Moparts

Brake upgrade suggestions

Posted By: 72440CUDA

Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/18/13 08:58 PM

Well, I need new brakes, its time. Stockers aren't cutting it anymore. I pretty much have to stand on them to stop, I plan on bleeding them this weekend for the time being. So instad of replacing with stock replacement stuff I'm trying to research what is available out there now.

This is what I have currently:
Stock power brakes (master and booster replaced 10 years/maybe 10,000 miles ago)
Stock disks (11in?) up front, drums out back.
I just upped to 18" Mustang FR500 9" and 10" wide wheels with Nitto NT05 tires (275's and 295's). Plans are for a dependable driver with some Auto-x, maybe road course once a year.

If I redo the system, I want to replace the hard lines with stainless and possibly go with braided stainless flex line.

I've seen Wilwood has kits for front and back. I've seen people run Viper brakes, and I heard of possible SRT kit?

Trying to decide if I want to stay with drums out back or go with disks.

What is out there. What seems to be a popular choice? What to stay away from?

Any input is appreciated.

Posted By: MuuMuu101

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/18/13 09:48 PM

I haven't heard too many good things about SSBC. Wilwoods seem to be a fairly decent aftermarket kit. I think the green bearings in the rear require a little bit more maintenance or replacement than the standard tapered bearings. I believe DrDiff has a 13 and 14" brake kit utilizing Cobra calipers (he may be able to do the SRT8 Brembo calipers). The price isn't that bad at all. I believe he posted them on the differential for sale section, not his website. I say go discs all around.
Posted By: ahy

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 12:05 AM

From memory, 72 was the last year E that used the smaller spindles and 11" brakes. 73-74 used the large spindle (same as late A) and 11 3/4" brakes. JY spindles are rare but the larger later A/E spindles are re-popped and a good foundation for a front brake upgrade. I got mine from MP brakes.

I'd focus on fronts first. They do 70% of the work. A basic upgrade would be the later 11 3/4 setup. With parts store reman calipers and good pads I bet you would see meaningful improvement. Beyond that, since you have bigger wheels already, I'd go with one of the 13" kits. I have Bear and that's a good solid setup. The only downside is piston area is on the small side so it needs lots of brake pressure - the OE booster may be marginal. Also getting F/R proportioning dialed in with rear drums requires a prop valve and/or smaller diameter slave cylinders. If I did it again I'd talk to Dr Diff. He may have a 13" option that uses your current spindles. If you want discs on the rear Dr Diff or Bear have setups that can retain factory tapered bearings. Not all rear disc setups can do this - many need green ball bearings which are not well suited for extended spirited cornering.

A comment on brake lines. SS looks nice but is hard to seal and hard to home flare without a really high end tool. If you need to do any customization like adding a prop valve its a big chore with SS. I would (and did) go with mild steel. I doubt you will be driving it much in the salt. If you really want the corrosion resistance copper/nickel brake line is available and easy to work with. There are some posts and links on the handling page.

Braided flex lines do improve feel and performance a bit as they swell less under pressure. I got mine from Inline tube.
Posted By: RylisPro

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 12:42 AM

I'm in the same situation where I need better brakes too
I have seen Mr. Angry's Daytona in person last Friday and his Viper caliper and 14" SRT8 rotor combo look awesome!

I want the same kit for my car as I am getting 18's as well
My problem is I keep trying to contact Dr. Diff but he never answers

Anybody have the Dodge part numbers to the calipers and rotors?

Thanks
Posted By: 74_360_Cuda

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 12:53 AM

Quote:

My problem is I keep trying to contact Dr. Diff but he never answers



Sorry to ear that but he must be away or something because I have made several transaction with Cass and the communication was always top notch. One of the few that is taking the time to answer all my questions! Shipping was fast with good packaging, no bad surprise, I highly recommend!
Posted By: astjp2

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 12:54 AM

I went the cheap route and put on 2006 crown vic 12"rotors and calipers on the drum spindles. 100.00 for parts from local salvage yard, 200 for adapters. Another 100 for incidentals. Tim
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 12:55 AM

I have them and last I talked to Cass he quit making the kits because in 2 or 3 years he only sold like 3 sets partly because they needed such a unique wheel to clear. Bergmann Autocraft sells them now.

Attached picture 7857442-004.JPG
Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 01:03 AM

I'm not aware of any unanswered E-mails.

If you need to contact me, use doctordiff@gmail.com Be sure to spell out doctor. DrDiff is another guy.

In addition, if you use my old E-mail address, I will not receive the message.

