Moparts
15" tires
Posted By: Rapom65
15" tires - 10/18/13 05:36 PM
Due to my narrowed rear axle I'd need pricey custom built rear rims to step up to a 17" + wheel/rim package. So until I win the lottery I'm stuck with my existing 15" rims. Looking at available tires with a minimum 12" section width rapidly narrows the selection down to a couple of options. The only choice that even remotely resemble a handling tire are the Mickey Thompson SR series. The Ford Cobra (not Mustang) guys seem to like them fairly well but my searches on handling comments has come up empty.
Tony (TC@HP2) posted some comments a year ago about these tires in response to a question from Mopar Mitch. I'm posting his edited responses below and hope he, and others with some 1st hand knowledge, will chime in:
"Another option may be to use the Mickey Thompson SR tires in 26x10x15 front and 26x12x15 rear. These tires are measured by section width in inches, so they would be close to a 260/50 and a 305/45. So they would be as wide as a vintage TA look, but a but shorter in overall height. Another advantage to this tire combo is these are H rated, so they may tend to stick a bit better than the average S or T rated street tire."
Pic of TC's car: "Here is the current combo with the 26x10 and 26x12 MT SR. Front rim is 8" rear rim is 10". IMO, the 10" is a skosh to wide of a rim for a 305. I wish there was a 315 or 325 15" tire out there that didn't cost an arm and a leg. Not sure how I feel about this rear tire and I may go for a 28x12 on my next set. That would be about a 305/55. I'll have to wait and see how these feel."
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/18/13 05:49 PM
Specific questions for TC, any one else with input please join the party.
TC you stated "Not sure how I feel about this rear tire and I may go for a 28x12 on my next set" What was it you didn't like, tire not tall enough looks wise, 28 x 12 would bulge more at the side wall on a 10" rim, or? Did you try a 28 x 12 yet?
Your thoughts on handling performance of these tires...
What is the back space on your rims F&R? Do you feel a 7" front rim would pinch the 26 x 8 too much? Have any rubbing issues anywhere?
Thanks for all your help on this and other questions you have responded to.
Posted By: feets
Re: 15" tires - 10/18/13 07:11 PM
10" tires do not belong on 7" wheels. You need to be around 9" for a proper fit.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/18/13 10:02 PM
OOPS! Typo, should have been 26x8, fixed...
Posted By: feets
Re: 15" tires - 10/18/13 10:09 PM
8" tires will work on a 7" wheel since you're not looking at a crazy low profile.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: 15" tires - 10/18/13 11:41 PM
Have you looked at Team III wheels?
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/19/13 03:00 AM
Quote:
Have you looked at Team III wheels?
Yes and when I buy new rims they will be high on the list. Unfortunately with the cash available right now I can buy new 15" tires and finish the car or I can buy 17"+ tires & rims and not finish the car. Either way sucks.
Here's what's still on the shopping list...
4 speed refresh - bearings & syncos
Firm Feel III conversion
Brake booster rebuild
Firm Feel T-bars
Fox/Hotchkis shocks
exhaust pipes (have TTIs and Flowmaster Mufflers)
heater box rebuild kit
ignition system
push rods
gauges
spark plug wires
plus a million bits and pieces
then tires.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: 15" tires - 10/19/13 03:55 AM
Quote:
Specific questions for TC, any one else with input please join the party.
TC you stated "Not sure how I feel about this rear tire and I may go for a 28x12 on my next set" What was it you didn't like, tire not tall enough looks wise, 28 x 12 would bulge more at the side wall on a 10" rim, or? Did you try a 28 x 12 yet?
Your thoughts on handling performance of these tires...
What is the back space on your rims F&R? Do you feel a 7" front rim would pinch the 26 x 8 too much? Have any rubbing issues anywhere?
Thanks for all your help on this and other questions you have responded to.
Hey Rapom,
Only reason I would go the 28" rear tires is the look. 26" square doesn't look bad, but the 28"s would like more era correct. No, I've haven't tried 28"s yet. I actually haven't tried the 26" yet.
When I was inspecting the engine for its install( a former race engine from my drag car) I found a couple of blackened bearings, so my plan on getting it together and on the road fell apart for a time. So I can't comment on the sticking ability of the MT SRs. Talking to the reps at Mickey Thompson, they are claiming a 15k mileage capability out of these tires, if you don't abuse them which tells me they are a bit softer than your average BFG.
Rims are 15x8 front, with 4.5 back space. No rubs under full compression or full lock, but the fender lip edge was close enough to make me roll it to avoid any potential problems. A 4.75 back space (which I had with a previous set of wheels) would have been perfect. 4.75" is as much back space as you can run with a 15" rim before it hits the ball joint. Rears are 15x10 with 5" back space. Rear housing is a '67 B body with springs moved 1" inboard and zero arch leafs. Again, no rubbing issues anywhere.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/20/13 03:52 PM
TC thanks for the response and info. Guess I will be the guinea pig for this experiment. Have two new-ish sets of N50 MT "I" tread rears I was going to use up while I saved for new rims/tires. From what I've been able to find out they are a road race oriented bias ply but old school tech. Unfortunately I have found nothing out there that would match up to them for the front. So on to plan B.
These N50s are 13.25" section, 11.5" tread & 27" tall on my 10" rims. I set my ride height for my 4 link rear for that height tire and now I'm torn which way to go, 26" or 28" x 12".
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: 15" tires - 10/20/13 04:22 PM
Yes the MT I tires are old school bias ply, but they also have 4 ply sidewalls so even though they are tall, they are probably going to deflect much less than the current crop of 2 ply sidewall radials.
