Moparts
Beginner Suspension Upgrades *LEAFS/SHOCKS INSTALLED
Posted By: kzinge1
Beginner Suspension Upgrades *LEAFS/SHOCKS INSTALLED - 03/08/12 10:34 PM
I originally set my 69 Satellite up to be more of a drag car, but since then I have decided that I would rather have it handle better since it is mostly a street car. I'm also becoming more interesting in the pro-touring type stuff. I like the idea of an old Mopar that can handle like a modern sports car.
What I have now is no sway bars, 318 t-bars, SS leaf springs, fully rebuilt front suspension, Dana 60 in the rear w/ 4.10 gears, factory manual steering box, and Comp Eng 3-way shocks all the way around. Motor is a 600 HP RB-based stroker w/ aluminum heads and 727 w/ 3500 converter.
Right now it handles like a boat. My funds are kind of limited right now so I'm looking for some upgrades that will make a difference, not break the bank and something I can build on.
I'm thinking a good front sway bar, the Firm Feel stage 3 box, and maybe some 1.03 torsion bars. Possibly some new shocks if the Comps won't work. I am about to order the Dr. Diff rear brake kit to go with my SSBC front kit as well.
Let me know what you guys recommend, all input is welcome!
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/08/12 10:50 PM
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/08/12 11:08 PM
You're on the right track! My car was in almost the same situation this time last year. My first upgrades were a Hotchkis front bar,replaced drag shocks with just 17$ monroes and even with big'n'littles it was a dramatic improvement accross the board. Then went with 18" wheels and tires and ditch ss springs for ct springs and its a completely different car waaaaay more fun to drive and I'm far from done.
Posted By: Mattax
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/08/12 11:20 PM
You've got a good plan especially with limited funds.
1. Front Sway Bar
2. Larger torsion bars
3. Firm Feel Stage 3 box. - If you hate the standard Chrysler power steering, then yes this would be next.
I'd skip any changes to the rear brakes, but if the fronts are drums, that might #4 on the list. This depends on how well you've got the drums tuned in, your driving style, and location. It sounds like you may have already bought a front kit, so then its done, go with it.
As far as shocks, see how these work out and what you can do with them.
After those, the next and arguably most important item, is tires for projected uses. BFG T/A and Firestone Indy 500s are Ok on the street and even in snow and on unpaved roads. But there are better options for dry pavement that trade off the versatility.
Also check out
Where to Start: A Reading List
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/08/12 11:33 PM
Not sure what the budget is, but I'd say do it in this order;
alignment - You may have the DC recommended drag alignment so you'll want to change it a bit. Set it at desired ride height, as much positive caster as possible, 0 to -.5 degrees negative camber, 1/8 to 1/16 total toe in. This may be a bear with manual steering, but will improve the car's cornering manners. The need for power steering after this will be a personal preference.
front sway bar- the need for this is a no brainer. Figure $150 for a solid bar, $300+ for the tubular Hotchkis
shocks - shocks are to the suspension like a cam is to an engine, important to defining operation parameters. Your CE units can be dialed back to 50/50 for now, but then step up to some real good units, like the Bilsteins $300-400
t-bars, step these up if you want to firm things up further after feeling the results above. $200 on sale.
firm feel box - Unless it is really killing you with the alignment, I'd wait until here to install it. The box itself doesn't improve handling, but it does improve your feel. $300+ for box plus you'll need pump, brackets, hoses.
rear springs - SS units have too much camber, plus more rate than you would want with a rear sway bar. You'll need to flatten them out with a more OEM XHD like configuration. Maybe pull a couple of those half leafs out and see how that changes things. free - $200
rear brake kit, skip it altogether. No need to rear discs unless you're road racing it regularly.
Posted By: 340duster340
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/09/12 03:14 AM
I would skip the rear disc brakes, money is better spent elsewhere.
I have run ffi sway bars and other components, you can't go wrong with their stuff.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/09/12 06:01 AM
Thanks for the input guys. I'm still learning a lot about suspension systems. The search function here is terrible too so it's hard to find specific info.
I had power steering on the car and it was stock and had way too much "float" to it. I ditched it for manual steering because I already had what I thought was a good factory box but it's shot. I like the idea of more modern "tight " power steering and I think I'll go that route with the FFI box. I already have a good pump/reservoir to use.
