by the torsion bars and the sway bar.

In my limited experience with brand X cars, I've had to swap sway bars and springs several times on each car to achieve the desired outcome. So, I wouldn't sell any parts until the car is performing in a satisfactory manner for you.

I agree, and well stated, but, one can over do the roll resistance, unless one is seeking to return to a solid front axle set-up.

if that was to me... the sway bars are very cheap. 2 of the rear bars are adjustable aftermarket. the rest are OEM of one model or another some were only $45/$60 new from mopar. I would swap to smaller front bar for asphalt/sealed lots and larger for concrete... sadly no option and room for front adj without getting real creative and rolling your own $$$$

Sorry about not responding sooner. Had a family health issue keep me away.

I'm not looking for an all out autocross machine. I just want something that handles decently, and take the abuse I'm going to put it through.

Moving forward, I think I'll probably get about a 1" torsion bar. And alot of firm feel steering parts.

biggest rear bar i could find, adjustable, is the hellwig 7/8" http://www.sdtrucksprings.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=10105

I'd love to have ricks 1" rear bar!

A long time ago (late 70s) I had custom sway bars made for my Challenger by a semi-pro SCCA Trans Am racer/driver... he made me a 1.25" front, and 1.0" rear... both duplicating the stock shapes.... they work great and in harmony together. I've fine-tuned them by trying different end-link combos ... front 1/2 rubber... 1/2 poly; the rear rubber end links.

Another matter of concern all should consider, is the front k-frame gap where the sway bar passes through it. IF its crushed up a little (such as from jacking the front of the car at the k-frame cent section, or road damage, etc), a large diameter (~1.25") front sway bar will likely have difficulty fitting through the k-frame... requiring some extensive labor to expand and open that area.

I have a Hotchkis 1.5" tubular on the front and a Hellwig 7/8" E body bar on the rear of my A-body. How mix-n-match is that? Also have heims for links on the rear with modded F250 links on the front.

I did plenty of testing and tuning with my Charger. All on the street though. A track would certainly highlight more flaws since things like oversteer seem to be exponential with speed!
From 1984 to 2002, I messed around with a couple of second gen Camaros. They used the same suspension as the same year Trans Am cars so I played around with coil springs, sway bars, different bushings, etc. When I got my Charger in 2000. I did the same thing. I noticed that the front sway bar was very close to the contour of a 73-76 A body. At the time, Dusters and Darts were still common in the wrecking yards. I took a bar from some Dart and walked the yard until I found a thick bar that was similar in shape. It turned out to be in a mid 70s Chevy 2wd truck! What ???
I took the 1.25 bar and cut the ends off of it, then had a shop drill the ends to attach the end links. At this time, nobody had the 1.25 solid bar in stock on the shelf. For approx $70 including new bushings, I had a custom front bar. At first I used a 1 1/8" rear bar from a Ford truck, only because it fit the car between the frame rails. The car handled pretty good. I had stock 318 leaf springs and 1" MP torsion bars too. It still understeered at the limit but overall it was better than stock.
I later changed to the 18" wheels and tires. The front tire is a 275-40-18, rear is a 295-45-18. I added XHD leafs and switched to a 1 1/8" front bar and a 7/8" rear bar. My thinking was that reducing front roll stiffness while increasing rear stiffness should balance the car out.
Wrong.
The car now oversteered too easily! Even when coasting through turns, the rear often felt as if it wanted to come around faster than I wanted. I tried switching the rear end links to rubber on place of urethane but it made little if any difference. It was fun to drift and mess around but the thought of a spinout on the street while trying to avoid an accident worried me.

Looking at the principles to balanced handling showed me that I had a bias toward REAR roll stiffness. I figured that a safer car is one that has a slight tendency to UNDERsteer but can be made to OVERsteer with application of throttle.
I currently have a 1.15" torsion bar. I REinstalled the 1.25" GM truck front sway bar, but replaced the 7/8" rear bar with a 3/4" bar (Frame hung) from a 1983 ImperiaL. This is the same bar that can be found on most Diplomat/Gran Fury Police cars.
This combination worked great....Until I replaced the tires! I had an 11 year old set of Nitto 555s and replaced them with the same size Nitto NT01s. The oversteer is back but not as bad.
Son of a beeeeech!

hey swinger how did you purchase this bar? Been waiting for them to release it but they still only advertise the 1.25" sway bar for the front

Its only for the 67-72 A-body Dan, that one has been 1.5" from its beginning because of how far forward it mounts.

The longer lever arms do reduce the effectiveness compared to the 73-76 A body bars.

Alrighty then. So I'm not making a all out autocross car. Just a good daily driver / new auto archaeology hunting rig. So it should work out well if I can get the matching sway bars.

I'm going to do a post here shortly on my buildup.