Why not pick up a pair of G-60 MTs for the front? 27" tall, 10.4 section width with 7.4" tread face.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mtt-1566 Granted its a bit tall for a front tire, but judicious trimming might fit it.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/20/13 09:55 PM
All though they are listed on Summit they show no price and are "unavailable" when put in the shopping cart. I think these tires were long ago discontinued. I've tried searches in the past for these and usually end up with a bunch of garbage results. My only hope would be to find some NOS somewhere but no luck on the Web. In fact I've totally bombed on finding any 4 ply bias front tires that would even sort of match up to these. That is why I was leaning towards the SRs. Not the best handling tire out there I'm sure but a least they're 15" and not stupid money for a set of 4.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: 15" tires - 10/21/13 02:50 AM
I was thinking they might be discoed. Too bad. Try these guys:
http://porterstire.com/sportsmanitires-tennessee#u=/Line:1134/DisplayAll:0I wouldn't mix the ST, SR, or other radials with the "I" rears. Just my preference.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: 15" tires - 10/21/13 03:04 AM
If you're dead set on 15's you might run across some Hoosier R6 in decent sizes but none in a 28" tall.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?...romCompare1=yes
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: 15" tires - 10/21/13 09:41 AM
I have some really neat 15x8" rims i got for my Challenger project (while i save for the fancy 18's) and was looking to find some legal-looking 295/50-15'-ish tires for them, but i got lost in the choices. Figured i might find something cool in Goodyear, as i see lots ov them on actual race cars, but really really good 15's are a confusing proposal. My only criteria really was that it had tread, last longer than a year, and might look semi-legal to a passing cop at 30mph. I finally gave up. Might sell the rims, might just waste some money on Radial T/A's... though thats a pretty dangerous tire as far as i'm concerned.
A BFG Rival or G-Force KD/KDW2-level tire in 295/50-15 would be cool. I still think they'd sell enough ov them to warrant the tooling.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: 15" tires - 10/21/13 02:40 PM
Yeah, pickings are slim in 15" categories for performance street. Most are designed for cruisers (high mileage/low traction)and have not had significant updates to their construction in decades.
The two newest carcass designs for 15" tires are the MT SR and the Maxxis Marauder. Both H rated, both classed as LT tires, both with decent tread designs. In the realm of street competition tires are of course the Hoosier A and R series and the Avon CR6ZZ.
I suppose if you were so inclined, you could pick up some radial slicks and groove them to a street type tread. They may casually appear to be legal, but close inspection of the sidewall warning would say otherwise. Could lead to liability issues and a host of trouble if you were to ever get in an accident with them on the car.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/21/13 10:36 PM
If I could find a NOS set of G60 "I"s I would run them in the front just so I could wear out the two sets of N50s I have in the shop. I considered running a radial front with them but research showed that was a real bad idea. Most 15s in a wide profile are constructed with either drag radial compounds/tread(less), or are hard street compounds/all season tread. You also have the comp tires; R1s, A6s and Avons but you sure don't want to ruin them highway driving. SRs are not race tires but there a step above what else is available. It is what it is until demand fosters new tire offerings or the lack thereof completely kills 15s for good. Ultimately I will be going 17s or bigger but it will be "down the road some".
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: 15" tires - 10/22/13 03:22 AM
In bias ply designs you could look at Pro-Trac or American Racer to complement the MT "I"s. I think Towel City still offers bias plys as well. No exact matching tread pattern, but similar construction and sizes.
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: 15" tires - 10/22/13 09:16 AM
Quote:
In bias ply designs you could look at Pro-Trac or American Racer to complement the MT "I"s. I think Towel City still offers bias plys as well. No exact matching tread pattern, but similar construction and sizes.
Or if you know a good carpenter with a good lathe you could make some tires out ov wood?
With all due respect, why is anyone talking about ancient bias-ply tires in a cornering forum? That stuff was less than marginal 40 years ago, let alone how bad it would be, even NOS if you found some today. My 15 year old sun-baked Radial T/A's i use for rollers would work better than an 'I' tread MT or any old bias trash. I had Pro Tracs on my 70 Buick when i was 18 years old and immortal, and even i thought they were scary back then...
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: 15" tires - 10/22/13 09:29 AM
Quote:
Yeah, pickings are slim in 15" categories for performance street. Most are designed for cruisers (high mileage/low traction)and have not had significant updates to their construction in decades.
The two newest carcass designs for 15" tires are the MT SR and the Maxxis Marauder. Both H rated, both classed as LT tires, both with decent tread designs. In the realm of street competition tires are of course the Hoosier A and R series and the Avon CR6ZZ.
I suppose if you were so inclined, you could pick up some radial slicks and groove them to a street type tread. They may casually appear to be legal, but close inspection of the sidewall warning would say otherwise. Could lead to liability issues and a host of trouble if you were to ever get in an accident with them on the car.
Have you actually tried that 295/50-15 Marauder? I didn't know they came in a 295. Wonder if they'd be as good as say, the old Comp T/A (H-rated). I had those on my A66 Challenger, though they were very small (235 & 255/60-15's) and that car actually did pretty damn well with them. I'd be down for a 295/50-15 version ov those Comp T/A's, or a similar level tire in a Marauder, for the time being anyways. Till i can afford the 18" Forgelines...
About grooving a slick... how hokey would that look? Could you dictate the design to any real degree? Are there not rain tires in a Goodyear racing tire? The Goodyear racing catalog seems to have a lot ov options, and in wide 15's too... but again, its just too confusing a catalog to figure out.
Posted By: kielbasa
Re: 15" tires - 10/22/13 06:11 PM
I have the 28x12 s/r in rear (15x9 rims), 26x10 in front (original 7" rims)- car isn't finished yet so I haven't been able to drive with these yet, so I can't elaborate on them.
But these are the most bias type looking radial I can find (square edged).
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/22/13 06:25 PM
Kielbasa do you have any more pics of your car with this set of tires that you can post??? Especially from the side, front and rear low angle if possible. Do you know the offsets of your rims and any clearance issues you see coming when you get it on the road? Any input would help me greatly, thanks.
Posted By: kielbasa
Re: 15" tires - 10/22/13 06:40 PM
the front rims are original, so I do not know their offset - however they came from the factory. They will barely rub the frame at full lock.
The rears have 4 1/2" backspacing.
Clearances in the rear should suffice (fender lip to tire)...i had 3 neighbor kids in the back seat, my wife and 2 daughters jumping in the trunk while I had my hand on top of the tire between tire and body lip - my hand never got cut, so I will assume it will be ok. Approx 3/4" to 1" clearance to leaf spring. But this is with 65~67 B-body rear end and offset shackles.