I'm currently out of 14.25"/Viper caliper brackets, but I'm having a few more made.
Posted By: RylisPro

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 01:12 AM

I kept calling your phone number but no one answered
Sent you an email

I know to get the Gen 3 viper calipers but which year SRT8 rotors?

I am about to head to my local Dodge parts dealer now

thanks
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 01:42 AM

The factory 11.75 setup is a good upgrade. If you use the correct master cylinder and good pads then it should handle what you need. For track duty it is probably a good idea to step up to a 13 inch kit. DoctorDiff or Baer are about the only choices that I know of these days.

I covered all of this in detail in my B-body book. I know that you have an E-body, but it is all the same under the sheetmetal.
Posted By: RylisPro

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 03:13 AM

Quote:

I have them and last I talked to Cass he quit making the kits because in 2 or 3 years he only sold like 3 sets partly because they needed such a unique wheel to clear. Bergmann Autocraft sells them now.


Hey 72Swinger what wheels will you be using?
I got the rotors, damn they are heavy & beefy!
calipers are on order should get them next week
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 04:54 AM

Mine didnt fit, I had to turn the brake kit into a 13.98" kit AND run a spacer. The offset of the SRT rotors make them very wheel un-friendly.
Posted By: OzHemi

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 04:13 PM

If you want to run a certain wheel, I would pick that and then build the brake setup to fit...like I did, not like building the brakes and trying to find a wheel to fit your brakes, like Feets did.

(both using the AMG 360mm rotor/8 piston Brembo setups)
Posted By: Samaleshi

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 04:34 PM

Maybe it's because I got rid of my last Mopar and bought an AMC, but, I used 12.5" Crown Vic Police front brakes on my Rambler. Slip on rotors and the Ford 2 piston caliper. They're awesome, and there's plenty to choose from at your local picknpull if you're really feelin' thrifty. Minimum of a 16" wheel required, but the '97-02's had RWD offset. Drum brakes are easier to convert because you can re-use the hub. I've seen folks machine down the uni-cast rotor/hub assembly, but it looks like a lot of work when you should be able to get drum hubs for cheap. It can be done for less than $300 if you're careful.
Posted By: feets

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 04:34 PM

My AMG brake upgrade required wheels with deeper mounting pads. That pushed the spokes out far enough to clear the calipers.
Posted By: 72440CUDA

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 06:03 PM

All good info here guys, I appreciate it . I forgot about the Dr. Diff kit. I guess I'm leaning more toward a 13" front rotor. These small factory style brakes behind 18" wheels just look inadequate in my opinion

I'm running knockoff 18X9 Mustang wheels upfront with a 1" spacer, and 3/8" spacer out back for the 18X10s. Leaf springs have been relocated 3/4". Wheels fit darn near perfect right now. I'm thinking with that set up, I should be able to fit just about any common set up.

I've heard about the green bearing issue, so I'm thinking staying with the factory tapered. I have some more research and reading up to do .
Posted By: Red Stripe

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 10:03 PM

I run Baers 13" T4 front and 11.7" Ironsport rear (used on the tapered bearings) along with hydroboost and the car stops excellent. I'd highly recommend them.

Only thing is to check the caliper clearance. The T4 is a big caliper, mine barely fit.
Posted By: OzHemi

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/19/13 10:58 PM

Quote:

My AMG brake upgrade required wheels with deeper mounting pads. That pushed the spokes out far enough to clear the calipers.



The shape of the spokes of course come into play...the flatter the wheel face is, the less mounting pad height you need.

Attached picture 7858593-front.jpg
Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/20/13 03:41 AM

I just finished a new, reasonably priced 13" Brembo style front disc brake kit that matches my 11.7" rear kit nicely. It includes all new pars and runs $1250, complete.
Posted By: RylisPro

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/20/13 04:19 AM

Quote:

I just finished a new, reasonably priced 13" Brembo style front disc brake kit that matches my 11.7" rear kit nicely. It includes all new pars and runs $1250, complete.


Hey Cass I sent you an email, I'm very interested
Posted By: 72440CUDA

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/20/13 04:47 AM

Quote:


I just finished a new, reasonably priced 13" Brembo style front disc brake kit that matches my 11.7" rear kit nicely. It includes all new pars and runs $1250, complete



You sir have peaked my interest. Any pics or other info you can provide? I was already eyeballing the rear 11.7" kit. Any specific front spindle/knuckle or hub required? I noticed your Viper kit required the drum knuckle. I'm not sure if I have a 72 or 73 spindle (disk). If I remember, there was a way to identify them by the brake dust shield? Mine has the "wrinkle", not smooth

So far these are my choices for the front:
11.75" rotor with Viper caliper kit (guessing around $800-$900 complete). Could go back to a 15" rim if desired?
Baer 13" Track 4 system ($1600)
Dr. Diff 13" Brembo kit ($1250)
Wilwood search showed only an 11" rotor Dynalit Pro kit as a "bolt on" ($800-$900) I don't think I need a $3000 14" kit

I'm just starting to get familiar with what is available and comparing.

Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/20/13 07:40 AM

E-mail me and I will send you some pictures.

doctordiff@gmail.com
Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/20/13 05:47 PM

It would be interesting to see some testing results (examples: 70-0 mph, 100-0 mph) on the differences in front brakes all from the same one car and same tires, perhaps same driver(s), and relatively same weather/temperatures.. and same testing location:

Front OE drums
Front OE caliper and 10.8" OE disc
Front Wilwood caliper and 11" Wilwood disc (their "zero/stock offset" kit)
Front OE caliper and 11.8" x 1" OE disc
Front Wilwood caliper and 11.8" x 1" OE cop-car disc (there are two different Wilwood calipers that can be tested for this option)
Front Viper 1st-gen caliper and 11.8" x 1" OE cop-car disc
Front Viper 1st-gen caliper and 11.8" x 1.25" C-body OE disc
(any other combos from this "basic" category?)

Then... the larger front disc kits... 12", 13", 14", etc with various calipers.

The rear brakes would have to remain the same for these tests... (example: all small non-finned drums or large finned drums)

Adjustable proportioning valve optional, but perhaps preferable in the testing.. as long as its used from the beginning as may be needed.

Master cylinder could be upgraded (from the beginning) to an aluminum light-weight unit.

OK... I volunteer my car (current OE power front disc 10.8" and small rear non-finned drums; aluminum master cylinder). All I'd need are the parts, at least going from 10.8" disc to 11.8" cop car disc, etc.

PS... I now have brand new BFG T/As.. 255-60-15 front, 275-60-15 rear on my 15x8 mini-lite rims. Eventual "race-orientated" performance tires will be put onto the car on some other rims (I have 16x10 race rims aside).



Attached picture 7859495-DSC08414.jpg
Posted By: feets

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/20/13 07:48 PM

I had the 11.75" front discs and 11.5" rear discs on the hot rod before upgrading to the AMG package.

The biggest difference I found was being able to control the brakes on the edge of lock up. The 14.2" fronts and 13.5" rear rotors just feel better under the pedal.

Tom made a good video of the before and after on his Dakota. There was a massive difference.

I haven't seen a comparison of similar sized packages and don't expect an appreciable difference until you start cooking the rotors.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/20/13 09:06 PM

Quote:

I had the 11.75" front discs and 11.5" rear discs on the hot rod before upgrading to the AMG package.

The biggest difference I found was being able to control the brakes on the edge of lock up. The 14.2" fronts and 13.5" rear rotors just feel better under the pedal.

Tom made a good video of the before and after on his Dakota. There was a massive difference.

I haven't seen a comparison of similar sized packages and don't expect an appreciable difference until you start cooking the rotors.

that is what I would describe mine as acting too. The performance of my setup is just awesome even with a manual mc. I have yet to lock up the fronts no matter how hard I stand on them but at the same time the car stops awesome.
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/21/13 12:32 AM

Quote:

I had the 11.75" front discs and 11.5" rear discs on the hot rod before upgrading to the AMG package.

The biggest difference I found was being able to control the brakes on the edge of lock up. The 14.2" fronts and 13.5" rear rotors just feel better under the pedal.

Tom made a good video of the before and after on his Dakota. There was a massive difference.

I haven't seen a comparison of similar sized packages and don't expect an appreciable difference until you start cooking the rotors.



again, here is said Video.

stock brakes:

11" rotor up front
single piston floating caliper
rear drums 9" or 10" I don't remember off the top of my head.


upgraded to:

13" viper rotors all the way around
Gen 1&2 Viper 4-piston Brembo calipers.

factory RWAL remained in place to prevent premature rear wheel lock up.


under stock brakes I had 1 "good" stop...if you can call it good. The brakes would not lock up one wheel when they were cold. RWAL never activated. stops 2-5 were downright scarey. Glad this was a farm road through the middle of a corn field with no side streets or houses. Brake fade was massive, and stopping distances increased exponentially. by the end, I had almost no brake pedal, it was VERY soft, went to the floor, and the truck just didn't want to stop.

