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New Borgeson Box install.

Posted By: tahoechallenge

New Borgeson Box install. - 01/03/15 03:48 AM

I received the new Borgeson steering box last week and I am starting to install it in my 70, 340 powered Challenger. I purchased it through Summit before Christmas. I figured it would take a while to get it, but to my surprise it only took a week. It is replacing a stage 3 box, that was leaking. I plan on reusing my fast ratio arms for now.
I removed the old box this evening. I sat the new and old side by side to compare. (I remember pictures of the original Borg box showed that the input shaft was tilted towards the engine, and the original was straight. Guys who were installing it were shimming the box so that it would line up better with the steering coupler.) With both boxes clamped to the work bench the new one seems like it is tilted, while the old one the is straight. This time however, it looks like it is tilted towards the inner fender and not the engine. I'll see how it looks when I bolt it in. Another difference is that the output shaft hangs down a little further. I think the pitman arm will sit a 1/4" lower than the original box.
I plan on bolting it in tomorrow. I still have to make the steering coupler adapter, and figure out the hoses.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/03/15 06:35 AM

Anxious to see your take on the Borg vs. FF.
Posted By: MuuMuu101

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/03/15 08:48 AM

Quote:

I sat the new and old side by side to compare... With both boxes clamped to the work bench the new one seems like it is tilted, while the old one the is straight. This time however, it looks like it is tilted towards the inner fender and not the engine... Another difference is that the output shaft hangs down a little further. I think the pitman arm will sit a 1/4" lower than the original box.
I plan on bolting it in tomorrow. I still have to make the steering coupler adapter, and figure out the hoses.



Pictures please!
Posted By: Kern Dog

10 to 1 steering ratio??? - 01/03/15 09:27 AM

If you use the Fast ratio gear, the 14 to one ratio tightens up to about than 10 to 1. No new car today has a ratio that tight. I hope you are aware of that. It might not be fun if the car feels twitchy.
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: 10 to 1 steering ratio??? - 01/04/15 04:12 AM

Here are a few pictures comparing the new box to the original.

"If you use the Fast ratio gear, the 14 to one ratio tightens up to about than 10 to 1"

This could be a problem. I will just wait and see.




Posted By: dangina

Re: 10 to 1 steering ratio??? - 01/04/15 04:18 AM

Quote:

Here are a few pictures comparing the new box to the original.

"If you use the Fast ratio gear, the 14 to one ratio tightens up to about than 10 to 1"

This could be a problem. I will just wait and see.




I also did this on my car, I even did the firm feel roller bearing idler arm kit upgrade as well. It's 1.7 turns lock to lock with the 350mm wheel which is the exact same as what the high end pro touring camaro guys like big red have. They seem to like it
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: 10 to 1 steering ratio??? - 01/04/15 05:38 AM

It would be cool if a set of arms were available that were in between stock and fast ratio to end up at 12-1 with a Borg.
Posted By: MuuMuu101

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/04/15 06:46 AM

I know this may be me, but why does this area looked grooved? Is it just the coating or is it physically grooved? It almost looks like someone take large steps in their machining process.

Attached picture 8384622-Steeringboxcomparisonjpg2_zps2e57dda5.jpg
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/04/15 07:20 AM

Those are machine marks. It started off looking like this:



Borgeson then chucked it in a lathe, cut it down, and welded the ears on it for the mopar application.
Posted By: MuuMuu101

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/04/15 07:44 AM

Quote:

Those are machine marks. It started off looking like this:



Borgeson then chucked it in a lathe, cut it down, and welded the ears on it for the mopar application.



I don't think you could chuck that on a lather as it looks like one giant cast piece. It almost looks like they fixed it on a CNC mill and took the largest passes they can get away with. No offense, but it kind of shows how Borgeson doesn't give a darn for this product. The box looks terrible, visually. If I were Borgeson or the machinist, I sure as wouldn't want to put my name behind that kind of quality. Even if my product was 100% functional (which this part isn't since it has alignment and pitman arm issues) I wouldn't be happy with that kind of work.
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/04/15 08:49 AM

It almost looks like they fixed it on a CNC mill and took the largest passes they can get away with.

I agree with that. As far as the look goes; when it is installed in the car it looks a lot better. The angle to the steering coupler seemed good when I installed it today. Time will tell, but I think it will be a good upgrade.
Posted By: MarkZ

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/04/15 11:42 PM



I keep watching these Borgeson threads as the box in my car is up next for replacement. I'm curious if this thing's improvement over a FF box warrants dealing with the headaches I've been reading about.