Posted By: kielbasa
Re: 15" tires - 10/22/13 06:41 PM
more
Posted By: kielbasa
Re: 15" tires - 10/22/13 06:43 PM
another
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/22/13 07:17 PM
Perfect, thanks for posting those pics they help a lot. I believe the stock 15 x 7 rally wheel had a 4.25 back space. My 15 x 7 front rims are 4.0 BS but I've converted to 11.75 disks, which I'm told, will increase my track width "less than a quarter inch per side". How much clearance do you have to your front fender lip at the top of the tire? How close is the tire to the front lower corner of the front wheel opening as you turn the wheel lock to lock?
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: 15" tires - 10/22/13 08:37 PM
ProTrac's are still available new from Coker, if you really want bias plies.
I ran ProTrac N50-15's on the back of my 64 300 and ProTracs 245-14's in the front.
They wander alot, especially in rutted roads. They hydroplane alot, especially if it's wet out at all.
I drove them from San Diego to Memphis and back, plus about 3 more years tooling around.
Great looks is about all I would give them.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cok-72146/overview/
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: 15" tires - 10/23/13 03:45 AM
Quote:
Or if you know a good carpenter with a good lathe you could make some tires out ov wood?
With all due respect, why is anyone talking about ancient bias-ply tires in a cornering forum? That stuff was less than marginal 40 years ago, let alone how bad it would be, even NOS if you found some today. My 15 year old sun-baked Radial T/A's i use for rollers would work better than an 'I' tread MT or any old bias trash. I had Pro Tracs on my 70 Buick when i was 18 years old and immortal, and even i thought they were scary back then...
Could not the same be said for the carburetor? Yet it is still a cost effective and manageable method of putting power to the ground.
Have you perused the Hoosier catalog anytime lately? It is still 50% bias ply. While they have lost favor on street applications in general, they are still a very viable competition tire. Now, while the main thrust of this topic is for a street car, the OP has 2 sets of the old N50s, so why not indulge the request. I'd put those MT I compounds over even new TAs any day.
Heck, IMO, Bias ply should hold a more prominent place with neophyte handling applications. Their traction circle, sound, and feel could produce very rapid learnings in the unexperienced driver. They have a very linear and wide traction window. By comparison, a radial will have a more narrow range of grip to deal with and a novice may find themselves blowing off the tires more often than not.
Quote:
Have you actually tried that 295/50-15 Marauder? I didn't know they came in a 295. Wonder if they'd be as good as say, the old Comp T/A (H-rated). I had those on my A66 Challenger, though they were very small (235 & 255/60-15's) and that car actually did pretty damn well with them. I'd be down for a 295/50-15 version ov those Comp T/A's, or a similar level tire in a Marauder, for the time being anyways. Till i can afford the 18" Forgelines...
No, I have not. I haven't even worn out my SRs yet. I might try them out in the future though. They actually offer a whole host of sizes from 14 to 18. The trick may be finding a distributor who will pick them up for you. This also demonstrates that this is one of the few new carcass designs out there if they have used it in this product line up to those more modern sizes. http://www.maxxis.com/AutomobileLight-Truck/Light-Truck-SUV/MA-S1-Marauder.aspx
Quote:
Are there not rain tires in a Goodyear racing tire? The Goodyear racing catalog seems to have a lot ov options, and in wide 15's too... but again, its just too confusing a catalog to figure out.
Then go to these guys. Click the link, open the folder called Cobra Tires and browse. You can ignore the bias plys on this list. http://rogerkrausracing.com/pages/pricing.html
Quote:
About grooving a slick... how hokey would that look? Could you dictate the design to any real degree?
Not as hokey as you might think and you can dictate them to a very high degree. Again, at Roger Kraus, click the information link, open the tire grooving tab, view pictures.
Just for grins and for the browsing pleasure of those with more time on their hands;
The official tire for many IMCA racing divisions are found here: http://www.americanraceronline.com/ Many of these stock chassis, bias ply machines will out handle street cars with set ups costing 3-4x as much.
Track tires for a large number of local bullrings are usually acquired here. http://www.towelcityracingtires.com/
They also build treads with camber built into them. Your welcome to beat the retread horse with these guys too. I've used and abused their products for years. I've had more trouble with brand new BFG TAs then TC retreads.
Posted By: kielbasa
Re: 15" tires - 10/23/13 02:38 PM
I also converted from the stock discs (10.75 or whatever they were) to the cordoba 11.75 size.....the 15" rallyes did not clear the calipers. I had some custom spacers made, 1/8" thick, so the fronts are spaced out in the pics. Here are some pics...
Posted By: kielbasa
Re: 15" tires - 10/23/13 02:41 PM
another pic
Posted By: kielbasa
Re: 15" tires - 10/23/13 02:42 PM
and another
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/23/13 09:33 PM
Thanks so much for the pictures and info on your front set up. You have been a great help. Got to take some measurements and crunch a few numbers but it looks like I have my tire issue resolved. Now we can stop discussing plywood disc wheels!!!
Posted By: AlexP
Re: 15" tires - 10/23/13 11:21 PM
A 200-300 treadwear, stiff sidewall 255/50-15 would do everything I need and prevent me from needing a 17 inch wheel.
I'd keep my steelies forever if such a beast existed.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/24/13 06:18 AM
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: 15" tires - 10/24/13 11:52 AM
Quote:
Could not the same be said for the carburetor? Yet it is still a cost effective and manageable method of putting power to the ground.
Oh not even remotely the same thing. Carbs still rule racing for the most part, but 1960's tire tech aint ruling anything.
Quote:
Have you perused the Hoosier catalog anytime lately? It is still 50% bias ply. While they have lost favor on street applications in general, they are still a very viable competition tire. Now, while the main thrust of this topic is for a street car, the OP has 2 sets of the old N50s, so why not indulge the request. I'd put those MT I compounds over even new TAs any day.
Heck, IMO, Bias ply should hold a more prominent place with neophyte handling applications. Their traction circle, sound, and feel could produce very rapid learnings in the unexperienced driver. They have a very linear and wide traction window. By comparison, a radial will have a more narrow range of grip to deal with and a novice may find themselves blowing off the tires more often than not.