This is on stock wheels/tires. (note, stock brakes were too weak to lock up stock wheel/tire combo--other than the overheated rear drum acting funny and locking up unpredictably)


After the upgrade, stops were consistent and predictable. I had one momentary lock-up of front wheels, but otherwise, was able to feel the edge of lock-up and able to avoid actually locking the fronts. Pedal never faded, heat soak never set in.


http://youtu.be/rw0O7Hknzhg
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/21/13 12:39 AM

By the way, I sold the front Gen 1/2 viper brakes and have since upgraded to Gen 3 viper brakes... 14" rotors, and a larger Brembo 4-piston caliper.




but...still not as big as Kevin's 8-pot Merc's brakes






During mock-up:





and final installed:



Posted By: ahy

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/21/13 12:44 AM

Great demo!
Posted By: OzHemi

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/21/13 03:18 AM

Quote:

By the way, I sold the front Gen 1/2 viper brakes and have since upgraded to Gen 3 viper brakes... 14" rotors, and a larger Brembo 4-piston caliper.




but...still not as big as Kevin's 8-pot Merc's brakes






(I'll edit with pics later...Photobucket is down for mx at the moment )



I run the same AMG brakes, but on my little Torana..

Attached picture 7860080-2013-09-1915.33.33.jpg
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/21/13 10:46 AM

Pics updated
Posted By: PHJ426

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/23/13 03:56 AM

I think you can find a nice 11.75" First Gen Kit complete on the Moparts classifieds....cheap just reduced the price, will not last long.
Posted By: 72440CUDA

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/24/13 10:56 PM

Anybody have thoughts on Hydroboost? Just thinking about it just in case it turns out my vacuum booster is leaking internally... might be worth it? Anybody have any experience with this? Opinions: over-kill or good idea while everything is apart?

I’m thinking about how to test my vacuum booster for the mean time. Somehow adapt a vacuum pump with gauge, pump it down and see if the gauge stays constant

Or delete the power brake set up and run a manual master?

I think I'm going to end up running Dr. Diff's 13" front kit and rear Cobra kit. Seems to be the best bang for the buck deal that I've found so far. I just want to verify what spindles I have to make sure I get the correct brackets.
Posted By: ahy

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/25/13 02:12 AM

For the booster... if the only problem is a leak, reman is available for reasonable cost from your parts store or Rock Auto.

I would be concerned about brake pressure as well. The stock 9" single diaphragm I have is marginal on pressure with the Bear front setup. More pressure would be beneficial. I'd ask Dr Diff what he recommends in terms of booster and MC diameter. He should know with his system.

If more pressure is needed dual diaphragm 8" boosters are available (MP brakes for example) and hydroboost.

There is quite a cost difference. A reman OE booster is +/-$100, dual diaphram and matching master +/- 300 and hydroboost new with all the fixings is +/- 1,000. Hydro boost gives the best pressure and takes up much less space.

I'll probably go hydroboost for the pressure and packaging advantages... its just not at the top of my list since the brakes work quite well as is with the reman OE booster.
Posted By: brads70

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/25/13 12:51 PM

Quote:

Anybody have thoughts on Hydroboost? Just thinking about it just in case it turns out my vacuum booster is leaking internally... might be worth it? Anybody have any experience with this? Opinions: over-kill or good idea while everything is apart?

I’m thinking about how to test my vacuum booster for the mean time. Somehow adapt a vacuum pump with gauge, pump it down and see if the gauge stays constant

Or delete the power brake set up and run a manual master?

I think I'm going to end up running Dr. Diff's 13" front kit and rear Cobra kit. Seems to be the best bang for the buck deal that I've found so far. I just want to verify what spindles I have to make sure I get the correct brackets.



I'm planning on gearing up a hydroboost set up , maybe over the winter. I got parts off a astro van and just need to machine up a firewall adapter plate and get the plumbing sorted out. Got $50 into it so far....?
Posted By: ahy

Re: Brake upgrade suggestions - 09/28/13 03:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Anybody have thoughts on Hydroboost? Just thinking about it just in case it turns out my vacuum booster is leaking internally... might be worth it? Anybody have any experience with this? Opinions: over-kill or good idea while everything is apart?

I’m thinking about how to test my vacuum booster for the mean time. Somehow adapt a vacuum pump with gauge, pump it down and see if the gauge stays constant

Or delete the power brake set up and run a manual master?

I think I'm going to end up running Dr. Diff's 13" front kit and rear Cobra kit. Seems to be the best bang for the buck deal that I've found so far. I just want to verify what spindles I have to make sure I get the correct brackets.



I'm planning on gearing up a hydroboost set up , maybe over the winter. I got parts off a astro van and just need to machine up a firewall adapter plate and get the plumbing sorted out. Got $50 into it so far....?



I'd love to see the build up for this. Hope you post it.
© 2024 Moparts Forums