Anxiously awaiting your results...
Posted By: mopardamo

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/05/15 02:40 AM

I'm hoping that the new box does not have headaches:-)

Damon
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/05/15 10:49 PM

Let me explain that this time the box is deliberately angled toward the steering column. This box is narrower than the first iteration, so it would be impossible to put the pitman and sector in the same spot as OE. They chose to put the pitman in the OE spot and turn the box slightly to the driver side to compensate. There are those who will criticize, but the fact remains it will work fine and is a $100 cheaper than the last version with 100% new parts inside. On the exterior, the pressure fitting is larger which I'm in the process of making. Any questions call or PM me.
Posted By: dangina

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/06/15 02:36 AM

Quote:

Let me explain that this time the box is deliberately angled toward the steering column. This box is narrower than the first iteration, so it would be impossible to put the pitman and sector in the same spot as OE. They chose to put the pitman in the OE spot and turn the box slightly to the driver side to compensate. There are those who will criticize, but the fact remains it will work fine and is a $100 cheaper than the last version with 100% new parts inside. On the exterior, the pressure fitting is larger which I'm in the process of making. Any questions call or PM me.



will they compensate those who bought the old box or exchange their old box for a new version?do they have any problems with the nut not fully engaging like on the old ones?
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/06/15 05:14 AM

I was able to bolt the box in without any problems. The coupler alignment came out fine. The offset towards the inner fender shouldn't case any problems. The sector shaft is in almost in the exact space as the original. I am still waiting on fittings. The box uses 16x1.5 inverted flare fittings. I should have that figured out tomorrow.
The only problem so far is reusing my sector support bearing. The nut one the new box is 22x1.5; so the original one won't work. I'll come up with something .




Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/06/15 06:37 AM

Sure does free up a lot of real estate! Doesn't look much bigger than a manual box.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/06/15 03:35 PM

Wish there was some kind of process a customer of Borgeson could use to upgrade their old box for the new one. Im glad they're making an effort to improve on products, but customers doing R&D for them should be worth something to them.
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/06/15 06:59 PM

Quote:

I was able to bolt the box in without any problems. The coupler alignment came out fine. The offset towards the inner fender shouldn't case any problems. The sector shaft is in almost in the exact space as the original. I am still waiting on fittings. The box uses 16x1.5 inverted flare fittings. I should have that figured out tomorrow.
The only problem so far is reusing my sector support bearing. The nut one the new box is 20x1.5; so the original one won't work. I'll come up with something .








I make the fittings. I had to make a new pressure fitting. Shipping on the 14th.
Posted By: 1fastabody

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/07/15 12:22 AM

Bergman, Is there any advantage to the "New" Box over the old version? I have the old version that I have not installed yet and would like to know if there is any benefit to make a switch to the new one? Thanks
Posted By: gold66cuda

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/07/15 04:33 AM

Here are a few pictures of the new box in a 1966 Barracuda, it fits very well in a narrow early abody engine compartment. Slight angle from the box toward the inner fender but the steering coupler takes up this angle no problem at all, no binding and it feels really smooth through the full rotation. I haven't powered it up yet to see how it feels in use but i am very happy with the fitment. Sorry you cant see the input shaft angle in the pictures as its under the headers but it is very slight, should have taken the pictures before I put the headers back in. Its a nice looking piece!

Attached picture 8387786-photo3.JPG
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/07/15 03:43 PM

Quote:

Bergman, Is there any advantage to the "New" Box over the old version? I have the old version that I have not installed yet and would like to know if there is any benefit to make a switch to the new one? Thanks



The new box is smaller, but feels the same. Just a product evolution on Borgeson's part.
Posted By: sublimehemi

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/09/15 02:25 AM

interesting video on borgeson how they make boxes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXm7Wq64u2A
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/09/15 10:28 PM

Quote:

interesting video on borgeson how they make boxes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXm7Wq64u2A



Right you are, quite interesting. Worth viewing
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/10/15 02:56 AM

Good video, thanks for sharing. I hope to drive the car this weekend. I am moving a little slow from a pulled muscle in my back. The fitting offered by Bergman will be a big help. There is not much available in the 16x1.5 inverted flare. Borgeson offers complete universal type hoses that may or may not fit. They also sell one conversion fitting that converts to -6 jic. The factory hose is -5, so that is not much use. I made my own fitting on my lathe for the supply line, and found a metric tubing nut from O'reilly's for the return. While I was at it, I made a threaded extension to use with sector support kit from Firm Feel. If my back cooperates I will be driving the car soon!
Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/10/15 09:53 AM