Isn't that kinda like saying that cars should be slow and dangerous so that people can learn to drive better? I'M talking about the best performance for the money here. I dont want a tire to teach me how to drive, i want a tire to keep me out ov the canyon (the actual canyon), or off the guardrail... ie: ahead ov the other guy.
But again, i'm talking about those old styles like ProTrac, or Formula One Super Stocks... that old crap i used in high school (late 80's) because it was the only way to buy a 12" wide tire for $20 (no one else wanted to use them!). I am fully aware that companies are making new design racing tires in bias ply... I'm sure THAT stuff is fine. You are recommending that some guy put 40 year old tires with a durometer rating somewhere in between that ov a forklift tire and a bowling ball on his classic car and try to go fast around corners. Or am i missing something?
Quote:
No, I have not. I haven't even worn out my SRs yet. I might try them out in the future though. They actually offer a whole host of sizes from 14 to 18. The trick may be finding a distributor who will pick them up for you. This also demonstrates that this is one of the few new carcass designs out there if they have used it in this product line up to those more modern sizes. http://www.maxxis.com/AutomobileLight-Truck/Light-Truck-SUV/MA-S1-Marauder.aspx
Well now you've got me looking high and low for these things. Not an easy tire to find. No Tire Rack means no cheap shipped prices. I refuse to buy anything from Canada (though a store in town carries them), and even Discount Tire doesn't carry them. Hmmm...
Incidentally, what do you think ov the Marauder's 360 treadwear rating? The old T/A is 400, the KDW's start at 300. Wonder what the old Comp T/A's were... Is that number so important? Many guys say a GOOD tire starts at 200...
Posted By: kielbasa
Re: 15" tires - 10/24/13 12:21 PM
Quote:
Thanks so much for the pictures and info on your front set up. You have been a great help. Got to take some measurements and crunch a few numbers but it looks like I have my tire issue resolved. Now we can stop discussing plywood disc wheels!!!
I should have mentioned in the one pic with the front tire to fender corner measurement is with the wheel turned that achieves closest proximity to the fender.
Let me know if you need more info, measurements, etc.
I will say it's been a learning experience trying to get the car the way I want it (and I don't even have the drivetrain installed yet)! Every time I do what seems like a simple mod, turns out to be another adventure. Always seems to be some sort of hiccup (my 15" rallyes not clearing the cordoba calipers is an example, although that one was cheap and easy to fix).....
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: 15" tires - 10/24/13 04:12 PM
Tires of 15" for "competition" desires are very limited as well as sizes are limited. You'd need to look at your chosen club's rules to see what they allow for certain classes. Then, decide if you want them streetable (and to what extent.. daily, wknd, rarely?), or else, trailer them and mount at the track. Hoosier tires are stickiest DOT 15" tires out there, but they truly aren't intended to drive on the street/hwy, though some ppl do just to/from competition events on the wknds.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/24/13 06:29 PM
In response to Kielbasa: "I should have mentioned in the one pic with the front tire to fender corner measurement is with the wheel turned that achieves closest proximity to the fender."
That was very good to know, thanks for informing me.
"Let me know if you need more info, measurements, etc."
Thanks for your help, I surely will.
"I will say it's been a learning experience trying to get the car the way I want it (and I don't even have the drivetrain installed yet)! Every time I do what seems like a simple mod, turns out to be another adventure. Always seems to be some sort of hiccup (my 15" rallyes not clearing the cordoba calipers is an example, although that one was cheap and easy to fix)....."
That is hot roding in a nut shell. Change one thing and you'll end up changing ten others!
Let's steer this thread back onto the road. Although I'm a "neyophite" when it comes to road course/autocross/setting up a Mopar for handling I'm hardly new to building high performance muscle cars. The car I'm building now is the 8th build (7 A bodies, 1 E)that I've been heavily involved in, and that doesn't include other makes. This one is focused on optimizing the handling aspects, for highway performance and some "self competition" at the track. I call it my "Old man's hot rod" because it's going to have power steering, power brakes, OD trans, wipers, heater/defroster ect. I'm done with giving up live-ability and comfort for ultimate performance. My original question was to elicit responses from anyone who had experience with the MT SRs tires so I could determine if these were worth the expense vs just getting some cheap azz front tires so I could wear out the two sets of N50s I have sitting on the floor. Do I think the N50s are a performance tire? Hell no, but I have limited funds to allocate to my car so I have to st~r~e~t~c~h every buck to it's limit and use what I currently have on the shelves. Plus I have to finish building the car and need to buy a lot of equipment yet. Why not go 17s +? My axle width necessitates a 3" ish backspace on a 15x10 rim. I could easily fit a 17x11 with a 3.5~4" BS. Are there rims available with those specs, yes. Cheapest ones I'd spend my $ on are $465 each. Add in tires, shipping, mounting & balancing and your in the $3000 range. Chump change to some of you but that's a years worth of scrimping and scraping for me and I suspect a lot of others who frequent this site. I've got no issues using my old crap as it will wear out fast while I spend time testing and tuning the car. By then I will need new tires and hopefully will have the money saved up for those big hoops. I just wish a tire company would make a decent 15" performance tire in the wider widths. I don't really "need" 17" or bigger wheels to get the handling I want but they evidently don't think the economies are there to produce them. Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, "if you don't build it they wont come". As many people I hear lamenting the lack of 15s I think they would be surprised at the sales.
Posted By: jcc
Re: 15" tires - 10/24/13 06:57 PM
You need to get past the "wishing" phase. We are all in same boat. I do wonder if the 15" tire molds still exist, or do they scrap/recycle them. If one size was the most sought after, wonder what it would take to have a company make a run? And if its not soon, I will be 100% non 15" soon on my cars.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/24/13 07:14 PM
Yep. A saying I'm fond of: "put your wishes in one hand and s--t in the other, see which one gives you a warm squishy feeling".
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: 15" tires - 10/25/13 02:29 AM
Quote:
A 200-300 treadwear, stiff sidewall 255/50-15 would do everything I need and prevent me from needing a 17 inch wheel.
