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B body and E body K member steering box mounting.

Posted By: Sxrxrnr

B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 03:23 AM

Am dealing with an steering box issue on our 70 Challenger.

My question is: Are or should all PS steering boxes be fully interchangeable and identical between E Body and B Body K members.

I am trying to figure out why a Borgeson box that has been installed on the Challenger cannot be brought into proper 'toe' alignment without the need for one tie rod end to be 9/16 inch longer than the opposite one and even then the steering box shaft must be clocked some 60 degrees off top center in order that pitman arm ball joint will drop into drag link hole when toe is correct.

I am suspecting any of the following in order of importance.

1. Steering box not clocked properly on K member, either because of out of spec K member,,,,which I doubt or out of spec mounting ears on steering box.

2. Pitman splines on steering box out of spec.

3. Pitman splines on pitman arm out of spec. Just Suspensions arm.

4. Pitman arm itself is not to spec on its angle/shape from steering box to drag link.

All was well with stock box modified to Firm Feel specs. Additionally steering shaft that once was a straight shot into coupler, now requires a sharp angle in order to be inserted into it.

Been dealing with this some 9 months. Car drives well with some caveats,,,steering box not on top center, can turn car over 2 full revolutions of steering wheel one direction, less than 1 3/4 turns other, and a tendency to experience bump steer,,,not a severe issue the way I normally drive

Currently gathering information hoping to find the cause and solution for what the car is experiencing.

Have considered shimming the box, grinding off guide spline in pitman and cold bending pitman. None particularly attractive options.

I posted this in another thread that deals with a multitude of steering box issues, but think that this particular issue kind of gets lost there, hence a new post

Attached picture 8307941-image.jpg
Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 03:34 AM

It seems that shimming the box would be the easiest, and the first thing to try. Maybe use the tapered washers made for I beam flanges? If it works well you could modify the steering box mount down the road.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 03:57 AM

More than likely its another out of square Borgeson steering box.
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 05:37 PM

I believe the stock box mounting tabs are in the same plane but at different heights. Do the Borgeson tabs match the plane and depth of the stock tabs?

Looking at your angle, I can see where that offset multiplied at the end of the pitman/idler could require an offset of 9/16 on the tie rod

Shimming is not a bad situation and can even be required in stock box mounts to get the center link position set properly. Shims are occasionally required with spring hangers to adjust thrust, and some car makes require them for setting alignment. I'd shim before I'd start cutting or bending anything.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 06:58 PM

Sxrxrnr,

Could you look on the front center of your K-member and record the stampings numbers found there.

That will give the part number for that K-member. And number of the round coin if welded to the K-member?

Not all B and E body K-members are completely 110% identical. They will interchange, but there will be some differences in the steering box pad.

For instance:

Attached picture 8308429-IMG-20140811-02799.jpg
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 07:05 PM

Quote:

Am dealing with an steering box issue on our 70 Challenger.

My question is: Are or should all PS steering boxes be fully interchangeable and identical between E Body and B Body K members.

I am trying to figure out why a Borgeson box that has been installed on the Challenger cannot be brought into proper 'toe' alignment without the need for one tie rod end to be 9/16 inch longer than the opposite one and even then the steering box shaft must be clocked some 60 degrees off top center in order that pitman arm ball joint will drop into drag link hole when toe is correct.

I am suspecting any of the following in order of importance.

1. Steering box not clocked properly on K member, either because of out of spec K member,,,,which I doubt or out of spec mounting ears on steering box.

2. Pitman splines on steering box out of spec.

3. Pitman splines on pitman arm out of spec. Just Suspensions arm.

4. Pitman arm itself is not to spec on its angle/shape from steering box to drag link.

All was well with stock box modified to Firm Feel specs. Additionally steering shaft that once was a straight shot into coupler, now requires a sharp angle in order to be inserted into it.

