Moparts

Disk Brakes on C-body

Posted By: Flo

Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/12/13 03:24 PM

Hello together,

I am looking for some first-hand experience.
-Car is a 66 Chrysler New Yorker
-factory power drums all around
-already converted to a factory dual master

With the new 440 I want disk brakes upfront!
I know the old 73 disk brake setups, but parts are getting ahrd to find and a little more stopping power would be nice (Germany, hills, Autobahn)

anyone tried this setup?
http://ssbrakes.com/i-10092670-disc-brak...er-booster.html

Best regards
Florian
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/12/13 06:06 PM

Never used SSBC stuff, but those rotors look a bit on the small size for Autobahn runs. Unfortunately, with you being in Germany, your choices are limited. Years ago I was able to use factory parts to convert my 64 300 to 12" rotors, but I doubt you can find that stuff in the junkyard over there.

I will leave comments on the kit you linked to others who may actually have used the stuff. But I would suggest you talk to one of our members here, Dr. Diff, he knows his stuff as does AndyF, either one can point you to the right stuff.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/12/13 10:01 PM

I've read about quite some issues at times with SSBC brakes from people who used them. Most seem to evolve around mismatched Mastercylinders and front/back-brake balance.

The most important items are the caliperbracket adapters.

But if you're handy enough you should be able to design/make them yourself.
These adapters fit much easier 'inside' the back of a 11.75" discrotor than a smaller 10.7 rotor. On a fullsize C-body, I personally wouldn't want anything smaller.


I made adapters like these for a few of my cars already. Even on the older Chryslers from '60, '62, '64 and a '73 Dart I'm running the same '73 rotors and calipers, mounted on the original drumbrake spindles by use of self-made adapters.


Here's the adapters for a '60 Chrysler;




And here for a '64 Chrysler;




A '66 Chrysler will have almost similar adapters as the '64 models, as can be seen by the pic on the SSBC-site.
Posted By: Den300

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/13/13 07:59 AM

Hi Flo,

I wrote an article in the mopar-forum techarchive lat week about a similiar set up
from ssbc. it is without the booster and the force 10 aluminum calipers.
My problem was that it never stopped good until I changed to a different
brake pedal ratio and installed a 15/16" bore master cylinder.
in the city it breaks great, but if I drive a little bit faster there is room to improve.
apart from that the qualitity is very good, good instructions, the kit comes with
everything you need and it is intalled in less than 2 hours. I am thinking about
to take the ssbc adapters as a base an to make some new to install regular
discs from a 69-73 c-body. Something like Herman (BBM) did. It can not be to complicated.
What made a big improvement was th change from ssbc brake pads to yellow stuff.
day and night difference!

regards
Dennis(Dude)
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/13/13 05:59 PM

I used to make a 13 inch kit for C-body cars. I stopped building the kit since it was really slow seller, but it shouldn't be too hard to duplicate if you want some good brakes.

Attached picture 7886089-C_body.jpg
Posted By: Den300

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/14/13 07:02 AM

Andy,
we would love to buy your kit here in good old Germany. There is only one problem.
If you want the title "classic car" for your mopar, your have to have 14 or 15" wheels.
Or anything the factories offered when your car was produced. This gives you
the advantage to achieve a lower tax rate. We have to pay taxes for our cars,
no matter how old they are. This tax ist roughly 250$ per year for cars older then 30 years.
If you got 17" wheels for your disc brake set up, you have to declare your classic mopar as
a "normal" car. tax costs: roughly 35$ x every beginning 100ccm.
For my 446cui it would be 74 times 35 = 2590 dollar tax per year.
Crazy, isn´t it? (446cui = 7310ccm). This is not the end. You also have to pay your
insurance, based on your horse power level combined with a gas price of 8,50$ per gallon.
So if anybody could develope somethinf for 15" wheels that stops like crazy with
modern calipers, I would buy it
Posted By: Flo

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/14/13 09:13 AM

Hello together,

thanks for all the replies!

Just like Dennis stated: For insurance/registration reasons only setups for 15" wheels are an option. At least from the outside it needs to be remotely stock or period correct appearance

As far as I take it the SSBC-kit seems to work OK regarding fit of the adapters, calipers and so on? This would stay a setup with power booster anyhow!

