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my car feels drunk.

Posted By: boydsdodge

my car feels drunk. - 06/18/12 11:19 PM

1974 Swinger, rebuilt front suspension, not very old rear suspension.
Here is what I have.
Reinforced welded K/Frame,Firm Feel adjustable strut rods,
reinforced lower control arms with rubber bushings, 11 3/4 front disc brakes,1 1/16th front sway bar,.98 torsion bars, C-body tie rod ends,
rebuilt steering box with a supposed firmer feel,
urethane strut and sway bar bushings,
Bilstien shocks, welded in 2x3 sub frame connectors through the floor,
235/60/15 Yokohama front, 255/60,15 Yokohama rear,
older Mopar performance extra heavy duty rear springs with front hanger flipped,
all new bushings urethane shackle bushings.


The car was driving fine before the rebuild, but I thought I would make some improvements and preventative maintenance, now after the rebuild when I am on the highway taking an off ramp mostly wide left my cars rear feels as if its got it's own steering going on back there and the faster I get from 40 MPH my steering box feels empty up center wider and wider with speed.
I can't just hold steady on the ramp like I was able to do before and it's actually a bit scary in traffic all moving at speed of 60 to 75 Mph.
What did I do wrong or what do you guys think might be wrong?
Ask for more info if needed.
Also had a $200.00 alignment because he had to adjust strut rods, and torsion bars.
Man it's hard to find a good intelligent alignment shop around here.
Alignment specs are:
5deg positive caster
1/2deg neg camber
1/16th toe in
25" to top of front wheel well,
5.25" inch to bottom of K Frame.
8.75" to bottom of lower ball joint.

almost forgot, I also get the feeling of torque steer when I hit throttle during highway drive.
Thanks.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/18/12 11:39 PM

Recheck all ball joints, steering gear and coupler for play. I've seen new UBJ's that were not swaged properly on top that were loose out of the box from the manufacturer. Probably will take two people, one to watch and one to move components back and forth. Check wheel bearing front and back. For an $200 alignment, would have been nice for that guy to give you some extra inspection time.

Aside...Still seems like to much $$$ for a $200 alignment. But next time set you T-bars height at your place. And even up the strut rod distance to factory length at home.
Posted By: boydsdodge

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/19/12 12:00 AM

I had it all set to where I wanted but he went changing things on the height until I told him I was at the height I wanted,then he had to put it back to my height I had originally.

The struts I had set to what I measured square, but he said needed a half turn and one turn,
He called it a custom job so I had to pay.
The front feels great for solo runs but higher up in speed its a drunk.
Could this be bump steer? Maybe too tall a side wall? Maybe but it felt better before rebuild.

Seat of the pants feels like the rear end is moving fore and aft cause it's own steering input.
All is tight back there.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/19/12 12:09 AM

See if you got slop in your idler arm.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/19/12 12:12 AM

Quote:

I had it all set to where I wanted but he went changing things on the height until I told him I was at the height I wanted,then he had to put it back to my height I had originally.

The struts I had set to what I measured square, but he said needed a half turn and one turn,
He called it a custom job so I had to pay.
The front feels great for solo runs but higher up in speed its a drunk.
Could this be bump steer? Maybe too tall a side wall? Maybe but it felt better before rebuild.

Seat of the pants feels like the rear end is moving fore and aft cause it's own steering input.
All is tight back there.



With what you are describing it could be a variety of factors. First things I would check:
-every thing he touched is tightened back down
-ensure hub bearings and all ball joints are still tight
-rear axle is square with front, may be that the rear axle is canted front to rear (check trueness of wheels back there too)
-double check the toe, sounds like handling of the car when I run a lot of toe out for tighter autocross, then try to drive it home.
Posted By: boydsdodge

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/19/12 12:56 AM

Cool, thanks guys for quick input.,
I will do another check of all hardware to make sure.
Posted By: ahy

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/19/12 01:19 AM

The specs sound good... both parts and alignment. But is still doesn't drive right.

The poly lower bushings can allow some slop in LCA position and steering depending on tolerences but the adjustable strut rods should take that out. Suggest you double check for any extra clearance around the LCA bushings. I believe best is to set strut rod length before installing T bars. Adjust length for very slight pre-load of the bushings as you sweep the LCA up and down but no binding. After that, ask your alignment guy to please leave it alone. Same on ride height. Set it on a pair of ramps with the rear on axle stands and ask your alignment guy to leave it alone. Camber, caster and toe sh
ould do it.

