Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar

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I have an old Plymouth in my garage. But if I wanted something else, I'd consider something other than a mustang. What's with all the mustang fan-boy, boy racer trolls on this site ?

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I have an old Plymouth in my garage. But if I wanted something else, I'd consider something other than a mustang. What's with all the mustang fan-boy, boy racer trolls on this site ?

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The Mustang is by far the best way to go. I hit the track at least twice per month, I'm an instructor with NASA and an automotive journalist which means I get to drive just about everything under the sun. Bang for the buck the Mustang cannot be beat. I purchased a new 2013 base model GT last year with the track pack and the Recaro's. It's been bullet proof and has the capacity in stock form to compete with much higher dollar cars.

Now... if you want to step your game up even more, look at a Camaro SS with the 1LE package. That will out handle the Mustang as it has better suspension and much wider meat all around. However it will run about 5-6k more.

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The Mustang is by far the best way to go. I hit the track at least twice per month, I'm an instructor with NASA and an automotive journalist which means I get to drive just about everything under the sun. Bang for the buck the Mustang cannot be beat. I purchased a new 2013 base model GT last year with the track pack and the Recaro's. It's been bullet proof and has the capacity in stock form to compete with much higher dollar cars.

Now... if you want to step your game up even more, look at a Camaro SS with the 1LE package. That will out handle the Mustang as it has better suspension and much wider meat all around. However it will run about 5-6k more.

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Its hard to compete for about $30k the new Mustang GT is a hell of an all around car. The Recaro Seat and Big Brake packages up it to just under $40k but you're still getting mucho bang for the buck. If you do winter snow driving, I'd just stay with the regular brakes. (18" vs 19" wheels).

The next step up like Mike says is the 1LE Camaro. But like other say visibility is the worst of the Big Three (yes, I've been in all 3, driven all but the Camaro).

And if you judge these cars by road course track times, you'll see the Challenger trailing these, even in SRT trim.

I keep remembering a recent Hot Rod Magazine where Mark Steilow placed is most recent 1G camaro against a new one and the point of the article is how much $$$$$$ it would take to make the 1G perform like the 5G and it was like $200k.

That's a hell of an investment. Mopar does have a better starting point than the GM, but at what point do you say that's close enough? How much do you want your old car to act like a new car? A/C? Power everything? EFI?

The best thing that the old cars have is just the rawness they have. It's just the feeling you get when sit behind the wheel and how simple it is and how easy it is to get into trouble with no electronic aids.

One thing that stops me from getting a modern pony car is the fact that I would be driving it daily. There comes a time when you forget about what you're driving as you're doing 65 and a dirty construction truck ends up in front of you and you just want to get out from behind him and his crap peppering you. You end up bored behind the wheel and the car you bought to "treat" yourself on the weekends becomes another appliance. A friend of mine drove his blown, nitrous fed 98 Viper GTS so much he got bored with it (and sold it).

So I keep my old Mopar, play with it as much as possible. Realize that it will never perform as well as a new car (which only get better year after year) but the smiles it consistently puts on my face when I choose to drive it makes it all worth it.

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One thing that stops me from getting a modern pony car is the fact that I would be driving it daily. There comes a time when you forget about what you're driving as you're doing 65 and a dirty construction truck ends up in front of you and you just want to get out from behind him and his crap peppering you. You end up bored behind the wheel and the car you bought to "treat" yourself on the weekends becomes another appliance. A friend of mine drove his blown, nitrous fed 98 Viper GTS so much he got bored with it (and sold it).

So I keep my old Mopar, play with it as much as possible. Realize that it will never perform as well as a new car (which only get better year after year) but the smiles it consistently puts on my face when I choose to drive it makes it all worth it.

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A fairly good point I might add. I was actually thinking about doing this. Trading in my 2011 Scion tC for a 2013 Challenger R/T but I wasn't sure if I wanted to deal with the payments and the loss of gas mileage. How much more fun could you have in a Challenger when your stuck in traffic 90% of your commute? It would be just as much as an appliance as my tC. I've also debated selling my tC and getting a nicely done up older car as a Daily Driver. I'm sure that would ruffle some feathers with the family.

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They are giving that car away well almost. How come you havent bought that Challenger yet?

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My car is only worth about $13,500 on a trade in. It's got a lot of scratches, scrapes, and rock chips. Even on the interior (Scions have poor quality control). So that means I still owe about $12,000 on that Challenger. A 3 year loan at 0% APR would put me at a payment about $340/month which is about 60% of my monthly pay check depending on how much I work. Plus I'll be paying more for gas and stuff. I also thought about trying to put some more cash down but having a 3 year loan on like $5-7k seems odd to me even though the payment would be $150-210/month. I've got the money to pay it all in cash. Idk, it doesn't completely make sense to me to trade in my somewhat fuel efficient daily driver for a fun car that's still going to be stuck in traffic. Granted, I've never sat in a Challenger and don't know how comfy it is or can be. The Scion can get uncomfortable at times. Plus the Challenger is a bigger car. Although I would then own all mopars... So many factors...

