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Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger...

Posted By: Pale_Roader

Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/09/14 12:16 PM


Years and years ago, in Hotrod magazine there was a 'speed' theme one month. They had a surprisingly stock-ish 68 Charger.... all black and mean as hell looking. Think it was on the cover? That one also had an article on Big Red (69 Camaro), and the Silver State Classic race.

I cant seem to find my copy anywhere, and it was probably the most read Hotrod i ever bought.

I do remember that car supposedly went 190mph, with an iron 440 that made 'only' 505HP. 4-speed and 8 3/4" with 2.76 gears. It had a few very subtle aero mods, nothing at all outlandish or funny looking, and it ran stock car 15"s with slicks.

Does this sound right? Gonna ask the racers here finally. An all-iron 440 (ported heads, Team G intake, compression, etc.) and 505HP running close to 200 in a brick like that? Sure... they had the grille blocked off, but still... It wasn't super low either. 190mph with 2.76 gears and 28" tires?


Building my super-welfare/Mad-Max cheap Challenger out here, i haven't been able to stop wondering about this car, and what they did on so little (technologically speaking... LOTS ov stock OEM design in that car). Anyone here actually know that car? or the guys that built it?
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/09/14 12:22 PM

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/45098_1968_dodge_charger/
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/09/14 01:46 PM


Yup... thats the one. Jesus... 18 years ago...??? When did i get old?

So what do the tech experts in here think about the tricks, and not-so-tricks on this 190mph car?
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/09/14 07:02 PM

Very cool car, seems the guys dropped off the radar after this article. I wonder what ever happened to them and the Road Runner?
Posted By: brads70

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/09/14 09:08 PM

Cool more gonads that I would have. I like acceleration but speed... not so much. Hats off to him in an old Mopar!
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/09/14 09:43 PM

Well, it does prove that the stock mopar stuff is pretty robust when dialed in together. The Green Brick was similarly not trick when it was running in the early-mid 90s. 20 years ago this is a pretty top shelf set up. Looking at the photos, those SS springs have been significantly de-arched to flatten them out like that.
Posted By: brads70

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/10/14 03:13 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN_c39k8jUk

Randy 1wildRT Sent me this and asked me to post it. Cool stuff!
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/10/14 02:27 PM

Quote:

Well, it does prove that the stock mopar stuff is pretty robust when dialed in together. The Green Brick was similarly not trick when it was running in the early-mid 90s. 20 years ago this is a pretty top shelf set up. Looking at the photos, those SS springs have been significantly de-arched to flatten them out like that.



Last i read the Green Brick was running just over 160 though... another 30, or 'just' another 20mph maintained... however... is just downright sick. I too was a huge fan ov the Brick, especially before it started getting all the crazy big-buck stuff. This is also quite the endorsement ov factory Mopar engine design... to flog a 30 year old all-iron 440 like that for almost 100 miles...

Guess i'm just loving these cars that did this on stuff that half the guys here 'wouldn't drive to the store on'. You guys have to admit.. you dont have to look far here to find posts about 'dangerous' 40 year old factory engine parts or suspension pieces...

Anyways, gives a poor guy some hope for building a decent car with none ov this modern fancy equipment.
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/10/14 02:28 PM

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN_c39k8jUk

Randy 1wildRT Sent me this and asked me to post it. Cool stuff!



Oh man... this is better than Vanishing Point!

I want the full race in-car tape. I want it now.
Posted By: feets

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/10/14 02:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN_c39k8jUk

Randy 1wildRT Sent me this and asked me to post it. Cool stuff!



Oh man... this is better than Vanishing Point!

I want the full race in-car tape. I want it now.




It would cost you the use of the letter v.
Posted By: Consulier

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/10/14 04:53 PM

Quote:

I too was a huge fan of the Brick, especially before it started getting all the crazy big-buck stuff.


I must have slept through the "crazy big-buck stuff" phase of the Brick. Looking at it in the shop, I still fail to see anything crazy or big-buck.
Posted By: AlexP

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/10/14 05:01 PM

I love listening to that Chargers engine wind out through first gear.
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/10/14 05:04 PM

Well, the video does show he was running in the 160 class, which means he was not sustaining 190 mph speeds over extremely long times, but hitting them at peaks.