Agree inspection of all the other parts is in order. For the front, I like to put the front wheels on a tall set of ramps and get a helper to turn the wheel back and forth while I check for unwanted movement. For the steering box itself, have the motor running so the pump has pressure. For the rear, in addition to visual of the bushings and shackles, check U bolts and axle end play.

For the alignment, agree as posted double check everything after you have gone over it. 1/16" is probably enough toe in but I'd shoot for more like 1/8" for the street especially with bigger/wider tires.
Posted By: jcc

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/19/12 01:38 AM

Are your leaf springs flat and/or level at rest with the new springs and flipped hangers?
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/19/12 02:43 AM

Quote:

I had it all set to where I wanted but he went changing things on the height until I told him I was at the height I wanted,then he had to put it back to my height I had originally.

...



Screw that guy.

Sounds like he has good recommendations from people, but maybe he is taking advantage of it. A guy that would charge another $200 to inspect your suspension. Like he's the only game in town. Maybe he is. But I sort of doubt it. Might be time to buy you own alignment tools for those prices or do some more shop searching.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/19/12 02:46 AM

Quote:

The specs sound good... both parts and alignment. But is still doesn't drive right.

The poly lower bushings can allow some slop in LCA position and steering depending on tolerences but the adjustable strut rods should take that out. Suggest you double check for any extra clearance around the LCA bushings. I believe best is to set strut rod length before installing T bars. Adjust length for very slight pre-load of the bushings as you sweep the LCA up and down but no binding. After that, ask your alignment guy to please leave it alone. Same on ride height. Set it on a pair of ramps with the rear on axle stands and ask your alignment guy to leave it alone. Camber, caster and toe sh
ould do it.



He said he's running stock rubber LCA bushings. So should be fine IF everything was pressed in properly.
Posted By: ahy

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/19/12 02:59 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The specs sound good... both parts and alignment. But is still doesn't drive right.

The poly lower bushings can allow some slop in LCA position and steering depending on tolerences but the adjustable strut rods should take that out. Suggest you double check for any extra clearance around the LCA bushings. I believe best is to set strut rod length before installing T bars. Adjust length for very slight pre-load of the bushings as you sweep the LCA up and down but no binding. After that, ask your alignment guy to please leave it alone. Same on ride height. Set it on a pair of ramps with the rear on axle stands and ask your alignment guy to leave it alone. Camber, caster and toe sh
ould do it.



He said he's running stock rubber LCA bushings. So should be fine IF everything was pressed in properly.



Yep... missed the rubber LCA bushings.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/19/12 04:39 AM

If the car starts to feel loose as speed increases or during acceleration, I'd be looking at something related to the rear. Front hangers for the leaf springs, the attachment bolt, the U-bolts holding the axle to the springs, the shackles....
Also do a check of the wheelbase on BOTH sides of the car. Standart Dart Swingers had an 111" wheelbase. Demons and Dart Sports used a 108 WB. Being out even 1/4" can cause trouble. If the alignment was a "Thrust" type, wouldn't that show up on the sheet?
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/19/12 01:11 PM

I'd be sure to tell the guy that you'll spread the word on his price gouging for work that he did, that you didn't ask him to do, and asked him to UNDO it.

he seriously charged you $200 to tweak the torsion bars without asking you about it, then to set it back where it was after he did the unauthorized work? and that's a "CUSTOM" alignment?!

I had one shop pull that crap on me, and I haven't been back since.

shame on them, I was a loyal customer, went to them for everything I needed, tires, alignments, dismount tires to add a patch, etc. took my dakota there with Hotchkis suspension, asked for specific alignment specs, the ones that Hotchkis calls for. without batting an eye, the guy said "ok, no problem"

then surprised me when I went to pick it up with a bill that was $150. I pointed to the board and said "says right there a 2 wheel alignment is $70."

that's when he pulled the "custom" crap, even when I pointed out that the numbers I asked for were WITHIN the factory range of settings, just that I was looking for specific settings.

turns out asking the guy to hit a specific number is impossible, but getting them within a few hundredths is manageable, but is too hard for the tech to do, because he doesn't get to move stuff around until the squares on the computer screen turn green, and he has to actually walk over to look at the numbers.