I am also somewhat concerned about is brake balance. Does the SSBC setup overbrake the rear really bad? Is it fixable with a regualtor valve?

Best regards
Florian
Posted By: jyrki

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/14/13 01:30 PM

We have B-body wilwoods in our '67. Pretty easy to modify to fit with basic hand tools.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/14/13 02:13 PM

So limited to 15" means max 12.19" discs, suggest min of 1.25" thick, unless you want to get real ambitious and go 1.375", but I see little need unless the autobahn begins installing a lot of red lights. Since clearances are tight be sure you take into account your particular wheel if you go 12.19", which is a common size. Wlllwood offers a large cost effective selective, did you mention the amount of daily poor weather driving exposure, since most, not all of the wilwood stuff lacks caliper weather protection. I also would work out the front conversion, test and then decide if rear discs are really needed.
Posted By: PHJ426

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/14/13 02:50 PM

IIRC the unicast B body 11.75" with First Gen Viper / Brembo caliper clears 15" wheels. There might be some that don't clear. Click on the link below then click on the picture of the Road Runner. Brads70 has the Viper caliper on his 70 Challenger using 73C body spindle with 1.25" x 11.75" C body rotor and a mini lite type wheel also.

http://rotorpros.net/
Posted By: Den300

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/14/13 03:26 PM

Quote:

We have B-body wilwoods in our '67. Pretty easy to modify to fit with basic hand tools.



the 11" or te 12,19" disc set up?
Posted By: feets

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/14/13 09:05 PM

Get brakes built for the autobahn.

All it takes is a mill, a lathe, custom wheels, and a bit of creativity.

Attached picture 7887457-brakes.JPG
Posted By: OzHemi

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/14/13 09:07 PM

Quote:

Get brakes built for the autobahn.

[img]http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0711phr_1965_plymouth_belvedere/photo_11.html[/img]


All it takes is a mill, a lathe, custom wheels, and a bit of creativity.



I made my custom brakes with no mill or lathe..


(Yes on the custom wheels obviously though. )
Posted By: Den300

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/15/13 06:46 AM

Quote:

Get brakes built for the autobahn.

All it takes is a mill, a lathe, custom wheels, and a bit of creativity.



Hi Kevin, we talked about this before. It is not possible, unless you pay >2500$ tax per year.
The car has to look as close as possible as original and those brakes are to new
Stupid tax law for classic cars
Posted By: jyrki

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/15/13 08:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

We have B-body wilwoods in our '67. Pretty easy to modify to fit with basic hand tools.



the 11" or te 12,19" disc set up?



11" HD Wilwoods. They are definitely better than the drums, have been tested several times from 280 km/h. I believe they have been on the car for five or six years, the pads were changed last summer for the first time.
Posted By: dodgefarmer

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/15/13 03:45 PM

I have a complete disc brake front subframe with all the steering and braking components from a 1967 Imperial disc brake car. However the freight to Germany from Canada might cause some cardiac problems.

Randy
Posted By: Flo

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/15/13 04:19 PM

Hi,

I do not want this to go overboard. This will not become a race car. Most likely the stock 73 setup would be fine. The stuff is just a little hard to come by and I do not have the nerves to piece it together.

Looking for a well working complete kit which fits into 15" wheels.

Best regards
Florian
Posted By: feets

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/15/13 07:29 PM

Imperial stuff won't work. The bolt pattern and center register are much larger.

The earlier C-body disc brake hubs open up some interesting possibilities. Some of those had rotors that bolt to the back of the hubs using a 5 x 4.5" pattern. You can have a bit more freedom in the rotors used. It will open up some clearance between the back of the wheel spokes and the caliper. Just be sure the discs don't hit the tie rods.
Posted By: dodgefarmer

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/15/13 09:21 PM

Quote:

Imperial stuff won't work. The bolt pattern and center register are much larger.

The earlier C-body disc brake hubs open up some interesting possibilities. Some of those had rotors that bolt to the back of the hubs using a 5 x 4.5" pattern. You can have a bit more freedom in the rotors used. It will open up some clearance between the back of the wheel spokes and the caliper. Just be sure the discs don't hit the tie rods.