However, with that, even the Nascar boys in '68 were running 170+ in stock bodied Chargers. Add a few aero pieces like on this Charger, and 190 shots aren't out of the question.
Posted By: AlexP

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/10/14 06:44 PM

Wades duster gained 8 mph just by blocking off the grill at the Texas Mile. And the gearing wasn't near as numerically low as that car. Wade went 150ish
Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/10/14 08:30 PM

Quote:

Wades duster gained 8 mph just by blocking off the grill at the Texas Mile. And the gearing wasn't near as numerically low as that car. Wade went 150ish



I also didn't shift into overdrive on the +8 mph run.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/10/14 09:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Wades duster gained 8 mph just by blocking off the grill at the Texas Mile. And the gearing wasn't near as numerically low as that car. Wade went 150ish



I also didn't shift into overdrive on the +8 mph run.

that was a pretty expensive +8 IIRC lol....
Posted By: savoy64

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/10/14 10:37 PM

the last 3 miles of the run is downhill into town---that is where they radar and record the top speed...
Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/10/14 11:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Wades duster gained 8 mph just by blocking off the grill at the Texas Mile. And the gearing wasn't near as numerically low as that car. Wade went 150ish



I also didn't shift into overdrive on the +8 mph run.

that was a pretty expensive +8 IIRC lol....





Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/11/14 10:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN_c39k8jUk

Randy 1wildRT Sent me this and asked me to post it. Cool stuff!



Oh man... this is better than Vanishing Point!

I want the full race in-car tape. I want it now.




It would cost you the use of the letter v.



Lets see the product first!

Moot anyways... you think the 'v' is bad? You'd hate the alternative...
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/11/14 11:12 AM

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I too was a huge fan of the Brick, especially before it started getting all the crazy big-buck stuff.


I must have slept through the "crazy big-buck stuff" phase of the Brick. Looking at it in the shop, I still fail to see anything crazy or big-buck.



I'm not calling it Big Red or some Steilow creation by any means... but to me at least, it was more fun to read when it was still 'junkyard' parts... When Barton got involved it left the realm ov reality for me, and i'd imagine many other 'cheap A-body guys' (haha) and Mopar guys. I dont remember much ov it now... its been years... but i remember super fancy exhaust (bought), pretty sure they had a big buck non-factory OD tranny in there too, EFI... Most ov that car now is pretty damn far from the junkyard...

What i liked best about it was the owner. Ehrenburg was just a crafty guy... always thinking... the consummate street-racer. But then when it started getting popular and needing more to win they just started throwing money at it and it lost something.

Still one ov my favorite cars ever... but when it was a crate 360, A833, ancient Mag case 8 3/4" (think its a new alum one now?), ALL factory design suspension and braked, Supercoupe rimmed world-beater it was just that much more... uh... profane...
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/11/14 11:14 AM

Quote:

Well, the video does show he was running in the 160 class, which means he was not sustaining 190 mph speeds over extremely long times, but hitting them at peaks.

However, with that, even the Nascar boys in '68 were running 170+ in stock bodied Chargers. Add a few aero pieces like on this Charger, and 190 shots aren't out of the question.



Curious... you think a 70 Challenger would fare better at those insane speeds than a 68 Charger? All else being equal (even weight)? Its definitely a more slippery design...
Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/11/14 02:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Well, the video does show he was running in the 160 class, which means he was not sustaining 190 mph speeds over extremely long times, but hitting them at peaks.

However, with that, even the Nascar boys in '68 were running 170+ in stock bodied Chargers. Add a few aero pieces like on this Charger, and 190 shots aren't out of the question.



Curious... you think a 70 Challenger would fare better at those insane speeds than a 68 Charger? All else being equal (even weight)? Its definitely a more slippery design...



Only thing that matters at that speed is aero. Neither are good. If you made similar aero mods you would be close.

Keep in mind drag matters, but really stability is arguably more important at those speeds. Particularly lift, front and rear.
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/11/14 06:13 PM

Quote:


Curious... you think a 70 Challenger would fare better at those insane speeds than a 68 Charger? All else being equal (even weight)? Its definitely a more slippery design...



stock for stock, hard to say. Both have crappy recessed grills. The Charger also has the recessed back light, but does have extra wheelbase, which is a factor in stability.

I'm sure you can reasonably easily dig up aero numbers on the classic Chargers since they evolved into the 500s and then the Daytonas. Classic Challengers are a bit harder to come by, but since they have the SCCA history, I'm sure there are figures out there for them as well.