The brakes on my car are terrible right now. I have SSBC 4 piston manual brakes with a 15/16 aluminum master and 10" drums in the rear. Car won't slide the tires on gravel. I have a drum/drum dist block and no prop block. I planned on the rear discs so I wouldn't have to change the dist block and add a prop valve. I may be wrong and I could add those things to my current setup if it will make a difference.
I will definitely do the sway bar, what brand do you guys recommend? Size? Do I need a rear bar as well?
The torsion bars, from what I've read so far is that 1.03 is a good size that will give good handling and not be too stiff. What is your guys experience with them? Am I on the right track?
Thanks again guys!
Posted By: Mattax
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/09/12 02:44 PM
Quote:
The search function here is terrible too so it's hard to find specific info.
There are two search functions, one in the bulletin board and one powered by g**gle. Agreed they're not the best but I've used worse. One reason you are not finding specific info is that there is no one size fits all, especially for a vehicle that is multi-purpose.
You can probably sell or trade the manual box. They're adjustable and rebuildable but some have a bushing type bearing at the bottom. I'm sure places like FF can and do machine them. For your car, go power steering.
Quote:
The brakes on my car are terrible right now. I have SSBC 4 piston manual brakes with a 15/16 aluminum master and 10" drums in the rear. Car won't slide the tires on gravel. I have a drum/drum dist block and no prop block.
If you get stuck on this probably best to start a seperate thread either here or general tech section. Yes the lack of prop valve will be a problem.
Beware that the factory had a variety of arrangements for disk/drum. Residual valves and proportioning were located in various places depending on year and model. So you need to do some investigating but its not that complicated.
Unless you're running a brake lining that needs heat before it starts to really work, you're right that something is wrong. Bleed, adjust, check. If there's no proporting valve those drums should be locking up first.
Now, as to valving, here's what you need to have:
Residual valve: Somewhere in the system going to the rear brakes there should be a residual valve. It's small, and acts a partial check valve. Could be in the distribution block, could be in the master cylinder front resevoir outlet. Maybe elsewhere - I won't pretend to know all the variants especially on B-bodies and late models. The residual valve helps counteract the return springs.
Proportioning Valve: If SSBC did not have a matching one they supply, and maybe they can't due to the variety of combinations, buy a little adjustable one, and place it in the rear line. Early a-body factory ones were adjustable, later they were incorporated into the distribution block. As above, there were probably more varations. However, based on what you wrote, I don't think there isn't one in your setup. Buy an aftermarket one and install.
The easy way to install the prop valve is to disconnect the line to the drum brakes and gently bend it or loop it to the exit of the prop valve. Then use a short double flared line from the parts store to connect from the distribution block to the prop valve. Another way it to cut and double flare - but most people find double flaring difficult.
After all that, you may decide you want power assist since drums are self assisting and disks are not. But first get it working, then you can decide if you like the feel.
Quote:
I will definitely do the sway bar, what brand do you guys recommend? Size? Do I need a rear bar as well?
The torsion bars, from what I've read so far is that 1.03 is a good size that will give good handling and not be too stiff. What is your guys experience with them? Am I on the right track?
There are some recent b- body and other sway bar threads in this section. I think you'll find good guidance in them.
Here's one
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=1#Post7063919
Some folks say you can't go too stiff on a t-bar, but it comes down to the overall package. If the front of your car is around stock weight and there is no significant chassis stiffening, then around 1" is probably a good start but anything down to .93 would probably feel better than what you have now. Also, most (but not all) SS spring rates are around 160 lbs/in vs. 110-130 lbs/in typical of standard and heavy duty factory springs. So with that factor, I would not hesitate to pick a t-bar in the high .96-1.03 range.
After you've made your first set of changes, then you can play with the rear springs as TC suggested. Other options are to see about dearching them or (low buck) moving the spring eye up, or short lowering block. No love for any of them, but you got to work with the constraints you have.
Heh. Looking again at your photo, I see unpaved is a part of the road terrain. 
So both too stiff and too low can become an issue. Before lowering the rear, see if you can get the front down to factory specs before you start realigning per TC's recommendations. To a small degree the rear will drop when you do that.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/09/12 06:36 PM
Thanks for the help Matt.
I think I will go with the FF power steering, seems like everyone loves it. I do prefer power steering, but the box I had on there before was so over-assisted that it was almost scary at highway speeds. At the time I had no idea about the FF box so I just ditched it for the manual box.