I don't mean to steal the thread from the OP. Mustangs and old cars onwards! I'll just make a thread in the general section.

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The Mustang is by far the best way to go. I hit the track at least twice per month, I'm an instructor with NASA and an automotive journalist which means I get to drive just about everything under the sun. Bang for the buck the Mustang cannot be beat. I purchased a new 2013 base model GT last year with the track pack and the Recaro's. It's been bullet proof and has the capacity in stock form to compete with much higher dollar cars.

Now... if you want to step your game up even more, look at a Camaro SS with the 1LE package. That will out handle the Mustang as it has better suspension and much wider meat all around. However it will run about 5-6k more.

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The Mustang is by far the best way to go. I hit the track at least twice per month, I'm an instructor with NASA and an automotive journalist which means I get to drive just about everything under the sun. Bang for the buck the Mustang cannot be beat. I purchased a new 2013 base model GT last year with the track pack and the Recaro's. It's been bullet proof and has the capacity in stock form to compete with much higher dollar cars.

Now... if you want to step your game up even more, look at a Camaro SS with the 1LE package. That will out handle the Mustang as it has better suspension and much wider meat all around. However it will run about 5-6k more.

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Also keep in mind that before I purchased that car I contemplated taking that money and putting it into the Charger. 6.4 HEMI, new tranny, suspension, etc... etc. At days end though, I'd still have a beautiful looking car that was 18-feet long, weighed almost 4,000 lbs and still DIDN'T handle like a slot car. Plus, I'd be chasing gremlins and trouble shooting. I'm too old for that. Now, I just want to have fun.

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I agree Mike, and you are fortunate to be able have both old and new. My main point was if Dodge had a car with say, 110" wheelbase, that weighed in at even 3500 lbs the Mustang would look way less appealing. Too bad it doesnt and the talk of a "Cuda" has been quiet.

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My track pack mustang is white. I would like to thank those that don't approve of the mustang for restraining them selves and everybody else for a enlightening discussion. My problem is I like too many things. I like cars that handle and I like to drag race. Throw in a job that keeps me from home weeks at a time and it leaves you no option but to buy some of your toys. Some auto crossing is on my bucket list so the mustang was a no brainer for me. If you are thinking about going that way, go test drive one and form your own opinion.

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Did someone say test drive? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5mHPo2yDG8

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I don't have to be the fastest or best at anything,
just happy with what I have and making the most of it

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Then you are wise beyond your years.

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Around here Mustangs quite often have a Domino's Pizza signs on them. Anyone can own one, not everyone can own a classic Mopar, and even fewer that handle decent.
My car will never handle like a new Vette or Viper but for me the fun is trying and working with what you have. Nothing makes me grin more than coming up behind a BMW, Vette etc on a hwy on ramp or cloverleaf and filling his rear view mirror with a Dodge grill. Then having him accelerate and keep checking his mirror every 2 seconds and can't believe I'm still there!

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Honestly, lap times are somewhat inconsequential here, but here's my take on the subject. Our old cars are wonderful machines. They have styling that can't be matched, can be made to perform wonderfully with enough time, talent and money, and at days end will always make you feel good. However, think about what goes into making that happen. Think about the countless hours of trouble-shooting problems and chasing ghosts like squeaks, rattles, vibrations and electrical issues. People get frustrated, lose and then regain interest, but ultimately, everybody is still ALWAYS, in some way wrenching on their cars.

Now please don't misunderstand me, this is NOT a bad thing as it's part of the hobby, and God knows I've been down and continue to go down that road on a daily basis with my cars because I love them. HOWEVER, and this is dependent on your individual needs, you have to decide on WHAT you want to do with your car, and WHY you want to do it.

I'm very fortunate as my job allows me to get behind the wheel of some the best cars out there, both new and old ranging from Bugatti Veyron's to the wickedest pro-touring cars on the planet. This has taught me a couple of things:

1. You can have the best suspension, engine, and build that money can buy. But if YOU can't drive it, you're ass out. That means SEAT TIME, SEAT TIME, SEAT TIME and MORE SEAT TIME. There are guys on this forum like Dan, Marty, Steve and Tony to name a few, that could probably kill 85% of track day guys whilst driving a V6 Honda Accord.

2. MONEY: I've got a TON of cash wrapped up in both my cars (Charger/Daytona). Yet I went out and purchased a new Mustang for just over $30k and it will kill them both. Tack on some real suspension, wheels and tires and now, for under $40K I've got a car that will run with the best of the best, regardless of the manufacturers. I've got 13 track days on that car since May with the only maintenance being fluid, tire and brake pad changes. That's it - not one single issue, not a single worry.

3. Piece of mind. I don't worry about my Mustang. I bought it as a track rat / semi-daily driver. Now, if I crash it at the track will that suck? Yep... but not as bad as stuffing the Charger or Daytona into the wall.