As shown here, it only takes a few mods to give them some capability for high speed. With creative application of those mods,they could be made streetable without being too ugly. Yeah, that big slab of a nose cover helped the aero, but it is butt ugly, IMO. A flush mount grill with close knit mesh for the grill opening would look better and still provide a significant aero gain.
Posted By: Rapom65

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/11/14 06:24 PM

Took the guy 7 years to build the car and fulfill his dream... gives me hope for my Duster!
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/11/14 06:32 PM

I've attended that race several times and have navigated for a driver. Let me tell you, that is a scary course at high speeds, especially on a crowned two lane blacktop in the hilly areas doted with roadside trees. It is NOT an easy course! For a guy to show up in a new car, for the first time on the course, and with no navigator in the 160 class, then to win it within 2 seconds of the goal time? That is phenomenal!
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/12/14 08:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Curious... you think a 70 Challenger would fare better at those insane speeds than a 68 Charger? All else being equal (even weight)? Its definitely a more slippery design...



stock for stock, hard to say. Both have crappy recessed grills. The Charger also has the recessed back light, but does have extra wheelbase, which is a factor in stability.




Quote:

I'm sure you can reasonably easily dig up aero numbers on the classic Chargers since they evolved into the 500s and then the Daytonas. Classic Challengers are a bit harder to come by, but since they have the SCCA history, I'm sure there are figures out there for them as well.

As shown here, it only takes a few mods to give them some capability for high speed. With creative application of those mods,they could be made streetable without being too ugly. Yeah, that big slab of a nose cover helped the aero, but it is butt ugly, IMO. A flush mount grill with close knit mesh for the grill opening would look better and still provide a significant aero gain.



The grille would obviously get blocked. But i'd just put something simple and non-stock looking up there. ANY attempts at trying to gain aero there and even remotely look stock would be an abject failure, and would certainly look worse than a plain plate. Thats a drastic mod on a sexy car... i guarantee you it'd look awful.

I also wonder what the top speed difference would be with that mod and without on these particularly bad cars (Challenger, Charger). If it was worth 15+mph i think it'd be worth it, if it was more like 8, i think i'd leave it open personally. Looks count for something in my build.
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/12/14 08:14 AM

Quote:

I've attended that race several times and have navigated for a driver.



It takes balls to run that kind ov speed for sure, but it'd take more balls to be the navigator... I couldn't do it. I'm pretty comfy at illegal speed on highways... but to have to sit there with NO control... Heh... i couldn't do it. I dont even like 70-80mph from the passenger seat...


Quote:

Let me tell you, that is a scary course at high speeds, especially on a crowned two lane blacktop in the hilly areas doted with roadside trees. It is NOT an easy course! For a guy to show up in a new car, for the first time on the course, and with no navigator in the 160 class, then to win it within 2 seconds of the goal time? That is phenomenal!



There is nothing not phenomenal about that entire effort. Thats why it stuck in my head all these years...
Posted By: brads70

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/12/14 02:47 PM

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I've attended that race several times and have navigated for a driver.



It takes balls to run that kind ov speed for sure, but it'd take more balls to be the navigator... I couldn't do it. I'm pretty comfy at illegal speed on highways... but to have to sit there with NO control... Heh... i couldn't do it. I dont even like 70-80mph from the passenger seat...


Quote:

Let me tell you, that is a scary course at high speeds, especially on a crowned two lane blacktop in the hilly areas doted with roadside trees. It is NOT an easy course! For a guy to show up in a new car, for the first time on the course, and with no navigator in the 160 class, then to win it within 2 seconds of the goal time? That is phenomenal!



There is nothing not phenomenal about that entire effort. Thats why it stuck in my head all these years...



I couldn't be a navigator either!
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/12/14 05:52 PM

Quote:

The grille would obviously get blocked. But i'd just put something simple and non-stock looking up there. ANY attempts at trying to gain aero there and even remotely look stock would be an abject failure, and would certainly look worse than a plain plate. Thats a drastic mod on a sexy car... i guarantee you it'd look awful.

I also wonder what the top speed difference would be with that mod and without on these particularly bad cars (Challenger, Charger). If it was worth 15+mph i think it'd be worth it, if it was more like 8, i think i'd leave it open personally. Looks count for something in my build.