I was thinking about just buying a re-pop 69 distribution block and the factory prop block for a disc/drum car from Inline Tube. Does that have the residual valve built in? I did get a prop valve from SSBC but I didnt use it and now I can't find it. As far as the power brakes go, I have too much cam, so that's not an option. I tried it before, b/c the SSBC came with a booster but it didn't work very well. I do have a set of 11" brakes that I can rob off my Duster project if it would help. I can use the disc/drum dist block from it as well.
From reading the thread about the sway bars, it looks like there isn't much difference between them. I looked at the bars from Summit and they look good, price is right too. The instructions looked pretty straight forward, I may go that route. Should I get the rear bar as well?
I was looking at the Just Suspension and the PST torsion bars, the price looks good on both. All my front end parts are from PST so I may just get the bars from them. I've had good luck with them so far.
The gravel in the picture is at my father-in-laws shop. He has about 20+ Mopars in that building there. The ride height is about is low as I can go with the SS springs. I have 2" lowering blocks on it right now. The tires are also very tall at 29". I would rather do away with the block and throw some flatter springs under there but that's what I have right now. I was also looking at some shorter tires, maybe a 275/60 15. Right now I have 295/65 15's. Again, thanks for the help.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/09/12 08:36 PM
What valve covers are those?
Posted By: Mattax
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/09/12 08:51 PM
Generally residual valve would be inside the front fitting on the master cylinder but I really don't know. Could be in the prop block. I don't know the specifics of the '69 B. Someone else might and the remanufacturers
ought to.
There's some good
factory technical service information at the imperial club. Scroll down to 1969 and check out '1969 Service Hightlights' for the brake changes instituted that year. Then check out the other brake specific bulletins.
Let me get this right, the car has the 10 x 1.75" brake drums on the rear or the wider ones?
In either case, they should be stopping the car at low speed. The wider ones would be better but whether 11s are worth the wieght is questionable. Bigger brakes will help dissapate the heat but there is no heat being generated so that's not the issue. Most lining materials work better as they get hotter but they all have optimum ranges. Street linings work from dead cold (even in the arctic) to at least a few hundred degrees. Race only compounds work from from a few hundred degrees to glowing hot. So those are the extremes. In the repeated high speed braking that occurs on a road course (or an oval) a lot of heat is generated and needs to be removed.
No rear bar at this time. Unless you've shifted a lot of weight to the rear, this car needs more front roll resistance. Adding a sway bar to the rear will increase the rear roll resistance that already is relatively high compared to the front. As a result you're getting into the possibility of oversteer situations developing at high speed. There was a discussion on oversteer not long ago in this forum - search function should turn it up.
Well I know tires (and wheels) are not cheap, but you can play with ride height that way for sure. I use a a 'tall' 70 series tire on the street (actually close to stock diameter), and a short 50 series tire on bigger rims for autocrossing. For the time I did a rallycross, I cranked up the t-bars a bit and used the street tires. One advantage of smaller diameter tires is you may save weight.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/09/12 09:28 PM
Quote:
What valve covers are those?
They are the polished ones from 440Source.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/09/12 09:37 PM
Matt- I'll have to find out about the residual valve in the MC. It's a Strange aluminum 15/16 that I got from Dr. Diff, so he probably knows.
The car does have the bigger 10" brakes, I think 2 or 2.5" wide. Are you referring to the linings of the pad/shoe materials? If so, the rears are stock replacement and the fronts are whatever comes with the SSBC kit. I don't know a whole lot about it. The 11" brakes would be a free upgrade so I may just do it. I have big drag radials on the back and I've kinda been wanting to go to more of a regular tire in a smaller size. I'd like for the car to be safe if I do happen to get caught in some rain. I've thought about going to a better tire but it looks like I would have to go to 17" plus weels, which I'm not opposed to but there's more cash. I could sell my 15's to help though.
I'll hold off on the rear bar for now. All the information I'm seeing on sway bar brands is pretty vague. It looks like I would be fine using a cheaper one like the one Summit offers. I would go with the one from FF or Hotchkis but it looks like it will be overkill.
Posted By: Mattax
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/10/12 02:21 AM
Didn't mean to be confusing.
10 x 2.5" drum is stock for the '68 Bendix equiped disk brake cars. That's fine.
A larger drum adds unsprung weight and more rotating mass but might be worth it if you were repeatedly braking from 120 mph to 60 mph or even 80 to 40mph.