Also keep in mind that before I purchased that car I contemplated taking that money and putting it into the Charger. 6.4 HEMI, new tranny, suspension, etc... etc. At days end though, I'd still have a beautiful looking car that was 18-feet long, weighed almost 4,000 lbs and still DIDN'T handle like a slot car. Plus, I'd be chasing gremlins and trouble shooting. I'm too old for that. Now, I just want to have fun.

Charger / Daytona = Hot Rods and will keep forever
Mustang = Track Car / semi-disposable

Different cars for different needs.

Hope this helps.

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If you can afford it, have both. The modern cars are really pretty good now. I have a pro street Hemi demon with EFI and gear vendors overdrive, Alterkation frame with power rack steering and it's quite nice compared to most of the old Mopars I've had. But, I get as much enjoyment or more from my 2012 GT500. If most had driven the modern mustangs, Challenger or Camaro, you'd have to agree they are light years better in most categories then the cars from the 70's. The older cars only seem to have the edge in the "cool" factor. A more rare modern care like a GT500, Boss, SRT-8 or ZL-1 come close in the "cool" factor. While my GT500 does attract more attention than a standard 5.0 would, it's nowhere near the attention the Demon gets. If I had to get rid of one of them, it would be extremely hard, but I'd ditch the Demon before the GT500.

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The real answer for me would be...

Mustangs are tiny... small no room inside..I dont think our puppy would be confortable in the reat seat...,and I cant even squeeze my legs in the front seat...
Was that a better idea?

Buy a real car... Challenger SRT 392...

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That spin comment might be a little unfair, people's legs / body shapes are not defined by a single measurement. If he says it doesn't fit him, it doesn't fit him. Of course you could have actually have asked him to be clrear has he sat in both recently, wearing similar clothes, I guess,

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Most mass produced vehicles are designed to fit the 95th percentile. That means it fits 95% of the population out there. If you don't fit, you are probably in the 5%.

Of course, depending on the location it was designed in, the 95% might be different. A case in point, the original, designed in Japan, vehicles didn't fit taller Americans all that well. They eventually fixed that.

If you look at those Buick commercials with Shaq sitting in there you see he's outside the 95%.

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I've seen Pimp My Ride when I was younger and they always had to modify the cars for him to fit in it. So you'll never know.

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As I've watched this thread, I can add that my cool T/a is still one of the most popular "pony cars" at shows and any autx/road course events. I love driving it.. handles great, etc.

Last night (Fri) I went to a local show ~500 cars (w/o my T/A) and I looked over ~5 new Boss 302 cars.. very impressiven (I prefer the SC500 supercharged model). I asked and one owner allowed me to sit in his Recaro seat.. very good bolster!.. (similar to my seats in my Chally). Of interest, the owner told me that he paid ~$40k; and... when you buy a new one Ford offers to take you on road race tracks to "teach you how to drive your new Boss 302 car...".. that's cool! Ford is really catering to the pony car market better than any other mfgr. I hope to actually "compete" against these new Boss 302 cars at some local road race tracks (when I eventually have better sticky tires)... I believe that I could stay with them (excluding the highest speed tracks where O/D becomes required), maybe do better than a few.... but as we all know.. the "nut behind the wheel" will make the most difference.

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OK seriously, Ford has a great offering in the car in many regards, Mopar, are you paying attention?

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If you don't take the class, do you have to give the car back?

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Guys - You're over thinking this.

Here's a quick breakdown.

- Mustang GT = Cheap fun. Drop some coin on a good suspension set-up wheels and tires and for under $40K you've got a great car with usable back seats for smaller passengers. I'm 6'4" / 250 and I fit fine up front. Back seat is not an option.

- Camaro SS ILE = Will out handle a new track pack Mustang GT on the track. Straight line speed is about even. Back seat almost unusable. Headroom it tight if you're over 6'1" and visibility is awful regardless of size. They can be had for around $38-41K depending on your negotiating skills. These cars need nothing in handling department except a competent driver.

- Challenger SRT8: This is NOT a track car. It's too big and heavy with WAY to little tire underneath it. However, as open road GT car it's great. Wonderful seats, big power and fast, plus a usable back seat and trunk. However those big rear b-pillars hurt visibility. It's also BIG money compared to the other 2.

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The Mopar crowd is still trying to figure out why the Mustang has surpassed Chrysler's offering in any and every way, they haven't even begun to assess the omnipotence the Camaro can deliver...

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Are we about done with the Mustangs awesomeness discussion? There are a ton of forums that support the Mustywang group lol....

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Who really wants to sit around all day to make maybe 5 or so 10 second passes? It's fun for a while but it got old for me anyway.

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If you start with a 4000 lb car you're shooting yourself in the foot before the first nickel is spent....

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Just because something is built in the 70's doesnt mean it automatically cant handle, c'mon.

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Agreed. Despite the advancements in technology, there are still only four way to spring a car; coil, leaf, torsion, or air. Has been that way for the last 100 years. Not sure when it will change.