Can't the rotor and hub be changed out?

Randy
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/15/13 09:21 PM

'67 Imperial would have had the 4-piston Budd brakes.. Pretty much the last discbrake system you want to swap to.

If fabbing a brake system together from existing Mopar-parts is no option then you'll have to spend money.
But, personally I would be miffed if I had shelled out well over 13-1500,- Euros (for barely adequate rotors) and I would still have to figure out possible brake-bias problems.
Posted By: dodgefarmer

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/15/13 09:36 PM

Quote:

'67 Imperial would have had the 4-piston Budd brakes.. Pretty much the last discbrake system you want to swap to.

If fabbing a brake system together from existing Mopar-parts is no option then you'll have to spend money.
But, personally I would be miffed if I had shelled out well over 13-1500,- Euros (for barely adequate rotors) and I would still have to figure out possible brake-bias problems.




I agree, but wouldn't anything that is period correct to get the OP around the $2500.00 per yr. tax also be a 4 piston caliper system.

Randy
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/15/13 09:54 PM

As far as I'm aware the parts don't have to be exactly period correct. They just have to look that way.
Posted By: feets

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/15/13 09:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Imperial stuff won't work. The bolt pattern and center register are much larger.

The earlier C-body disc brake hubs open up some interesting possibilities. Some of those had rotors that bolt to the back of the hubs using a 5 x 4.5" pattern. You can have a bit more freedom in the rotors used. It will open up some clearance between the back of the wheel spokes and the caliper. Just be sure the discs don't hit the tie rods.



Can't the rotor and hub be changed out?

Randy



The hub will not fit the C-body spindles. The bearings are different sizes. It would require custom races or bearings and blow your $2500 tax savings.
Posted By: dodgefarmer

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/16/13 06:49 AM

So the Imperial disc brake spindle is unique?

Randy
Posted By: jyrki

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/16/13 07:09 AM

The wilwood kit is less than 700$, and you also need the brakehoses. Otherwise it required just adapterplatess between the spindle and caliber adapter, which I made out of 3mm aluminum sheet, also had to drill and tap one bolt hole to the spindle and that's baout it. I can take pics of it if interested, overall it was a one day job including the "design". Oh yes, and almost forgot it saved over 50 lbs over the '73 factory discs.
Posted By: Den300

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/16/13 03:31 PM

Quote:

The wilwood kit is less than 700$, and you also need the brakehoses. Otherwise it required just adapterplatess between the spindle and caliber adapter, which I made out of 3mm aluminum sheet, also had to drill and tap one bolt hole to the spindle and that's baout it. I can take pics of it if interested, overall it was a one day job including the "design". Oh yes, and almost forgot it saved over 50 lbs over the '73 factory discs.



THAT WOULD BE SWEET!
if it is no problem to adapt the small 11" inchers to c-body spindels,
it can not be a big problem to adapt the 12,19" big disc kits as well
to c-body spindles. IF they fit in the 15" wheels.?! should be the same procedure?
you just have to find a blind german technical inspector saying: they feel original
Posted By: feets

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/16/13 04:32 PM

Quote:

So the Imperial disc brake spindle is unique?

Randy




Everything on the Imperial front suspension is unique.


When I needed to replace my idler arm I had to go to Obsolete Parts and get one of their remans.
Posted By: jyrki

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/17/13 11:59 AM

Quote:

[
THAT WOULD BE SWEET!
if it is no problem to adapt the small 11" inchers to c-body spindels,
it can not be a big problem to adapt the 12,19" big disc kits as well
to c-body spindles. IF they fit in the 15" wheels.?! should be the same procedure?
you just have to find a blind german technical inspector saying: they feel original



I'll try to remember it tomorrow. I guess the attachment etc should be just the same for the 12.19" than to the smaller one.
Posted By: tallzag

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/17/13 08:14 PM

Especially if you need to run 15 inch wheels I really don't see the point in putting anything on it other than the stock 73 stuff. We had that set up on our 24 Hours of Lemons 67 Fury and never had a problem. It ran 10 races with that set up and we never had brake fade. It would out brake 90% of the cars on the track and we were about 4000 pounds with the big block in it. We got some very good race pads which obviously helped a lot.