When I was describing temperature ranges this was in reference to lining on the pads and shoes. A stock type lining is fine unless you start doing road courses. Obviously there are different qualities in lining material as well as backing plates so later on you can try different ones if you want.
Anyway, whether or not you change to larger rear brakes, it sounds like the system is not working well and needs to be dealt with. That's my main point. Without a proportioning valve, the back drums should lock up when you hit the pedal hard at low speed on gravel.
Locking up the rear first is not good, especially in the rain. Therefore, you got to get the proportioning valve. If you stay with the stock rear brakes, a stock valve should work fine. think Andy F has a new book on B-body upgrades, and it may be helpful in these matters. I haven't seen it so that's all I can say. There were also some magazine projects involving b-bpdies if I remember correctly. You can check the Where to start reading thread for those.
Drag radials. Well think about a pair of tires and rims that match the front. Then put the drag radials on just when you're going to the drag strip. See how things feel with the changes. Save a major tire and wheel change for later when the tires are worn or getting hard.
Not sure what you're looking for in sway bar info. Biggest variables are diameter and attachment methods. Next is how thoroughly they tested fit on different combos. Finally, you may find some bars are hollow which saves weight.
Andy's book or maybe Tom Condran's old book may have some specific combinations they recommend. Otherwise, the best we can say is you're in the right ballpark with your plan. Then you can get more into tuning and adjusting it, if you want.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/10/12 07:55 AM
At this time I don't plan on doing any road racing, just looking for a good driving and handling car. Looking for a more modern feel out of it. I'll probably stick with the brakes I have and I plan on calling up Inline Tube and getting the factory distribution block and rear "hold-off valve" as they call it. Also plan on getting the Helwig 1 1/8 sway bar from Summit. Probably also do the 1.03 torsion bars from PST and the FFI stage 3 power steering. I'm also going to get some street tires , 275/60 15's, for the rear. I'm also going to set my Comp Eng shocks to 50/50. Hopefully this will get me on track.
I've also been meaning to order AndyF's B-body book, I have his Big Block book and I really liked it.
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/10/12 09:16 AM
It takes a few minutes to look through them all, but check out the following threads on THIS very forum:
* What suspension mods are in your B body... I started that one.
* The suspension mod register at the top of this page.
* Anything on sway bars, also on this forum.
The stuff that you have outlined sounds pretty good. The rear discs can wait. I put them on my car at first because the 10" drums were out of round and needed new shoes as well. The disc rotors looked better through my wheel spokes too.
Some newbies can appreciate the "package" approach when setting their cars up for handling, because it takes the guesswork out of the job. It also takes a large bite out of your wallet. Those kits often include a full front end rebuild kit, shocks, sway bars front and rear, leaf springs and hardware. Others also include frame connectors. I started out with a custom 1 1/4" front sway bar, 1" torsion bars and KYB shocks in front with Mopar Performance leafs, 7/8" rear sway bar and KYB shocks. My Charger kicked the tail out too easily and felt too squirrelly, so I pulled the rear sway bar off. It rolls and leans a little more, but it also handles predictably.
Keep us informed as you make improvements. I think that you will like the Firm Feel steering box. If your exhaust system allows, consider adding the fast ratio idler and pitman arms. Those make the steering react quicker, add stiffness to the feel of the steering and reduce your stering wheel turns from 3 1/2 turns to about 2 3/4 lock to lock.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/10/12 05:09 PM
Thanks Frankenduster. I've been doing a lot of research lately and I think I have a pretty good plan so far. Will probably order the parts next week. I may go ahead and put the 11" brakes on just for the heck of it.
I probably should have just done the package deal, but it was a big chunk of money at the time and I have basically done a 180 with the plans for my car. I originally wanted more of a drag car but it will probably never see the strip. So now I want something that will be fun on the street.
I've heard nothing but great things about the FF box. I don't know if I can get away with the pitman and idler arms with my headers. I will look at it though. Thanks for the advice. Great looking Charger too.
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/10/12 06:04 PM
THOSE THREADS WERE LINKED TO BY ME VERY EARLY IN THIS THREAD, READ IT.
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/10/12 07:23 PM
Charger? That old turd? Heh heh heh... Thanks.