Been dealing with this some 9 months. Car drives well with some caveats,,,steering box not on top center, can turn car over 2 full revolutions of steering wheel one direction, less than 1 3/4 turns other, and a tendency to experience bump steer,,,not a severe issue the way I normally drive

Currently gathering information hoping to find the cause and solution for what the car is experiencing.

Have considered shimming the box, grinding off guide spline in pitman and cold bending pitman. None particularly attractive options.

I posted this in another thread that deals with a multitude of steering box issues, but think that this particular issue kind of gets lost there, hence a new post



Do you have a stock ratio pitman or the longer Fast Ratio pitman on it?

Do you have your old pitman to compare the Just Suspension pitman to? Can you borrow a used pitman from someone else to compare to?
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 08:08 PM

This isn't a big mystery, we solved it a few months back. The boxes are tweaked. If you swapped in a factory box for reference, you'd find everything lines up perfectly and all is right in the world. We had to shim the drivers-side mounting tab with 2 williams washers to get it right. On that note as well, the owner of the car called us after a few hundred miles of driving and the pitman arm nut had completely backed off and fell off the car. He purchased and new nut, re-torqued it to the required torque and staked it to ensure the nut wouldn't fall off. Well wouldn't you know it, the nut has backed off/gotten loose 2 more times as the pitman arm has worked itself in and loose then traveled UP the shaft on the box. Every time he tightens it, the pitman arm seats higher and he gets more thread engagement.
Good Stuff.
Posted By: Sneke_Eyez

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 09:01 PM

Quote:

This isn't a big mystery, we solved it a few months back. The boxes are tweaked. If you swapped in a factory box for reference, you'd find everything lines up perfectly and all is right in the world. We had to shim the drivers-side mounting tab with 2 williams washers to get it right. On that note as well, the owner of the car called us after a few hundred miles of driving and the pitman arm nut had completely backed off and fell off the car. He purchased and new nut, re-torqued it to the required torque and staked it to ensure the nut wouldn't fall off. Well wouldn't you know it, the nut has backed off/gotten loose 2 more times as the pitman arm has worked itself in and loose then traveled UP the shaft on the box. Every time he tightens it, the pitman arm seats higher and he gets more thread engagement.
Good Stuff.




Wow, that is not confidence inspiring at all.
Guess I am firmly sold on a Firm Feel now.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 09:08 PM

Quote:

This isn't a big mystery, we solved it a few months back. The boxes are tweaked. If you swapped in a factory box for reference, you'd find everything lines up perfectly and all is right in the world. We had to shim the drivers-side mounting tab with 2 williams washers to get it right. On that note as well, the owner of the car called us after a few hundred miles of driving and the pitman arm nut had completely backed off and fell off the car. He purchased and new nut, re-torqued it to the required torque and staked it to ensure the nut wouldn't fall off. Well wouldn't you know it, the nut has backed off/gotten loose 2 more times as the pitman arm has worked itself in and loose then traveled UP the shaft on the box. Every time he tightens it, the pitman arm seats higher and he gets more thread engagement.
Good Stuff.


is he running another aftermarket pitman arm? Just curious, seems the thread engagement issues coincided with aftermarket arms IIRC.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 09:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This isn't a big mystery, we solved it a few months back. The boxes are tweaked. If you swapped in a factory box for reference, you'd find everything lines up perfectly and all is right in the world. We had to shim the drivers-side mounting tab with 2 williams washers to get it right. On that note as well, the owner of the car called us after a few hundred miles of driving and the pitman arm nut had completely backed off and fell off the car. He purchased and new nut, re-torqued it to the required torque and staked it to ensure the nut wouldn't fall off. Well wouldn't you know it, the nut has backed off/gotten loose 2 more times as the pitman arm has worked itself in and loose then traveled UP the shaft on the box. Every time he tightens it, the pitman arm seats higher and he gets more thread engagement.
Good Stuff.


is he running another aftermarket pitman arm? Just curious, seems the thread engagement issues coincided with aftermarket arms IIRC.