We swapped on a set of 4 piston viper front calipers and saw almost no difference in ultimate braking power. The only reason we changed over was because the single piston caliper was cracking the pads after our first 24 hour race which scared us a little but if you are on the street that would not be a problem.
Posted By: jyrki

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/18/13 06:20 AM

I agree, the '73 set up is very good. I would say better than the 11" Wilwoods. However, it's heavy, and they really don't grow in the trees here in Europe.
Posted By: feets

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/18/13 06:55 PM

Pull the drums off your spindles. Grab some aftermarket rotors for an early 2000s Mercedes E-class. Try a diesel or smaller gas car. They should have 11-1/2" rotors 1-1/4" thick.
Open the center register of the Mercedes rotor and it should slip over the drum brake hub.
Build a bracket to mount a common single piston caliper and you're good to go.

I used 2005 S55 rotors to get a deeper offset. I had to pull the rotor back as far as possible to clear the pistons on the outside of the caliper.


Check with your local MB dealership. They might have a used rotor or two for you to test.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/18/13 08:41 PM

But you will loose the emergency brake with going that route. And zat is verboten!

At what period did Mercedes start using a 4.5" boltcircle on their cars (models) ?
Posted By: feets

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/18/13 09:58 PM

I was looking at front discs.

The MB bolt pattern is off by roughly 0.25 mm per side. They use a 14 mm bolt on the 211 cars. That's bigger than the 1/2" stud from Chrysler.


Works great.



Attached picture 7892288-belvederefrontwheel.jpg
Posted By: 72d100

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/21/13 06:47 PM

Quote:

Pull the drums off your spindles. Grab some aftermarket rotors for an early 2000s Mercedes E-class. Try a diesel or smaller gas car. They should have 11-1/2" rotors 1-1/4" thick.
Open the center register of the Mercedes rotor and it should slip over the drum brake hub.
Build a bracket to mount a common single piston caliper and you're good to go.

I used 2005 S55 rotors to get a deeper offset. I had to pull the rotor back as far as possible to clear the pistons on the outside of the caliper.


Check with your local MB dealership. They might have a used rotor or two for you to test.

you have any more pic of your setup? i need to attempt this on a 66c body and a truck
Posted By: OzHemi

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/21/13 09:47 PM

If you close your eyes to the car they are bolted onto...this is pretty much what feets did..




You need 18" wheels to clear... (or larger depeding on the wheel)




And my rear setup for the heck of it...matching rear calipers off of the same sorta Benz..

Posted By: Den300

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/22/13 09:12 AM

Another possibility for a semi-modern set up could be to use the Scarebird set up
but with different calipers. By this you get the 11.78” / 1.25” discs combined with either
the single piston 1999 Dodge Ram caliper, or the 2 pistons Dodge Ram Caliper or the
SSBC caliper with two pistons aluminum design. I just can´t find anything about the bore
diameter of the 2 piston OEM Dodge Ram caliper. The single piston has a bore diameter
of max 2.75”. The SSBC has two 2.126” pistons. So the piston area is 5.94 (single) vs. 7.1 (two piston).

Calipers from SSBC, seems to be a 1:1 replacement.

http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ssb-a186-1/overview/make/dodge
Posted By: 72d100

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/22/13 05:43 PM

Quote:

If you close your eyes to the car they are bolted onto...this is pretty much what feets did..




You need 18" wheels to clear... (or larger depeding on the wheel)




And my rear setup for the heck of it...matching rear calipers off of the same sorta Benz..



you guys are giving me bad ideas , now if i can just figure out the hub setup lol
Posted By: feets

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/22/13 08:19 PM

Quote:

now if i can just figure out the hub setup lol



Oz and I use the same brakes front and rear.
I stuck a pair of rotors on my lathe and cut off everything past the hub. That gave me a good set of hubs.

The Mercedes rotors needed the center registers opened up a wee bit. The bolt pattern is off by the tiniest margin. If the shank on your lugs doesn't stick out very far you might be able to slide the rotors over your lugs.
Posted By: 72d100

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/23/13 02:44 AM

Quote:

Quote:

now if i can just figure out the hub setup lol



Oz and I use the same brakes front and rear.
I stuck a pair of rotors on my lathe and cut off everything past the hub. That gave me a good set of hubs.