Will this box withstand the higher pressure of the PS pump on a 5.7 Hemi?
Posted By: JAMESDART

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/13/15 01:22 PM

I installed this box in my bb duster. The worst part was getting the stock box out of there. I like the way it looks and fits. Can't decide what I want to do for lines and a coupler. I already modified my column for a ujoint since there as no room for the stock coupler.
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/13/15 03:10 PM

I have both if you choose.
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/17/15 05:13 AM

Update: I drove the car this evening. The box felt tight, but the steering effort was very light. After a few minutes of driving back and forth between two streets the steering started acting funny. I drove the car back home and discovered that the fluid was overheated. The pump I am using is out of a 99 Durango. I think the pressure is too high for the new box. I am in the process of adjusting the pump pressure. Hopefully this fixes the overheating and light steering effort.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/17/15 01:30 PM

Did you properly aerate the box and pump before driving?
I remember after I installed my 1st gen Borgbox the fluid was foaming quite a bit after first startup.
I let it sit for a few minutes for the foaming to reside, fill it up a bit then start it up again and turning the wheel lock-to-lock.
Had to do this 2 or 3 times before the foaming stopped and oil was at it's proper level.
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/17/15 06:10 PM

I think that could have been part of the problem. I ran the steering box through it's full travel many times (engine running) before I put the pitman arm on. I probably should have taken it easier on the car when I took it for the first drive. The fluid was aerated when I rechecked it. I know heat does not transfer effectively through aerated oil.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/17/15 06:31 PM

Quote:

I think that could have been part of the problem. I ran the steering box through it's full travel many times (engine running) before I put the pitman arm on. I probably should have taken it easier on the car when I took it for the first drive.



Why? Bleeding out boxes isn't rocket science and sounds like you did it correct and then some.

At the dealership a rack or box was slapped in, cranked a few times left to right on the lift to get the air out, quick trip around the block to make sure the wheel was straight and done.
Posted By: CKessel

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/17/15 08:28 PM

Make sure the car is on its wheels to bleed it out. This will ensure that all the internal valves funtion. If you don't do it this way, you will end up with aireation issues and the fluid level will drop.
Posted By: JAMESDART

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/18/15 04:47 AM

the BERGMAN fitting only works with the older pressure hose, right? I have a new hose, the 73+ style. do you have a pic of the older style hose with your fitting? I don't really like the look of the borgeson hoses but I think those might be a better option for me. if they will work. I think a
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/18/15 05:00 AM

I took some weight of the car but left wheels on the ground,with engine off, filled to line, turned lock to lock several times, fill to line, cycled wheel again, did that until it was no longer taking fluid. Drove it around town, topped it off one more time and never touched it again.
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/18/15 06:47 AM

Today I adjusted the pressure on the pump. The steering feel was better, but it had no effect on the overheating issue. I am not using a p/s cooler, so I think that will be the next thing to do. I may contact Borgeson and see if they have any ideas. I checked the hoses for restrictions and found none. The flow through the new steering box seems good and unrestricted. I did some reading on the different displacements of Saginaw P style power steering pumps and can not find anything drastically different with the pump I am using.
Funny how these little things can side track a project...
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/18/15 07:01 AM

The 99 Durango was a steering box truck wasn't it? Didn't have R&P until 2000?
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/18/15 07:06 AM

Also was this a junkyard pump? The pressure relief valve could be clogged and or stuck.
Posted By: CKessel

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/18/15 05:04 PM

2x Durango is r&p, 4x is box. I also plumbed in a cooler on my car when I put the new FF pump and box in. The new Borgeson unit is looking atractive with its smaller profile than the earlier unit. After watching the video and getting a ah ha moment, now I understand the cost factor for them. 3 units cut up to make one.
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/18/15 07:23 PM

The Rock Auto web sight does not differentiate between the 4wd and 2wd models. I don't know about Chrysler. When I was shimming the pump yesterday, I compared the relief valve and the orifice hole in the output fitting to a Saginaw pump that came with the car. (This part is sometimes referred to as a "flow control valve".) Edit: The Durango had a .143 orifice, and the original pump was .130. I learned that the 4wd guys will change out the output fitting to one with a .143 orifice to increase flow for the hydraulic ram style steering. Guys who use Saginaw pumps with a Mustang 2 rack will change out the flow control valve to one that reduces flow to 2gpm. I do not know what size the orifice is in that valve.
Edit: I bought the reduced flow valve and it measures .113.