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if your going to do it with a classic car, then you need to start from the ground up. there are still plenty of a bodies and e bodies available for under 10k, that sure need some paint and body work, but at least you have somewhere to start. if your doing a road race car your not going period correct with alot of high dollar resto part either. there is tons of stuff that can be built, fixed, modded, whatever to look good for a fraction of the cost of reproduction items. now onto the suspension. so even if you drop 5k-8k on suspension pcs and wheels and tire, another 2k on brakes your your still going to be cheaper than a 35k stang.

you may not have ac or some of the new comforts but you'll have an awesome car that you can drive and be proud of. now throw in another 10k to get you on par with the mustang in cost and you can ac, a nice stereo, etc.

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I'm going with the old Mopar. Especially 70-71 E-body, I can do most of the work myself, I can upgrade at my own pace, and anyway that Mustang is ugly...isn't this a Mopar site?

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The Mustang is by far the best way to go. I hit the track at least twice per month, I'm an instructor with NASA and an automotive journalist which means I get to drive just about everything under the sun. Bang for the buck the Mustang cannot be beat. I purchased a new 2013 base model GT last year with the track pack and the Recaro's. It's been bullet proof and has the capacity in stock form to compete with much higher dollar cars.

Now... if you want to step your game up even more, look at a Camaro SS with the 1LE package. That will out handle the Mustang as it has better suspension and much wider meat all around. However it will run about 5-6k more.

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Wow, how many posts do you need to have before you can make an opinion?

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How about a Mustang in a Mopar Hi Impact color.......Got To Have It Green.....

That will get attention....

Sorry Mitch I couldn't resist.

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It appears many people here fear not being distinguishable at a track event maybe a cruise night or car show.

I would prefer my car to blend in, stealthy sleeper like in appearance. The preferred method of being distinguished is in the performance of the driver and machine.

It is far better in my mind to blend in and surprise the competition than to stick out and not show.

Can some older distinguishable cars with a great driver outperform a new Mustang, Camaro, Vette, GTR, Porsche ot Miata with a decent driver probably. This is the exception and not the norm.......

btw......there are a multitude of performance suspension parts for the new cars that dwarfs the offerings for the old Mopars....

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btw......there are a multitude of performance suspension parts for the new cars that dwarfs the offerings for the old Mopars....

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btw......there are a multitude of performance suspension parts for the new cars that dwarfs the offerings for the old Mopars....

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So if you could only have one (limited garage space) would you try and get an old Mopar B/E body to handle or just sell it and get a newer Mustang 2011 - 2014 either a Boss 302, Roush Stage 3, Shelby, Saleen etc etc........

If I wanted to go Vintage Racing which is very cool, "except when some organizers get carried away with originality rules" and some of the owners are not exactly user friendly.
a 70-74 E Body would be my platform. otherwise Ill stick to my late model Mustang

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Right now i'm in the same boat as many here and just dont have the time or space or means to build a supercar, and would just go out and buy a new car if i could, but there are just too many things about the new stuff i just cant get past, and well... i still happen to have an absolutely perfect starting point sitting in the driveway right now...

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I just can't justify buying a new car and losing money on the car the minute I drive it off the lot, which is why I'll probably never own a new car, which is also why I went out and got a 71 roadrunner and sunk 20k into with all the best aftermarket upgrades, and it'll be worth double that when I'm finished

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A popular way to remove weight in the E body drag cars was to cut the crash beam out of the door.

I had a set in a Challenger from the old US30 dragstrip days. Those doors with no crash beam , window glass and regulator were light weight.

In a car that has no roll cage installed I would not recommend cutting the crash beam out

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Boss 302 Mustang vs. Challenger

Too funny.

I remember the 1970 Boss 302 Mustang sent the 1970 T/A Challenger home with it's tails between it's legs during the 1970 Trans Am series...Back then the sales guys at Ford had it right in making ALL the Boss 302 Mustangs sold to the public manual transmissions...like they should be.

Now we're comparing the 2 again with the obvious winner on the road course track being the Boss 302 Mustang....nothing has changed.

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70 - 74 Challengers and Cuda's are cool......typical 440 powered Challengers of the era typically weigh in at 3800 pounds. Add a Dana 60 and it goes up. Stripping all of the interior/heater box/wipers is not going to take 800 pounds out of the car.

How many days are you leaving the unibody in an acid bath for?

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I assume you're addressing my post?

If so, you missed the part where i said base model NO options. I didn't bother comparing an SRT8 to a 70 Hemi Challenger... faaaaar too many variables.

My 70 Challenger weighed pretty much exactly its stated 3006lb shipping weight. Before the 'E-bodies all weigh 2-tons' crowd chime in... well, i had a local circle track racer bring over some pricey scales, spent some time and some money and well... turns out all along i was right. these cars CAN weigh very little. A stripped out base 70 Barracuda would be even lighter. Compare that to the only figure i could find for a '2013 base model Challenger'... 3835 (or whatever i posted above, i forget), pounds. 6cyl car vs 6cyl car... no options on either. Thats over 800lbs. Now, add the powertrain, suspension, all the go-fast stuff to both cars and yeah... 70's got a BIG edge here. This is also assuming you are serious about performance and not just drive-in bragging... and skip the iron big block for an aluminum small block or modern engine swap. A Dana 60 has no more place on a car like this than a Dana 70 dually.