I'd keep my steelies forever if such a beast existed.
Maybe we petition Blockley Tyre to make 255/50, 275/50 and 295/50 VR 15s. They make some limited 15" VR sizes now and they do say they are open to making other sizes. But after sizing, molds, and exchange rates, they will probably be $300-400 each.
http://www.blockleytyre.com/
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: 15" tires - 10/25/13 02:49 AM
Quote:
Oh not even remotely the same thing. Carbs still rule racing for the most part, but 1960's tire tech aint ruling anything.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. While all top series use radials, there are probably more weekend racers on bias plys than radials.
Quote:
Isn't that kinda like saying that cars should be slow and dangerous so that people can learn to drive better? I'M talking about the best performance for the money here. I dont want a tire to teach me how to drive, i want a tire to keep me out ov the canyon (the actual canyon), or off the guardrail... ie: ahead ov the other guy.
I guess I'm not making the point correctly. Not sure how exactly to explain it unless you've driven both in the same situation under the watchful eye of a stop watch. Both can be fast, both are safe, but the feel between them is different. A bias ply sounds and feels different as you reach the threshold of its grip. It takes a long time period to loose that grip and it can be recovered quickly. By contrast the radial will loose grip more abruptly with less warning and take longer to recover. Unless you have learned how to quickly identify where that threshold is.
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But again, i'm talking about those old styles like ProTrac, or Formula One Super Stocks... that old crap i used in high school (late 80's) because it was the only way to buy a 12" wide tire for $20 (no one else wanted to use them!). I am fully aware that companies are making new design racing tires in bias ply... I'm sure THAT stuff is fine.
Bias ply is bias ply. The only thing that has changed is rubber compounds and the broad square shoulder the resto guys love. Guess what the I treads have that Pro-Trac and Super Stocks didn't. The Is are a copy of a road racing design that was prolific in its day and is still used extensively in vintage racing under the Dunlap name. It is not nearly as bad a tire as a Wide Oval or Polyglas
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You are recommending that some guy put 40 year old tires with a durometer rating somewhere in between that ov a forklift tire and a bowling ball on his classic car and try to go fast around corners. Or am i missing something?
He already has them and they are considerably softer than most 17" street tires. Lets start with what he has and I'm trying to explain why that isn't that bad of a decision given the circumstances. IMO, Rapom, go to the American Racer website. Find the regional distributor for the IMCA G60 tires, pick up a couple for $110 each, slap em on, and tear up the asphalt. Or you swap them out for an entire new set of SRs at $250 each.
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Well now you've got me looking high and low for these things. Not an easy tire to find. No Tire Rack means no cheap shipped prices. I refuse to buy anything from Canada (though a store in town carries them), and even Discount Tire doesn't carry them. Hmmm...
I told you it wouldn't be easy. I have a local distributor and he won't pick up the sizes I want because he doesn't normally stock them. That's why I picked up SRs.
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Incidentally, what do you think ov the Marauder's 360 treadwear rating? The old T/A is 400, the KDW's start at 300. Wonder what the old Comp T/A's were... Is that number so important? Many guys say a GOOD tire starts at 200...
Can't say. However, despite what some sanctioning bodies rule books say, I hope we all understand that tread wear ratings are not universal but instead are relative. The ratings only matter within the context of that manufacturers product lines. If everything they make is rock hard at 400, then half that hardness at 200 could still be a higher durometer than someone else's 300. Heck, MT won't even rate their tires that way because everything they have is so specialized. If an MT SR was 400, a drag slick would be a 200 and I bet it would grip a whole lot better than a Nitto 200. IMO, treadwear ratings aren't a fair comparison and when Dan W's shoot out is published, we'll all see the difference between similar ratings.
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: 15" tires - 10/25/13 11:33 AM
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Oh not even remotely the same thing. Carbs still rule racing for the most part, but 1960's tire tech aint ruling anything.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. While all top series use radials, there are probably more weekend racers on bias plys than radials.
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Isn't that kinda like saying that cars should be slow and dangerous so that people can learn to drive better? I'M talking about the best performance for the money here. I dont want a tire to teach me how to drive, i want a tire to keep me out ov the canyon (the actual canyon), or off the guardrail... ie: ahead ov the other guy.
I guess I'm not making the point correctly. Not sure how exactly to explain it unless you've driven both in the same situation under the watchful eye of a stop watch. Both can be fast, both are safe, but the feel between them is different. A bias ply sounds and feels different as you reach the threshold of its grip. It takes a long time period to loose that grip and it can be recovered quickly. By contrast the radial will loose grip more abruptly with less warning and take longer to recover. Unless you have learned how to quickly identify where that threshold is.
Gotcha. I DO get what you're trying to say about that. I still think we're talking about different models/designs ov bias tires though.
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But again, i'm talking about those old styles like ProTrac, or Formula One Super Stocks... that old crap i used in high school (late 80's) because it was the only way to buy a 12" wide tire for $20 (no one else wanted to use them!). I am fully aware that companies are making new design racing tires in bias ply... I'm sure THAT stuff is fine.
Bias ply is bias ply. The only thing that has changed is rubber compounds and the broad square shoulder the resto guys love. Guess what the I treads have that Pro-Trac and Super Stocks didn't. The Is are a copy of a road racing design that was prolific in its day and is still used extensively in vintage racing under the Dunlap name. It is not nearly as bad a tire as a Wide Oval or Polyglas
Hmmm... well, i'll definitely concede the track experience to you, and i'm not gonna call you wrong, but i HAVE driven on both, including every commonly available old bias design out there, and i wouldn't even take the best ov them over my old Radial T/A's for going around corners. Maybe the bias i got were all 30 years old, but the radials i had were probably 10 years old too. Further, i was doing what practically NOBODY did in the 80's and early 90's... i was putting those bias on all 4 corners, as wide as i could fit, and driving everywhere like i was in a movie chase scene. Meh... i just dont see what you see i guess.
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You are recommending that some guy put 40 year old tires with a durometer rating somewhere in between that ov a forklift tire and a bowling ball on his classic car and try to go fast around corners. Or am i missing something?
