Sons 71 Duster

Original 6 cyl. We have a V8 in it now.

He insists on going for the G-ride. I am leaning for the look to save expense. But, why not just do it right to start. Triangular 4-link rear aftermarket fronts.

Those of you who have cars, projects, experience with this.... What would you do if you were starting fresh?

I'm a drag racer and do most of my own work. Welding, making, & cutting is something we are not scared of. We can make most of the stuff sold or buy if the manufacturer got it right.

So post your experiences and suggestions.

Search this forum, look at the 67 Valiant build. The answers are already there.

Still have not seen any advantage to ditching the factory setup in competition, especially on an A body. Upgrading the stock stuff with an aggressive alignment goes a long ways in the G machine Mopar world. In the rear a torque arm 3 link would be my first choice with a floater 9".

I agree with both above, Clean slate, I would make your own 3 link for the rear, it's really not tough, and will out handle anything else on most tracks. Stock front with a Borgeson box, big front sway bar, 1.18 Torsion bars, aftermarket upper A arms. Subframe connectors. Shoot for 275+ tires front and rear. Have fun!

What is he going to use the car for? Auto X/ track or just a street car?
If you can build your own 3 link for the rear it would not cost any more than good springs leaf springs and shocks and most likely work just as well.
For the front I would take a hard look at that Hemi Denny front end and compare it to doing a stock rebuild with good parts and pick which one you think will work best for him.

I would be fine with 4 wheel disk and some big low profile rubber.

He wants to autocross the car. I overdo everything on my own car. So guess what....

Dr. Diff has the brakes,spindles,lines and axles. Firm Feel has the tbars,bushings,tierods,balljoints and upper control arms. They also offer a rear frame hung swaybar. Front swaybar there are a few to choose,Hotchkis,Firm Feel and Hellwig make good ones. Wheels you want at least 18x9, tires a 275/35/18 minimum in a bridgstone re71, Dunlop zII star spec, bfg rival or the like. Car can WIN autox with that setup. Borgeson steering box will make it feel like a new car.

Don't forget an aluminum engine and trans, Passon aluminum case 4 speed, etc

...Or you could just come to the one stop shop and buy the best system on the market. We have put so much time and energy into our system to make the best handling package on the market. It is a complete kit and improves the geometry on the factory suspension without having to compromise the integrity of the chassis and add the complexity of fully adjustable shocks and coilovers. We've proved for years at events around the country that when it comes to design, engineering and execution, we have the best handling kit on the market.

www.hotchkis.net

i would upgrade the wheels and tires and take it out as-is.

if he still likes the auto-x then start the upgrades.

dumping money into race car before racing i think is a waste.

thats the beauty of the auto-x events, run what you brung.

Yeah those frame connectors.......can't say anything nice say nothing, yes momma
The upper control arms, nice
The pitman and idle arm? Are they longer than oem? If so OK

Mostly your products are for guys with only wrenches. I can make a lot of the products you sell specifically for our car and promote my business as well as teach my kid tricks of the trade. Not knocking your products or the guys using them. But, something like frame connectors we can accomplish a stiffer frame a lot nicer than a bolt in part.

Thanks for sharing your products. May be looking at a few.

I completely agree with this statement.

I would start by stiffening the body, everything you can do/make yourself if your saving money: stitch weld the body, make your own subframe connectors, inner fender braces, torque boxes, lower rad braces, roll cage, and weld the all in (depending on what track your running look at their rule books for the allowed mods you can do to your car first).

weld up and gusset your kframe as well.

This is where I'd start first before you buy any aftermarket parts, this is so what you do end up buying can do their job efficiently.

Planning on a custom fab frame connector. Have seen the ones that are shaped to weld to floor. Fit was not that good. But, the guy installing wasn't that good either. Lol.

Planned to relocate rear leafs and minitub while replacing trunk and extension panels. But, if I did a four link moving the springs would be unnecessary. I looked at the three links mentioned. Looks like a lot of trouble making a center mount over the driveshaft. Thought about a wishbone upper mounting the single heim on top housing and the Why to the inner frame. Problem is with rear up in car the wishbone may interfere width center section. Just have to see how the rest progresses.

Not sure why anyone thinks a 4 link is a good choice for a handling street car. Not enough room under our vehicle for a properly designed on without floor mods.

You asked the experienced people, you were given links to a proven, WINNING build and yet you choose to ignore the answers to your own request.

When a rep of one the the BEST suppliers to handling MoPar makes suggestions you belittle him.

Seems you already have the answers you want, why did you come here?

You will not find an aftermarket replacement front suspension, ala AlterKation, Hemi Denny, QA1, that will out perform the stock based one in all areas. You might find one that is lighter, you might find one that is roomier, you might even find one than can handle on par with the stock based setup in the link you were provided. What you will not find is one that is stronger or better engineered.

Is the stock setup perfect? Nope, but the info is available to you to fix it's issues.