Well they are all aftermarket. You mean certain brands?
Posted By: dangina

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 09:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This isn't a big mystery, we solved it a few months back. The boxes are tweaked. If you swapped in a factory box for reference, you'd find everything lines up perfectly and all is right in the world. We had to shim the drivers-side mounting tab with 2 williams washers to get it right. On that note as well, the owner of the car called us after a few hundred miles of driving and the pitman arm nut had completely backed off and fell off the car. He purchased and new nut, re-torqued it to the required torque and staked it to ensure the nut wouldn't fall off. Well wouldn't you know it, the nut has backed off/gotten loose 2 more times as the pitman arm has worked itself in and loose then traveled UP the shaft on the box. Every time he tightens it, the pitman arm seats higher and he gets more thread engagement.
Good Stuff.


is he running another aftermarket pitman arm? Just curious, seems the thread engagement issues coincided with aftermarket arms IIRC.



I've put on the stock arm and moog arm, same problem
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 09:37 PM

Yes we did cover that, the arm loosening is a huge issue. It the arm or the shaft causing it ?
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 09:44 PM

Sorry typed incorrectly earlier; the shims went on the passenger side tab (2 bolts). I haven't had a chance to investigate the car, as the owner lives about 200 miles from the shop. He posts here regularly; I'll shoot him a line.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 10:23 PM

Quote:

Yes we did cover that, the arm loosening is a huge issue. It the arm or the shaft causing it ?



There is a relationship between the nut loosening, threads exposed passed nut, and height of the pitman end. I think the postion and/or profile taper of the splines is not right.

That's a different issue than the rotatioinal position of the splines that is the primary concern of the orignal poster; Sxnr though.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/22/14 11:03 PM

Seems all the small shaft boxes have good spline and thread engagement but the large spline have most all had issues. Could it be that the large spline have a different amount of taper from the factory and Borgeson is not compensating or aware of this? Just grabbing at straws here.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/23/14 04:00 AM

Had a tough day today. I had removed original Borgeson a couple of days ago,,,after removing battery, it's tray, MSD box etc. and as with a Chinese puzzle managed to wiggle it out. Had been installed while K member was out of car.

Noted when removing mounting bolts that the came out very hard, as though cross threaded. Sure enough when I went to check out the original 12 point bolts, even without box in the way, they would go in very hard. Knew this was bad, spent a couple hours doing thread chasing and buying some grade 8 6 point bolts. Finally got this all sorted out and mounted box and pitman arm.

No difference, flat spot on input shaft still at 11 o'clock, never moved tie rod ends(remember left side 1/2 inch longer than right). Front wheels had not been moved.

So did some shim checking,,,,,looks as though will require 5/16 shims on engine side 2 bolts,,,,this will bring box to top center with flat spot at 9 o'clock.

Tie rod ends I will worry about later. I am exhausted and frustrated. These boxes are definitely clock wrong on their mounting ears.

More tomorrow after I get some shims,,,just have box pried out on engine side with pry bars.

Watching series now and having a bite to eat.

Thanks everyone for tips and moral support.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/23/14 08:11 AM

Will check out your questions tomorrow. Do not have another pitman to compare,,,however given odd angle of steering shaft into coupler( I have seen photos posted by other members of this same phenomenon), I tend to agree that this is a box that has not been designed to or built to spec and is likely not a pitman issue.

Pitman on car is not fast ratio.

I have looked without success for a standard ratio pitman without 'Judas Spline' or master spline as commonly called. Does anyone know of one.

Shims will likely give me enough to center box top center, less likely to be able to shim enough to equalize tie rod ends to same length(s) without compromising integrity. Will see how it goes however.

Can anyone explain what so called 'bump steer' impact that non equal length tie rod ends might cause me if I were not to expend effort to bring them to same length. Also would this cause different turning radius's left or right, or is this purely a function of an off top center steering box. Steering geometry has always been a bit of mystery.

Anyone ever regret that they never left well enough alone? The FF was a pretty darn good box!
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/23/14 08:56 AM

Quote:

...