I dunno, it really depends on how you approach this on what the results will look like. The 72-74 Challenger grills are a step up in aero because they are not recessed. If you created something that looked more like a '72 Charger that was more forward with a more closed layout, then backed up the ribs with mesh, you can have a grill that looks OEM that has improved aero.
That's were digging on aero info may give you an idea. I'm sure there is detailed info on what the changes from standard Charger to 500 were for the grill change. Challenger is similar in size and layout and may be similar in potential gains.

Even the Nascar boys got big gains from closed mesh screens mounted flush. They allow just enough airflow though them to avoid overheating, but push the majority of the air around them.

Attached picture 8298089-72pettycharger.jpg
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/12/14 05:58 PM

A stock Charger equivilent and a modified 74 Challenger. Combine this with disappearing headlights and you have one unique look.




Attached picture 8298093-72charger.jpg
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/13/14 12:32 PM

We'll never agree on this, and thats fine. I'll take the mph hit, unless its ridiculous. As Enzo Ferrari might suggest... maybe i'll just have to learn how to build a better engine...

The 72-4 Challengers were a lot better, and even subtle mods on them look decent (i like Tom's car), but the 70-71's grilles are way back in the clip, and they look damn good. Hell, they sell the car. Aside from converting it to a 72 and modifying that, stock aint gonna happen.

The 71-2 Chargers were also a lot better, and i've even seen the existing grille on one brought forward almost enough to be flush (maybe an inch? I forget... i was going to do this when i still had my 72). That could look good if it was done just right. Personally... the grille treatment was the ONLY thing i dont like about the 69 Charger 500... which is my favorite B-body. I dont think it looks good at all... no matter how stock it looks.
Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/13/14 08:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

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I too was a huge fan of the Brick, especially before it started getting all the crazy big-buck stuff.


I must have slept through the "crazy big-buck stuff" phase of the Brick. Looking at it in the shop, I still fail to see anything crazy or big-buck.





What i liked best about it was the owner. Ehrenburg was just a crafty guy... always thinking... the consummate street-racer. But then when it started getting popular and needing more to win they just started throwing money at it and it lost something.

i]




So you wanted them to stop refining the car and run at the back every race?
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/13/14 09:48 PM

I've re-uploaded the Charger videoclip and enhanced the lousy soundquality a bit and removed most of the annoying high pitch tone in the clip;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyfqPuBJ90U


Posted By: brads70

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/14/14 12:07 AM

That spoiler helps a ton I'll bet. I noticed a difference just at hwy speeds when I installed mine. It felt more stable, not as "floaty"


Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/14/14 01:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:

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I too was a huge fan of the Brick, especially before it started getting all the crazy big-buck stuff.


I must have slept through the "crazy big-buck stuff" phase of the Brick. Looking at it in the shop, I still fail to see anything crazy or big-buck.





What i liked best about it was the owner. Ehrenburg was just a crafty guy... always thinking... the consummate street-racer. But then when it started getting popular and needing more to win they just started throwing money at it and it lost something.

i]




So you wanted them to stop refining the car and run at the back every race?



Obviously they had to keep gaining somehow... but when the checkbook came out it faded from the realm ov the everyman to just another cool project car many ov us could never replicate. For me anyways. Still one ov my favorites.
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/14/14 01:15 AM

Quote:

That spoiler helps a ton I'll bet. I noticed a difference just at hwy speeds when I installed mine. It felt more stable, not as "floaty"






I bet. My Challengers and my 72 Charger never quite felt 'solid' at any speed over legal ones. The Charger was particularly bad over 100. Cool thing is, the front dam is one place where you can get fairly drastic and still not lose the stock feel/look ov the car. That spoiler looks good.

And are those bulged fenders i see on that T/A...??? Tricky tricky...
Posted By: AlexP

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/14/14 04:01 AM

Quote:

That spoiler helps a ton I'll bet. I noticed a difference just at hwy speeds when I installed mine. It felt more stable, not as "floaty"


[/quote

Are those Team III wheels or V48?
Posted By: brads70

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/14/14 02:02 PM

Quote:


Are those Team III wheels or V48?



Team III http://www.etwheels.com/lt_iii.html
Posted By: feets

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/14/14 03:58 PM

IS there anything that can be done to help integrate that chin spoiler with the front of the Challenger?

