Moparts
Return of ALTERKATION fued
Posted By: Daniel Niclas
Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 12:34 AM
(can’t post to original ALTERKATION – MOPAR ACTION thread, seems to be blocked)
Last night I picked up a copy of Mopar Action and discovered my inquiry to Rick about RMS Alterkation was published along with a response. While I agree with the engineering evaluation of potential design flaws, the fact of the matter is they are not “flaws” unless they are proven to not function properly.
There is no question the RMS Alterkation has an exceptional track record of performance and safety on the road and track. It may even be safe to say, it has a better track record than most factory assemblies. This system has been in use for over 10 years with zero documented recurring failure (that I can find or solicit from other people).
I opted to upgrade my Challenger’s front suspension to RMS following multiple rebuilds and improvement to the stock system, which never improved handling performance beyond that of a stock Toyota Camry. Overall it is a sloppy system. Ultimately, following hard driving conditions the driver side LCA mounting point in the K-Frame snapped (talk about a weak point), the torsion bar bent and the strut rod bent. On dis-assembly both LCA’s were bent to the rear like bananas, completely eliminating any hope for proper caster.
The performance of the RMS system is outstanding. Steering is tight, responsive, road feel is excellent and handling is 5 fold improved. With the dual adjustable AFCOs the ride comfort far exceeds my expectations. It is like a completely new modern car. It cruises easy and comfortably and locks its teeth in when needed. The rear suspension is the XV three link. The car has all available bracing from XV.
With the track record of success RMS has, it is impossible to conclude this product is unsafe or inadequate in any way. I enjoy critically evaluating products as much as anyone else, and I can’t dispute any of Rick’s logic, but the final result is from what happens in the application space. And RMS wins every time. It is impossible to conclude there is a problem with RMS until someone can identify a problem with RMS.
Thank you to all
Daniel
Posted By: WO23Coronet
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 02:37 AM
The tie rods are cantilevered where they bolt to the spindle due to the spacers they use to get proper bumpsteer, this makes them weak
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 04:22 AM
In on 1!
Posted By: DARTH V8Я
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 04:36 AM
Its only good if it has the "Eddie Miller" stamp of approval..
Posted By: Daniel Niclas
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 04:39 AM
The extension from the spindle (cantilever) for attaching the tie rod end is a welded solid steel sleeve capable of withstanding over 40,000 lbs of force. This “cantilever” is stronger than virtually every single part of the stock steering linkage. XV uses the exact same “cantilever” solution. While it might look like a week point, it is not. It barely qualifies for the use of the term “cantilever” as one could just cast the spindle with more meet to accomplish the same thing (which would probably be weaker). There are no spacers in this solution at all.
Posted By: NITROUSN
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 04:55 AM
Quote:
The extension from the spindle (cantilever) for attaching the tie rod end is a welded solid steel sleeve capable of withstanding over 40,000 lbs of force. This “cantilever” is stronger than virtually every single part of the stock steering linkage. XV uses the exact same “cantilever” solution. While it might look like a week point, it is not. It barely qualifies for the use of the term “cantilever” as one could just cast the spindle with more meet to accomplish the same thing (which would probably be weaker). There are no spacers in this solution at all.
I smell a troll 
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 05:06 AM
If you couldn't get the stock based stuff to work, maybe you were doing it wrong.
Ricks points are valid.
ANY 40 year old part is more prone to failure than a brand new casting/forging, so the fact that you damaged the k member is not surprising. Yes it is a weak point, but the cause for the failure is a mix of time and miles, with the possibility of lower bushing failure preceding it. I have yet to see an egged out UCA hole that wasn't also accompanied by a damaged LCA bushing. This is classic cause and effect. The bushing fails resulting in increased slop, which causes the LCA shaft to bear against the arm itself. The resulting vibration hammers away at the K member mount, which eventually cracks and elongates. This isn't something that happens to every car, but the ones that did fail probably had 100,000 miles or more.
If YOU are happy with the kit, good for you. It is your money and you have every right to spend it as you wish. I will agree that the weight savings is an attractive thing, and if you weren't able to get a steering feel with the stock based stuff, the rack and pinion design may be right up your alley. There are tens of thousands of us running factory stuff, and ours is time tested for durability. Time will tell if the RMS stuff holds up as well.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 07:05 AM
How rusty was your Challenger??
If someone bent booth your lower controls arms back maybe that accident or abuse caused the K-member welds to brake.
Posted By: Daniel Niclas
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 09:06 AM
Yes, it is possible I was not dialing in the stock front end optimally and yes Rick’s points are valid, and I am also glad to be informed by his and others expertise.
There is no such thing as a “perfect” car. Thanks to our passion for this hobby we innovate to achieve improvement. Starting with the stock gear all the way to developing entirely new assemblies. It is a rigorous ordeal to find a replacement K-frame and suitable LCAs. Replacements are hard to find, expensive and rather banged up. In the end the stock parts ride was harsh and lacking in performance. Everything was replaced, re-bushed, re-aligned.. I was not looking for the opportunity to spend a lot of money, I just wanted more performance and went with the Alterkation. The results exceeded my expectations.
Now I have to contend with the swirling uncertainty of safety issues that people are predicting based on design features. Is it better to space the LCA mounting points by 16 inches instead of 8? Of course it is. Is 8 inches of spacing sufficient? All indications are yes. Are there recurring failures in the field? No there are not. Bill Reilly is an innovator dedicated to our hobby and so is Rick. How awesome would it be if their expertise and knowledge were combined to elevate the level of safety and performance of our Mopar solutions. If additional bracing or gusseting or seam welding can improve the situation let’s hear about it. But until a problem reveals itself, there is no problem. Perhaps Bill nailed it and the Alterkation is truly awesome, because after over 10 years of use the track record looks pretty good. Maybe I am just saying all this to make myself feel better because I spent a lot of cash on it… Nothing is ever perfect. Crap…..
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 11:42 AM
Quote:
Yes, it is possible I was not dialing in the stock front end optimally and yes Rick’s points are valid, and I am also glad to be informed by his and others expertise.
There is no such thing as a “perfect” car. Thanks to our passion for this hobby we innovate to achieve improvement. Starting with the stock gear all the way to developing entirely new assemblies. It is a rigorous ordeal to find a replacement K-frame and suitable LCAs. Replacements are hard to find, expensive and rather banged up. In the end the stock parts ride was harsh and lacking in performance. Everything was replaced, re-bushed, re-aligned.. I was not looking for the opportunity to spend a lot of money, I just wanted more performance and went with the Alterkation. The results exceeded my expectations.
...
What shocks and size torsion bars did you use with your stock setup?
Do you live in a place that is hard to find stock parts?
Posted By: Evil Spirit
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 03:56 PM
Quote:
In on 1!
Just like we learned in 4TH grade, if you're not going to bring enough for EVERYBODY... 
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 06:30 PM
Quote:
Yes, it is possible I was not dialing in the stock front end optimally and yes Rick’s points are valid, and I am also glad to be informed by his and others expertise.
There is no such thing as a “perfect” car. Thanks to our passion for this hobby we innovate to achieve improvement. Starting with the stock gear all the way to developing entirely new assemblies. It is a rigorous ordeal to find a replacement K-frame and suitable LCAs. Replacements are hard to find, expensive and rather banged up. In the end the stock parts ride was harsh and lacking in performance. Everything was replaced, re-bushed, re-aligned.. I was not looking for the opportunity to spend a lot of money, I just wanted more performance and went with the Alterkation. The results exceeded my expectations.
Now I have to contend with the swirling uncertainty of safety issues that people are predicting based on design features. Is it better to space the LCA mounting points by 16 inches instead of 8? Of course it is. Is 8 inches of spacing sufficient? All indications are yes. Are there recurring failures in the field? No there are not. Bill Reilly is an innovator dedicated to our hobby and so is Rick. How awesome would it be if their expertise and knowledge were combined to elevate the level of safety and performance of our Mopar solutions. If additional bracing or gusseting or seam welding can improve the situation let’s hear about it. But until a problem reveals itself, there is no problem. Perhaps Bill nailed it and the Alterkation is truly awesome, because after over 10 years of use the track record looks pretty good. Maybe I am just saying all this to make myself feel better because I spent a lot of cash on it… Nothing is ever perfect. Crap…..
Im glad you're happy with your alterK now where are the vids and pics of it getting the s@#t beat out of it? I dont like Mustang IIs and the crap under the front of them can stay there.
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 06:43 PM
Stock stuff ( K frames )did not fail at 10 years old either and it was hammered a lot harder than the guys with thhis new fangled stuff, 100,000 miles in ten years was the norm not the exception, any one got an alter K with 100,000+ miles
Posted By: Daniel Niclas
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 07:21 PM
I live in San Jose CA and the stock parts I have obtained came from salvage yards in Southern CA and Alabama. I spent a fortune on these replacement parts. The replacement K-frame was quite nice, but the best LCAs I could find looked like they were removed with a sledge hammer and jagged rocks. I spent almost as much rebuilding the front in the stock configuration as the cost of Alterkation. Granted I may not be so savvy with the whole procuring high quality stock parts for the right price.
My Challenger is a small block (then 340 and now stroker 408) and I used the big-block T-bars from Mancini, aluminum strut bars and Magnum force uppers (now I could get 3-4 deg castor). All steering linkage was inspected and re-assembled including pitmans, idlers, gear box and pump. I believe the shocks at the time were Konis. After all this, the performance and street ride improved significantly, however the compression and rebound behavior was not suitable for track driving (or I will admit maybe I was not enough driver). The tires would not dig in, road feel was distant and I spent a lot of time sliding around not yet at speed.
Now with coil over AFCOs all around and rack, the feel and responsiveness is like a modern car. More amazing than that are the street manners of this suspension. It is more forgiving than the T-bar and leaf spring combination, so I just assume it is more capable of managing compression and rebound issues on any driving surface.
I agonized over the stock, Alterkation, XV decision for weeks. Web searches, talking to other people, Bill and the owner dude at XV. I opted for RMS in front and XV in rear. The car is currently driving in mock up, but will be blown apart for finish. I guess that means I could make changes to the front if I wanted to, but the thought quite frankly is making me a bit ill at this point. For now I am sticking with the fact that there are no known problems identified with Alterkation. If there was guidance available for improving the integrity of this system I would certainly listen. I will listen to any guidance, as I am not the expert.
Thanks,
Daniel
Posted By: Daniel Niclas
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 07:22 PM
and the front
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 08:20 PM
There is no question the RMS Alterkation has an exceptional track record of performance and safety on the road and track. It may even be safe to say, it has a better track record than most factory assemblies. This system has been in use for over 10 years with zero documented recurring failure (that I can find or solicit from other people).
You just can't make a claim like that, a few hundred guys running around with Alterkations on mainly summer driven cars does not constitute any type of safety record.
Of the 3 cars that I know have them one car has about 1000 miles on it over 8 years the other about 200 miles and the 3rd one is still being pushed around the shop.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 08:34 PM
Quote:
Ricks points are valid.
On the points he made, likely, However, IMO when a reader asks an open question, and you have the bully pulpit, unless you consider yourself the final authority on a subject, one really should give/present all sides of an argument, and let the reader(s) decide. My main concern is what he did not mention, and that it might be considered a positive for RMS.
Saying one does not have ax to grind, doesn't make it so. 
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 09:39 PM
Quote:
I live in San Jose CA and the stock parts I have obtained came from salvage yards in Southern CA and Alabama. I spent a fortune on these replacement parts. The replacement K-frame was quite nice, but the best LCAs I could find looked like they were removed with a sledge hammer and jagged rocks. I spent almost as much rebuilding the front in the stock configuration as the cost of Alterkation. Granted I may not be so savvy with the whole procuring high quality stock parts for the right price.
My Challenger is a small block (then 340 and now stroker 408) and I used the big-block T-bars from Mancini, aluminum strut bars and Magnum force uppers (now I could get 3-4 deg castor). All steering linkage was inspected and re-assembled including pitmans, idlers, gear box and pump. I believe the shocks at the time were Konis. After all this, the performance and street ride improved significantly, however the compression and rebound behavior was not suitable for track driving (or I will admit maybe I was not enough driver). The tires would not dig in, road feel was distant and I spent a lot of time sliding around not yet at speed.
Now with coil over AFCOs all around and rack, the feel and responsiveness is like a modern car. More amazing than that are the street manners of this suspension. It is more forgiving than the T-bar and leaf spring combination, so I just assume it is more capable of managing compression and rebound issues on any driving surface.
I agonized over the stock, Alterkation, XV decision for weeks. Web searches, talking to other people, Bill and the owner dude at XV. I opted for RMS in front and XV in rear. The car is currently driving in mock up, but will be blown apart for finish. I guess that means I could make changes to the front if I wanted to, but the thought quite frankly is making me a bit ill at this point. For now I am sticking with the fact that there are no known problems identified with Alterkation. If there was guidance available for improving the integrity of this system I would certainly listen. I will listen to any guidance, as I am not the expert.
Thanks,
Daniel
I'm not saying your Alterkation or XV stuff is unsafe or bad.
Just there is more than one right answer. More than one way to get to a goal. I don't think the factory stuff is bad either. And it less expensive for most.
My WAG is the shocks and the brand new quick ratio steering (not rebuilt) that w/o factory slip joint are the major things you are feeling.
But that's a total guess on my part.