I have looked without success for a standard ratio pitman without 'Judas Spline' or master spline as commonly called. Does anyone know of one.



Someone PM'd me about that in your situation. And there are only 36 splines. Then you do the math.

So he said:

"...You mentioned eliminating the master spline so the pitman can be clocked where you need it…. Well there are 36 splines so each step is 10 degrees so assuming the pitman arm is 8” each tooth moves the outboard end 1.4” that’s a pretty big adjustment… "

Quote:


Can anyone explain what so called 'bump steer' impact that non equal length tie rod ends might cause me if I were not to expend effort to bring them to same length. Also would this cause different turning radius's left or right, or is this purely a function of an off top center steering box. Steering geometry has always been a bit of mystery.



You mentioned on the other thread it was about 1/2" off center. Yes that will change some bumpsteer. I really don't think it will be enough to notice. When the factory installed "T/A fast ratio steering" with the longer pitman arm only, that also changed bumpsteer. Have you heard anyone complain about those cars having bumpsteer?

Moving the inner tie rod point up and down has a much great effect on bumpsteer than moving the point left and right.

For as far as you got into this adding some shims to help certainly isn't a ton of effort since everything taken apart and tools are ready.


Your factory setup does not have perfect bumpsteer. Even when you adjust for bumpsteer with an accurate dial indicator bumpsteer gauge, you usually never get a 0.000" toe steer change. And many time when you improve compression or extension, the other condition changes for the worse.

This is a bumpsteer check on my Barracuda with a Longacre bumpsteer gauge:

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/23/14 09:26 AM

Quote:

Had a tough day today. I had removed original Borgeson a couple of days ago,,,after removing battery, it's tray, MSD box etc. and as with a Chinese puzzle managed to wiggle it out. Had been installed while K member was out of car.

Noted when removing mounting bolts that the came out very hard, as though cross threaded. Sure enough when I went to check out the original 12 point bolts, even without box in the way, they would go in very hard. Knew this was bad, spent a couple hours doing thread chasing and buying some grade 8 6 point bolts. Finally got this all sorted out and mounted box and pitman arm.

No difference, flat spot on input shaft still at 11 o'clock, never moved tie rod ends(remember left side 1/2 inch longer than right). Front wheels had not been moved.

So did some shim checking,,,,,looks as though will require 5/16 shims on engine side 2 bolts,,,,this will bring box to top center with flat spot at 9 o'clock.

Tie rod ends I will worry about later. I am exhausted and frustrated. These boxes are definitely clock wrong on their mounting ears.

More tomorrow after I get some shims,,,just have box pried out on engine side with pry bars.

Watching series now and having a bite to eat.

Thanks everyone for tips and moral support.

the flat spot on input shaft is not at 9 o'clock when pitman is centered and steering wheel is centered on my car either. It is at 11ish. I asked Peter about this back when I installed mine and he said just center steering wheel where I want it and lock it down.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/23/14 10:39 AM

Among other things, I was told this too. I knew it was wrong then as did my alignment tech. If the flat spot on input shaft is not at 9 o'clock, in my opinion your box is off top center when straight ahead.

How is your toe?

Does your shaft have a straight shot into coupler, or does it hit at the classic odd angle that seems common to these boxes? If so that is likely a clue that all is not right.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/23/14 11:28 AM

My coupler is off only a smidge. My alignment guy paralleled the pitman and idler then aligned the car. I later popped off the coupler and centered the wheel to my liking. The box is on center but the flat is still at 11. This to me is a matter of how the adapter is welded.
Posted By: dangina

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/24/14 01:58 AM

Quote:

Seems all the small shaft boxes have good spline and thread engagement but the large spline have most all had issues. Could it be that the large spline have a different amount of taper from the factory and Borgeson is not compensating or aware of this? Just grabbing at straws here.



there is a long post on this on here we started awhile back. This issues is not just limited to the bigger splines. Borgeson does not think this is a problem.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/25/14 09:05 AM

Just wrapped up installation of replacement box today. Had exactly same outcome as original box,,,steering box 30 degrees off top center,,,rough estimate, steering shaft require extreme angle to insert into coupler, left tie rod 1/2 inch longer than right side and differing number of steering wheel turns for full full right turns verses full left turns which means differing radius's.