The combination of the Stage 3 steering box and fast ratio gear make for a really nice response and feel. I have the 2" TTI headers and they clear by a mile. The instructions in the TTI pamphlet lead you to think that they do not, but I'd gladly let anyone look at my car to see for sure. The Hooker 5903 and 5209 do NOT clear. Factory manifolds would clear easily unless your exhaust guy was a spun out tweeker.
If you don't have the clearance for these Fast Ratio arms, the modifications to the P/S pump noted elsewhere will likely give you more feel with reduced boost, but you will still have the same 3 1/2 turns at the wheel.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/11/12 05:35 AM
I did read through all the threads and they were very helpful. I have a much better feel for what I need now.
I like the idea of the longer Pitman and Idler arms but unfortunately I do have the Hooker headers, which are a PITA to install and remove and provide minimal clearance. So that won't work. Wish I would have went TTI.
I'm probably going to order some parts next week, so I'll keep you guys updated.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/26/12 04:26 AM
Did a little work on my car this weekend. Put on a set of 275/60 street tires in place of the 295/65 15 drag radials. That made a pretty big difference in my braking ability. Now the car will actually slide the tires during a panic stop! I also ordered an adjustable proportioning valve that I will install later, along with a factory distribution block from a disc/drum car. I am also going to swap the 10" drums in the back for a set of 11" drums that I have on my Duster right now.
Today I installed the Hellwig 1 1/8" swaybar that I got from Summitt. The install went very smooth and I am very happy with the quality and fit of the bar. I also adjusted my CE shocks to the 60/40 setting up front and 50/50 for the rear. I will test drive it later in the week to see how much of a difference these things will make.
Next on my list is a set of 1.03 torsion bars, Firm Feel stage 3 p/s box and possibly a complete set of the Bilstein RCD shocks.
Posted By: vynn3
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/28/12 08:52 PM
Quote:
... and possibly a complete set of the Bilstein RCD shocks.
I STRONGLY recommend the Bilsteins. I just upgraded from KYB's last weekend, and the Bils are WAY better with my .890 torsion bars (A-body). You definitely get what you pay for...
vm
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/28/12 11:10 PM
Care to elaborate?
I keep hearing people say good things about the Bilstiens, but what I'd like to hear is what specifically they are feeling. Is it a better ride? Is it quieter? Does the car skip over bumps LESS? What exactly is your take on the difference?
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/29/12 02:07 AM
I would like to know about the Billsteins as well. I don't think my Comp adjustables are going to cut it after test driving today. I do believe I need the bigger torsion bars, I'm still getting some roll through corners and it doesn't feel as tight as I was hoping.
Posted By: vynn3
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/29/12 03:00 PM
Re: the Bilsteins, it's hard to put into words without using a cliche, but most accurate would be to say the ride is more "controlled".
My Swinger was upgraded to .890 torsion bars during the suspension rebuild 10 years ago. The KYB's went on at that time, and I lowered the ride height around 2". The ride was certainly stiffer than it was with the stock slant six torsion bars, but it also crashed over bumps and yet wallowed through dips in the road. Maybe the ride height was too low for the KYB's to work properly. I just know I was never pleased with the results.
I added 18" rims and 45 series tires last year, and it had little effect on ride quality for better or worse.
The Bilsteins I bought are spec'd for a 2" lower ride height. The ride is firm but not harsh, and no more wallowing. Ride quality and overall control feels a LOT like a modern car.
And all this is just with the front. I have 6-leaf Espos in back, but I've never replaced the shocks. Hope to soon, though...
vm
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/29/12 11:22 PM
Thanks for the input on the Bilsteins. Ive heard nothing but good things about them. It's a big chunk of change for shocks, but if they make that big of a difference, they are worth it.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades - 03/30/12 02:40 PM
Go back up a bit and re-read my original post. I suggest shocks as the second mod right behind the sway bar for the simple fact that even with light spring rates, greater shock control yields the highest dividends on a typically taller, street oriented car. If you need to break it up, buy the fronts first, then the backs. Yes,they are pricy but shocks are to the suspension system what a camshaft is to an engine. They control all the operating parameters such as usable range, response, feel, etc.