He already has them and they are considerably softer than most 17" street tires. Lets start with what he has and I'm trying to explain why that isn't that bad of a decision given the circumstances. IMO, Rapom, go to the American Racer website. Find the regional distributor for the IMCA G60 tires, pick up a couple for $110 each, slap em on, and tear up the asphalt. Or you swap them out for an entire new set of SRs at $250 each.
Too late to go back and re-read exactly what he's got and is trying to do, but i find it hard to believe that he cant afford cheap GOOD tires and wheels. IF looks are not important... then Mustang 17's are ubiquitous, and can bolt up with $100 worth ov spacers. I've seen 4 17x8" rims as cheap as $50, MANY sets for $200 or less. 17" tires from 255 up are just as common, and even a 15 year old V-rated Comp T/A in 17" will kill an old tire around corners. Found a pair ov 265/40Z17 Dunlops for $50 at the tire store last month, another pair ov 285's for $100 with 85%. Found whole sets for under $200 in a decent size/make. I've made matching sets ov GOOD tires for that too. On a Mustang forum last week a guy was selling a set ov 17x9/17x10.5" Bullits with KDW2's for $400+ shipping. Tires were at least decent yet. GOOD rollers do not have to be expensive. Further... there are quite a few old-school/rat-rod/hotrod punks out there that would actually pay money for a decent set ov old school bias tires. He could sell them.
Hell... took me a month ov footwork, but i've now scored a full set ov G-Force KD (the disco'd dry-only) tires for my 96GT. 255/40/17's front and 315/35/17's rear. Total price? $450... and 3 ov them are brand new/still stickered. Got some brand new Bullits coming for $540 shipped. Quite a set up for a grand... always loved the look ov those KD's...
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: 15" tires - 10/25/13 11:42 AM
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Incidentally, what do you think ov the Marauder's 360 treadwear rating? The old T/A is 400, the KDW's start at 300. Wonder what the old Comp T/A's were... Is that number so important? Many guys say a GOOD tire starts at 200...
Can't say. However, despite what some sanctioning bodies rule books say, I hope we all understand that tread wear ratings are not universal but instead are relative. The ratings only matter within the context of that manufacturers product lines. If everything they make is rock hard at 400, then half that hardness at 200 could still be a higher durometer than someone else's 300. Heck, MT won't even rate their tires that way because everything they have is so specialized. If an MT SR was 400, a drag slick would be a 200 and I bet it would grip a whole lot better than a Nitto 200. IMO, treadwear ratings aren't a fair comparison and when Dan W's shoot out is published, we'll all see the difference between similar ratings.
I suppose it would be handy to know how Maxxis as a whole fare against other brands then. I've never really considered them a serious tire, compared to the favorites like BFG, Michelin, Pirelli, etc. My semi-educated guess would be that for a 360 they are hard, especially seeing as the Marauder is actually a truck tire, not a car tire. Though its 'soft' next to their other truck tires... again, its all relative. The KDW2 is '300' and frankly, for how i drive thats all the tire i need. BFG's Radial T/A leaves a LOT to be desired though, and thats a 'BFG 400' treadwear. I'd guess the Marauder is a solid, stiff tire... good in that respect, that is fairly hard in the actual compound. Again... i'd love to be able to compare it to the old H-rated Comp T/A... as i have experience with that tire on the same type car/suspension these will be going on. That would be 'good enough'... for the money.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/25/13 07:17 PM
TC@HP2"IMO, Rapom, go to the American Racer website. Find the regional distributor for the IMCA G60 tires, pick up a couple for $110 each, slap em on, and tear up the asphalt. Or you swap them out for an entire new set of SRs at $250 each." Exactly my conclusion, but, there may be another option (for me), see below....
Pale Roader ~ I would be happy to run Mustang wheels and they would work fine in front but not in the rear. There are no Mustang wheels with a negative offset even close to what I need (narrowed A body 8 3/4, mini tub, custom 4 link) including the use of spacers. Can you imagine how bad I would get flamed here if I even suggested utilizing studs/spacers that big?
However... your comment got me thinking in a different direction. I'm going to do some research and will be back with my findings.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: 15" tires - 10/25/13 09:42 PM
Bolt on spacers would be fine, but not ones that just slip over the existing studs only.
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: 15" tires - 10/26/13 11:42 AM
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Pale Roader ~ I would be happy to run Mustang wheels and they would work fine in front but not in the rear. There are no Mustang wheels with a negative offset even close to what I need (narrowed A body 8 3/4, mini tub, custom 4 link) including the use of spacers. Can you imagine how bad I would get flamed here if I even suggested utilizing studs/spacers that big?
However... your comment got me thinking in a different direction. I'm going to do some research and will be back with my findings.
Again, without reading your original post, it sounds like you're building a drag car. A-body rears are already pretty narrow. I'm generally assured that up to a 2" spacer is still very safe. But if we're talking STOCK Mustang rims that still leaves you pretty sucked into the well. You could pony up for a PAIR ov 17x10.5"s for the rear. In 'deep dish' configuration they have a decent dish to them (around 6.5" backspace). How about a pair ov brand new 10.5" deep dish Bullits on Ebay right now for $220? or all for (9" fronts) for $435?
If you need more dish than that, well... not sure how you'd do that cheap. Even welding some perches on a C-body rear and stuffing that in there wouldn't be cheap. If you got a certain style, you could have a wheel guy widen some rims to the front (not inside) but then you'd have a visible weld in the dish. Widening used to be cheap in some places, but these days its hard to find anyone that'll do a rim for less than $200.
Failing all that, maybe mount some Mustang rims backwards? hahahahaha
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: 15" tires - 10/26/13 01:04 PM
Okay, went back and read the whole lot.
TC@HP's use ov the word 'skosh' made the whole trip worth it. Anyways... 3" backspace on 10"? Well then... good fu-
No wait, i can do better. There was a guy selling brand new 18x11" (i know you wanted 17", but 18's will handle better, 18"s have more and better tire selection, and an 18x11" rim is impossible to find cheap) Torque Thrust II's, made to order with ANY offset, for $360 a piece. You could buy just the rears for now, and used tires. Thats a hella cool rim, in a very hard to get size that you can fit a LOT ov tire on (335's) for $700/pr.