Would be interesting to run the stock suspension version of your current Afco shocks. And also try that new Saginaw 600 steering box with solid universal joint. And see how that "feels" in comparison to an Alterkion.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 10:10 PM
Quote:
(can’t post to original ALTERKATION – MOPAR ACTION thread, seems to be blocked)
Last night I picked up a copy of Mopar Action and discovered my inquiry to Rick about RMS Alterkation was published along with a response. While I agree with the engineering evaluation of potential design flaws, the fact of the matter is they are not “flaws” unless they are proven to not function properly.
There is no question the RMS Alterkation has an exceptional track record of performance and safety on the road and track. It may even be safe to say, it has a better track record than most factory assemblies. This system has been in use for over 10 years with zero documented recurring failure (that I can find or solicit from other people).
I opted to upgrade my Challenger’s front suspension to RMS following multiple rebuilds and improvement to the stock system, which never improved handling performance beyond that of a stock Toyota Camry. Overall it is a sloppy system. Ultimately, following hard driving conditions the driver side LCA mounting point in the K-Frame snapped (talk about a weak point), the torsion bar bent and the strut rod bent. On dis-assembly both LCA’s were bent to the rear like bananas, completely eliminating any hope for proper caster.
The performance of the RMS system is outstanding. Steering is tight, responsive, road feel is excellent and handling is 5 fold improved. With the dual adjustable AFCOs the ride comfort far exceeds my expectations. It is like a completely new modern car. It cruises easy and comfortably and locks its teeth in when needed. The rear suspension is the XV three link. The car has all available bracing from XV.
With the track record of success RMS has, it is impossible to conclude this product is unsafe or inadequate in any way. I enjoy critically evaluating products as much as anyone else, and I can’t dispute any of Rick’s logic, but the final result is from what happens in the application space. And RMS wins every time. It is impossible to conclude there is a problem with RMS until someone can identify a problem with RMS.
Thank you to all
Daniel
You got your degree in engineering where?
Mickey Mouse U?
If you cannot get a stock based E body suspension to handle better than a Camry you are in absolutely NO position to comment on the validity of anything mechanical or suspension related.
Posted By: Daniel Niclas
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/03/12 10:20 PM
“… there is more than one right answer. More than one way to get to a goal. I don't think the factory stuff is bad either. And it less expensive for most.”
I could not agree more. Experimenting with the AFCO shocks on a stock style set up is an excellent idea. Leaf springs from my experience can be unforgiving and overly sensitive to imperfections in the road. Perhaps a tunable set of AFCOs can provide the desired results.
I am now an official customer and user of RMS and XV. I intend to continue working with them and the Mopar community to improve the performance of our vehicles. If I break something I will fix it and report on it. Anyone who runs the road coarse has three spares of everything or a trailer to get the car home. Breaking things is normal and expected. This is how we find the weak link and come up with clever ways to improve.
Posted By: brads70
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/04/12 12:49 AM
Thanks for your input! For years I've been looking at all the aftermarket systems out there and "IF" I was to swap out the stock set up I think the RMS front set up is the only aftermarket set up I'd look at.
I'm quite happy playing with in the "stock" parts bins to come up with a better handling solution. I'm pretty happy with the results from what I've come up with so far , and with not really a lot of money spent also. I've spent about $1000 on my front end and IMO vastly improved over stock. That being said I'm no "expert" I just enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of the stock design. Im sure it will be a constant evolution and they are "never done" that just what we tell our wives to keep them happy!
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/04/12 01:29 AM
Quote:
... Leaf springs from my experience can be unforgiving and overly sensitive to imperfections in the road. Perhaps a tunable set of AFCOs can provide the desired results.
...
In my racing experience setting up, crewing, and building... the leaf springs are more forgiving on the track than a 4 link or link type rear.
By happenstance sort of, our track changed the rules to allow 4 link rear suspension. Nothing else really changed. We put a new rear clip with 4 link on one of our cars. But the other 3 driver development cars ran had leaf springs. Sometimes the leaf springs car would win and sometimes they would not. Our most experienced driver (multi champ, 2nd in track history with wins) said the leaf spring car were more forgiving on the track.
The biggest gain with the 4 link was adjust ability. Rear steer, roll center, weight jacks, roll steer, spring rate changes, availible consistent spring rates, etc were now much easier and more precise to change between test sessions. But the 4 link systems are more expensive to repair and not as impact resistant as a leaf spring setup. You end up replacing bent track bars and bent expensive track bar sperical rod ends.
The one and only alter k I've touched had a broken weld at that tie rod sleeve that is welded to the steering arm. In other higher end systems they use dropped steering arms to eliminate that problem. The smaller than stock wheel bearings are also a little puzzling to me. But then again, I'm sure its fine for most.
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/04/12 05:16 AM
That purple Dart is bad ass.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/04/12 03:26 PM
Not sure what you need to hear to feel safe about your purchase. Usage and mileage certainly are factors and if your car is not a daily driver and you live in an area where roads are decently maintained, you may never have any issues.
If its any consolation, there are strut suspensions out that that do not have the magic 16" load spread on the control arms and they manage to absorb a fair amount of abuse along with daily usage. While they can and do occasionally fail, it certainly has some mitigating factors, such as maintanence, and is typically not a major newsworthy item. Is that to say the AlterK is all that, I dont' know. I've never used one. But it isn't a huge bane to reliability either.
IMO, a lot of the benefit of these aftermarket suspensions comes in a few key areas; reduced weight, improved precision, greater adjustability and match spring/shock rates to the application.
To address these; you can reduce weight in the nose of the car in more economical ways than replacing the entire suspension. Fiberglass cost about $10 a pound to loose weight with. An Alterk costs you around $50 a pound.
Improved precision is often times comparing used original or partially rebuilt systems to an entirely brand new conversion. I would epxect all new everything to have better precision than original. Will a R&P maintain that precision for longer than a recirculating ball gear box, probably. But I also doubt most of these cars are accumulating that many miles any more to make a fair comparison a decade later.
Greater adjustability is a benefit that is not as easily obtained with stock parts. The factory mopar design does have limitations, but can usually show sizeable improvements with a few key pieces being changed out. If you drive in an environment that necessitates rapid changes to spring and shock rates or slight variations in geometric changes, then the aftermarket set ups do have a considerable advantage. However, this tends to be highly contested competitive environments where a lot of this vintage of mopar do not play.
Finally is the matching of spring/shock rates to the application. This is, IMO, the biggest benefit of these systems as you have the designers or technical staff designating what peices play well together. Contrast this to your average street enthusiast who tends to buy the biggest this and the cheapest that and munges them all together and then its easy to see why things don't perform well and along the way the car has lost a fair amount of reliability and comfort as well as performance. If you can understand how all the peices work together and where to compromise and where to splurge to get the matched set up to ahcieve the proper rates sets and percentages, it is entirely possible for a 40 year old design to match a modern design in performance and comfort. But, not everyone can pull that rabbit out of the hat and if thats the case, you may be better served by having someone else figure it all out for you.
Posted By: Daniel Niclas
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/05/12 12:44 AM
Thank you
TC@HP2 for this very helpful and insightful response. As mentioned before there are many good solutions depending on the circumstances. I will approach use of my new system the same way I approach any repair or upgrade: with restrained enthusiasm.
Posted By: Daniel Niclas
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/09/12 09:21 PM
Quote:
You got your degree in engineering where?
Mickey Mouse U?
If you cannot get a stock based E body suspension to handle better than a Camry you are in absolutely NO position to comment on the validity of anything mechanical or suspension related.
Bachelor’s degree: UC Berkeley
Ph.D.: UC Los Angeles (kinda close to Disney Land :-)
Where did you get your degree?
I didn’t join this board to discredit anyone or proclaim my expertise, merely to get help
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/10/12 01:51 AM
Hard knock U
If you cannot get a stock based Mopar suspension to handle better than a Camry you are still not in a position to comment on it regardless of how high or deep it's piled.
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/10/12 03:50 AM
While I do agree with the above comment, it is sorta harsh to post for all to see.
Handling dynamics are complicated. For example: A mediocre handling car with good, form fitting seats can make a car feel pretty good. A car with lots of body roll but a super tight steering gear can also give good feel. If the OP is happy with his choice, why bash him? You will not change his mind. If he is spending his money and not anyone elses, I'm okay with that.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/10/12 04:08 PM
Come on, he's a shill for the Altercation setup. Comes in here dinging the stock suspension while totally displaying his complete ignorance (I am being nice here and assuming it's ignorance and not a deliberate attempt to sell the altercation) and expects us to treat him nice?
Really?
In the handling forum?
Where people her know how to outhandle a Camry, know how to drive a handling car and know how to do it for less than the supposed thousands of dollars he spent only to be unable to outhandle a Camry?
Really?
Mr PiledHigherandDeeper can take a flying fark as far as I am concerned and I am not impressed by any company that tries this crap to sell their stuff.
Posted By: topbrent
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/10/12 09:51 PM
I won't comment on the AlterKtion vs. OE type Mopar stuff, but the handling like a new Camry comment is not completely unfounded.
Hotchkis loaded up a 67 coronet full of their suspension parts and compared it against the slalom times of several new vehicles.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/chassis/hrdp_0909_mopar_suspension_bolt_ons/viewall.htmlAfter the full Hotchkis install, and with a pro driver in the seat, the slalom times equaled those of a 2001 Honda Accord.
- New cars handle pretty great, comparatively.
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/10/12 10:22 PM
It's sad but true, a new Camry SE runs low 14's in the 1/4 and pulls over .8g on the skid and stops in under 120 feet . Those are good numbers and you would need to have lot's of set up time into an old car to put a beating on one on a road track or autocross.
Posted By: cogen80
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/10/12 10:45 PM
Quote:
The one and only alter k I've touched had a broken weld at that tie rod sleeve that is welded to the steering arm. In other higher end systems they use dropped steering arms to eliminate that problem. The smaller than stock wheel bearings are also a little puzzling to me. But then again, I'm sure its fine for most.
you still working at XV ? if so are you running their set up on your dart? hows it work?
sorry for the high jack..
Posted By: DARTH V8Я
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/11/12 12:35 AM
Quote:
It's sad but true, a new Camry SE runs low 14's in the 1/4 and pulls over .8g on the skid and stops in under 120 feet . Those are good numbers and you would need to have lot's of set up time into an old car to put a beating on one on a road track or autocross.
This, and to get a older mopar to do the same cornering & braking, ones gonna need to wheel in wheelbarrels full of cash to ones farvorite store. I don`t see a problem with AlterK stuff, millions of production cars have simular setups, pulling all kinds of miles with simular weights.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/11/12 01:59 AM
Quote:
It's sad but true, a new Camry SE runs low 14's in the 1/4 and pulls over .8g on the skid and stops in under 120 feet . Those are good numbers and you would need to have lot's of set up time into an old car to put a beating on one on a road track or autocross.
This Challenger with a 440 motor and Hotchkis TVS, 1.00" t-bars, and 245/60/15 BFG tires pulls .85g on the skid pad.
Those tires do not help at all. Someone with those T-bars and front a rear sway bars should be able to get close to those skid pad numbers.
But a skid pad is only steady state cornering. A slalom has the car transistioning side to side. That why the shock alone were such an improvement on the Hot Rod 67 Coronet test.
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2010/08/01/hmn_tips1.html
Posted By: ThermoQuad
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/11/12 02:05 AM
Give me $23,200 [msrp for a camry]and I will give you an A body that eats Camry's with ease. Pick your poison Alterkation or torsion bars, I don't care.
The mopar action dig on the alterkation was poor at best and a twist for sure. The comment about the 200 million mph daytona was out of context as well as any car with a million point cage or the proper stiffening will handle fine with the stock mopar torsion bars. I built a big fat heavy 1970 Charger RT that runs Thunder Road on hemi torsion bars and springs and does it really really well.
How the heck did i do that??? Don't believe me? June 25th Watkins Glen...see for yourself.
I looked hard on line for pics of the 200 million mph wing car suspension etc and there are none to be found. They have kept quite a lid on the details of that car. A BIG lid! If I was an expert like Rick claims to be and I asked those guys what they were using for suspension and they gave that glib answer I would be looking quite hard at the car and not taken their word as gospel. I would also have some facts to back up my words
Lot's of hot air from some of you guys...
Posted By: A57_RT
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/11/12 02:25 AM
If ive ever seen a post thats beating a dead horse, aot of the ones concerning the alterk unit is one of them.
Wont get into a rant, but the people who have them seem to have no issues. I see it as no different then a preference over a Big Block, Small Block, and since these castings are 40 years old why not a new gen hemi?
For 5 years ive been beating mine on a reg bassis, from -26 to 94 degrees (yes at -26, only our carbed vehicles would start). Snow and rain. Some of this has been on harsh dirt mountain roads.
When I got my unit I cleaned it, etch primed it, sealed and then put a good top coat and then clear, it cleans up as new even today.
Weather a stock, modified stock, RMS or XV unt, ect....if the owner is happy imo thats all that matters.
Toss this topic in with the wheel spacers, welded k members, it cant work, it wont work into a golden 5 gallon bucket and some would complain it should of been a copper bucket.
Posted By: 68Plymouths
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/14/12 06:31 PM
Quote:
In on 1!
MOPAR stock front suspension is crap. Excessive caster gain, massive bump steer and a torsion bar. Really? Tanks and trailers have a torsion bar suspension. I don't recall seeing torsion bars on any late models or NASCAR cars. Hmmm, they seem to tak a lot of corners at high speeds effectively.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/14/12 07:01 PM
Quote:
MOPAR stock front suspension is crap. Excessive caster gain, massive bump steer and a torsion bar. Really? Tanks and trailers have a torsion bar suspension. I don't recall seeing torsion bars on any late models or NASCAR cars. Hmmm, they seem to tak a lot of corners at high speeds effectively.