And I've not been back to him since.

big surprise to me, the "big box tire store" that was just put in recently, had MUCH better service. I took another vehicle into him, a buddy's Dakota. just asked for "in the green" standard alignment. but, we had just replaced the transmission, and hadn't gotten the reverse lock-out hooked up yet, or get the clutch or transmission broke in yet. the brakes were brand new and hadn't set themselves yet. When I mentioned all this to the manager, just so their tech was aware of it when he test drove it afterwards, he said "tell ya what. you take it home, drive it around, and if you don't like how it feels, bring it back, we'll give you 3 months to come back in for a free adjustment if something doesn't feel right on it"

Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/20/12 03:10 PM

lets put this in a simple sequence;

1-Car felt fine before rebuild.
2-Rebuild was exclusive to the front end, no rear end work was done (? question because you didn't address this specifically).
3-The drive to the shop felt fine but not perfect(? because you didn't address this specifically).
4-alignment shop changed ride height, then reset height, then peformed alignment.
5-Drive after the alignment feels sloppy.

I'd say that contingent upon the answer to #3, the shop may have forgotten to tighten something back down after the set up was achieved. Since the tech demonstrated that he was not fully listening to your directions initially, he may have rushed through the rest of the work and forgotten to torque everything back down and once you pulled out of the bay, the setting changed. This loose part could be tight enough that you can't move it by hand, but it is not tight enough to hold a load.

If it felt this way on your drive to the shop, then something you replaced was not seated correctly or you didn't torque things down enough during re-assembly.
Posted By: boydsdodge

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/20/12 09:52 PM

The car felt fine after the alignment but not right so I took it to another shop in another town that was recommended to me, he checked it out camber was uneven, and set it straight.
This was my first consistent above 50mph to 90mph run I was able to get in.(I live in a heavy urban area, nice place but still heavy traffic slow speeds)
So when I was able to get up to speed it was a different feel then what I was expecting.
As I originally wrote it was a complete front end rebuild with very good parts, the rear is all new within a few years and torques up to spec.
Rear springs have a 2.5inch arch with the reversed front hanger.(maybe I should try the Hotchkiss rear spring kit)
Could this be in the steering box?
I do regret rebuilding the original box as it felt great but had a leak.
Could it be that the new front end and better shocks are showing me too soft of tires?
P.S. Thanks again for all the great replies.

Attached picture 7258234-DSC02529(Medium).jpg
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/21/12 06:21 AM

Rotate your tires for the heck of it.
Posted By: jcc

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/21/12 03:34 PM

Quote:

lets put this in a simple sequence;

1-Car felt fine before rebuild.
2-Rebuild was exclusive to the front end, no rear end work was done (? question because you didn't address this specifically).
.........




They way I understood the OP, the rear was changed (flipped hangers,used SS leafs, etc), we still don't have a clear answer.
Posted By: WheelsUp73

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/23/12 06:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I had it all set to where I wanted but he went changing things on the height until I told him I was at the height I wanted,then he had to put it back to my height I had originally.

The struts I had set to what I measured square, but he said needed a half turn and one turn,
He called it a custom job so I had to pay.
The front feels great for solo runs but higher up in speed its a drunk.
Could this be bump steer? Maybe too tall a side wall? Maybe but it felt better before rebuild.

Seat of the pants feels like the rear end is moving fore and aft cause it's own steering input.
All is tight back there.



With what you are describing it could be a variety of factors. First things I would check:
-every thing he touched is tightened back down
-ensure hub bearings and all ball joints are still tight
-rear axle is square with front, may be that the rear axle is canted front to rear (check trueness of wheels back there too)
-double check the toe, sounds like handling of the car when I run a lot of toe out for tighter autocross, then try to drive it home.



Sounds like a toe out problem to me.
Here is a vid of the frontend of my car. No death wobble here and the car at 130 plus is as stable as it gets.
My car wandered around a bit before the rebuild of the front end.
I use a nylon lower control arm bushing and the uppers are heim joints,
http://youtu.be/LWD9sbw_UWk
Posted By: WheelsUp73

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/23/12 06:44 PM

if you have a printout of the alignment post it.
Posted By: boydsdodge

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/23/12 11:20 PM

Quote:

1974 Swinger, rebuilt front suspension, not very old rear suspension.
Here is what I have.
Reinforced welded K/Frame,Firm Feel adjustable strut rods,
reinforced lower control arms with rubber bushings, 11 3/4 front disc brakes,1 1/16th front sway bar,.98 torsion bars, C-body tie rod ends,
rebuilt steering box with a supposed firmer feel,
urethane strut and sway bar bushings,
Bilstien shocks, welded in 2x3 sub frame connectors through the floor,
235/60/15 Yokohama front, 255/60,15 Yokohama rear,
older Mopar performance extra heavy duty rear springs with front hanger flipped,
all new bushings urethane shackle bushings.