Remember, we're talking about building a competitive car (acceleration, braking, handling, etc.) out ov an old muscle car... not just building an old muscle car.

Further, you could pick an even lighter car... an early (67-71) A-body. You give up some tire size capacity, but then you've cut another 200-300lbs. 67-9 Camaros, 67-70 fastbacks, Javelin/AMX's... all lighter still than those E-bodies, yet still more 'muscular' than an A-body if thats a dealbreaker.

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My point is if you build the car with modern components and modern comforts, your weight won't be that far off the new mustangs.

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Now this is a lightweight A Body....that is sure to put all these new cars in its place......

http://stlouis.craigslist.org/cto/4080488334.html

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Good luck cutting that much weight. My Dart has a glass hood and front valance and after it gets a gen III swap I'm hoping I'll be under 3300 lbs with me in it. I weigh 180 and the car has no heater either. An E body would need glass doors,fenders, hood and bumpers as well as lexan. Good luck.

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Having a 71 Challenger with a 440, auto and Dana 60 (Yeah its a heavy rear end but its what was in the car when I bought it in 1988...) with no heater box, wipers and the only lightweight parts is a lift off fiberglass 6 pack hood and 6 point cage in mild steel is still a heavy package. I still had the back seat and a pair of factory buckets and door panels. No creature comforts like a radio and light weight 10.5" A body discs and no power booster. The 440 had an aluminum intake and a big Holley carb.

I am definitely interested in how your build works out because I have appeared to make my car a fat pig compared your estimated weights. Not really sure where I went wrong. I know its not 3800# but I do know its not close to 3200 by a country mile. This video is from when the car had a 440 with heavy TRW pistons 6 pack rods and iron 915 heads from a long time ago...probably when some of you were still in diapers

But then again who am I just some dreamer that types away on Moparts...... :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d94GGvS83es

The burnout at the 6:00 mark is one of my favorites.

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Good luck on your project I will be watching as you post updates. BTW when you weighed your car how much of it was stripped out, what engine and trans were in it at the time?

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Your talking about removing HUNDREDS of pounds and keeping steel body and bumpers? No you don't need luck, you need magic. Can't wait to see this 3000 lb e-body with the cardboard dash when its done.

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The reason I'm having trouble believing your stats is my Dart was also a stripper car, /6 3 on the tree, vinyl carpet, manual everything car with 0 undercoating and 9" front drums. I put on a glass hood and valance, removed backseat and installed a bb and auto. It weighed 3260 without driver. My math says add 100# for e body at least to that with all else being equal.

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Yikes now I have to buy one old Mustang and one new Mustang....

It's good to see weights on cars that compete.
Not far off from what I thought. The Emax does that have a 4 bbl or a 6 pack?
I would have thought a small block aluminum top end engine E body to be closer to 3600, but there is a cage.

The weight distribution has to be better on the E max vs the RRunner yes or?

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A lot of this is just speculation as you don't have a complete car yet. If you start with the right Mopar you can get them slightly under class weights, but there isn't going to be much into the car. The Challenger and the Road Runner are cleaned out caged cars, full steel except for their hoods. Aluminium topped motors (heads and intakes) and are pretty stripped down but retain "factory appearing" and still work as cars to be tagged and titled, horns, wipers etc.
E-Max: As raced, me in it, 1/2 bag of gas - 3776lbs
(That is driving straight from the track to a set of scales.)
Road Runner: Last weight for a competition event tech: 3556lbs,
Full bag of gas, no driver.

All that said, you want a light car...
Our 65 Mustang R&D car I have been driving this year to develop our kit, has an all steel 5.0 Roller out of a 93 Explorer, T-5 from a swapmeet, and a 9" out of an icecream truck. 2 layers of insulation and is a complete car, tunes, heater, wipers. - 3090lbs. no driver 1/2 bag of gas.

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My 70 Challenger weighed pretty much exactly its stated 3006lb shipping weight. Before the 'E-bodies all weigh 2-tons' crowd chime in... well, i had a local circle track racer bring over some pricey scales, spent some time and some money and well... turns out all along i was right. these cars CAN weigh very little. A stripped out base 70 Barracuda would be even lighter.

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I think everyone is watching Monday night football around here tonight................

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No ! THEY ARE AT THEIR FORD DEALER ! STAY ON TOPIC !

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A lot of this is just speculation as you don't have a complete car yet.

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If you start with the right Mopar you can get them slightly under class weights, but there isn't going to be much into the car.

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The Challenger and the Road Runner are cleaned out caged cars, full steel except for their hoods. Aluminium topped motors (heads and intakes) and are pretty stripped down but retain "factory appearing" and still work as cars to be tagged and titled, horns, wipers etc.
E-Max: As raced, me in it, 1/2 bag of gas - 3776lbs
(That is driving straight from the track to a set of scales.)
Road Runner: Last weight for a competition event tech: 3556lbs,
Full bag of gas, no driver.