I've bump steered my Barracuda, and I don't have massive bump steer. Pretty close to what a new Challenger is. Have you bump steered your car yourself?
Caster gain typically comes from anti dive in the upper control arm. Stock coil spring cars have similar anti dive angles. There are templetes that alter caster gain by removing anti dive (guldstrand templetes)
Can you show us the measurements of the Caster gain on a stock:
1970 Chevelle?
1970 Mustang?
1970 Camaro?
And compare those measured on popular Mopar models?
Porsche 911's had torsion bars up to about 10 years ago. Sprint cars all run torsion bars.
Posted By: 68Plymouths
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/14/12 07:14 PM
In fact, I can't recall seeing a torsion bar suspension on ANY race car that takes corners in the last 25 years. If it is so f-ing good, you would think someone would use it...
Posted By: 68Plymouths
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/14/12 07:26 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I've bump steered my Barracuda, and I don't have massive bump steer. Pretty close to what a new Challenger is. Have you bump steered your car yourself?
Caster gain typically comes from anti dive in the upper control arm. Stock coil spring cars have similar anti dive angles. There are templetes that alter caster gain by removing anti dive (guldstrand templetes)
Can you show us the measurements of the Caster gain on a stock:
1970 Chevelle?
1970 Mustang?
1970 Camaro?
And compare those measured on popular Mopar models?
Porsche 911's had torsion bars up to about 10 years ago. Sprint cars all run torsion bars.
Let's see...
Yes.
I agree, but in so saying you agree that the upper a-arm is moved from it's stock location.
Nope, don't own any of those. And don't care, not comparing to a Chevelle/Camaro/Mustang.
Some sprint cars do use a torsion bar, but I've never seen one. Also, many sprint cars use a Jacob's ladder rear susension. Those boys aren't right...
Posted By: Devil
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/14/12 08:26 PM
I am not saying anything. I am just providing more information. There was a really good thread about this with Mopar Actions input on the site. It was moved to the Tech page. There is a link below.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0&fpart=1Ryan
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/14/12 08:28 PM
Quote:
I've bump steered my Barracuda, and I don't have massive bump steer. Pretty close to what a new Challenger is. Have you bump steered your car yourself?
Caster gain typically comes from anti dive in the upper control arm. Stock coil spring cars have similar anti dive angles. There are templetes that alter caster gain by removing anti dive (guldstrand templetes)
Can you show us the measurements of the Caster gain on a stock:
1970 Chevelle?
1970 Mustang?
1970 Camaro?
And compare those measured on popular Mopar models?
Porsche 911's had torsion bars up to about 10 years ago. Sprint cars all run torsion bars.
Quote:
Let's see...
Yes.
What body type? What were your bump steer numbers?
Quote:
I agree, but in so saying you agree that the upper a-arm is moved from it's stock location.
My A-body UCA has not been moved from stock pickup points.
Quote:
Nope, don't own any of those. And don't care, not comparing to a Chevelle/Camaro/Mustang.
Then what are you comparing it too? You say it's crap, that's implying you're comparing it to something.
Quote:
In fact, I can't recall seeing a torsion bar suspension on ANY race car that takes corners in the last 25 years. If it is so f-ing good, you would think someone would use it...
Full purpose built class road race or circle track cars need lots of adjustabilty. And do so within a budget of a race team. Guys driving street cars don't have 10 sets of front springs, 8 other shocks, mulitple upper control arms, adjustable suspension pick up points with slugs, on and on and on...
I didn't think this discussion was on full road race or circle track cars racing within class rules. I don't think an Alterkion or any other pre made bolt on front end for Mopar would be an optimal setup for those types of racing nor thier class rules.
Torsion might not be the best for all situations. Mostly packaging and part availability reasons. But I don't think they are inherently crap. It's just another way to stick a spring on any suspension linkage.
Posted By: 68Plymouths
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/14/12 08:33 PM
Did I mention I love stirring the pot?
Looks like it worked...
And it's still crap, as I pointed out before that's ->
Don't like it, too bad.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/14/12 08:46 PM
Quote:
Did I mention I love stirring the pot?
Looks like it worked...
And it's still crap, as I pointed out before that's ->
Don't like it, too bad.
So your points are pointless.
You are just stirring the pot as you admit to. You are just here to antagonize.
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/14/12 10:55 PM
Looks like he hooked one too.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 12:16 AM
Must be slow days in Milford, watching the grass grow and paint dry.
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 12:26 AM
Is the lady with the rod from "Milford" ?
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 12:32 AM
Quote:
Is the lady with the rod from "Milford" ?
I doubt that...........if she was originally she fled as soon as she could, 68Plymouths is from there and he was so I couldn't help and had to ask him how slow things are in Milford........as to make a pointless diversion here on the topic.
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 12:45 AM
Quote:
In fact, I can't recall seeing a torsion bar suspension on ANY race car that takes corners in the last 25 years. If it is so f-ing good, you would think someone would use it...
Go away and start fires somewhere else.
Posted By: 68Plymouths
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 12:59 AM
Quote:
Must be slow days in Milford, watching the grass grow and paint dry.
Always!!!! 
Just because I'm , doesn't mean that my points are pointless. I just know that no matter what points are made there are some purists that believe the MOPAR torsion bar suspension is the greatest thing ever. If you want it on your car, that's fine with me. But why knock what someone else is doing??? The Alterkation seems to to be a pretty darn good system. I've hatcheted up my Satellite by building a tubular/coil-over front suspension that corrects the geometry issues in the original design, but someone on here looked at the pics and said it was "junk." (Frankenduster, I believe 
) I invite him to come here and see it in person. Things are kinda slow in corn country, since the corn hasn't even tasselled out yet, so I have plenty of time. 
Posted By: 340duster340
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 02:21 AM
Quote:
Quote:
In fact, I can't recall seeing a torsion bar suspension on ANY race car that takes corners in the last 25 years. If it is so f-ing good, you would think someone would use it...
Porsche 911sc has t bars in the rear
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 02:59 AM
68Plymouths
How close is your modification to the RMS Alterkation deal. I will have to search for it and check it out.
I kinda doubt the corn will be knee high up in the northern part of IL by July 4th.....just no rain maybe that will change next week?
I have no problem with them T bars since Im not running headers or anything that far from stock on my 72 Runner.
As an engineering student you learn its all about compromise especially when (T bars) are a production type mass produced for the masses kind of a product.
Now granted there are a few guys here that can take that Tbar system and make it work better then most guys would even dream of. Does that make it the only way to skin the cat no. But if that is pretty much obtainable and keep the car looking mosty stock with the right mods here and there...that is the path I will choose.
Not to say the guy that opens his wallet with the top dollar XV system or Alterk or other methods is doing anything wrong just different...
So lets see some pics of your front end 68Plymouths...
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 05:46 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Must be slow days in Milford, watching the grass grow and paint dry.
Always!!!!
Just because I'm , doesn't mean that my points are pointless. I just know that no matter what points are made there are some purists that believe the MOPAR torsion bar suspension is the greatest thing ever. If you want it on your car, that's fine with me. But why knock what someone else is doing??? The Alterkation seems to to be a pretty darn good system. I've hatcheted up my Satellite by building a tubular/coil-over front suspension that corrects the geometry issues in the original design, but someone on here looked at the pics and said it was "junk." (Frankenduster, I believe ) I invite him to come here and see it in person. Things are kinda slow in corn country, since the corn hasn't even tasselled out yet, so I have plenty of time.
I'm not saying the T-bars are the greatest ever. Just ONE of the ways to do put a spring on the system.
Alterkation is not "junk" either.
Nor is your system junk. It seems close to stock geometry with just the anti dive taken out it. And you chose to attach the spring at the end of the LCA. And chose to use a coil type spring. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post6622247
68Plymouths'
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 06:51 AM
It was cool to read Mopar Actions Bob Tarzolli(sp)bio about the Trans Am E-body days and how Gurney insisted on taking all the anti-dive out of those cars against Bobs better judgement. SO he did and they drove like sh** and were quickly put back the way they were.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 07:05 AM
Quote:
It was cool to read Mopar Actions Bob Tarzolli(sp)bio about the Trans Am E-body days and how Gurney insisted on taking all the anti-dive out of those cars against Bobs better judgement. SO he did and they drove like sh** and were quickly put back the way they were.
We had Bob Tarozzi in person at Spring Fling Speed Festival a while back and I heard that story first hand.
Bob eluded that Dan Gurney wasn't real helpful testing. He had such a great talent to compensate for the a race car with issues that it was tough to judge what adjustments were good or bad. It was more helpful having Swede test it.
Posted By: 68Plymouths
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 01:55 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Must be slow days in Milford, watching the grass grow and paint dry.
Always!!!!
Just because I'm , doesn't mean that my points are pointless. I just know that no matter what points are made there are some purists that believe the MOPAR torsion bar suspension is the greatest thing ever. If you want it on your car, that's fine with me. But why knock what someone else is doing??? The Alterkation seems to to be a pretty darn good system. I've hatcheted up my Satellite by building a tubular/coil-over front suspension that corrects the geometry issues in the original design, but someone on here looked at the pics and said it was "junk." (Frankenduster, I believe ) I invite him to come here and see it in person. Things are kinda slow in corn country, since the corn hasn't even tasselled out yet, so I have plenty of time.
I'm not saying the T-bars are the greatest ever. Just ONE of the ways to do put a spring on the system.
Alterkation is not "junk" either.
Nor is your system junk. It seems close to stock geometry with just the anti dive taken out it. And you chose to attach the spring at the end of the LCA. And chose to use a coil type spring. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post6622247
68Plymouths'
I've also changed the pick-up points for the tie-rods to minimize bump steer. Just finished painting and am doing final assembly. I still need to finish the brake lines and align it to see what it's going to do. My whole idea was to correct the basic issues with the stock system without having to buy a $3,000+ k-member. I saw the Hotchkiss a-arms for $800 and thought I could do it a lot cheaper (not counting my time of course) Plus I like cutting s**t apart and doing my own thing. I probably have $200 in materials, not counting the coil-overs, which were semi-donated to the project by Slantzilla. 
Posted By: Greg55_99
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 03:16 PM
Quote:
I've also changed the pick-up points for the tie-rods to minimize bump steer. Just finished painting and am doing final assembly. I still need to finish the brake lines and align it to see what it's going to do. My whole idea was to correct the basic issues with the stock system without having to buy a $3,000+ k-member. I saw the Hotchkiss a-arms for $800 and thought I could do it a lot cheaper (not counting my time of course) Plus I like cutting s**t apart and doing my own thing. I probably have $200 in materials, not counting the coil-overs, which were semi-donated to the project by Slantzilla.
I just picked up this crossmember. I'm like you.... I like doing my own thing (within reason....)
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post7241678
Greg
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 03:17 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Must be slow days in Milford, watching the grass grow and paint dry.
Always!!!!
Just because I'm , doesn't mean that my points are pointless. I just know that no matter what points are made there are some purists that believe the MOPAR torsion bar suspension is the greatest thing ever. If you want it on your car, that's fine with me. But why knock what someone else is doing??? The Alterkation seems to to be a pretty darn good system. I've hatcheted up my Satellite by building a tubular/coil-over front suspension that corrects the geometry issues in the original design, but someone on here looked at the pics and said it was "junk." (Frankenduster, I believe ) I invite him to come here and see it in person. Things are kinda slow in corn country, since the corn hasn't even tasselled out yet, so I have plenty of time.
I'm not saying the T-bars are the greatest ever. Just ONE of the ways to do put a spring on the system.
Alterkation is not "junk" either.
Nor is your system junk. It seems close to stock geometry with just the anti dive taken out it. And you chose to attach the spring at the end of the LCA. And chose to use a coil type spring. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post6622247
68Plymouths'
I've also changed the pick-up points for the tie-rods to minimize bump steer. Just finished painting and am doing final assembly. I still need to finish the brake lines and align it to see what it's going to do. My whole idea was to correct the basic issues with the stock system without having to buy a $3,000+ k-member. I saw the Hotchkiss a-arms for $800 and thought I could do it a lot cheaper (not counting my time of course) Plus I like cutting s**t apart and doing my own thing. I probably have $200 in materials, not counting the coil-overs, which were semi-donated to the project by Slantzilla.
Any plans for bracing the upper shock mount? And for using the LCA "pin hole", did you make a tapered sleeve for the bolt so it wouldn't be able to walk in the rear mounting location? And lastly, will the strut rod be able to provide enough "anti-roll" to the LCA? Seems like the LCA could twist pretty easily. Other than that seems like a pretty cool design as long as you cage the rest of the car.
Posted By: 68Plymouths
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 03:37 PM
I am planning on bracing the upper shock mount. The lower is held into the k-member with a 2" long threaded bung welded into the k-member and I've added a bracket to the frame (not seen in this picture) to make the LCA mounting a double shear point. The LCA arm is isn't on a heim, it is a rubber bushed mounting sold by Speedway. I've added a jam nut, so there will be some deflection in the bushing, but I don't anticipate it will roll much.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Garage-Sale-QA1-Adventure-Series-Rock-Ends-w-Bushing,9387.html
Posted By: B-Body Bull
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 04:26 PM
Posted By: 68Plymouths
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 04:34 PM
Yep, and here is the rear suspension for a sprint car, try it in your street car, baby...
http://www.spitzracing.com/index_files/Page724.htm
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 07:45 PM
Quote:
I've added a jam nut, so there will be some deflection in the bushing, but I don't anticipate it will roll much.