If you look around, you can find more than one place doing this for around the same price. Most ov them are generally typical muscle car styling... Torque Thrust 2's, original TT's, Cragar SS copies, etc. This is still spending some money, but nowhere even close to 2-3K, and you had mentioned buying new 15's tires, ov the rarer variety, so maybe its in your budget.
Let really grasp for some straws now. Seeing as you've not ruled out finding uber-rare NOS tires. Look for some 285/50-15 Pirellis (thats not a typo). They had a killer speed rating too, not sure what it was (V or Z). E-berg had these on his Road Runner (all 4 corners on 8" Super Coupe rims) back in the early 40's and mentioned how great they were. Ov course, these were rare when those articles came out (early 90's?), so good luck. I actually saw a nice used pair ov these on Ebay a couple years ago for a decent price. Thought that was kinda funny.
Then there is always the ridiculous Pirelli P-Zero 345/35-15 (NO typo!) tire, that is STILL stocked at Tire Rack. 24.8" tall though, but at least 12ft wide. The good news? only $751 each.
Okay... doing some mental gymnastics i ventured back into the schematic morass that is the Goodyear racing catalog and it
lists a 26.5x10x15 'Cobra' (Blue Streak Special) tire. 10" rim, 27" tall, 12.9 section width. There is a matching front tire at 26.5" tall and narrower. Even found a pic (below). That might actually work for my application. Though now i wonder how cheap these are. Not legal i'm sure, but they'd sure look mean on my hotrod. Hmmm... There MAY be other options in that catalog, but my IQ is under 200, so i've got more important mysteries ov the universe to spend my day figuring out.
I see Hoosier makes a similar 'vintage' racing tire that might work.
Anyone know how much these racing tires typically cost?
One thing you did not mention Rapom65... was what kind ov car this is for.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/26/13 08:40 PM
Ha... I was going to make the same joke about mounting the Mustang rims backwards.
Had the thought yesterday, while reading your post, about utilizing cheap Bullit wheels on the front and seeing if I could find, or have built reasonably, some(what) matching rears in the deep dish I need. Since some day I'd like to upgrade to a 13"/Viper and rear disks this would be a big plus as those kits seem to be set up for this type rim. Not done looking yet. Do you have a web site or contact info for the fella selling the American Racing rims you mentioned?
Car is a '74 Duster. I got the car and a big pile of parts as a package deal from a fiend of mine who turned his street/strip Duster into a low 9s beasty. Just prior to that I had sold my 440 '72 Demon which I'd morphed over time too much to the strip side of things and didn't enjoy on the street anymore. So what I ended up with was a huge pile of parts from two car projects: tires, rims, OD 4sd, narrowed axle, low mile +400 hp 360, TTI headers, ect. and a gutted and rust free, except trunk floor, Duster body. Wasn't interested in drag racing anymore so I set out to just build a nice street car out of all this. Began with mini tubing and building my own tri-4 link to use the axle and rim/tires on hand. Over time I got more and more interested in road race and auto-x as I had moved south from the Seattle area to just north of Portland, Oregon which has a nice road course.
Sooo...Chassis is completed and now I'm staring at the rims/tires/brakes and realizing that it is just WRONG for my new interest. Have ZERO desire in replacing the rear axle after two years of work setting it up. So how do I get from where I'm at to where I want to go? Thus my question on the MT SRs and bias plys there after. I know it doesn't fit in this forum but who would know better than the guys doing it?
Not stuck on 17s at all, in fact, I like the 18s for the tie rod clearance in the front. Just can't swing the $3k required AND buy everything I need to get the car finished at this point. My goal is to complete this pig over the fall-winter-spring so I can get some use out of it next summer.
Maybe, just maybe, there is a combo of Mustang rims, or similar, with a spacer that would work. I'm looking into that too. It's down right aggravating to search through the new rim offerings @ $100-170 or even less used. Flip that offset the other way around and its 3-4x that price. Yes I know why....
I've pretty much decided on the SRs if, in the end, I'm stuck with 15s for awhile.
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: 15" tires - 10/27/13 12:38 AM
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Ha... I was going to make the same joke about mounting the Mustang rims backwards.
Had the thought yesterday, while reading your post, about utilizing cheap Bullit wheels on the front and seeing if I could find, or have built reasonably, some(what) matching rears in the deep dish I need. Since some day I'd like to upgrade to a 13"/Viper and rear disks this would be a big plus as those kits seem to be set up for this type rim. Not done looking yet. Do you have a web site or contact info for the fella selling the American Racing rims you mentioned?
Two relatively cheapish ways to go here. One, buy some used deep dish Bullits and have them widened to the front. Problems with this idea: visible weld in the dish might put off some people, you're widening an already pretty wide rim, and will likely end up over 12", then you'll need a wiiiiide tire which are wicked-expensive new or very hard to find used (that said i've snagged a pair ov 335/18's and a pair ov 315/17's used in the span ov 2 weeks). Further, widening will start at $400 a pair usually.
The other way is to find that guy with the custom Torque Thrust II's. He'll make what you need (i've talked to him). Now, having said that... i lost his number, and his ad is gone from Ebay.
Edit: He has other custom 18x11's up now. A Torque Thrust D lookin' thing, and a 'Hipster' rim. Same custom deal. Seller is 'ronsrims1' on Ebay (or just look up '18x11 wheel' and scroll down to around the $370 range). Seem to remember they were about $365 each (TT2's), took about 4 weeks to make, and shipped for about $100. He can make you any offset in basic increments. I bet he could still make you some TT2's. He also has narrower sizes for the front as you can afford them down the road, or with your limited wheelwell up front you could probably just wait and source a used pair ov 17x8"s or whatever for the front. Maybe some used (dirt cheap) Bullits for now. Mismatched wheels FTW!!! Just like high school!!! Hahaha
So now thats $800, plus used tires. You can fit anything from a 275 to a 335 on an 11" rim... and with 18's there are LOTS ov choices out there for used tires. Found a decent pair ov used 285/35 18 Pilot Sports here for $60. Bought my 75% 335/30/18 Rossos for $200 shipped.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: 15" tires - 10/28/13 02:44 PM
For the pricing of all these custom rims sets, I think I'd just swap out the rear housing to a size the fits more off the shelf wheels.