This x1000. While Leon is busy ignoring advice he asked for, I'll be busy kicking Camaro and Mustang [censored]....

http://www.cachassisworks.com/site_images/58XX/5857-XXX/5857-F21-02/5857-F21-02_5926-F21_rear_AT.jpg
Im definitely in the stock front t-bar front camp, but the rear needs help. Especially when you add some power AND a manual trans with sticky tires. My future plan will be a Strange S-60 F-body center housing, ^^^^^ Chassis works billet watts, torque arm that mounts to the F-body mounts and some coilovers. I have tore the weight off my aluminum driveshaft AGAIN even adding 2 half leafs to the Hotchkis A-body springs. Leafs cant handle a 335 tire period.

I think if you had any understanding of the English language you could clearly see I was not belittling Hotckis. I looked at their products. They are bolt in. Meaning they are meant for customers who cannot or do not want to fabricate. I have actually built cars. You turn corners I go straight, with a street car, and get more mph in 1320 ft than you do in your racing. When I speak with these manufacturers they soon understand the work I am capable of and only try to sell me what they think I need.

A drag race 4 link is not made for cornering. But, there are many 4-link designs, some which do not require floor mods.

I asked a simple question. Got some good answers including answers from a performance supplier I am a Wholesale Dealer for suggesting his products. A bolt in frame connector is never as strong as a weld in. If anyone should feel belittled it's the guy who can't fab his own parts and pays $300 for tie rods sold in the circle track market by the foot. If you do not have the machines to make a nice job, understand. But, don't dare accuse me of something simply because I can make some of my own parts.

Leon Hudson
Hudson Restorations

You end up spending more in trial and error than just bolting on the Hotchkis stuff.

But, if you want to fabricate....go ahead.

You could build a system similar to the RMS street lynx for cheap if you could do the fab work yourself, I bet it would cost less than a good leaf spring set up by the time you buy springs, shocks and a sway bar. Plus it is easy to adjust the ride height and balance with good double adjustable coil overs.

It appears you have no idea what a properly setup 4 link for handling requires, in an A body one requirement is floor mods. For straight line use you can get by with less than optimal upper link length.

I understand the English language quite well, it's apparent from your use of it all you want is validation of your preexisting biases. You appear to be completely uninterested in a tried, tested and winning combo, such as the 67 Valiant thread I mentioned.

Which brings us back to, why are you here?

As for the Hotchkis subframe connectors, that is one piece of the setup, make your own if you want, I do not care. But good luck not using bolt on control arms, torsion bars, leaf springs or any other suspension part whether you buy or build it.

This thread makes me ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz..........

67autocross I really appreciate your opinions. It's what is great about this site. Unlike Supercuda who just wants to stir up a fuss that is completely unvalidated.

I'm sure my custom builds will not be cheap. I only use chrome moly tube. Little more money but both lighter and stronger. Heim joints are the expense. I only use one brand. Some bolt in products use brands that I would not. Just something I watch for when buying from aftermarket. Not sure what Hotchkis uses as it was raining and almost dark when I looked at their car at Carlisle. From their website the upper control arms shown are no different than what I have on my drag/street car. So I would build my own. Not that theirs are not nice. They really don't have to be as strong as many think. The stock control arm rear mount is what is weak. Have broken many on old cars.

I would continue my rant with the fight some have wanted to start with me. But, instead I will collect some pics of a 17 year old setup that has worked awesome on my drag/street car. It is not used for high speed cornering as the magnum drag wheels would surely break. But, huge wheelstands and breaking drive line parts have never hurt anything under this car.

What heim joint brand do you prefer?

Emil- if you keep talking about a 3 link my car won't be running for a good while longer!

AROURA bearing company.

Why not build a front end with coil over shocks and stock geometry upper A arms and give that a try? It should handle about that same but you could get rid of the torsion bars and make some extra header room. Plus it would be easy to adjust ride height, spring pre-load and if they are double adjustable both compression and rebound damping. Kind of a half way between a stock and full tube system.
I would really like when people venture off the beaten path and try something different, if it does not work you can always put it back to stock.




http://www.moparsuspension.com/suspensio...pport+Hoops.php

Yea, but what model. The lower level stuff doesn't not last as long as the upper models.

Who is he planning on autocrossing with? Rules will dictate what is allowable within class structure and I'd look those over before I started cutting or fabing anything, even something as simple as sub-frame connector style and installation can be dictated by these rule sets.

SCCA stock classes will be the most stringent and will limited you severely, even in allowable wheel sizes and tire choices. Touring and Prepared classes start loosing up some but still are not a free for all of modification by any means.

Goodguys and Optima will be the most lenient and are run what you brung type of organizations. This is probably the closest thing to the NHRA Super classes you may be familiar with where allowable mods are wide open.

If you are going down the path of heavy modification, you obviously want adjustability in your system. You want to be able to adjust roll center heights front and rear. Too low in front and you generate too much body roll. Too high in back and you compromise corner exit bite. Up front you need instant centers that will generate negative camber gain while maximizing caster and minimizing roll center migration left to right. Scrub radius amount and ackerman percentages are also considerations to this design. Minimizing anti-dive is a debatable point, but is somewhat contingent upon the wheel rates you are shooting for and how those mesh with chosen roll rates. Similarly, instant centers in the rear combined with/without anti-squat properties will need to be decided on and combined with the adjustable roll center. You likely could achieve this with multiple mounting positions on your link arm brackets but you need to also be mindful of roll steer introduced into the design and how to manage that.