I'd look into a secondary way to stabilize that LCA from rotating. A jam nut and that strut may not be enough for extended use. I would also be inclined to think that after the suspension cycles a few thousand times, that jam nut may find its way loose. That said however, as far as race car suspensions, I like what you did there.
Posted By: 68Plymouths
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/15/12 10:23 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I've added a jam nut, so there will be some deflection in the bushing, but I don't anticipate it will roll much.
I'd look into a secondary way to stabilize that LCA from rotating. A jam nut and that strut may not be enough for extended use. I would also be inclined to think that after the suspension cycles a few thousand times, that jam nut may find its way loose. That said however, as far as race car suspensions, I like what you did there.
Thanks for the suggestion. The suspension is going to have to be maintained at regular intervals because the heims are going to have to be cleaned and lubed. I'll be sure to check the jam nut and keep an eye on the lca rotating. Also, the lower coil-over mount helps to keep it from rotating.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/16/12 02:15 AM
Sure looks pretty.
How high are your roll centers lining up to be?
Did you maintain the stock camber gain percentage or change that for more/less?
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/16/12 08:42 AM
I only have one question.... What's a fued ? I don't have a Phd.. Is it a new language? I work with quite a few folks with Phd's, I have a brother & a sister with Phd's... I wouldn't say they all have perfect spelling, but I will say I've never seen such an obvious misspelling posted on an open forum by any of them...
FWIW I read most of the first post & I've read most of this post... I haven't seen folks saying anything negative about the Altercation stuff, I've seen people question the need or if there is any real gain but I don't see that as negative yet I see a number of posts slamming the OE stuff & torsion bars... The only people in a "Feud" appear to be the Altercation supporters...
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/16/12 11:10 AM
Quote:
The only people in a "Feud" appear to be the Altercation supporters...
This is Part Deux. You missed the original thread that got deleted.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/16/12 04:41 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The only people in a "Feud" appear to be the Altercation supporters...
This is Part Deux. You missed the original thread that got deleted.
No, I did not miss the first thread... The majority of people saying something if flawed are the Altercation supporters sayin the stock stuff doesn't work well....
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/16/12 05:00 PM
Quote:
No, I did not miss the first thread... The majority of people saying something if flawed are the Altercation supporters sayin the stock stuff doesn't work well....
I think if it is one thing that has been proven, the faster/fastest cars out there are cars using the stock based components. At out last Auto cross event, The fastest car was our Challenger on 200 TW tires, and I was fourth in the Road Runner, also on 200 TW tires. The two cars that beat me were 1st gen Camaros, both with full C6 vette underpinnings, and one of them was on R-Comps. Both the Challenger and I never did a run without passengers. The field was pretty varied, had new muscle from the big three, an 09 ACR Viper, and plenty of older muscle.
I think that the only black eye given to my/our record was at the 2011 OUSCI, since the Road Runner was completely unprepared for that event, but I still beat out both the other Mopars there overall in points.
That said, our cars, on leafs and torsion bars are still more capable than most other cars. At our track days, The Road Runner has no issues keeping up with Spectre's Carbon Camaro, and many of our other cars. I'll be tearing the car down a bit next month, for more tire, more motor and less spring/more sway bar in the front as well as seeing if we can get the trans shifting a bit better (high speed down shifts are no bueno right now).
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/16/12 06:16 PM
Quote:
... less spring/more sway bar in the front ...
That's what I do with my AMX, works for me. Also did it with my '71 Plymouth Sebring way back in the '70s, worked great on the street also, soft ride and took the corners great. Even handled the 1/4 mile oval at midnight one race weekend. The guys I was on their pit crew said I did better with my street car then the 'stock' race cars did, even tho I was the only car out there. 
Posted By: Devil
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/16/12 07:48 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The only people in a "Feud" appear to be the Altercation supporters...
This is Part Deux. You missed the original thread that got deleted.
It was not deleted. It was moved to the tech archives.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0&fpart=1
Ryan
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/17/12 12:53 AM
Quote:
Quote:
No, I did not miss the first thread... The majority of people saying something if flawed are the Altercation supporters sayin the stock stuff doesn't work well....
I think if it is one thing that has been proven, the faster/fastest cars out there are cars using the stock based components. At out last Auto cross event, The fastest car was our Challenger on 200 TW tires, and I was fourth in the Road Runner, also on 200 TW tires. The two cars that beat me were 1st gen Camaros, both with full C6 vette underpinnings, and one of them was on R-Comps. Both the Challenger and I never did a run without passengers. The field was pretty varied, had new muscle from the big three, an 09 ACR Viper, and plenty of older muscle.
I think that the only black eye given to my/our record was at the 2011 OUSCI, since the Road Runner was completely unprepared for that event, but I still beat out both the other Mopars there overall in points.
That said, our cars, on leafs and torsion bars are still more capable than most other cars. At our track days, The Road Runner has no issues keeping up with Spectre's Carbon Camaro, and many of our other cars. I'll be tearing the car down a bit next month, for more tire, more motor and less spring/more sway bar in the front as well as seeing if we can get the trans shifting a bit better (high speed down shifts are no bueno right now).
Track times and speeds are quantifiable measurements that cannot lie........
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/20/12 03:54 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again; IMO, While they may provide some improvements in geometry the biggest gain in "feel" that most aftermarket suspensions provide is because knowledgeable engineering types are specifying spring and shock rates that better achieve a more neuteral balance to the roll percentages than what most laymen can put together themselves. This, in turn, is interpreted as a superior package over the stock longitudal layout. While they are typically incrementally better, they usually are not quantum leap better. The exception possibly being the bent bar set ups, which were a pooch right out of the gate.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/20/12 04:15 PM
Quote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again; IMO, While they may provide some improvements in geometry the biggest gain in "feel" that most aftermarket suspensions provide is because knowledgeable engineering types are specifying spring and shock rates that better achieve a more neuteral balance to the roll percentages than what most laymen can put together themselves. This, in turn, is interpreted as a superior package over the stock longitudal layout. While they are typically incrementally better, they usually are not quantum leap better. The exception possibly being the bent bar set ups, which were a pooch right out of the gate.
Worth saying again, but if you could make it sound "cooler", they just might start to listen, but probably not. 
Posted By: Dos Snails
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/25/12 02:54 AM
That's why I built my own crap... No one to blame but me....
Posted By: Dos Snails
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/25/12 02:58 AM
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/25/12 03:04 AM
So what are we looking at, are those c7 spindles?
Posted By: Dos Snails
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/25/12 03:10 AM
Corvette C5/C6 stuff... It all started when Xv did not want to just sell me their K member. So I have about $700 in it & alot of time learning..
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/25/12 03:13 AM
Can you "attach" the printouts for easier reading?
Looks neat
Posted By: Dos Snails
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/25/12 03:25 AM
I don't have it on my hard drive but will transfer it though..
Posted By: Dos Snails
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/25/12 03:34 AM
Posted By: Daniel Niclas
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/25/12 04:25 AM
Thank you for your feedback, I find it to be very valuable. I have a lot of respect for someone able to make the stock equipment perform so well. Clearly you have a good understanding of this system. Initially, I ordered all Hotchkis gear for front and rear. After waiting ~4 months for the parts to arrive, I started to explore the RMS and XV equipment, primarily at the urging of a friend of mine. Ultimately, I went with a combination of RMS front and XV in the rear.
I have no affiliation with any vendor, parts manufacturer nor do I have any business of my own. But I have learned that one of the best ways to get information is to ask. I put a lot of value in the real world experiences of others. There are many factors and variables in play when trying to get a good lap time. I have driven my car in mock-up and its drivability and performance exceeded my expectation. My Challenger will now be blown back apart for body/paint and final assembly. Hopefully, by the end of the year or early next year I can meet you at the track and we can see how things turn out. If something breaks or blows up, I will tow it home and rebuild it.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/25/12 07:04 AM
Quote:
Thank you for your feedback, I find it to be very valuable. I have a lot of respect for someone able to make the stock equipment perform so well. Clearly you have a good understanding of this system. Initially, I ordered all Hotchkis gear for front and rear. After waiting ~4 months for the parts to arrive, I started to explore the RMS and XV equipment, primarily at the urging of a friend of mine. Ultimately, I went with a combination of RMS front and XV in the rear.
I have no affiliation with any vendor, parts manufacturer nor do I have any business of my own. But I have learned that one of the best ways to get information is to ask. I put a lot of value in the real world experiences of others. There are many factors and variables in play when trying to get a good lap time. I have driven my car in mock-up and its drivability and performance exceeded my expectation. My Challenger will now be blown back apart for body/paint and final assembly. Hopefully, by the end of the year or early next year I can meet you at the track and we can see how things turn out. If something breaks or blows up, I will tow it home and rebuild it.
Run whatcha brung. It's all good.
We have a great time a Spring Fling Speed Festival. 64 slant 6 valiant to Viper GTS's. 500+ cid Hemi B-bodies to Rampage mini pickup trucks.
Doesn't matter what's under your car. Heck bolt some skate boards under it and hammer down!
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 06/25/12 09:23 AM
Quote:
...I ordered all Hotchkis gear for front and rear. After waiting ~4 months for the parts to arrive...
That is no good. Would you care to share your story here or via PM to me?
Glad to hear you got something figured out in the end. Look forward to seeing it on the track!
Posted By: Daniel Niclas
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 07/02/12 08:57 AM
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the note. It was indeed the Hotchkis E-Max Challenger that inspired my build which started November 2010. I decided to upgrade the car retaining as much of the original appearance and spirit as possible. For suspension I chose to go all Hotchkis.
It seemed that 2011 was not a good year for inventory at many businesses. The wait time for most orders was significant. It took over 8 months for my TKO 5-speed to arrive. If I recall correctly, after ~4 months, the Hotchkis leaf springs had not arrived yet and my attention was being re-directed to the XV equipment and also RMS.
Despite the wait and ultimate change of mind, my opinion of the high quality of Hotchkis parts and my overall respect for your dedication to motorsports has not changed.
Best,
Daniel
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 07/20/12 06:24 AM
Quote:
It was cool to read Mopar Actions Bob Tarzolli(sp)bio about the Trans Am E-body days and how Gurney insisted on taking all the anti-dive out of those cars against Bobs better judgement. SO he did and they drove like sh** and were quickly put back the way they were.
Terrozzi (sp?) also was forced to try a smallblock with Chevy ball-stud rockers. Same outcome.
To me, the stock suspension has barely enough anti-dive, esp. if the car is lowered. Bottom the suspension in a hard corner as you are turning in while braking and you'll know why.
Rick
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/20/12 06:34 AM
Too bad the poster is right...turning into a feud. I never intended that. The older post said "ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??" - but I never said that! Just to clear the air (again), here's what I published (with drawings, etc.)
**************************************************
SUBSTITUTE SUSPENSION
I have found a couple consecutive negative remarks about RMS products published in recent issues of Mopar Action and I am seeking to understand why. This came as a surprise to me because I can find no negative data on any RMS product no matter where I look. Many builds, including my own, that are pursuing handling related performance upgrades often include RMS.
A much smaller percentage use XV (due to cost and mods) and even less Magnum Force. Bill at RMS really seems to have his heart dedicated to building quality products capable of improving street and road race performance with more than 10 years of product application to support it. If you have experience with RMS quality problems, or
data to support the “questionable” status, please share it with us enthusiasts seeking to get our Mopars onto the tracks. This way we can make the necessary improvements, mods etc. to appropriately benefit from these kinds of upgrades. There should
not be fear, uncertainty and doubt between fellow enthusiasts. I understand how the RMS system distributes cornering forces on our car’s infrastructure differently from the T-bar but is there data of failures resulting from this? I can’t find a single case of failure of any kind. If you know of any please share and help us understand what is “questionable” about these products. Maybe together we can make the perfect solution.
My ’71 Challenger is using XV in the rear and RMS in front with all XV bracing products including rad support, inner fender bracing and connectors.
Thank you for your help and expertise.
—Daniel Niclas, San Jose, CA
Dan—
On a drag car, the RMS AlterKtion stuff is great—takes out lots of weight, makes more exhaust room. But there’s a laundry list of potential problems with using this on the street and/or road course. In no particular order...
> Heim joints—anybody’s heim joints— just do not last on the street. Even with added boots, they still don’t come anywhere close to OEM tie rod end durability. And, as an artifact of their construction, they are much more prone to total failure than an OEM tie rod end.
> The cantilevered outer tie rod end, spaced up with a stack of shims and spacers (for bumpsteer correction, no doubt out of necessity, because the rack could not be installed correctly due to interference, and a “generic” steering arm is used), is a scary potential catastrophic failure point. The loads on that bolt, should you be in a hard corner and hit a pothole, are astronomical. Some photos I have seen show the spacer tube welded to the steering arm, which may offer partial mitigation.
> The suspension (spring) loads are now taken by the front rails. They were, in the OEM Chrysler design, primarily, imparted to the torsion bar crossmember. On a drag car, where you’ll have a roll cage tube passing thru the firewall and tied into the top of what was the shock tower, the problem is pretty well mitigated. But on a street car, where you seldom see that, you’ll be inducing lots more chassis flex. Just hook up a small video camera and watch how the steering shaft telescopes over bumps. The Chrysler OEM system had a lightweight front structure with springs (T-bars) mounted low and rearward, damn near “Formula One” technology. Why give that up?