The car was driving fine before the rebuild, but I thought I would make some improvements and preventative maintenance, now after the rebuild when I am on the highway taking an off ramp mostly wide left my cars rear feels as if its got it's own steering going on back there and the faster I get from 40 MPH my steering box feels empty up center wider and wider with speed.
I can't just hold steady on the ramp like I was able to do before and it's actually a bit scary in traffic all moving at speed of 60 to 75 Mph.
What did I do wrong or what do you guys think might be wrong?
Ask for more info if needed.
Also had a $200.00 alignment because he had to adjust strut rods, and torsion bars.
Man it's hard to find a good intelligent alignment shop around here.
Alignment specs are:
5deg positive caster
1/2deg neg camber
1/16th toe in
25" to top of front wheel well,
5.25" inch to bottom of K Frame.
8.75" to bottom of lower ball joint.

almost forgot, I also get the feeling of torque steer when I hit throttle during highway drive.
Thanks.

Posted By: boydsdodge

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/23/12 11:24 PM

Thanks again for all your input.
I am going to swap on another set of wheels and tires to see how that feels.
I have a pretty tall side wall and thought that all the new parts are showing up the other faults.
Posted By: WheelsUp73

Re: my car feels drunk. - 06/24/12 12:36 AM

Quote:

Thanks again for all your input.
I am going to swap on another set of wheels and tires to see how that feels.
I have a pretty tall side wall and thought that all the new parts are showing up the other faults.



That would be a good place to start.
http://youtu.be/ux4dEsgBY7E
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: my car feels drunk. - 07/21/12 01:42 PM

Just a few comments...

> That much caster can cause what I'll call a "weird" feeling. Over the years, I've settled on 2 to 2.5 degrees (except, obviously, on F/J/M)

> I'm real suspicious of that steering box

> I know you said this didn't change, but '73-up A-body Ks were notorious for excessive bumpsteer (idler braket located wrong).

Rick
Posted By: twinscrew698

Re: my car feels drunk. - 08/21/12 03:57 PM

Just make sure all of the nuts are tightened and did not do this!!

Attached picture 7344357-1968YellowRoadrunner044Re-sized.jpg
Posted By: twinscrew698

Re: my car feels drunk. - 08/21/12 03:58 PM

Another with the drum off!

Attached picture 7344361-1968YellowRoadrunner052Re-sized.jpg
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: my car feels drunk. - 08/21/12 04:22 PM

oh damn.

There went all your lotto luck.
Posted By: twinscrew698

Re: my car feels drunk. - 08/22/12 11:57 AM

Quote:

oh damn.

There went all your lotto luck.


Yep!
Posted By: captaindodge

Re: my car feels drunk. - 08/22/12 05:31 PM

What do you mean by (except, obviously, on F/J/M) ?
Posted By: boydsdodge

Re: my car feels drunk. - 09/08/12 02:54 AM

Little late on the reply but it was a very busy summer and have been away alot, like to the nats, Carlisle other racing weekends, Kart racing with the kids, building garages Etc...
I am realy thinking the steering box rebuild was a bad idea.
after driving it a bit more and on long distance runs it really seems to be the box.
As the car is driven the steering starts to loosen up (weird I know)can this even happen?
I will go over the pitman and idler arm measurements and see what I get.
Also take it to another alignment shop for a check up on specs.
Right now I am building a 67 Coronet wagon for the kids and I to cruse in, it will be out of the garage next week.
Posted By: 67autocross

Re: my car feels drunk. - 09/08/12 04:02 PM

Quote:

What do you mean by (except, obviously, on F/J/M) ?



I would guess that he means you need a lot more on the F/J/M bodies, say at least 3-4 degrees. On my Diplomats it would take that amount to get the car to drive straight and the wheel to centre. Thats what I found would provide the best handling on these cars...handling a subjective term in this case.

Attached picture 7370050-P1010178.JPG
Posted By: 67autocross

Re: my car feels drunk. - 09/08/12 04:09 PM

Quote:

Little late on the reply but it was a very busy summer and have been away alot, like to the nats, Carlisle other racing weekends, Kart racing with the kids, building garages Etc...
I am realy thinking the steering box rebuild was a bad idea.
after driving it a bit more and on long distance runs it really seems to be the box.
As the car is driven the steering starts to loosen up (weird I know)can this even happen?
I will go over the pitman and idler arm measurements and see what I get.
Also take it to another alignment shop for a check up on specs.
Right now I am building a 67 Coronet wagon for the kids and I to cruse in, it will be out of the garage next week.




Did they replace the seal in you box or sell you a rebuild? If you bought a parts store box it is most likely a spray painted clapped out box with new seals.
I had a friend buy 2 boxes at Canadian Tire and both were garbage, we went and pulled one out of a low mileage wrecked 5th ave and it worked great.
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