Steering Box Flex

What do you guys make of this?



I just finished the install of a Borgeson power steering box in the car. This is the second version of the box with the large sector shaft. There is a considerable amount flex in the case when running the tires from side to side. You could still see a small amount of flex in the case even with the front end in the air.

I know the first version of the boxes had issues with not mounting flush to the K-frame, but this is right up against at all three mounting points with the bolts tight.

I haven't taken the car out for a drive yet; I discovered this when checking for leaks.
Front tires are Nitto 555, 255-45-18. PS pump valve is shimmed to 850 PSI.

How's the K-frame? Are there any hidden cracks or breaks you don't know of? Is the K-frame reinforced?

I agree with above. I'd guess you have an issue with the k frame/steering box mount or bolts are loose etc...?

From what I remember, this is a common problem in the mopar world. Firm Feel sells a sector support kit that was used to help stop the K-frame flex when steering. I believe it's caused due to the long distance from the steering box to the turning linkages. Turning the tire causes a large moment arm on the steering box that the K-frame can't handle. From what I can tell it was just a bearing that slid onto the steering side of the pitman bolt with a bracket that connected to the K-frame. That bracket coinciding with the bearing. Since the bracket is now constrained underneath the K-frame and the bearing is taking some of the radial loads from the pitman arm, the steering box wouldn't translate as much while turning.

Call Firm Feel and see what he can do; however, I'm not sure how this would adapt to the Borgeson box. You may have to make up your own.

http://firmfeel.com/a_body_mopar_sector_support_kit.html

http://firmfeel.com/img/old/Primesteer.pdf

I would not be happy with that amount movement. And if with tires lifted you have similar but less movement, pretty much points to a K frame issue, IMO. You didn't by chance observe the same test with the OEm box, did you?

I'd say with the tires lifted and some amount at all of the motion occurred that bolts were loose. Virtually no resistance force with the front off the ground.

Damon

The mounts for the steering box have been known to be a weak link. They were designed for use with skinny bias ply tires on a car was that was considered to be used and scrapped by 100,000 miles or less. Add 40 years of age, heating and cooling cycles, twice the engine power, twice the tire width and.....
I welded gussets in my K member to add rigidity to the steering box mounting pad. No problems on my end. Firm Feel Stage 3, 275-40 front tires and all is well.

I already noticed an improvement in steering feel after I welded this simple plate to the steeringbox mount and lower K-member lip, shown below.
I'm sure more inforcement in that area will help.

My box only moves like that when the bolts back out. Locktite FTW.

I would pull the box and weld in gussets to the K. More than likely there's an actual failure point somewhere.

Yeah, sure enough the K is flexing; the box is perfectly rigid. My Dad has an 80 Diplomat that we did this install on too and it doesn't flex at all even though his Dip uses the same K as my 87. There is a difference though...



Here is a shot of the mount from underneath on my car. My father's car has no space in between the box mount and the K like mine does. Unfortunately Firm Feel doesn't have a support kit for M body cars; I guess I'm going to have to weld in some kind of a patch to shore this section up.

Thanks for the input guys.

Make patterns out of cardboard, then trace them onto .120 wall or 1/8" steel plate.
Weld into place.
Turn corners faster.
Impress chicks.
Or not.

And as an additional point, this new box has a faster(?) turn ratio, which also means if steering wheel is turned equally as fast as before, the forces are now greater, instigating greater flex on the mounts, every time.

I would do the reinforcement and add the Firm Feel sector support kit.

hmmm I never locktite mine in. Is the bolts backing out a common occurance? I welded and gusseted my kframe should I be alright?

I was down by Charlotte at the NASCAR All Star Race and the attached photo is how they support the sector, which is very similar to how Firm Feel does it, they just have it welded in.

I have the firm feel sector shaft support with a Borgeson box, works fine. My K-frame has all the gaps around the box mount filled with plates and welded.

I like that setup, but how much does that bearing sit below the K-member.

Could you take a board to show against the K-member extending to the bottom of that bearing assy. like this:

don't want anything to catch if this happens.

OK... did it with a 3' level. The part of the nut that sticks out past the pillow block bearing is about 1/2" lower than the oil pan, but it sticks out about 1" past the bearing. Looks like I could trim the part that sticks out past the bearing with no loss in function and then it would not be lower than the oil pan.

So you'd cut it off flush with the aluminum collar that is pictured with that set screw with blue paint around it?

Then, that would make it flush with the bottom of K-member?

Picture could help. Could also benefit from flipping the bolts to put the nuts on top.

Thanks. That helped.

I'd put pan head Allen bolts pointing upward. It would look cleaner and less chance of being whacked. But might make tightening the nuts on the other side a PITA.

With a car with a lot of suspension mods, people have a much greater tendency to look under it.

Thanks a ton for that picture.

Makes me think.

So I have this box and I have the same problem you had. Altbough because now it flexes I get a leak in the box and ps fluid everywhere, did you experience the aame thing? Im hoing to locktite them in(my kmember has been fulky gusseted and welded up before I did this install)

My flex is due to bolts backing out

As a second question, with the firm feel sector support kit what does the bearing go on to? Does it go on the shaft below the locknut? is there enough shaft on your gyys cars to do that? With the box I have the locknut is barely flush with the shaft, so I dont think this kit would help, in this case

68Cuda440 is running the small spline 68-72 A-body pitman arm. So he is running a small spline box.