Just for background: I never had any problem with heat using the Durango pump with the factory stage 3 box. I had around 4k miles on this setup. To fix the overheating with the Borgeson box, I am going to add a steering cooler. If it still runs hot I will change the flow control valve to the 2gpm style.
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/22/15 03:50 AM

I am all done with the install. I drove the car tonight about 20 miles. The steering was good. After the drive, the power steering temp was 145 degrees. Before, it was over 200.
I used the flow control valve out of the original 70 something pump. I adjusted the pressure to 1200 psi. For the cooler, I used the transmission cooler on the radiator. Simple and cheap.
The feel of the new box is good. I may try the 2 gpm valve at a later date. I think the fast ratio arms are a little much. For auto cross they would be great. I may change them out at some point, or I may just leave it .

The lesson leaned is that the Borgeson box needs to be matched to a pump that does not exceed 3 gpm, and 1200 psi. Even with that, it would be a good idea to add a cooler.



As far as cost:
Box $511
Coupler $21
Adapter $22

High pressure fitting $24
Return $2.50

Low flow valve $22
Oil $12
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/22/15 05:20 AM

Quote:

I am all done with the install. I drove the car tonight about 20 miles. The steering was good. After the drive, the power steering temp was 145 degrees. Before, it was over 200.
I used the flow control valve out of the original 70 something pump. I adjusted the pressure to 1200 psi. For the cooler, I used the transmission cooler on the radiator. Simple and cheap.
The feel of the new box is good. I may try the 2 gpm valve at a later date. I think the fast ratio arms are a little much. For auto cross they would be great. I may change them out at some point, or I may just leave it .

The lesson leaned is that the Borgeson box needs to be matched to a pump that does not exceed 3 gpm, and 1200 psi. Even with that, it would be a good idea to add a cooler.



As far as cost:
Box $511
Coupler $21
Adapter $22

High pressure fitting $24
Return $2.50

Low flow valve $22
Oil $12



So now that you have the pressure at the right place, how is the driving feel from this box compared to your used FF Stage III box?

How many miles were on your old box?
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/22/15 06:23 AM

The new box requires a lot less effort then the stage 3 box it replaced. In that respect, I liked the other box better. That's why I may try the 2gpm valve.
What I like is that the new box is a lot tighter. My old box had around 30 degrees of play at the center position. I tried adjusting the lash, but it did not improve at all. It just made it feel stiff. It drove me crazy, so that's why I replaced it.
In hind sight, I should not have had my original box rebuilt. I think it had 170k on it. I had a lower mileage box from a 72 Cuda that would have been a better choice.
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/23/15 01:57 AM

Good to hear all went well. We're selling a lot of the Borgeson Saginaw pumps and the feel is very good. Enjoy.
Posted By: dangina

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/25/15 01:53 AM

Quote:

I am all done with the install. I drove the car tonight about 20 miles. The steering was good. After the drive, the power steering temp was 145 degrees. Before, it was over 200.
I used the flow control valve out of the original 70 something pump. I adjusted the pressure to 1200 psi. For the cooler, I used the transmission cooler on the radiator. Simple and cheap.
The feel of the new box is good. I may try the 2 gpm valve at a later date. I think the fast ratio arms are a little much. For auto cross they would be great. I may change them out at some point, or I may just leave it .



curious do you have a pic of said flow control valve? did you put this on the high or low side of the pump? I bought a cooler for mine as well awhile back to avoid any problems.

out of curiosity how do you know what pressure your at? I can't remember but isn't the idea pressure suppose to be around 800 for our old boxes?

also I too have the fast ratio arms, what don't you like about them? how are they on the highway?!
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: New Borgeson Box install. - 01/25/15 06:13 AM

Here is a link: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...;gonew=1#UNREAD
RylisPro posted a few pictures of different flow control valves. The valve screws into the back of the pump. Then the high pressure line attaches to it. They are available in different sizes and fitting types.

I changed out the valve again on my car. I am now using the 2gpm valve. The steering feel is much better. I drove the car 80 miles today and the steering was great. My pulley ratio is 1.2, while the stock setup is 1.04. So, my pump is a little over driven.

The fast ratio arms are a lot more manageable with the smaller gpm valve. Still, it takes some getting use to. It is very easy to over steer when going into a turn, or when making a quick maneuver.
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