I'm sure it's effective but it looks horribly tacky as it if was on sale at Pep Boys. It just doesn't "fit" the car. Perhaps if it rolled up the sides of the fenders it would look like a bit more thought went into it.
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/15/14 09:18 AM

Quote:

IS there anything that can be done to help integrate that chin spoiler with the front of the Challenger?

I'm sure it's effective but it looks horribly tacky as it if was on sale at Pep Boys. It just doesn't "fit" the car. Perhaps if it rolled up the sides of the fenders it would look like a bit more thought went into it.



I'm building a T/A, and was just going to fab something out ov aluminum, attach it to the frame somehow, and round the edges to make it more stock looking, maybe actually run the braces through the valence so as not to have to attach it from the sides. I had in mind a stock-inspired T/A spoiler, but not split in the middle, and longer... as in at least twice as long. Paint it black and your average Chevy guy would probably walk right past it...
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/15/14 05:18 PM

Quote:

IS there anything that can be done to help integrate that chin spoiler with the front of the Challenger?

I'm sure it's effective but it looks horribly tacky as it if was on sale at Pep Boys. It just doesn't "fit" the car. Perhaps if it rolled up the sides of the fenders it would look like a bit more thought went into it.



Since it is a copy of the Posey spoiler used during the '70 race season, maybe you should pose the question to someone involved in the trans am efforts of the era why everybody in the series chose such a tacky, Pep Boys approach to a race spoiler.
Posted By: feets

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/15/14 08:29 PM

Quote:

Since it is a copy of the Posey spoiler used during the '70 race season, maybe you should pose the question to someone involved in the trans am efforts of the era why everybody in the series chose such a tacky, Pep Boys approach to a race spoiler.



Easy, Killer. I know exactly what it is.

You, of all people, know that when you're building a race car winning comes first. Performance absolutely takes precedence over all else. Pretty is the last thing on anybody's mind.

In the early 70s there were still Formula 1 teams that were operation without benefit of wind tunnels. Most stuff was shot from the hip. When something worked, you kept it.

That chunk of guard rail under the front of the car worked. Done. On to the next item.

We know far more these days and have far better manufacturing at hand. Surely there's something that can perform the same job but do so in a manner that is better integrated with the vehicle design and less of an amateurish hack than sliding an industrial size dust pan under the car.

Find me another item on the exterior of the car that is perfectly flat, sharp edged, and protruding sharply from the adjacent surface.
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/16/14 10:40 AM

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Quote:

Since it is a copy of the Posey spoiler used during the '70 race season, maybe you should pose the question to someone involved in the trans am efforts of the era why everybody in the series chose such a tacky, Pep Boys approach to a race spoiler.



Easy, Killer. I know exactly what it is.

You, of all people, know that when you're building a race car winning comes first. Performance absolutely takes precedence over all else. Pretty is the last thing on anybody's mind.

In the early 70s there were still Formula 1 teams that were operation without benefit of wind tunnels. Most stuff was shot from the hip. When something worked, you kept it.

That chunk of guard rail under the front of the car worked. Done. On to the next item.

We know far more these days and have far better manufacturing at hand. Surely there's something that can perform the same job but do so in a manner that is better integrated with the vehicle design and less of an amateurish hack than sliding an industrial size dust pan under the car.

Find me another item on the exterior of the car that is perfectly flat, sharp edged, and protruding sharply from the adjacent surface.



You're just mad because to put the same scale ov spoiler on your Imp you'd need to weld a garage door solid and mount it....
Posted By: Jerry

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/16/14 01:13 PM

now that's funny! what does he do about the rear spoiler? wing from a 747?
Posted By: feets

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/16/14 03:29 PM

Quote:

now that's funny! what does he do about the rear spoiler? wing from a 747?



Industrial size snow plow.
Posted By: Jerry

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/16/14 07:09 PM

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Quote:

now that's funny! what does he do about the rear spoiler? wing from a 747?



Industrial size snow plow.




I was going to suggest that but since your from didn't texas didn't know if you would know what a snow plow is. here in the Midwest we just about have to drive them to work in the winter.
Posted By: feets

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/16/14 08:35 PM

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Quote:

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now that's funny! what does he do about the rear spoiler? wing from a 747?



Industrial size snow plow.