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All that said, you want a light car...
Our 65 Mustang R&D car I have been driving this year to develop our kit, has an all steel 5.0 Roller out of a 93 Explorer, T-5 from a swapmeet, and a 9" out of an icecream truck. 2 layers of insulation and is a complete car, tunes, heater, wipers. - 3090lbs. no driver 1/2 bag of gas.

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Pale Roader, explain to me how my 72 is automatically heavier than a 70?

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I like your ideas man but, you seem to think your the first guy to think of removing a spare tire from the trunk to save weight.

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Been there and done it with a Dart already and have PROOF of the results.

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Next to Mitch's Challenger, this has to be one of the lighter Challengers out there. Not a slam, but I think you pointed out the simplest reason in that many don't think about not adding weight and they start adding this and that and before you know it, you have a 3800# E body. My '74 Challenger was the biggest pig in my collection at 3600+ My '67 was the lightest street car at 3200# with full undercoating. I did get one of my drag cars down to 3000# without swiss cheesing it and using all steel panels, but it was gutted pretty good and I sorted through stacks of parts to find the lightest combinations of pieces

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All of this discussion on weights etc makes me think of how certain cars fit into class rules better than others.

The easy part is I know a 4000# b body will not out lap a spec Mazda miata on a tight twisty course......

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Will someone please explain to me how a 72 Pinto Runabout (stripper) weighs 165lbs more than (pretty much the EXACT SAME) 1971 Runabout? There's some homework for ya...


Brand new - back in the day - A friend had a 1972 Pinto, German sourced 2 liter OHC engine with factory 4 speed (was not a hatch Runabout with large glass hatch setup -rather it was the standard body with the trunk) ....IIRC ... 1972 had mandated 2.5 MPH front and rear bumpers ... and some side impact protection added ....in 1973/74, the bumpers mandate went to required 5 MPH and side impact also was also updated? So those 1973/74 changes resulted in other components also being changed/more reinforcements-brackets, etc. all leading to ...more weight?

Good thread and good discussion...Thx!

Those early Pintos were feather weights compared to later model...
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My '74 Challenger was the biggest pig in my collection at 3600+

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E-Max: As raced, me in it, 1/2 bag of gas - 3776lbs
(That is driving straight from the track to a set of scales.)
Road Runner: Last weight for a competition event tech: 3556lbs,
Full bag of gas, no driver.

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Pale Roader when does the build on your Challenger start?

I had spoke with a guy that makes T/A and AAR hoods show quality and eliminating the factory faults, bowing and the track marks showing through. These hoods weigh just under 50#....you can get race weighr hoods around 25# fron VFN at half the cost of the show hoods.

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I had a gutted 72 Scamp 340 that was set up as a drag car and it was 3000lbs with enough fluids in it to drive it , the only thing it really had other than working lights was windshield wipers. No heater, carpet, 904 trans, plastic fuel cell, drum brakes ect. If I had turned that car into something set up for road racing my guess is it would pick up a least 100 lbs in brakes and tires, 20-30 lbs for sway bars and increased in torsion bar size, 20 lbs for a better cooling system and accusump, plus the extra weight of a 4,5 or 6 speed transmission over the 904 say 30 lbs. That would put it in the 3150-3200 lb range, I could see a completely gutted E body with small block with lots of fiberglass weight something in this range if you put your mind to it.
Now my guess would be just like my Scamp after you would go through all this you would end up leaving in the corner of the garage as no one would want to drive in it for more than 10 minutes.

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This one needs the Recaro seats. There is no way you could build an old Mopar that looks and drives as good as these 2 cars here for 25k.

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We are talking about purchase of an old Mopar and bringing the suspension, brakes, wheels and tires up to par with the handling and braking ability of these two cars.

Some have posted before you need to be rich to write the check to buy a new(er) Mustang. Buy one two to three years old and your getting a true bargain.

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http://dallas.craigslist.org/mdf/ctd/4092670700.html

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http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=121179754518

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Yeah, but what do they weigh?

I'll admit that things like this make a very convincing argument for a turn key hot rod that is a very capable track day ride that will probably fulfill the boy racer need in myself along with the cruise control and a/c requirements of my wife, while being nice enough the kids will want to borrow it to drive it.

I guess that brings us to the age old adage about what matters most to the particular individual, the journey or the destination. I can honestly see it both ways and have done it both ways in the past. Suffice it to say that thankfully we all have differing opinions of that view and its what keeps thing interesting. If we all sold off our old heaps for bargain late model mustangs, it would indeed be a boring place.

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. If we all sold off our old heaps for bargain late model mustangs, it would indeed be a boring place.

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Not for the guy that buys them.

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Hell... even a couple months old with 500 miles on the odo. Just dont be the FIRST guy to sign the reggie and you'll save thousands. I dont understand why anyone buys a brand new 0-mile car.