What the Bilsteins will do is take all the harshness out of the straight, level road cruising. All those little bumps and ripples you would normally feel in the road will be smoothed out, but when you throw it into a corner at speed, they will better control the motion without allowing the car to wallow, yet still be able to absorb those small irregularities. This is why good shocks are able to control low speed circuits and high speed circuits without compromising the action of either or having to pump up their performance with large nitrogen charges.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 03/31/12 03:48 PM
Thanks for the input about the shocks guys. I think I may go ahead and order a set along with some new leaf springs. Sounds like the SS springs are no good for handling. I don't like how they throw my pinion angle off either. What leaf springs do you guys recommend? Where should I get them from?
Posted By: Mattax
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/02/12 03:56 AM
I think it really depends on the combo. Not sure about B bodies, but the A body SS springs came in 3 varieties IIRC (maybe 4 including the orignal Hemi SS Springs). Each flavor was the same rate but different initial arch. IIRC the 002/003 were for light cars and had the least arch.
If both springs are the same, and you think the rear is too high, then an option to investigate is dearching. Pretty sure thats what they did for the Green Brick. Beckman's Rallycuda also uses SS springs, but they carry a lot of weight on the rear and do not want the car lower than stock so they are not dearched.
Another option, possibly in conjuntion with the dearching, is a slightly higher spring eye mount (aka adjustable hanger). You'll have to measure and experiment a bit because these things effect wheel hop and spring windup as well.
If you're going to change springs, then best is to find out how much weight is on the rear wheels. Then you can come close to the height you want by calculating the free arch for a given spring rate.
Definately address the pinion angle. Front and rear u-joint angles should cancel each other out. A little nose down on the diff compensates for when it torques upward. Standing start launches usually being the worst case and so need most compensation. Speedway Motors carries 2.5" wide pinion angle wedges, or did.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/02/12 03:15 PM
Thanks Matt. Right now I'm leaning towards going with the XHD Mopar springs. I may just try to sell the SS springs. From what I've read about them they really throw the pinion angle off. I'm thinking I can solve that problem with a spring change and hopefully I can stay away from using any shims. The SS springs had the angle off so bad that I would have needed probably 5-6 degrees of shim to correct it. And I don't feel like re-welding the perches either. My father-in-law has a 69 RR that has those springs and the same tires as mine and his right height is good, so I'll probably go with that setup.
My next round of mods are going to be 1.03 t-bars, 7/8 rear sway bar, and the Bilstein RCD shocks from PST, and the XHD mopar springs, as well as the 11" drum setup that I already have.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/03/12 12:22 AM
Alright, I have the 1 1/8 sway bar installed up front, and I have the xHD leaf springs, RCD Bilsteins, and 7/8 rear bar all on order. Next up is the torsion bars. I was thinking the 1.03 bars from PST. What do you guys think?
Posted By: cudazappa
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/03/12 03:03 AM
Right now you're doing a lot of parts changing at once. Obviously you've come to the conclusion that your 318 bars will be too soft as compared to the rest of the suspension. I've been hearing mixed reviews about the 1.03" bars (namely PST has the clocking off?) so you may want to look into another brand/source.
From my experience, you're in the ballpark with 1.03" torsion bars. I'm using a Just Suspension 1" t-bars on my Challenger. They were too stiff with stock leaf springs and no rear bar, but now that I have a rear sway bar, I now need to upgrade my front torsion bars (about 1.03" would match right now with my stock leaf springs).
If you can, see if you can find a source for the 1" bars, or maybe somebody is offloading their 1"+ bars cheap. You're changing a lot all at once so you may want to get a feel for the car before you finish dialing it in.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/03/12 03:23 AM
Yeah, I am pretty much changing all the major suspension components, that's why I've been asking so many questions and everyone has helped a lot. I pretty much knew nothing about suspension when I started this thread, I feel like I have a good idea of what I need now.
I was kinda unsure about the PST bars, because they have a warning on their website about them only being for lowered cars and you can't return the car to stock ride height after install. I was going to call and ask them about that before I ordered. I may have to get the ones from Just Suspension but I was really wanting something a little stiffer. I may go with a set from Firm Feel, seems like they know what they are doing and they have a better selection. The price reflects that though
Posted By: Mattax
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/03/12 03:42 AM
Leave the rear sway car off until the front springs are increased.
Please reread my third post (#7110921 - Fri Mar 09 2012 02:51 PM ) in this thread about oversteer, and you can go to
this thread for several good posts about oversteer and rear sway bar choices.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/03/12 04:10 AM
Quote:
Leave the rear sway car off until the front springs are increased.