> The “K”-member is no longer a “K”, drastically reducing its ability to prevent the front rails from “parallelograming”. This would significantly reduce crashworthiness (especially in an offset frontal crash) as well as reducing overall chassis rigidity.
> I believe that the spindle diameter is smaller than stock. In 1973, Chrysler increased the spindle diameter as weight, tire size, wheel width, etc., were all increasing.
> The frame thru-bolts will crush the frame as the bolts are tightened. There should be tubes welded into the frame, EG: stock transmission crossmember, etc.
> Every pix I have seen shows brake hubs that have no way to pilot the wheel. ESPECIALLY road racing, hub-centricity is paramount.
> There’s near-zero compliance—nothing to replace the OEM tension-strut bushing. Instantaneous impact loads are sky-high, exacerbating the above negatives. And the effective footprint of the LCA, which, in the OEM design, included that tension strut, is greatly reduced (nearly 50%) in the RMS
design, further reducing its ability to safely
handle impacts.
> The steering column’s pot coupling is eliminated. The pot coupling is what compensates for chassis flex; deleting it means that one of two things will occur over time/ abuse: Either the nylon shear pin on ’67-up non-E-bodies will break, or the upper column bearing will fail (possible on any Mopar).
> You’ll note that there is not one weld in the factory suspension components. By design. That’s not to necessarily say that welds are always bad, but, if they can be avoided, you’ve eliminated one area where, unless each weld is X-rayed, you just don’t know what to expect over the long term.
Mr. Reilly has always thought I’ve had it in for him. That’s simply not true, I think he has designed a very good drag-race suspension conversion. It’s just when you take a drag race front end, sell it for street use, with nothing even close to factory durability and stress testing, that I worry. Lack of reported or known failures isn’t proof of anything: Space shuttles made many flights “before,” the Silver Bridge carried tens of millions of cars safely, then one day it simply vanished into the Ohio River, killing hundreds, to cite just two well-known examples. When a fleet of test cars have spent 250,000 miles each being hammered at a PG, then get back to me. This applies to the competitor’s products as well. If I didn’t point these things out, I’d be complacent. Reilly, in fact, does point this out, go read the disclaimer that is in the RMS documentation:
“....By purchasing this product, the buyer/end user assumes all risks associated with its use and agrees to having the proper skills for it’s [sic] installation. Reilly MotorSports Inc. and its suppliers will not be held responsible, liable or accountable for any injury, damage, loss, penalties, or fines that occur from using this product in any manner.”
For my dime, upgrades to the basic T-bar system re the way to go. Firm Feel, XV’s level one, and even Hotchkis have parts and packages that get the job done, although Hotchkis’ swapping (giving up) brake anti-dive* for more camber gain doesn’t thrill me either. If you’re building a straight-line-only drag car, your opinion may vary.
Guys often confuse “race” parts with “durability.” Often the opposite is true. EG: Aluminum con rods and rocker arms, “race” axle shafts and gears, tiny radiators and fans, super high-lift cams, and many more. A lot of guys, of course, do get by with race parts on the street. How? Simple: The car sees 10 cruise-ins or 300 miles a year, smooth roads, 40 MPH, etc.
If I don’t take care to see that there’s some kind of disclaimer in articles featuring cars with these suspension conversions, we could be seen (legally) as endorsing them—which we are not.
To boil this down: Again, I’m sure the RMS setup has good geometry (even has anti-dive)and drives just fine. On a drag car, the extra header and oil pan real estate, and reduced weight, would be the hot ticket. It is the specter of sudden, catastrophic failure in “real street” use that worries me.
*— For more on this, see p. 67.
************************
End paste job...
Posted By: bwdst6
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/21/12 12:26 AM
Does anyone have any actual experience running a mopar with an Alterkation on a road coarse or autocross track out of curiosity?
Posted By: A57_RT
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/22/12 10:45 PM
I would be more then happy to offer up my alterk car for real world testing at High Plains Raceway and would let a qualified person drive it.
Quote:
Does anyone have any actual experience running a mopar with an Alterkation on a road coarse or autocross track out of curiosity?
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/22/12 11:11 PM
What exactly would running it on the road course prove? Well balanced suspension systems are those that produce linear and predicatable feel for the driver while utilizing wheel rates that compliment each other and work in conjunction with the shock valving. The grip of the tires and the resulting lap times could care less about the type of springs and suspension system applying the force.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/22/12 11:28 PM
Quote:
I would be more then happy to offer up my alterk car for real world testing at High Plains Raceway and would let a qualified person drive it.
Quote:
Does anyone have any actual experience running a mopar with an Alterkation on a road coarse or autocross track out of curiosity?
That's a generous offer, but testing IMO would be difficult , costly, time consuming and of limited value, because, it would have to be "blind" imo, and to swap front ends on same car too time consuming and track conditions, etc too variable, and setting up two cars identical, except for front ends near impossible, without a nascar budget. However maybe driving impressions could be formed, but I don't know if i would call it a test.
Posted By: A57_RT
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/23/12 12:42 AM
JH-C ya cant win here on this board no matter what one does, yes I have a oem front end that could be swapped out in approx 2 hours, 4 bolts and 2 column bolts and 2 brake lines.
My "Modified Street" alterk car is currently setup for that type track. Putting an oem front end under the same car would be back stepping 10x over a factory car with the way the rest of the car is setup.
With all the alterk bashing going on fact or fiction I simply offered up a well balanced car that ive alot of blood sweat and tears in and alot of money for some laps.
Maybe a factory oem (street) kit car vs a modified would be nice.
I run the alterk on twisty mountain roads on a reg bassis, on the 8 mile drive down the mountain there is one 1/4 mile straight and the rest are just several hundred feet between corners but yet in reading some would consider it a death trap/death trip doing so.
Id still offer the car up for testing, but it seems if ones not willing to offer up an alterk system for a full out fail crash testing type deal to show unproven faults in the system the alterk bashing will just continue with comments and speculation.
It is the specter of sudden, catastrophic failure in “real street” use that worries me.
So us alterk owners have a death wish, so it seems.....I offered it up for track testing due to the safer environment that would put more loads and stress then any street drive time would.
As for....Heim joints—anybody’s heim joints— just do not last on the street. Even with added boots, they still don’t come anywhere close to OEM tie rod end durability.
Average tie rod end replacement for the 2006 dodge charger right at 40k, average tie rod end replacement on a 2004 dodge neon 49k....
From the RMS site...We build heavy-duty parts that are durable enough to last for tens of thousands of miles - some of our first systems from 1999 have seen over 60,000 miles and counting - on the original bushings and rod ends they were shipped with.
The neg comments and references to the space shuttle and bridges falling into a river is loooong stretch, might as well put earthquakes and the sun dying in the mix as well.
I wonder how Bill R deals with all the deaths hes caused...NOT.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/23/12 02:44 AM
I don't know about the not winning situation. But back OT, I am not sure what the set-up would be in a 2 hr swap, does that include a guess alignment? And the most important question I guess is performance, and just the weight difference would likely be a plus, lots of variables, that give almost anybody the results they hold dear. For instance, take the same car are you running as many laps as needed. Let car sit for 2? hrs, and see what the new lap times are, any difference would have to explained and accounted for.
FWIW, I own an Alter K, and for what it is, I think it is proper solution and improvement. I am however trying to be open minded and fair.
Keep trying to win
Posted By: A57_RT
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/23/12 03:13 AM
Maybe the win was a bad choice of words, no worse then the space shuttle or bridges falling but back on topic, the front t bar setup is an easy install if its the same one that came off the car is used and when solid bushings are used its really not a hard setup to get back on a car, and would be more accurate then the rubber bushings.
Ive had the oem front end on the rack, set it up pull it off drive around the block, put it back on the rack and its way off due to the poor design.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/23/12 03:57 AM
http://www.race-cardrivers.com/Chrysler%...0Trans%20Am.htmIt appears that consideration of a transverse mounted T bar setup was always considered more of a pedestrian / commuter type application and when a more spirited or racing application of the T bar was considered with the F body Mopars the return to the E body setup was done.
Would comparing a car that is optimized with a complete set of parts that say include an alterkation and then the swap out is performed to install the factory transverse T bar K member with XX,XXXX miles compared to an AlterK with only maybe a few thousand miles and not many years of service?
It would be like putting a Used set of these shoes from 1975 onto a top NBA player today inplace of the shoes he currently wears:
http://www.zappos.com/converse-kids-chuck-taylor-all-star-core-hi-toddler-youth-black
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/23/12 04:16 AM
Again, what would running an AlterK around a road track really prove? Like I said before, the road feel a suspension produces is the combination of components. Whether those components are torsion, coil, leaf, or air, so long as they are balanced to the right frequencies and dampened to match, they will perform well.
I'm not here to bash the AlterK, it is a really nice set up, albeit more than I'm willing to pay, but still a very nice set up. However, when compared to a longitudal torsion bar set, its biggest advantage is simply lighter weight and more available spring rates that are easy to change. Because of the the radical difference in layout, there is no doubting the advantage of the AlterK over the stock FJM suspension. But very few guys on here are dyed in the wool FJM fans and I'm sure even then, most of them will admit the bent bar suspension leaves a lot to be desired.
The Kit Car Racing Program is a whole nuther animal and is not in any way related to the street cars of the time at all, except they used production sheet metal. On top of that, it began several years before the F body was even introduced and was rooted in development with Petty Enterprises. No way at all was it even going to consider a transverse set up, but they would certainly be willing to reskin the cars in whatever sheetmetal the factory was producing. If Chrysler wasn't so broke and in bankruptcy in the 80s, I don't doubt you would have seen the kit cars continue with Laser and Daytona bodies.
Posted By: A57_RT
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/23/12 09:32 AM
TC I do understand where your coming from, I owned a very nice low mile Petty Street version and other then the 8 inch rims and the rear sway bar and a little bit different steering box only the 360-4 made it a better car on a marginal level.
Soon I will have some contrast as the current project oem K is all firm feel parts including there new t bars and will be about as maxed out as an oem trans/tor K can get.
Why I get a bit bothered by the so called issues with the alterk is since I preped the unit as best as I could when new, epoxy primed, sealer, then alot of top coat then cleared, it cleans up like new.
So many are under the inpression that people with the alterk front end do not really drive or push there cars hard on the street with no issues.
You know my environment here at 8400 ft, on a dirt road but yet ive driven/beat the system from -26 below (When the roads are dry) to 90 plus above,and snow and mud inbetween those times. With proper care the unit looks as new as it did when installed with the exception of the blue rotors from hard driving.
I can honestly say that there has been a couple of times if it were not for the well balanced setup of the RMS, the heavy oem front end would of wrecked me.
Now back to the oem K with all firm feel products I feel will be a good setup with all the iso parts removed from the car and I really look forward to some hard driving with that as well because in its own way I feel it will be leaps and bounds over the oem parts, which your fully correct as they were not meant to be a real performance setup however If I reacall the iso setups started in 73??? on most mopars, however I may be wrong.
The RMS is marketed in two forms, street/strip and short of wrecking the car I feel ive pushed mine as hard as anyone could without issue.
Dirt roads, potholes, severe temp changes, mine has seen it all and I do inspect it very very often due to these factors.
If my wife was to read RE-s opinion of how unsafe the system is on the street and in addition to the adverse conditions in which I thrash it on a regular basis she would probably try to get me to park the car and thats just mis-info in my opinion and very much unproven other then speculation.
When the quality of even the welds on the unit are questioned id look to the factory welds that look like they were done with a non gassed wire feed welder, well they are wire feed welds and very poor, id be worried more about the 70s welding many times over a modern welder used by real fab guy, not a line worker doing floor pan seam welds on the unibody.
Also although not directly adressed the fmj-s were designed to take the loads not put on the older long t bar setups.
Ive seen many rusted out lower front frames on the fmj-s but never any cracked, or distorted ones that were not weak from rust.
My offering up a car with the RMS street system was to try to help put down some of the stigma that the system is not safe on the streets.
Id not offer it up to go off roading just to see how much abuse it wouldnt see under hard but practicle use.
But I can say if id treid to do what ive done with an oem front end over the past 4 years or so id have a wrecked car.
Even with there problems at least the F body cars got sold and to the point where some dealerships were adding the superpack parts at the dealership to fill the needs of the public where other older mopars sat on lots for long periods of time begging to be bought.
And other older mopars rusted at a fair rate as well, we bought f body cars to drive for winter cars beacuse they were cheap and not as rusted out as most equally priced dusters just a few years older.
Did I say adverse conditions???? Look at pic...the cars going on a 15 year old paint job and one rear quarter replaced then as well and still does well at the local shows and rust is not an issue as most would think.
But here again the car does have an 8 point and connectors, 4 wheel disc,QA1 doubles and alot of other junk that might factor into my good results vs just an oem car with the unit bolted on....who knows.
Posted By: DJVCuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/23/12 02:06 PM
Quote:
Does anyone have any actual experience running a mopar with an Alterkation on a road coarse or autocross track out of curiosity?
more then a couple listed here:
LINK
Posted By: bwdst6
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 07/24/12 07:09 PM
Quote:
more then a couple listed here:
LINK
It would be really interesting if someone would take their alterk equiped vehicle and enter the One Lap of America with it! 