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Every year they get heavier.

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My 14 is identical to the 13 posted. My car has sync, it may not. Throw some matte black boss stripes on it.

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You would be hard pressed to build any old car for 25 grand that could outrun that black Gt track pack car.

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But how do you know the new ones wont look even better? Doesn't have to be retro to be badass. I wasn't aware the new Mustangs were losing a pile ov weight too... So that means Mopar loses again...???

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until the barracuda comes out in 2015

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Nope. No more than you could OWN a brand new GT track car for 25K anyways.

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2012-Must...forcev4exp=true

Pale Roader, here is the 2012 Mustang GT Track Car we are talking about for 25K. If my 72 Road Runner was sold this car would be in my garage.

Today Mitch is coming over to check out some parts I have for sale and get this 72 Road Runner closer to stock for the sale.....

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Nope. No more than you could OWN a brand new GT track car for 25K anyways. When i buy parts i have to pay taxes on them, plus other levies, but if i buy a brand new car i dont...??? Lets be fair now. As for patina, you couldn't buy that look for 20K, and many pathetic posers have tried. Mines free and i'll take it over a 10K rotisserie job anyday. But hey... i'm weird that way...

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Show me where I can get a set of sticky 18" tires for $1000 a set. Anyway id still rather put 10k in mods in my old iron than anything new.

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$23.5k is more than enough to get the parts and assemble a track car that can out handle the new mustang. But if you ask it to be the complete package with creature comforts and all, forget about it.

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So the budget has been set buy an old Mopar. The cost of the purchase and upgrades in suspension, drivetrain etc etc etc is set 25k. The performance goal is set beat the capabilities of the 25k Mustang track pack car as listed in the Ebay link.....

Who will try to do this.......?

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I'll go first....

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So, would that be Canadian or American Dollars?

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So the budget has been set buy an old Mopar. The cost of the purchase and upgrades in suspension, drivetrain etc etc etc is set 25k. The performance goal is set beat the capabilities of the 25k Mustang track pack car as listed in the Ebay link.....

Who will try to do this.......?

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I have contemplated cutting the body off my 75 dart and cut the body off my 2006 Subaru wrx, and put the abody on the subie frame. There a old Mopar that can beat a track mustang for less than 15k and includes all creature comforts with today's technology. Not counting your time to do it...

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Start

And then lets

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So the budget has been set buy an old Mopar. The cost of the purchase and upgrades in suspension, drivetrain etc etc etc is set 25k. The performance goal is set beat the capabilities of the 25k Mustang track pack car as listed in the Ebay link.....

Who will try to do this.......?

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I have contemplated cutting the body off my 75 dart and cut the body off my 2006 Subaru wrx, and put the abody on the subie frame. There a old Mopar that can beat a track mustang for less than 15k and includes all creature comforts with today's technology. Not counting your time to do it...

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So the budget has been set buy an old Mopar. The cost of the purchase and upgrades in suspension, drivetrain etc etc etc is set 25k. The performance goal is set beat the capabilities of the 25k Mustang track pack car as listed in the Ebay link.....

Who will try to do this.......?

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Maybe i have to go back and read some posts, but i thought the goal was to replicate/beat A new track pack Mustang. I had no idea the specific one you linked was so modified. THAT... is not a fair fight. Well, again, unless we get to start with a half-done or heavily modified car too. Hmmm...???

In that fight? good luck. It could still be done i think, but the comfort level and appearance would be even further compromised... i'm probably talking Mad Max here.

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... i'm probably talking Mad Max here.

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My son's car is really close to Mad Max. It's got hacked wheel openings to fit the FREE used Nascar slicks (we couldn't afford autocross tires). We did custom build the original 15x10 small bolt steel wheels. The 15x10 big bolt were a combo of a pair of Pete Paulsen circle track steelies and a pair of home-built 15x10 Rallyes...The interior consists of a pair of race buckets, a cage, and a gauge panel...

But, like I said we had very little in the car. The most was probably in the 383 build, but we were under $5k. We could NOT compete against the fully-race-prepped first gen Mustang in CP (we had to run CP due to the mods), but my son's car was street driven...

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Bring cash....



btw Mitch stopped by my place this weekend. I had the privilege of driving his T/A. I can tell you small torsion bar guys there is no reason to fear the big torsion bars........so take your 1.06 bars and use them for pry bars in the shop...they got nothing on the large bars.

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Now you gone and done kicked the hornets nest with that one.

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That might be more egregious than saying Mustang........

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Bring cash....



btw Mitch stopped by my place this weekend. I had the privilege of driving his T/A. I can tell you small torsion bar guys there is no reason to fear the big torsion bars........so take your 1.06 bars and use them for pry bars in the shop...they got nothing on the large bars.

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He let me drive his Challenger at the Monster Mopar autocross. Yeah bigger might be better for mostly comp. Then I'd need the 225 lb rate fiberglass leaf springs too. I went conservative on my rate choices. The Torsion bars (.92 tooth picks), wheels and tires currently on your boat would have me singing sea-chantys or barfing from seasicknees, ship ahoy matey ! LOL !