The Mercedes rotors needed the center registers opened up a wee bit. The bolt pattern is off by the tiniest margin. If the shank on your lugs doesn't stick out very far you might be able to slide the rotors over your lugs.

so machine the rotor off the hub part and use it for the new rotor to attach too
Posted By: 72d100

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/23/13 02:46 AM

basically something like this picture from a build im following

Attached picture 7897087-rotor.jpg
Posted By: feets

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 10/23/13 05:48 PM

Yes but not quite that thick.

You can also use a drum brake hub.

Be aware that if you use a multi-piston caliper you will need to make sure the spokes on your wheels do not hit the caliper. Oz had to arrange custom wheels for the hot rod.

If you're sticking with a sliding caliper the caliper clearance is far less critical.
Posted By: Den300

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 11/07/13 07:47 AM

@Jyrki: Any picture update for us?
Posted By: jyrki

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 11/08/13 12:47 PM

Have forgotten the whole thing everytime there is someone in the garage with a working digicamera..., but eventually....

Attached picture 7916355-vipväri4.jpg
Posted By: Den300

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 11/09/13 12:25 PM

Are you rebuilding the VIP?
Posted By: astjp2

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 11/10/13 05:36 AM

Why not use ford explorer brakes, dual piston calipers, 5x4.5 rotors with the right register and a simple bracket to mount them on the drum spindle. Vhalla done. Or you can look at the crown vic rotors, same deal 12.02 diameter, 2.85 center hole, dual piston calipers, and a simple bracket. Vhalla! Done

Attached picture 7918437-DSCN0114.JPG
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 11/10/13 03:26 PM

Quote:

Vhalla! Done



Sending him to Viking Paradise?
Posted By: jyrki

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 11/15/13 10:02 PM

Quote:

Are you rebuilding the VIP?



just a repaint and a vinyl roof! And going through the drivetrain.
Anyway, I finally go some pics of the B-body wilwoods installed on C-body drum brakes They don't tell much I guess, the adpters between the caliber adapter and the spindle is two 3mm aluminum plates, so 6 mm together. Don't remeber wether I reversed the caliber attchment or not, but maybe someone with B-body assembly can tell? Anyway, the installation was pretty stright forward once I figured it out, the biggest task was making the "shims" with basic hand tools.

Attached picture 7925337-wilwood2.jpg
Posted By: jyrki

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 11/15/13 10:04 PM

Another

Attached picture 7925342-wilwood1.jpg
Posted By: jyrki

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 11/15/13 10:05 PM

Third one

Attached picture 7925343-wilwood3.jpg
Posted By: 73EStroker

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 12/22/13 07:19 PM

Flo und Den
I had to log in here as I wanted to respond. I would suggest you email Doctor Diff (look up his website) as he has everything you need to give 4 wheel discs, including park brake, for a budget of around $1300ish. His front kit uses 11-3/4" C Body rotors and slider caliper brackets and the rear kit fits your differential housing and uses Toyota discs, adapters for Cobra Calipers and is a 10.7" disc which gives the correct pro portioning front to rear. These kits fit inside your 15" wheels. His name is Cass and he resides in Montana. Best to talk/email with him first though.
Good Luck
Posted By: Den300

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 12/24/13 12:15 PM

@73EStroker: I do know Cass as I already ordered some from him for my 65 Dodge Coronet
But I am sure I read somewhere that somebody asked him not long ago and at the moment
he offers nothing for C-Bodies. Apart from that he really has great solutions for brakes!
Posted By: Flo

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 01/03/14 05:46 PM

Also had talked to Cass, but no C-body stuff.
Thanks regardless
Flo
Posted By: fury413rb

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 01/10/14 10:29 PM

Quote:

I used to make a 13 inch kit for C-body cars. I stopped building the kit since it was really slow seller, but it shouldn't be too hard to duplicate if you want some good brakes.



What was the application/part number on those brake rotors?
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Disk Brakes on C-body - 01/11/14 12:37 AM

I started with a Mercedes rotor and then made some modifications.
© 2024 Moparts Forums