I was going to suggest that but since your from didn't texas didn't know if you would know what a snow plow is. here in the Midwest we just about have to drive them to work in the winter.



I'm fascinated by your reluctance to move to a more hospitable climate.
I enjoy winter weather. I also enjoy leaving it behind and going home when I've had enough.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/16/14 10:06 PM

Rear spoiler?
About the last thing one should be worried about is body lift or keeping the tires planted when you're pushing 5300 lbs steel around...

As for filling the vacuum gap behind the car when at speed, I would look into blowing highly compressed air into that area or something
Posted By: feets

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/17/14 06:18 AM

When you're packing the aerodynamics of a vending machine (and a large one at that) you don't worry too much about aero.
Just add boost and tires.
Posted By: MuuMuu101

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/17/14 06:45 AM

Quote:

Rear spoiler?
About the last thing one should be worried about is body lift or keeping the tires planted when you're pushing 5300 lbs steel around...

As for filling the vacuum gap behind the car when at speed, I would look into blowing highly compressed air into that area or something



Quote:

When you're packing the aerodynamics of a vending machine (and a large one at that) you don't worry too much about aero.
Just add boost and tires.



Well, 67Charger runs his '67 Charger at the Silver State. He was telling me that when he first got into the 120 mph class he had issues as the car would produce so much lift at some points he'd have no steering feel. That's why he added a big front splitter to his car. A rear wing will help more with traction. How much, I'm not sure, but I'd imagine quite a bit. At the last autocross even I went to I saw a '73 Camaro utilizing a huge spoiler. I asked the guys if there was really any benefit to it at low speeds and they said it had a little, but when the car hit around 50 mph it just sucked the rear end down and the car came alive. It should help with our front heavy cars. Larger tires would just be a bonus. Compare the aero of the Hellcat Charger and Challenger. Same everything, but the Charger added an extra 4 mph to its top speed and a couple tenths of a second in the 1/4 mile.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/17/14 10:46 AM

The 1st gen. Chargers where 'known' to have (rear) body lift when they hit the Nascar tracks.
A little lip-spoiler on the decklid of those models disturbed the air well enough to fill the area behind the car quicker.

The front splitter would create a low pressure area under the car and smooth out the airflow so that would helped a lot aswell I could imagine.

For that same reason I would like to mount a spoiler of some sorts on my own Dart, but will only do this after I've changed to Hotchkis-shocks and perhaps better torsion bars.

Mounted slightly higher than in the pic;



Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/17/14 02:55 PM

All our cars will have lift front and rear lift without aero aids. The rear is in part due to the concave rear window to deck surfaces.

Charger 500 and the winged cars fixed the problem for nascar.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/17/14 03:14 PM

Loss of mechanical grip becomes a real thing on the road course and when you start moving these cars at speed. These cars are all style and no aero. Before my motor blew in 2012, I started playing with a bunch of aero mods. The most notable one was a massive air dam that went from the bottom of the radiator to about 2" off the ground. If I were to add rear wing, I'd probably have to add a splitter as well.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/17/14 04:44 PM

Quote:

All our cars will have lift front and rear lift without aero aids. The rear is in part due to the concave rear window to deck surfaces.



All of our cars?

Don't think my 65 Cuda's fat back window has the same problem.

Grille's pretty flush too.

Air under the front though...
Posted By: feets

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/17/14 04:56 PM

Samy, you've probably seen this a billion times.



Now, what happens when you take away most of the air under the wing?

The front spoiler does exactly that. It pushes that air to the side and reduces the flow under the car. It also creates a low pressure area behind the spoiler. That helps draw air through the radiator and cooling package too.

The cars will have lift at the front due to the car blasting air aside. They will also have lift at the rear from the turbulence of a chopped off roof line and rear end.
The rear spoilers do exactly what they say. They spoil the air flowing over the back of the car. Instead of a laminar flow they smack the air upwards and create a more turbulent flow. This increases drag in front of and behind the spoiler but the air in front of it also pushes the car down. That's why wings are more efficient. They move the air without completely blocking it's path.

Take a look at this Ferrari. At 240 mph the front end has so much lift that the suspension is maxed out.