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/18/12 07:54 PM
Quote:
In fact, I can't recall seeing a torsion bar suspension on ANY race car that takes corners in the last 25 years. If it is so f-ing good, you would think someone would use it...
I was happy to lurk until this.
Against ~80 cars, many of them serious, factory Vipers, Porsches, Check Mallet's Vette (pro driven), Lambos, Ferraris, and on and on, we had the second-fastest time at the Glen, beaten only by a Mosler Raptor (2,000 lb Vette-powered carbon fiber tub).
All OEM geometry, even stock UCAs. Leafs. No rear sway bar. Only 15" wheels. And, yes, torsion bars.
Rick
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/18/12 09:38 PM
Quote:
Quote:
In fact, I can't recall seeing a torsion bar suspension on ANY race car that takes corners in the last 25 years. If it is so f-ing good, you would think someone would use it...
I was happy to lurk until this.
Against ~80 cars, many of them serious, factory Vipers, Porsches, Check Mallet's Vette (pro driven), Lambos, Ferraris, and on and on, we had the second-fastest time at the Glen, beaten only by a Mosler Raptor (2,000 lb Vette-powered carbon fiber tub).
All OEM geometry, even stock UCAs. Leafs. No rear sway bar. Only 15" wheels. And, yes, torsion bars.
Rick
Imagine how embarrassed all this high end engineering and pro drivers only to be behind the time of a stock torsion bar equipped Valiant....
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/18/12 09:45 PM
I think you cheated.
You 'gottem' while they were laughing.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/18/12 09:53 PM
Quote:
I was happy to lurk until this.
Against ~80 cars, many of them serious, factory Vipers, Porsches, Check Mallet's Vette (pro driven), Lambos, Ferraris, and on and on, we had the second-fastest time at the Glen, beaten only by a Mosler Raptor (2,000 lb Vette-powered carbon fiber tub).
All OEM geometry, even stock UCAs. Leafs. No rear sway bar. Only 15" wheels. And, yes, torsion bars.
Rick
hey rick are you using a aftermarket sway bar on the car? have youu tried it both with and without a rear bar? I'm just curious. I've read a few guys prefer running without rear bars..
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/18/12 11:18 PM
Quote:
. I've read a few guys prefer running without rear bars..
Keep reading you will discover a rear bar only has three functional purposes:
1. To allow speedy fine chassis tuning usually at the track
2. To fix another more serious chassis issue
3. To impress your friends
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/18/12 11:47 PM
http://www.ehow.com/how_6005409_correct-wheel-drive-over_steer-problems.htmlCheck out points 4 and 6 in the over steer article posted above.
In point #6 they suggest to lower the rear suspension and raise the front suspension to dial back the amount of over steering issues with a rear wheel drive car.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/19/12 02:26 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I was happy to lurk until this.
Against ~80 cars, many of them serious, factory Vipers, Porsches, Check Mallet's Vette (pro driven), Lambos, Ferraris, and on and on, we had the second-fastest time at the Glen, beaten only by a Mosler Raptor (2,000 lb Vette-powered carbon fiber tub).
All OEM geometry, even stock UCAs. Leafs. No rear sway bar. Only 15" wheels. And, yes, torsion bars.
Rick
hey rick are you using a aftermarket sway bar on the car? have youu tried it both with and without a rear bar? I'm just curious. I've read a few guys prefer running without rear bars..
When I first screwed the car together (circa early 1980s) I installed a stock A-body rear bar (5/8"), along with decambered S/S leafs (still on there to this day), 383 T-bars, and a stock front bar. It oversteered scarily enough on the street that I pulled the rear bar. Never went back.
Remember, there was virtually no aftermarket stuff back then.
Today, rear suspension is unchanged except for quadrashocks. Up front, bigger T-bars and a 1" sway bar, along with Viper (tie rod end-style) swaybar links (amazing improvement). Koni shocks on all 4 corners. Frame connex. That's about it.
Rick
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/19/12 02:30 AM
Quote:
Imagine how embarrassed all this high end engineering and pro drivers only to be behind the time of a stock torsion bar equipped Valiant....
You hadda see the looks on their faces when we were doing tire rotations, and they saw (rear) drums (rusty), leaf springs, and rusty stamped control arms. Priceless.
We were clocked at 163 MPH at the Glen's "bus stop", which, I am told, is quite a bit faster than the NASCAR guys.
Rick
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/19/12 03:59 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Imagine how embarrassed all this high end engineering and pro drivers only to be behind the time of a stock torsion bar equipped Valiant....
You hadda see the looks on their faces when we were doing tire rotations, and they saw (rear) drums (rusty), leaf springs, and rusty stamped control arms. Priceless.
We were clocked at 163 MPH at the Glen's "bus stop", which, I am told, is quite a bit faster than the NASCAR guys.
Rick
Was that the year you guys ran the "spray it and pray" 360 motor?
Posted By: Consulier
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/19/12 01:18 PM
No, we had a Barton built motor in '97 that could handle the nitrous. It was in '95 that we ran the welded piston motor.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/19/12 01:51 PM
Quote:
No, we had a Barton built motor in '97 that could handle the nitrous. It was in '95 that we ran the welded piston motor.
Yeah, we ran the Barton / X-block / iron head motor right to the end. One thing I always wanted to do was get more light-alloy parts in the engine. Said engine was the only component that ran counter to the Brick's secret performance "tricks", which were, in order of importance:
> Take out weight
> Take out weight
> Take out weight
Of course, having a driver with ice water coursing through his arteries doesn't hurt! Ask Kevin to tell you about the "104 deg. fever / writhing in pain on the grass / OK, screw it, I'll pass the Vipers and Porsches" story at the Glen.
Back to the AlterKation: Before getting down to personal slams, which always seems to happen here, please read what I wrote. Contrary to the original's post's headline, I never said that I hated it! I just wanted all to be aware of the potential failure points and be aware that, by showing some color-feature cars with it installed, we were also not condoning it.
I have been asked by some (face to face): "Would you have it in your car? The answer is one word, crystal clear: NO. To those who have it, and love it, I say: Great! I can certainly see the point of replacing the horrendous geometry of an F/J/M-body with something different; if I had one, it'd be back to longitudinal bars, although this isn't a bolt-in, to be sure.
Other posts have accused me of being stuck in the '60s and resistant to change. To those I simply say:
> Overdrive automatics 20+ years ago
> SMPI swaps back 15 years ago (j'yard and a'market)
> 5-speed swaps 10 years ago
> 6-speed electronic automatic swap (recently)
Then I get hammered for drifting from my "lowbuck" roots. How's SMPI using a gutted carb for a throttle body? Junkyard 12" rotor swap (over 25 years ago, still the standard). Or, just "yesterday", RWAL for $60?
Ok, my Kevlar vest is strapped on. The lions smell blood. Let the games begin.
Rick
Posted By: Chris2581
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/19/12 02:20 PM
IMHO..I think most quit looking at the entire package... i.e. the cars unibody,front K-frame structure and the suspension overall.If you look at the Chrysler "bibles",and go back to reading on Chrysler engineering,a lot of the answers are there.There is a REASON the cars were built in the way they were.Look how long the same lay out existed..because it WORKED! Can it be tweaked and improved a bit?? Sure,but overall if you modify the basic package,then trouble arises or problems occur in the long run.
Posted By: Dan Halen
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/19/12 03:35 PM
Quote:
Ok, my Kevlar vest is strapped on. The lions smell blood. Let the games begin.
Rick
You don't need Kevlar, they're shooting blanks.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/19/12 04:29 PM
Quote:
IMHO..I think most quit looking at the entire package... i.e. the cars unibody,front K-frame structure and the suspension overall.If you look at the Chrysler "bibles",and go back to reading on Chrysler engineering,a lot of the answers are there.There is a REASON the cars were built in the way they were.Look how long the same lay out existed..because it WORKED! Can it be tweaked and improved a bit?? Sure,but overall if you modify the basic package,then trouble arises or problems occur in the long run.
Quote:
You don't need Kevlar, they're shooting blanks.
Right on. And, thanks.
The biggest single improvement in "handling" technology since the late '60s is tires. I remember clearly when a buddy of mine bought a new '70 Duster 340, 4-speed, with Goodyear bias-belted 70-series rubber and took me for a backroad extra-legal-speed demo ride. I was blown away by the grip. And that was only a baby step!
Of course, as tire grip increases, you need more roll stiffness. And as roll stiffness increases, you need more platform rigidity. You sure don't need to reduce the torsional rigidity as AlterKation does. Of course, a well-designed roll cage can fix, or at least mask, that.
Gotta run. More later, no doubt.
Rick
Posted By: bwdst6
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 05:37 PM
Quote:
The upper left picture is somewhat misleading. If one is running an Alterk with a sway bar as is shown in your lower right picture. The sway bar will provide strength to the LCA in the fore and aft direction as you site as a concern. This will Increase the 8” dimension to 16” (I just measured mine) which is better than your OEM measurement.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 06:02 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The upper left picture is somewhat misleading. If one is running an Alterk with a sway bar as is shown in your lower right picture. The sway bar will provide strength to the LCA in the fore and aft direction as you site as a concern. This will Increase the 8” dimension to 16” (I just measured mine) which is better than your OEM measurement.
Sorry, there is no engineering basis to support the belief that the sway bar resists any front to rear forces on the lca.
And rick, hold on, I'm still loading
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 06:10 PM
It is flat impossible for a sway bar to have much influence on the fore and aft movement of the lower control arm. The links allow much too much movement, at least until they bind up, then they'll usually break unstead of holding the control arm in place.
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 06:15 PM
Bwdst6:
Sorry man, yours is not a valid arguement. The meager 3/8" end link bolt should not be considered as any form of support or strength.
Try again. Rick is right on with this one.
Posted By: bwdst6
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 06:19 PM
Quote:
It is flat impossible for a sway bar to have much influence on the fore and aft movement of the lower control arm. The links allow much too much movement...
The same argument can be made for the compliance of the forward bushing on the OEM set up.
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 06:24 PM
Quote:
Quote:
It is flat impossible for a sway bar to have much influence on the fore and aft movement of the lower control arm. The links allow much too much movement...
The same argument can be made for the compliance of the forward bushing on the OEM set up.
A whole lot less movement than any link.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 06:28 PM
Quote:
Quote:
It is flat impossible for a sway bar to have much influence on the fore and aft movement of the lower control arm. The links allow much too much movement...
The same argument can be made for the compliance of the forward bushing on the OEM set up.
Try this on for size:
Bolt a sway bar link, one end only, with bushings, onto a LCA or anything else handy. Try moving the other end perpendicular to the arm. See how easily it moves? That's the "added strength" (not) that it imparts to a LCA setup.
Now bolt a tension strut, with bushing, into a K. Try moving it fore and aft (parallel to the rod). You can barely move it -- in fact, it acts very similarly to a ball joint. That's how the stock setup locates the LCA against road impacts, braking forces, et. al.
Rick
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 06:33 PM
I think the man is pulling our chains, but comparing a bushed 3/4" diameter rod inline to its fore/aft "travel" to a 3/8" end link is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off base and out of context.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 06:33 PM
Guys, this sway bar revelation is a straw man argument that simply makes a tempest in a teapot, everybody gets it and the op will soon, lets get back to the more critical differing opinions
Posted By: bwdst6
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 06:43 PM
Quote:
Try this on for size:
Bolt a sway bar link, one end only, with bushings, onto a LCA or anything else handy. Try moving the other end perpendicular to the arm. See how easily it moves? That's the "added strength" (not) that it imparts to a LCA setup.
Now bolt a tension strut, with bushing, into a K. Try moving it fore and aft (parallel to the rod). You can barely move it -- in fact, it acts very similarly to a ball joint. That's how the stock setup locates the LCA against road impacts, braking forces, et. al.
Rick
So then given that have you welded lca stiffening plates to your Valiant?
Posted By: domingo
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 06:46 PM
how is it that the hotchkis setup gives up anti dive?
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 06:50 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Try this on for size:
Bolt a sway bar link, one end only, with bushings, onto a LCA or anything else handy. Try moving the other end perpendicular to the arm. See how easily it moves? That's the "added strength" (not) that it imparts to a LCA setup.
Now bolt a tension strut, with bushing, into a K. Try moving it fore and aft (parallel to the rod). You can barely move it -- in fact, it acts very similarly to a ball joint. That's how the stock setup locates the LCA against road impacts, braking forces, et. al.
Rick
So then given that have you welded lca stiffening plates to your Valiant?
Because a U shape will bend somewhat, a box won't very much at all if any.
Posted By: MPerry
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 07:03 PM
I thought sway bars were for controlling body roll?
I must have missed something about them doing double duty as strut rods.
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 07:12 PM
Maybe if they were solid bolted to the K and to the control arm.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 07:13 PM
Quote:
Maybe if they were solid bolted to the K and to the control arm.
Then it would be a strut rod.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 07:15 PM
Holy crap shamwow ! I don't have anything to add......
Posted By: bwdst6
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 08:35 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Try this on for size:
Bolt a sway bar link, one end only, with bushings, onto a LCA or anything else handy. Try moving the other end perpendicular to the arm. See how easily it moves? That's the "added strength" (not) that it imparts to a LCA setup.
Now bolt a tension strut, with bushing, into a K. Try moving it fore and aft (parallel to the rod). You can barely move it -- in fact, it acts very similarly to a ball joint. That's how the stock setup locates the LCA against road impacts, braking forces, et. al.