Shimmed box with quarter inch thick by 1 inch wide by some 3 inch long steel stock with 2 notches cut in to fit around 1/2 inch mounting bolts. Loosen 3 bolts slide shim in and tighten to 95 pounds.

Steering box now at top center and full left and full right turn radius's are same and steering shaft now goes straight into coupler as per Mopar spec. Tie rods still differing lengths, perhaps another 1/8 inch of shim will correct,,,may have enough thread to correct while maintaining toe,,,will check this out.

In my estimate, these boxes are jigged incorrectly. This has cost me considerable money, time, labor and frustration which would have been minimized with candor from certain folks when I first sought assistance and advice some 8 or 9 months ago when this anxiety ridden journey first began.

This swap of boxes is a very labor intensive task, particularly if you are running TTI headers and likely other models too.

Incidentally as per Peter Bergman, the box is not at top center unless the flat spot on your input shaft is pointed outward from engine at exactly 9 o'clock, same as for Bergman coupler set screw. 11 o'clock is incorrect.

With him on this I am total agreement. To this I might add, if your steering shaft is not going straight with no angle, you might want to determine why not.
Posted By: brads70

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/25/14 02:00 PM

Wow sorry to hear of all your issues with this. Thanks for posting so others can make informed decisions .
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/26/14 08:43 PM

Have had box installed and back on the road for a couple of days now. Box running on top center, tie rod off slightly with one side 1/2 inch longer than other,,,quarter inch subtracted from longer one will take care of this, but likely no impact on handling so why worry. Will have alignment checked again, just because.

Steering now feels like a new car compared to before and goes down the road and turns much better than before correction of box mounting. So far could not be more pleased with on center feel of steering.

I would suggest that those who market this box include some shimming mechanism with them when shipping,,,,or at the very least inform the end user of the possibility that they could be required for a successful and correct installation. Would have certainly saved me much aggravation if this had been done.

Not once in many calls and emails seeking tech support did anyone suggest that a simple shim might be required to resolve the experienced issues. It was only on this forum and some of its(been there done that members) that I was informed of this option, both in this thread and another one where these issues were discussed. Does make one wonder however why this suggestion was never forthcoming from the vendor,,,however i suspect that certain members have opinions.

As far as I can determine, I am the first to explicitly to complain of the steering box being off center and the problems with tie rod ends and the setting of proper toe. However am certain that those who did shimming were aware of this,,that's why they shimmed. I suggest that others who may be unaware check out their own installation.

There are 2 simple clues as to potential problem:

1. Does your steering shaft goe straight into the box coupler or U joint, or does it make an angle,,which is incorrect.

2. Does the flat spot on input shaft to box point directly at 9 O'clock, not at 11 or so. The flat spot should be at 9, if not you are likely not on top center. Bergman coupler set screw should also be at 9 if you are using their coupler and not Borgeson U-joint solution.

Given all this, once the box is successfully installed, it appears to be a worthy product to improve the driving experience of these 40 year plus incredible automobiles.

Thanks again to all who chimed in with suggestions and ideas.
Posted By: 70moparmike

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/29/14 01:14 PM

i have the box and have not mounted it yet. do you have pics of the shims you made and how the were attached so that i may mock it up out of the car? i also have tti headersand do not wish to fight it all with fresh paint and the headaches that you have endured. thanks for posting this thread, very informative.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/30/14 01:49 AM

Quote:

i have the box and have not mounted it yet. do you have pics of the shims you made and how the were attached so that i may mock it up out of the car? i also have tti headersand do not wish to fight it all with fresh paint and the headaches that you have endured. thanks for posting this thread, very informative.