Dangina, are you running a large spline box? From the pictures in the posts I've read the large splines have less threads showing. But I don't know if that's been corrected with the new Borgenson boxes.

Do you have the new or old version?

Not sure, but I think I have the old. (I bought it over a year ago and I just fired the engine yesterday) Im pretty sure its cracked as I lose all of my fluid pretty quick, im pissed off as hell as I havent even driven the car and my $800 f***ing ps box is broken off the bat

Large spline box here

Do you have the correct style fittings on the box with the O-Rings intact?

I believe i do, i did it a year ago, I'll have to check tommorrow, but thanks for this, from what i can see there is no leaking from the fittings

I don't have bolts works loose but ny box had a pinhole leak in a weld right in a corner.
It would drip a drop of oil about every 10 seconds on the floor when the engine was running.

I was offered a replacement box by Borgenson but declined because of the time my car would be out of use. The car is a daily and its old powersteering hose had broken upon removal so I fixed the tiny leak myself.
At first tried to weld it up, but that wasn't that easy as I hoped because of remaining fluid behind it. But I was able to use a small punch and close up the pinhole fairly easy.

With the sectorsupport, the original nut seems to be replaced with one where the bearing is mounted on.
I like to get this support kit as well for my box one day.

Yes, the nut is also the shaft that goes through the bearing, you do not use the nut that comes with the box. Before I put mine on the road I am going to trim it down some so it does not hang below the K-frame. In the following two pictures I added red dots on the nut below and above the bearing to help you see it.

[quote=dangina]Not sure, but I think I have the old. (I bought it over a year ago and I just fired the engine yesterday) Im pretty sure its cracked as I lose all of my fluid pretty quick

Is it possible that you reversed the supply and return hoses? I think that would cause a leak. On the new style boxes, it would be easy to make this mistake.

T

This is a good question. For reference which fitting is which? Is the one closest to the engine the supply or return?

thanks! This was most useful!

My Firm Feel kit did not bolt to the K frame without binding the bearing,
I had to massage the mounting tabs a bit to accomplish keeping the bearing free.

This is probably the result of the loose QC of 45 year old cars, but keep that in mind when you tighten the two tabs.

Joe

to avoid confusion (and I can't find anything on it) is the supply or return line the fitting closest to the engine?

On the newer style box the supply is the port closest to the radiator. The return is closest to the firewall.

On the older style box (Delphi 600) the supply is the 14mm port. The return is the 16mm port.

Engine side is return.

curious does anyone have a comparison pic of the old box vs the new? When did the new versions come out?

Just a note on the simple reinforcement plate shown in an earlier post of mine;
Today I had a glance at it, and low and behold I noticed the top welds had worked themselves loose from the plate.
Now the plate was originally zinc-coated, so the welds probably hadn't penetrated enough, but stil goes to show there's a lot of movement down there.

I added new welds on the now fresh ground metal and also added another plate for more reinforcement.
I felt a difference in steering feel/tightness when taking the car for a spin afterwards.

If the hoses were reversed, there would be no power assist.

I "adjusted" the lip on the K-frame on mine with a very large pair of channel lock pliers to get the angle to match the bearing mounting plate so there would be no binding.

I assume that means that FF is not using a self-centering bearing with that kit. That's puzzling to me with the variables involved with age as you pointed out, and
production tolerances.

pulled my box last week, found two cracks on the bottom side of my box where the fluid was leaking from, shipped it to borgeson, we will see what happens, pretty choked about the whole thing. Assuming how much I paid for the damn thing, one would think they should be good outta the box. Foolish me.

Man that does suck, give them the opportunity to make it right. Metal breaks, sucks but it is what it is. If they don't want to give you the difference from a new box to an old, i'd throw them under the bus.

So....after 2 months I finally got my new box!!!! My box was deemed faulty (2 cracks I mentioned before) So boregson did step up and gave me the new gen box and this is what I have to say about it:

-It is smaller than the 1st gen, I barley got the old gen box out without removing the headers and it was scraping on the headers/side of the engine bay trying to get that thing out. This new gen box slipped in without even coming close to binding on anything and it looks like I have a lot more clearance now,

-because it is smaller (dimensionally) it may be lighter? Have no way to prove this as I no longer have a first gen box

-The old gen box you had to grind one little spot for kframe clearance, new one no grinding.

-The new gen box comes with rubber boots to protect the bearings on the box, one goes on before the steering coupler, and one goes on before the pitman arm goes on.

-I got a little bit more thread engagement out of this box than I did with the first gen with the pitman arm.

The bad:

-not really a bad point, just an annoying one. On the old box they had a 14mm and a 16mm fittings, on the new one it has 2 16mm ports, so you need to buy another 16mm fitting if you going from the first gen to second gen.

-I haven't hooked up my steering column just yet but judging by the angle of the new box, I'd say the the angle is worse than the old one, so It looks like I may have to shim this box, whereas the 1st gen I didnot have to.


Right now I'm trying to figure out a way to get the sector support kit to work without welding the damn thing on my kframe, I may end up making a new bracket altogether, The one I got had 2 bends in it (looking at some posts on here seems like others only have 1? bend in their bracket with slotted holes?) its not even close for me to drill 2 holes into the kframe lip to put bolts through. I tried rebending and straightening the damn thing, I can get it close, but only if I weld it on...

Good deal on the box.

I haven't dealt with the bracket so I can't help you there.