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That .920 setup was done obviously not with the intent of corner carving. Come to think of it neither was any other decision based on road course or auto crossing back when parts selections
were made back in 1999.....


Now for the tires I was running some BFG sport comp 2's 255/50R16 all around....on some V48 wheels......these are a nice cruising tire but most mopar people can't see nothing but mopar wheels on a mopar so Mitch and I did some trading. Look for the old Tuna boat's wheels and tires on Mitch's Challenger soon.....

Hence the Ralley wheels on the car use to be on Mithch's T/A as well as the BF G's

Now they are on the Tuna Boat....

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As I've watched this thread, I can add that my cool T/a is still one of the most popular "pony cars" at shows and any autx/road course events. I love driving it.. handles great, etc.

Last night (Fri) I went to a local show ~500 cars (w/o my T/A) and I looked over ~5 new Boss 302 cars.. very impressiven (I prefer the SC500 supercharged model). I asked and one owner allowed me to sit in his Recaro seat.. very good bolster!.. (similar to my seats in my Chally). Of interest, the owner told me that he paid ~$40k; and... when you buy a new one Ford offers to take you on road race tracks to "teach you how to drive your new Boss 302 car...".. that's cool! Ford is really catering to the pony car market better than any other mfgr. I hope to actually "compete" against these new Boss 302 cars at some local road race tracks (when I eventually have better sticky tires)... I believe that I could stay with them (excluding the highest speed tracks where O/D becomes required), maybe do better than a few.... but as we all know.. the "nut behind the wheel" will make the most difference.

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At the last SDR-SCCA Autocross a friend of mine was doing some 200tw tire testing in his Mustang on the Saturday practice while I was running the Challenger. The fastest tire he tried was the Falken 615K, and with those was about 2 seconds off of my pace. The following day, when he was back on his slicks, he had me covered by about a second. He is a really good driver and is in the running for a jacket in ESP with a bone stock 2012 5.0 with tires.

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...
Then I spoke with Mr. Angry concerning the cross roads I was at with the project....Either dump 30K into this 72 Runner to make the car I wanted it to become or sell it and move on.

From Mr Angry:

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The Mustang is by far the best way to go. I hit the track at least twice per month, I'm an instructor with NASA and an automotive journalist which means I get to drive just about everything under the sun. Bang for the buck the Mustang cannot be beat. I purchased a new 2013 base model GT last year with the track pack and the Recaro's. It's been bullet proof and has the capacity in stock form to compete with much higher dollar cars.

Now... if you want to step your game up even more, look at a Camaro SS with the 1LE package. That will out handle the Mustang as it has better suspension and much wider meat all around. However it will run about 5-6k more.

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Then from Dan @ hotchkis :

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At the last SDR-SCCA Autocross a friend of mine was doing some 200tw tire testing in his Mustang on the Saturday practice while I was running the Challenger. The fastest tire he tried was the Falken 615K, and with those was about 2 seconds off of my pace. The following day, when he was back on his slicks, he had me covered by about a second. He is a really good driver and is in the running for a jacket in ESP with a bone stock 2012 5.0 with tires.

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Good luck with your build. I wish you the best of luck in obtaining your goals.

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Funny thing is we read the same thing, and interpreted two totally different things from what was said.

I see one guy who doesn't track his older mopars, but is very well equipped to advise what new car to buy if that's what you're after. And another who tracks his mopar and outperforms a new mustang on similar tires to the tune of 2 seconds per auto-x course.

Go Mopar

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I don't think that torsion bars, shocks, sway bars and chassis stiffening counts as highly modified.

It means catching up to modern standards.

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Ya, I think 'highly modified' would be 4-corner coil-overs for starters.

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Yes heavily modified from stock...when was the last time a factory E body left for the sales floor with a 1" + torsion bar.

You guys crack me up...nothing like stacking the deck in your favor.

If your comparing stock cars Mustang Track Pack as delivered to a Real Factory Challenger T/A as delivered the Challenger gets freaking smoked and that is even with bringing the 70 T/A up to date with modern tires..... using the same tire on both cars.

I guess you forgot to check how soft of a suspension that Mustang comes with from Ford....

If you had any interest in testing via the scientific method then you would have no problem bringing the Mustang up to the same level of suspension fortitude by allowing for comparable spring rates that are comparable to the torsion bar rates etc that are on the Hotchkis Challenger along with modified control arms etc etc.

Break out the rose colored glasses

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I see one guy who doesn't track his older mopars, but is very well equipped to advise what new car to buy if that's what you're after. And another who tracks his mopar and outperforms a new mustang on similar tires to the tune of 2 seconds per auto-x course.

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- Come on Wade... we both know this couldn't be farther from the truth.

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Ok, next question: What is better, a modified Commodore 64, or an iPhone?

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... and there you have it!

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Lets not be logical now, Mr Spock.