I realize you spent a fair amount of time setting it up, but at this point wouldn't it be limited to removing it and duplicating the bracket mounting points? Housing are not difficult to find and welding is considerably less expensive than custom wheels, especially if you want to move into 18"+ territory.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/29/13 02:50 AM
Swapping axles is an option... I've considered it but I'm determined to make what's done work. If there was a truly viable 12 inch section width tire in the 15" rim size I wouldn't even consider the larger sizes. Even though the amount of racing vs street use this car will see is pretty biased to the street, like every one else, I want the car to be a capable handler. So eventually I see no option but to plan for a 17 or 18 wheel. To my eye the larger rims look out of place on a Duster. Because of the somewhat wedge shape of the body a short sidewall/big rim in front makes the car look like a dog draggin its azz across the carpet. The right mix of taller aspect ratios (45,50,55) to give it just a "skosh", as you put it, of rake or, with the right overall setup; suspension height/tire/rim package, to make it low and flat, it can look ok. Maybe a 17 front 18 rear stagger would work but I don't recollect seeing any pics of one set up like that. If the rear modifications had not been done already this thread wouldn't exist as I'd of set it up for 18s to begin with. Like I said before it is what it is, I'll make it work some how.
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: 15" tires - 10/29/13 08:23 AM
I want to agree with Tom here. I understand the whole point WAS to use your existing set-up, that you have invested much time into already, but again, unless i read it wrong, it sounds like it started out as a more drag-oriented project (rear set-up) and now you are trying to make it do everything. It also sounds like you created it from scratch, again if i read that right. That would mean that you dont necessarily know if it will even work. Its one thing to make something go straight and work well enough, but another to make it go around a course (or canyon) and handle safely, let alone quickly. I'd just be concerned about spending close to a grand on custom rollers to find out they're still not going to work. At least if you fabbed up a wider (stockish) axle, used some easy to source rollers, and it didn't work, you'd only be out the rear set up. As in, if you HAD to go back to a stock rear set-up, you could still use whatever used stuff (wheels/tires) you found for the rear.
Just an opinion from a guy that is truly loathe to waste even a few dollars needlessly.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/29/13 10:22 PM
"drag oriented project" ~ No, the axle is narrowed, I'll have to measure again as I don't remember the exact amount and flange-flange measurement off hand, but it was meant from the get go to be a street handler.
"created it from scratch" ~ did I buy a kit from a manufacturer? No. Is it some hokey home made design? No. This is closely patterned off RMSs Street Lynx with larger tubing, big poly bushed rod ends, thicker steel, fully welded vs bolt together. Components: link brackets, tubing & rod ends from 4x4 suspension manufacturer, shock brackets/mounts from Ride Tech, shocks from Strange w/ QA1 springs. I made a few minor mods like bridging the upper link bar to the floor pan where the pinion snubber was to tie the structure together more. Total cost less shocks $520 vs $1795 Street Lynx.
"don't necessarily know if it will even work" ~ True, but there is a lot of satisfied Street Lynx users out there carving up corners. My coilover choice may not be optimal but I'm willing to tune. There may be better systems out there for ultimate handling but this one is built, painted and complete. I need to move on to other things on the car.
"concerned about spending close to a grand on custom rollers" Me too! I've not completed all the research & calculations but it looks promising that a deep dish 17 or 18 x 10.5 Mustang rim and 2" spacer might get the wheel close to where my 15 x 10 sits now. Not exactly what I would like but functional, probably would prohibit me from running on a road course. Cost; $500-600 set of 4, spacers $100, tires have to be replaced regardless, future front disk upgrade possibilities awesome, the fact I'm not a big rim/rubber band fan moot at this point. Swap axle; new brackets and replacement housing, axle bearings (possibly axles), at least as much as the 'stang rims. Redoing all that work?
"a guy that is truly loathe to waste even a few dollars" ~ I can squeeze 6 cents out of a nickle.
I know there will be a lot of tuning to get this rig optimized but I'm confident it will handle vastly better than any of the old muscle I've owned or driven in the past. So it wont be on par with a new stang, Camaro, Vette et al. ~ sucks to be me.
A few very old pics of the car: #1 playing with ride height post mini tub pre suspension work, #2 fabbing up rear suspension, #3 completed axle (brakes are 2 1/2 x 10), #4 sorry, really bad pic of the suspension w/ tires.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: 15" tires - 10/29/13 10:27 PM
Damn, the pictures wont post. Now I've got to figure THIS out.
Posted By: Flo
Re: 15" tires - 10/31/13 05:18 PM
anyone out there actually using Nitto NT 555 R on the street? They have a Y speed rating!
Considering how little I drive my old stuff if they were done after 12,000mls that would be fine with me. But do they acutally handle nice? Are they OK on wet surface?
Greets
Flo
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: 15" tires - 11/03/13 12:03 PM
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anyone out there actually using Nitto NT 555 R on the street? They have a Y speed rating!
Considering how little I drive my old stuff if they were done after 12,000mls that would be fine with me. But do they acutally handle nice? Are they OK on wet surface?
Greets
Flo
Dont buy Nittos.
An update on the Maxxis Marauder 295. Totally and utterly expressly unavailable in Canada. Well... unless i buy 100 ov them. And no (as yet) known sources with good prices that will ship. Looks like illegal race tires it is.
Where is the best place to get good prices on Goodyear or Hoosier racing tires? (ov the treaded road-race variety) Are they generally cheaper or more expensive than street tires?
Posted By: boydsdodge
Re: 15" tires - 11/08/13 12:24 AM
I like the Marauder tires, with the help of A complete Firm Feel suspension upgrade Beamers, Hondas and Mercs are very often surprised how well this 67 Coronet wagon handles.
I like that they are a light truck tire for the stronger sidewall, the tread block is large with out snow cuts making them squirm.
Now if I could get them to make a 275/55,15 I'd be ear to ear grinning.
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