Obviously a lot of concerns to keep in mind as you layout a replacement set up. 3 links, 4 links, 5 links, torque arm, truck arm are all out there for consideration.

When I autocrossed.....27 years ago. I had to run E stock. My Plymouth turismo had the block decked to zero. The head milled and a big cam. A guy with a Shelby charger with larger wheels Webber carbs and a lot of experience ran neck and neck with me, but he was in modified. Every rainy event I won ftd.

My son has never been fast in a car. He rides the heck out of his little 125 dirtbike. And handles my ttr250 well although it's heavy. He has a very good seat of the pants feel.

Have a few friends who know suspensions well. One worked for Petty, Earnhardt, and Woods bros. He is in bad shape. The other worked for him.

If I built a rear suspension it would have to have a lot of adjustment. Because setup is uncharted territory. I may just stay with leafs. Just depends.

Really with a 318 engine you just can't put much power down coming out of a corner. But, I have several R5P7 engines sporting 575 torque and 800 HP that would be awesome. They do not fit around stock steering. Alterkation has a decent front suspension and rear suspension. I just prefer a strut rod support rather than a fixed a arm.

The rod ends I buy are from RJ race cars. Pro stock uses same. I have rod end 17 years old with no noticeable wear.

Just kicking some ideas around at this point.

Thank for the interest.

I had an 85 Turismo, electronic carburetor, I hated that mofo.

73 Duster road course, 161 mph

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1851312/1.html

Probably the ultimate A body build

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1592993/1.html

On a '71 A-body? Maybe an issue on the slightly tighter first gen A in your avatar. I have not done it, obviously, seems odd to me on a car we stuff big blocks and Gen III Hemis into would not fit the R5P7.

I have a few comments. Hotchkis is good stuff, but the "improved geometry" claim may be true on B&E, but not really on the A body. The only improvement is an increase in caster which is common to most the aftermarket UCA solutions. Technically, the geometry was changed, but the claim is a little thin. On the B&E they moved the mounting point, that was not necessary on the A. The A body suspension was well designed from the factory, especially for its time. That said, if I was helping someone w/ a stock oriented car I would not hesitate to recommend the Hotchkis. I think they hurt themselves with their pricing, they are on the high end of the market segment. Their UCAs also have clearance issues w/ certain brake packages.

As far as the suspension mods / direction. As was earlier stated, depends on the class you wish to compete in. If you are going to a more competitive class then cutting the car to put in a properly designed 3 link should not deter you. As others have said, don't bother w/ a 4 link. From an Engineer's perspective the 4 is a compromise for the cornering cars and one of the upper bars is a redundant member that is not required. Placement of the upper link L-R and effective distance from the center of the axle are important, compliance in fore-aft at the attachment helps to not shock the tires and helps in planting power coming out of corners. Example: http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=48576&highlight=sutton+link

The stock based stuff is good to a certain level. The K-frame can be reinforced, LCAs reinforced, good brakes are available. I have not seen a clear advantage of the bolt in coil over conversions for handling. Some packaging issues are addressed. But, as usual, most "bolt in" stuff out there also has compromises and is expensive.

On the upper end of the spectrum you can look at John Sandberg's car for some inspiration. Picture attached. This car has wide 5 hubs and a fabricated coil over set up in the front. I'm pretty sure he runs a 3 link in the rear. This is a car that was specifically built for and nationally competitive in the C-prepared class.

Know what you mean. We knocked the tamper plug out, unhooked the solenoid and manually adjusted. Well a good friend who worked on them at the dealership. Helped me a ton. I didn't have a clue back then. Sometimes, still don't LOL

Looking for 18X8 for front or bigger if it fits. Then 20x10 or possibly 12" for rear. Mini tubbed and relocated springs.

What fits?

Son wants something with a bright finish rim and prefers a flat black center to match stripes. Can make the rear any width we need to accommodate wheels. Would prefer to run the least backspaced wheel.

We are just to short on time right now to go much over stock just now. Kids and dad have too many irons in the fire.

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post1853151
Leon if using stock front track width you can get an 18x9 to fit easily with a 30-35mm backspace. If using an aftermarket front rotor/hub brake package it varies +/- 1/4" on backspacing.

30-35mm is 1 1/4-1 3/8" back spacing. Is this what you meant? Or is that figure offset?

18X9 would be great.

Thanks, we currently have 73 spindles and stock disk brakes.

Yes I meant offset sorry. A wheel with 6-6.5 total backspace.

Looking at year one Rallye 17x9 with 4.250 bs. So I check with Percy's fitment tool. Flemsy pos. But, can quickly see on 73 disk 4.5" should fit. We have searched the wheel world over. Front wheels are not that hard to come by. The rear with mini tubs and spring relocation 17x10 easy but with 45.5" rear housing the 4.5" backspacing seams impossible in the cast aluminum wheel market. Most of these wheels have 6.75~ backspacing for new cars with stock rears.

Billet specialties has the wheels. But, over take a turn faster than you should. Is the light spoked wheel going to survive?