Rick
So then given that have you welded lca stiffening plates to your Valiant?
Because a U shape will bend somewhat, a box won't very much at all if any.
If the strut rod is indeed bearing most of the fore-aft load in an OEM setup then there will be very little bending moment in the lca (fore and aft direction). Assuming the strut rod is acting efficiently that is.
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 08:38 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Try this on for size:
Bolt a sway bar link, one end only, with bushings, onto a LCA or anything else handy. Try moving the other end perpendicular to the arm. See how easily it moves? That's the "added strength" (not) that it imparts to a LCA setup.
Now bolt a tension strut, with bushing, into a K. Try moving it fore and aft (parallel to the rod). You can barely move it -- in fact, it acts very similarly to a ball joint. That's how the stock setup locates the LCA against road impacts, braking forces, et. al.
Rick
So then given that have you welded lca stiffening plates to your Valiant?
Because a U shape will bend somewhat, a box won't very much at all if any.
If the strut rod is indeed bearing most of the fore-aft load in an OEM setup then there will be very little bending moment in the lca (fore and aft direction). Assuming the strut rod is acting efficiently that is.
bullcrap, sheetmetal bends and needs to be reinforced against flexing by welding a thick plate on the surface the rod is attached to, and/or by boxing the U shape of the control arm. At least on a performance vehicle. Stock street vehicle won't need it just to drive to the store and back, even a spirited drive.
Posted By: bwdst6
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 11:08 PM
Quote:
bullcrap, sheetmetal bends and needs to be reinforced against flexing by welding a thick plate on the surface the rod is attached to, and/or by boxing the U shape of the control arm. At least on a performance vehicle. Stock street vehicle won't need it just to drive to the store and back, even a spirited drive.
Ok, so what you're saying is that there are some structural concerns with the OEM design if it is run hard. Someone should post a diagram!
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 11:13 PM
Quote:
Quote:
bullcrap, sheetmetal bends and needs to be reinforced against flexing by welding a thick plate on the surface the rod is attached to, and/or by boxing the U shape of the control arm. At least on a performance vehicle. Stock street vehicle won't need it just to drive to the store and back, even a spirited drive.
Ok, so what you're saying is that there are some structural concerns with the OEM design if it is run hard. Someone should post a diagram!
Been posted, been discussed, don't know which thread but I think it was one of the first in this forum back when this forum was started. 
Pictures and all of the welded in mods.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 11:21 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Try this on for size:
Bolt a sway bar link, one end only, with bushings, onto a LCA or anything else handy. Try moving the other end perpendicular to the arm. See how easily it moves? That's the "added strength" (not) that it imparts to a LCA setup.
Now bolt a tension strut, with bushing, into a K. Try moving it fore and aft (parallel to the rod). You can barely move it -- in fact, it acts very similarly to a ball joint. That's how the stock setup locates the LCA against road impacts, braking forces, et. al.
Rick
So then given that have you welded lca stiffening plates to your Valiant?
Because a U shape will bend somewhat, a box won't very much at all if any.
If the strut rod is indeed bearing most of the fore-aft load in an OEM setup then there will be very little bending moment in the lca (fore and aft direction). Assuming the strut rod is acting efficiently that is.
bullcrap, sheetmetal bends and needs to be reinforced against flexing by welding a thick plate on the surface the rod is attached to, and/or by boxing the U shape of the control arm. At least on a performance vehicle. Stock street vehicle won't need it just to drive to the store and back, even a spirited drive.
I learned a long time ago to pick my battles, why are you bantering with a guy only hours ago who made an unsupported statement about sway bars, and imo this waste of electrons just muddys up a thread that was covering a lot of ground 
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/19/12 11:25 PM
Ya, true enough.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/20/12 03:03 AM
Quote:
how is it that the hotchkis setup gives up anti dive?
On their B and E body arms, the front pivot point of the upper control arm is lower than stock. The rear pivot point is in the stock location. I believe they still retain around 2 or 3 degrees of anti dive.
On the A body upper arm set, I believe they did not move the arm pivot points because the bumpsteer measurements were not as bad and as a result, it was not necessary.
I'd imagine Dan or Steve could provide the exact amount they took out.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/20/12 04:43 AM
Quote:
Quote:
how is it that the hotchkis setup gives up anti dive?
On their B and E body arms, the front pivot point of the upper control arm is lower than stock. The rear pivot point is in the stock location. I believe they still retain around 2 or 3 degrees of anti dive.
On the A body upper arm set, I believe they did not move the arm pivot points because the bumpsteer measurements were not as bad and as a result, it was not necessary.
I'd imagine Dan or Steve could provide the exact amount they took out.
I don't know exactly. Dan could contact thier engineering.
When I asked thier engineering they said there is anti dive still left in the car.
[edit]slots in frame keep UCA angle constant. [edit]
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/20/12 05:21 AM
I'll do the math tomorrow morning.
Posted By: rtidd440
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 08:28 AM
Quote:
Quote:
In fact, I can't recall seeing a torsion bar suspension on ANY race car that takes corners in the last 25 years. If it is so f-ing good, you would think someone would use it...
I was happy to lurk until this.
Against ~80 cars, many of them serious, factory Vipers, Porsches, Check Mallet's Vette (pro driven), Lambos, Ferraris, and on and on, we had the second-fastest time at the Glen, beaten only by a Mosler Raptor (2,000 lb Vette-powered carbon fiber tub).
All OEM geometry, even stock UCAs. Leafs. No rear sway bar. Only 15" wheels. And, yes, torsion bars.
Rick
Not to mention, if I recall correctly, the outright bias against your team and cars [recalling the turbo Omni] by the organizer and head cook and bottle washing rule changing at his whim dictator of said competition. Keep up the good work Rick!
I agree with Rick. When these cars are setup properly, have the right tires and a good driver they are extremely competitive. Its not cheap or easy to get ALL the right parts and massage everything together, but doing it with stock style parts is a great way to have a durable, safe well performing car.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 04:41 PM
It would be fun to get both the Brick and Tim's Valiant on the track at the same time. They both have Mopar style suspensions with leafs out back and torsion bars up front. Tim's car is a little more tricked out with the 13 inch Baer kit up front.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 05:13 PM
Quote:
It would be fun to get both the Brick and Tim's Valiant on the track at the same time. They both have Mopar style suspensions with leafs out back and torsion bars up front. Tim's car is a little more tricked out with the 13 inch Baer kit up front.
Spring Fling Speed Festival 2013 at Willow Spring Raceway !!
Neat place for bigger car with HP with the long straights. Tim's been there once before.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/20/12 05:15 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
how is it that the hotchkis setup gives up anti dive?
On their B and E body arms, the front pivot point of the upper control arm is lower than stock. The rear pivot point is in the stock location. I believe they still retain around 2 or 3 degrees of anti dive.
On the A body upper arm set, I believe they did not move the arm pivot points because the bumpsteer measurements were not as bad and as a result, it was not necessary.
I'd imagine Dan or Steve could provide the exact amount they took out.
I don't know exactly. Dan could contact thier engineering.
When I asked thier engineering they said there is anti dive still left in the car.
Seems ambiguous, but the amount won't be exact because all of these Mopars have cam eccentric UCA alignment adjusters. Those cams will change the up and down position of the front and rear UCA pick up points depending on your alignment setting and car.
If you measured all of our cars, you'd get all different anti dive measurements.
We removed 7 degrees of control arm "incline"
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 05:21 PM
Quote:
Quote:
It would be fun to get both the Brick and Tim's Valiant on the track at the same time. They both have Mopar style suspensions with leafs out back and torsion bars up front. Tim's car is a little more tricked out with the 13 inch Baer kit up front.
Spring Fling Speed Festival 2013 at Willow Spring Raceway !!
Neat place for bigger car with HP with the long straights. Tim's been there once before.
Not to take any of the wind out of your event Steve, but I think it would be great for Mopar Action to host an event at something like MATS where we can do a full on comparison shoot-out. Give all the manufactures and Rick 6 months to prepare a car, spec tires, same era body styles (I'm thinking Bold Beeper vs. Road Runner; that Ray Barton would eat me alive, lol) and have an honest comparison, Drag, Speed Stop, Auto Cross and Road Course. All that would be availible at Las Vegas Motor Speedway. I think it would be a blast and the pictures alone would be fantastic!
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 05:34 PM
drag racing is a waste of time.
Just do autocross and road course.
Speed stop to proveout the quality of the brakes is ok.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 05:53 PM
Quote:
drag racing is a waste of time.
Just do autocross and road course.
Speed stop to proveout the quality of the brakes is ok.
Swap dragrace for skid pad?
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 05:55 PM
Quote:
Quote:
drag racing is a waste of time.
Just do autocross and road course.
Speed stop to proveout the quality of the brakes is ok.
Swap dragrace for skid pad?
1/4 mile round skid pad? Ok.
Ok, ok, 200 foot skid pad.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 06:11 PM
If I remember correctly, Tim's car was pretty fast down there. That was with the old 360 pass car engine too. He has the 427 incher under hood these days and some weight has been removed. He should be able to hold his own.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 06:15 PM
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 06:45 PM
Rick needs to at least get the brick out of moth balls and put some air in the tires.
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 07:20 PM
I think the Brick lost the an engine bearing last year at the mid-west shoot out, is it back on the road?
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 07:39 PM
Quote:
1/4 mile round skid pad? Ok.
Been there, done that. Its a freakin blast! Look a few posts down at the oval track advice thread. Current world record is 9.90...on an quarter mile...oval. Just think, 9.9 at the drags is 135 mph and is considered fast, so on an oval you have to be knocking on the door of 145-150 before throwing it into a 90* turn surrounded by concrete walls. How's that for big brass ones?
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/20/12 07:47 PM
Quote:
Quote:
1/4 mile round skid pad? Ok.
Been there, done that. Its a freakin blast! Look a few posts down at the oval track advice thread. Current world record is 9.90...on an quarter mile...oval. Just think, 9.9 at the drags is 135 mph and is considered fast, so on an oval you have to be knocking on the door of 145-150 before throwing it into a 90* turn surrounded by concrete walls. How's that for big brass ones?
I'll have to read that thread. I mentioned what I did on a 1/4 oval at midnight years ago with my street car, '71 Sebring, in the "How much RPM have you had your engine" thread. Don't know how quick per lap, the others forgot the stop watch, but it was fun, expecialy in the dark. Had the rearend start to loosen up and come around, but a light lift of the throttle and all was fine. Had to quit when the lifters started to rattle. Some 10 or 15 laps of fun. I even drove their Open Comp Camaro, during the day for a few laps. Had the tail of that a little happy one time. I was on their pit crew for a few years.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/21/12 12:39 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
In fact, I can't recall seeing a torsion bar suspension on ANY race car that takes corners in the last 25 years. If it is so f-ing good, you would think someone would use it...
I suppose Porsche running torsion bars does not count? Or are the Porsche guys going to take a sawzall to their car...and hack in a non stock suspension?
http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/torsionbars/reartorsionbarkey.jpg
Quote:
I think the Brick lost the an engine bearing last year at the mid-west shoot out, is it back on the road?
Nope.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/21/12 06:48 AM
Quote:
If I remember correctly, Tim's car was pretty fast down there. That was with the old 360 pass car engine too. He has the 427 incher under hood these days and some weight has been removed. He should be able to hold his own.
Yes, it was hauling the mail!
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/21/12 07:55 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It would be fun to get both the Brick and Tim's Valiant on the track at the same time. They both have Mopar style suspensions with leafs out back and torsion bars up front. Tim's car is a little more tricked out with the 13 inch Baer kit up front.
Spring Fling Speed Festival 2013 at Willow Spring Raceway !!
Neat place for bigger car with HP with the long straights. Tim's been there once before.
Not to take any of the wind out of your event Steve, but I think it would be great for Mopar Action to host an event at something like MATS where we can do a full on comparison shoot-out. Give all the manufactures and Rick 6 months to prepare a car, spec tires, same era body styles (I'm thinking Bold Beeper vs. Road Runner; that Ray Barton would eat me alive, lol) and have an honest comparison, Drag, Speed Stop, Auto Cross and Road Course. All that would be availible at Las Vegas Motor Speedway. I think it would be a blast and the pictures alone would be fantastic!
You could do all that at Willow Springs except Drag Race.
But nowdays can you do 1/4 mile times and speeds with iphone apps? Or are they not that accurate?
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/21/12 12:56 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It would be fun to get both the Brick and Tim's Valiant on the track at the same time. They both have Mopar style suspensions with leafs out back and torsion bars up front. Tim's car is a little more tricked out with the 13 inch Baer kit up front.
Spring Fling Speed Festival 2013 at Willow Spring Raceway !!
Neat place for bigger car with HP with the long straights. Tim's been there once before.
Not to take any of the wind out of your event Steve, but I think it would be great for Mopar Action to host an event at something like MATS where we can do a full on comparison shoot-out. Give all the manufactures and Rick 6 months to prepare a car, spec tires, same era body styles (I'm thinking Bold Beeper vs. Road Runner; that Ray Barton would eat me alive, lol) and have an honest comparison, Drag, Speed Stop, Auto Cross and Road Course. All that would be availible at Las Vegas Motor Speedway. I think it would be a blast and the pictures alone would be fantastic!
And you should invite Jon Clark and his 68 Valiant with Alterkation front and rear suspension just to make it a bit more interesting.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post7292620
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/22/12 11:34 AM
Quote:
(RE: Hotchkis / anti-dive)
When I asked thier engineering they said there is anti dive still left in the car.