Considered several shim methods. As I had once used a piece of steel stock to remove an oil pan problem thought would work well for this,,(can be obtained any hardware retailer) in lengths of 3 ft or so for less than 10 bucks.

Piece I purchased was about 1 inch wide by 1/4 inch thick.

Take a look at the 2 bolt hole mounting flange on your Borgeson.

Cut off a piece of steel stock that measures the length of it,,,3 or 4 inches.

Hold this cut of piece along outer edge of the mounting surface of flange. From opposite side of flange, mark thru mounting holes the steel stock piece with marking pen.

Using drill press and 17/32 or there about drill, drill the holes.

Using hack saw or cut off tool, cut from edge so that holes on short side extend to the edge.

Smooth out all edges.

On my 440 engine with 2 inch TTI's, could only remove and replace box from above after removing battery box etc. Tight but made it after a bit of gymnastics

Warning. I was removing an already installed Borgeson to replace it. Had removed stock box FF with K member out of car.

Squirm Borgeson in place, start all 3 bolts carefully. Easy to cross thread. Someone had done this on my car,,,I know who,,was not I.

From beneath car, slide shim into place on 2 bolt side and tighten up bolts. Not too tightly yet.

Install Bergman coupler and attach steering shaft.

Inside car raise column and fasten into place using the 2 studs on dash. Go back under hood and take a look at shaft. Is it going straight into coupler . If so, all is likely ok.

If at an angle, either you do not need shim or perhaps need more than 1/4 inch. If shim not required, remove it. If all is well, torque bolts to about 100 pounds.

Turn steering wheel full left OR full right. Go opposite direction to full lock,,about 3 3/4 turns. Divide by 2, take wheel there. Flat spot on shaft should be at exactly 9 o'clock pointed at chassis.

Your steering wheel may be 180 degree off,,reverse it on "shoe" side of coupler. Set screw on coupler should be at 9 directly over flat spot.

Complete installation and check alignment. If toe in was spot on before, pitman should almost fall into drag link.

Got you pm, will take photos of plug wires. I used Bergaman coupler and metric hose adapter. Used my own hoses.

Sorry on 6 point bolts, as noted mine were a bit buggered. Suspect someone had used an impact wrench on them at one time. I've ordered up new replacement 12 points,,,they are in the mail on the way. I recommend thread chasing K member bolt holes if any suspicion,,,like bolts coming out hard on removal.

Attached picture 8315605-image.jpg
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/30/14 03:53 AM

I used a Williams Washer instead of a piece of flat stock. A bit quicker, looks super clean.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/30/14 05:34 AM

Quote:

i have the box and have not mounted it yet. do you have pics of the shims you made and how the were attached so that i may mock it up out of the car? i also have tti headersand do not wish to fight it all with fresh paint and the headaches that you have endured. thanks for posting this thread, very informative.

t

Save your paint when installing with K member in the car.

Wrestling box In and out can do a lot of damage.

Take masking tape and mask off all vulnerable areas. Then use duct tape on top of this. Offers superior protection and will not damage paint while being easily removed when done.
Posted By: 70moparmike

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/30/14 08:08 PM

thanks for the reply. plan on mocking up while out of the car and measuring old box to a reference point then install borg box and see where i am.. what is a williams washer?? thanks again
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting. - 10/30/14 09:26 PM

Quote:

thanks for the reply. plan on mocking up while out of the car and measuring old box to a reference point then install borg box and see where i am.. what is a williams washer?? thanks again



As Hotchkis noted, a easier/faster shim. His posts(and from other forum members) on shimming requirement finally got me off on the right track to resolve issue(s) that I had experienced.

williams washer

http://www.fastenal.com/catalog_pages/2009/3-122.pdf

The method I chose permits you to install or swap shim with no need to remove bolt(s) but does require a certain amount of machining/labor to create. Removing bolts and re-inserting can be a pain while box is installed. Name your poison.
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