Read the link to the story behind the car. It ran 267 mph at 66% throttle.
http://bobnorwood.com/Terminal%20Velocity%A0%20Norwood%208_2-Liter%20Power%20on%20the%20Salt.htm

Longer cars have better control over the air flow. That's why Bonneville streamliners are really long.
People complain that the smart car should get 60+ mpg on the highway. It can't because it sucks. Well, it sucks the air in behind it at speed due to the lack of bodywork. It's very turbulent as witnessed by the collection of dirt and grime on the back window.

The Charger is longer than the Challenger and has more surface area to handle the air while enjoying a similar size frontal area.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/17/14 09:20 PM

Fastbacks suffer from rear lift. Their profile is an airfoil.

Need to have small flat decklid. Create rear downforce. In nascar in the late 80's when the T-bird was dominant, the GM aero coupes did not run the rear window all the way to the back. They left some decklid.

Nascar 66/67 Satellite was more successful then the pure fastback 66/67 Chargers

Go back the 1969 Car Life Magazine test. Camaro was better than Javelin and GTO.
Posted By: feets

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/17/14 10:39 PM

Quote:

Fastbacks suffer from rear lift. Their profile is an airfoil.




Yep. The tunnel created by the Charger's C pillars played havoc with the wind too.
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/18/14 11:06 AM

Quote:


Take a look at this Ferrari. At 240 mph the front end has so much lift that the suspension is maxed out.



Read the link to the story behind the car. It ran 267 mph at 66% throttle.
http://bobnorwood.com/Terminal%20Velocity%A0%20Norwood%208_2-Liter%20Power%20on%20the%20Salt.htm



267mph from what looks like a (pretty much) stock-bodied Magnum era Ferrari? [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] me. Kind ov ironic coming from a guy that famously said "Aerodynamics are for guys who cant build engines."

NOW i'm impressed. A guy from my old gym drove a car like that... some 308GTO or something. I couldn't imagine going that fast in such a little skateboard...

Quote:

Longer cars have better control over the air flow. That's why Bonneville streamliners are really long.
People complain that the smart car should get 60+ mpg on the highway. It can't because it sucks. Well, it sucks the air in behind it at speed due to the lack of bodywork. It's very turbulent as witnessed by the collection of dirt and grime on the back window.



I thought long and hard about building an AMX instead ov my Challenger... its still an option. But as much as the super short wheelbase helps in some things, in this way certainly not. And yeah... i did think ov the Smart Car. Drove one once... scary on the highway. Didn't feel stable at all... which at the time i attributed to it almost being taller than it is long...

Quote:

The Charger is longer than the Challenger and has more surface area to handle the air while enjoying a similar size frontal area.



Yep... i know my car is shorter... but the Charger has that awful rear window deal, which by every account does a LOT ov damage to the ultra-high speed effort, yet still they went 190... Hmmm... If not as good, bet i'd be close. Quite honestly... i think my extremely low weight (for the size ov the car, Challengers still aint small) is going to damage any super-high MPH effort more than anything else.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 10/30/14 05:46 PM

Yes, the front spoiler shown here helped immensely. The front planted down and was quite stable at 140 which was my class max and the speed I was going in this picture. The problem I had here was the tail getting light and feeling like it wanted to "wag". You can see in this pic I am down on the front suspension and from my measurements, I'm into it about an inch lower than its resting height. Bear in mind I am running 1.14" t-bars, so that is a lon of force. Next step is a small spoiler on the rear for the higher speed stuff.


Posted By: feets

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 11/04/14 02:12 AM

Nice pic!

I enjoy seeing the old iron going out to play.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 11/07/14 04:21 PM

Quote:

Yes, the front spoiler shown here helped immensely. The front planted down and was quite stable at 140 which was my class max and the speed I was going in this picture. The problem I had here was the tail getting light and feeling like it wanted to "wag". You can see in this pic I am down on the front suspension and from my measurements, I'm into it about an inch lower than its resting height. Bear in mind I am running 1.14" t-bars, so that is a lon of force. Next step is a small spoiler on the rear for the higher speed stuff.







man I'd love to do that.... too bad we don't have anything like that here in Maryland.
Posted By: Bzzzz

Re: Years ago... Hotrod magazine... 190mph 68 Charger... - 11/09/14 07:24 PM

Quote:

I've re-uploaded the Charger videoclip and enhanced the lousy soundquality a bit and removed most of the annoying high pitch tone in the clip;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyfqPuBJ90U






Thanks for Re-uploading my video.
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