Seems ambiguous, but the amount won't be exact because all of these Mopars have cam eccentric UCA alignment adjusters. Those cams will change the up and down position of the front and rear UCA pick up points depending on your alignment setting and car.
If you measured all of our cars, you'd get all different anti dive measurements.
We removed 7 degrees of control arm "incline"
That's just flat-out 100% wrong. The cam bolts mount thru slots that move the "pick-up points" only in and out, absolutely no different than adding or removing shims on a Chevy.
The cams are just an easier way of adjusting camber and caster. Once torqued up, there's absolutely no difference between this system and any other.
Rick
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/22/12 11:42 AM
Quote:
Rick needs to at least get the brick out of moth balls and put some air in the tires.
You'll definitely see the Brick at some pro-touring type shootouts again. Just got a lot of other stuff on my plate.
Rick
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/22/12 03:04 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Rick needs to at least get the brick out of moth balls and put some air in the tires.
You'll definitely see the Brick at some pro-touring type shootouts again. Just got a lot of other stuff on my plate.
Rick
What about Bold Beeper? I need help on the B-Body front! 
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued? - 08/22/12 06:19 PM
Quote:
Quote:
(RE: Hotchkis / anti-dive)
...snip...
Seems ambiguous, but the amount won't be exact because all of these Mopars have cam eccentric UCA alignment adjusters. Those cams will change the up and down position of the front and rear UCA pick up points depending on your alignment setting and car.
If you measured all of our cars, you'd get all different anti dive measurements.
That's just flat-out 100% wrong. The cam bolts mount thru slots that move the "pick-up points" only in and out, absolutely no different than adding or removing shims on a Chevy.
The cams are just an easier way of adjusting camber and caster. Once torqued up, there's absolutely no difference between this system and any other.
Rick
I apologize.
You're right. I was visualizing the bolt relative to the cam as opposed to bolt relative to the body.
Here's the slots on a A-body for example.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/22/12 07:11 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Rick needs to at least get the brick out of moth balls and put some air in the tires.
You'll definitely see the Brick at some pro-touring type shootouts again. Just got a lot of other stuff on my plate.
Rick
I saw the Valiant competed with Kevin W. at the Motor State Challenge in Michigan in 2010. I saw the results posted on www.lateral-g.net
I don't remember reading anything about it in Mopar Action though.
Results road course it seems. Did a little better in the autocross:
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/22/12 09:31 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Rick needs to at least get the brick out of moth balls and put some air in the tires.
You'll definitely see the Brick at some pro-touring type shootouts again. Just got a lot of other stuff on my plate.
Rick
I saw the Valiant competed with Kevin W. at the Motor State Challenge in Michigan in 2010. I saw the results posted on www.lateral-g.net
I don't remember reading anything about it in Mopar Action though.
Results road course it seems. Did a little better in the autocross:
I had forgotten how well E-max did at that event. We've made a lot of improvements since too.
Posted By: Consulier
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/25/12 12:00 AM
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Rick needs to at least get the brick out of moth balls and put some air in the tires.
You'll definitely see the Brick at some pro-touring type shootouts again. Just got a lot of other stuff on my plate.
Rick
I saw the Valiant competed with Kevin W. at the Motor State Challenge in Michigan in 2010. I saw the results posted on www.lateral-g.net
I don't remember reading anything about it in Mopar Action though.
Results road course it seems. Did a little better in the autocross:
The Brick made 1 or 2 timed laps at the roadcourse before the motor let go. Combo of lingering oiling issues and no fault of Barton's.
The autocross times were in Keisler's Cuda.
Ran Motorstate this year in my Satellite and had 5th fastest vintage roadcourse time in the car's first time out at the track. Look for the Satellite AutoX Taxi at the next few events and it should be sorted a bit more by then. I'll be down at Monster Mopar in Indy.
Kevin
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/25/12 02:09 AM
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Rick needs to at least get the brick out of moth balls and put some air in the tires.
You'll definitely see the Brick at some pro-touring type shootouts again. Just got a lot of other stuff on my plate.
Rick
I saw the Valiant competed with Kevin W. at the Motor State Challenge in Michigan in 2010. I saw the results posted on www.lateral-g.net
I don't remember reading anything about it in Mopar Action though.
Results road course it seems. Did a little better in the autocross:
The Brick made 1 or 2 timed laps at the roadcourse before the motor let go. Combo of lingering oiling issues and no fault of Barton's.
The autocross times were in Keisler's Cuda.
Ran Motorstate this year in my Satellite and had 5th fastest vintage roadcourse time in the car's first time out at the track. Look for the Satellite AutoX Taxi at the next few events and it should be sorted a bit more by then. I'll be down at Monster Mopar in Indy.
Kevin
Kevin thanks for clarifying there was a "mechanical" on the Green Brick.
Is there anything the rest of us could learn from those "lingering oiling issues" ???
I saw this years results and pics of the AutoX Taxi. Awesome job!
What does the AutoX Taxi weigh? What did the competitors that placed in front of you weigh?
Posted By: Furious65
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 11:13 AM
Just an FYI for anyone who hadn't heard about or seen it. It's old news now but it broke three times.
Dave Valfer’s ’71 Plymouth ‘Cuda Details of the car are here (
Custom Pro-Touring Cuda) which list RMS as the maker of the front suspension.
Posted By: RTSE4ME
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 01:54 PM
The picture of the broken LCA does not look like a ALTERKATION. Looks like a Magnum Force?
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 02:53 PM
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The picture of the broken LCA does not look like a ALTERKATION. Looks like a Magnum Force?
That is absolutely not a RMS front end in THAT picture.
...Maybe he runs one now
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 03:03 PM
Did you notice what broke?
The bolt.
Why? That is the question and one of the reasons why OEM manufacturers spend a lot of time and money validating designs before they are released.
It could have been undersized for the loads. It could have been a back materials choice. It could have been improperly installed. It could have been the shock loads from the lack of compliance in a heim jointed connection. Only a forensic investigation will be able to say.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 03:12 PM
Fwiw, the ad that refers to a RMS front end also states motor is a. "225".
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 03:17 PM
Posted By: Consulier
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 03:28 PM
Quote:
Kevin thanks for clarifying there was a "mechanical" on the Green Brick.
Is there anything the rest of us could learn from those "lingering oiling issues" ???
I saw this years results and pics of the AutoX Taxi. Awesome job!
What does the AutoX Taxi weigh? What did the competitors that placed in front of you weigh?
After running the Satellite, the issue is clearly the pan. Areas at Gingerman that would drop to 10-15psi with the Brick were a non issue with the Milodon pan on the Satellite. The accusump has helped for many years, but some tracks have always had long sweepers that would cause low oil pressure issues. That and some maintenance stuff is what killed it.
The car ran 1:38's in practice before the event without the nitrous. So, there is still good pace in the car with it's stock suspension. The TKO 500 and the 2.94 gear didn't help either. That has been a known issue for some time as well.
Not sure on the Satellite weight, has to be close to 4,000 lbs. It's stock down to the ac heater box with aluminum heads/rad and headers being the only weight savings. The four buckets weigh more than the 2 bench seats. Rear bench seats don't weigh much.
That Chevelle in the background of the pic was 3,900 lbs, but slower on the road course. The cars that were faster were 2nd gen Camaros and a 2nd gen Nova. All mega buck pro touring builds.
Being the first time out we had a bunch of little issues to deal with that killed my times. Never sorted the brakes and the car wouldn't stop well at all. Combo of pad compounds and bias adjustments. Engine wouldn't rev past 5k, MSD was breaking up. Sure Grip went out of it and it started spinning the tire everywhere. But, the oversteer was pretty brutal. That's a combination of the rear bar settings and possibly bottoming the rear suspension at corner entry. All will be sorted soon and before Indy.
Basically at Gingerman there is another 3-5 seconds per lap. That would put us well into the top 3 at pretty much all the Pro Touring events, but still 3-4 seconds per lap slower than the fastest OUSCI cars (Popp and Stielow). That's ok for the 4 door B body I think, still torsion bars and leaf springs.
Gets me excited to finish my A body that should be 1,000 lbs less and have another 150hp, but still torsion bar and leaf spring. I still haven't seen any reason to cut off the suspension yet. The fastest Mopars that actually show up at these events continue to be stock based suspensions.
Kevin
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 03:55 PM
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Yes we can see a broken bolt, we don' t have enough info to know if the bolt failure initiated the collapse or was simply a cascade result of another or other failures
Hence the need for a forensic investigation to determine what failed and why. Which is exactly the point of this whole thread. The aftermarket stuff just doesn't have the engineering resources and testing put into it that the OEM stuff does. Most of the MII suspension based aftermarket items have strayed so far from the original MII design that they can justifiably be called their own designs. While I am not a big fan of the OEM MII system, at least it was engineered and validated to an extent that I doubt the aftermarket derivatives have been.
The original MII setup became popular simply because it was compact enough to fit under an early rod, allowed for better than 30's technology braking, suspension and steering. But it was ugly. So tubular arms and such were made and things snowballed from there. Some attempts were made to improve upon the inherent issues int he MII but some of them still remain. Is it better than the stuff original to the 30's? Yes. Is it better than the T bar suspension? Doubtful. If someone where to make a tubular K member that accepted the T bar suspension, what blueprinted to correct the assembly line defects and maybe included a rack and pinion setup it would sell like hotcakes.
Posted By: moparpollack
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 04:38 PM
I was there when that event happened it was not the first time that the suspension bolt broke. The bolt failed at less than 5mph while backing up. The manufacture was magnum force and the owner was not happy with them.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 04:45 PM
Single shear on the bolt probably didn't help. What did Magnumforce say, if anything?
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 05:40 PM
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Single shear on the bolt probably didn't help. What did Magnumforce say, if anything?
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 05:44 PM
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I was there when that event happened it was not the first time that the suspension bolt broke. The bolt failed at less than 5mph while backing up. The manufacture was magnum force and the owner was not happy with them.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 06:03 PM
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Single shear on the bolt probably didn't help. What did Magnumforce say, if anything?
What happenred to the need for a forensic study?
Still there Capt.
The OEM MII suspension used double shear in that application, it also used a strut rod and rubber bushings for compliance. None of which exist here. Lots of bad things there that could have caused it. The bolt is probably just the symptom of a poorly thought out and implemented design. But since it's "new" and "everyone is doing it" it must be better, right?
Posted By: jcc
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 06:27 PM
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Single shear on the bolt probably didn't help. What did Magnumforce say, if anything?
Still there Capt.
The OEM MII suspension used double shear in that application, it also used a strut rod and rubber bushings for compliance. None of which exist here. Lots of bad things there that could have caused it. The bolt is probably just the symptom of a poorly thought out and implemented design. But since it's "new" and "everyone is doing it" it must be better, right?
Posted By: bwdst6
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 06:40 PM
Does anyone have a Magnum Force kit that they can measure the spread on the attaching points for the LCA? I’m curious.
Posted By: bwdst6
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 07:01 PM
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I was there when that event happened it was not the first time that the suspension bolt broke. The bolt failed at less than 5mph while backing up. The manufacture was magnum force and the owner was not happy with them.
My guess is that the loading on the upper and lower arms is at its’ maximum when the vehicle is backing up. Due to the negative steering caster in that direction... Everyone knows how much a shopping cart wheel whips back and forth when one is pushing it forward. Rookie dragster drivers sometimes lose the steering wheel backing up because of the wheels wanting to go to the left or right steering lock position.
I once saw a Cap Auto k-member break on an e-body when the vehicle was backing up in the pits. It was only going about 5mph too.
Posted By: RTSE4ME
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 07:27 PM
I had forgotten how well E-max did at that event. We've made a lot of improvements since too.
I just noticed the results that autox posted. That is pretty impressive that the Challenger finished 4th in the road course. The cars ahead of you are high dollar pro touring cars. Didn't Stielow also win the Optima challenge that year with the Red Devil?
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 07:44 PM
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I had forgotten how well E-max did at that event. We've made a lot of improvements since too.
I just noticed the results that autox posted. That is pretty impressive that the Challenger finished 4th in the road course. The cars ahead of you are high dollar pro touring cars. Didn't Stielow also win the Optima challenge that year with the Red Devil?
I believe so. He was still sorting the car at that time, having some serious issues with the ABS, if I remember correctly.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 08/26/12 08:22 PM
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Your responses on this topic confuse me, first you focus in on a broken bolt as the culprit, but end the statement with a suggestion that a forensic study is needed to determine what deficiency broke the bolt. Then your next comment a forensic study is needed to determine what broke and why, and then your next comment is back to the bolt and you are saying why it broke. I just hope others in all fairness to RMS, magnum, etc are a little less quick to reach a conclusion on such limited info.
I'll wait for the forensic study.
My responses are not conclusive. We all saw the bolt is broke. Why it broke is hard to say from the picture alone, I merely pointed out a number of issues that might have played a part. If that confused you sorry.
For all I know the installer used a grade three bolt. Or worse yet a Chinese made "grade eight" bolt.
Posted By: Montclaire
Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued - 09/05/12 04:22 AM
Just wanted to throw a post on here, although I have no desire to buy any suspension parts beyond good ol factory stuff, and I recall photos of early Alter-K cars with awful body roll. To have the caliber of people posting on this thread as we do, is totally overwhelming. Thanks to everyone for their contribution to the hobby.