Please reread my third post (#7110921 - Fri Mar 09 2012 02:51 PM ) in this thread about oversteer, and you can go to this thread for several good posts about oversteer and rear sway bar choices.
Matt,
Thanks again for your comments, you have been vey helpful so far. I read through the link and your earlier post. The reason I went ahead and ordered the rear sway bar is because I am going to change out the t-bars. Now I just need to know exactly how stiff I should go with them. Will 1" be stiff enough to support a rear bar? Or should I go bigger? I can leave the rear bar off altogether, but from why I've read so far, a rear bar should be helpful with 1" or larger t-bars. Am I on the right track here?
Posted By: ahy
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/03/12 04:27 AM
Quote:
Yeah, I am pretty much changing all the major suspension components, that's why I've been asking so many questions and everyone has helped a lot. I pretty much knew nothing about suspension when I started this thread, I feel like I have a good idea of what I need now.
I was kinda unsure about the PST bars, because they have a warning on their website about them only being for lowered cars and you can't return the car to stock ride height after install. I was going to call and ask them about that before I ordered. I may have to get the ones from Just Suspension but I was really wanting something a little stiffer. I may go with a set from Firm Feel, seems like they know what they are doing and they have a better selection. The price reflects that though
That "warning" doesn't sound right or necessary. No reason you cannot have full adjustability... especially with the stiffer bars. I agree 1.00" or 1.03" is in the ballpark but maybe you need to find another source for the bars.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/03/12 04:45 AM
Looks like Firm Feel is my only option for the bigger t-bars. They are a little pricey compared to others out there, but if they are the right ones for the job it's money we'll spent. Don't want to skimp now, seems like the t-bars are one of the most important suspension parts. Now I'm leaning towards the 1.06 bars from FF
Posted By: Mattax
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/03/12 01:53 PM
Quote:
I can leave the rear bar off altogether, but from why I've read so far, a rear bar should be helpful with 1" or larger t-bars. Am I on the right track here?
Not sure where you got the idea that t-bar size equates to rear sway bar, but that's not really right. In fact, skimming through the posts FrankenD specifically wrote ".. with a custom 1 1/4" front sway bar, 1" torsion bars and KYB shocks in front with Mopar Performance leafs, 7/8" rear sway bar and KYB shocks. My Charger kicked the tail out too easily and felt too squirrelly, so I pulled the rear sway bar off. It rolls and leans a little more, but it also handles predictably."
Whether a rear bar can be or should be used is about the total package starting with weight distribution; then spring rates and roll rate distribution, cg, roll centers, tires and use. Paraphrasing a comment in that other thread; the sway bars, especially the rear sway, are best used as a tuning tool.
Since we don't know the weight distrubution, nor the rear spring rates, nevermind the more subtle stuff, theres no way for us to know if this, or any rear bar will be too much. If your car is anything close to Frankendusters, then there is a good chance this rear bar could create too much rear roll rate.
As Rick E-berg was pointing out in the other thread, oversteering setup can sneak up on you at higher speeds. On the street, downhill curves create a situation where rear traction can get reduced sufficiently to put even a normally neutral car into oversteer. Combine this with wet or other surface conditions and things get even more dicey. Believe me, this is not so fun to learn the hard way.
Posted By: Viol8r
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/03/12 04:07 PM
Reading your OP and looking over your initial set-up there is really no reason to rush to put a rear bar on this car. Your overall combination, i.e., tires combo, Comp Eng shocks, lack of tubualr uppers??, etc. etc. will hold you back from doing anything requiring the fine tuning of a rear bar.
Work on the front of the car first, and when you decide to take the next step with shocks/ tires and correct rear springs then I would think you consider a rear bar.
We run a rear bar on a Big block car, but we also run 26 way adjustable shocks, 1.12 front bars, 1 3/8 Hotchkis sway bar. This combination still has a moderate amount of oversteer, but I like it.
Posted By: Viol8r
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/03/12 04:15 PM
Quote:
Alright, I have the 1 1/8 sway bar installed up front, and I have the xHD leaf springs, RCD Bilsteins, and 7/8 rear bar all on order. Next up is the torsion bars. I was thinking the 1.03 bars from PST. What do you guys think?
This is not enough front sway bar and front torsion bar to justify a 7/8 rear bar. I would consider staying away from the rear bar for now IMHO.
I would have really liked to have seen you go to an 1¼" bar. Oh well, I been down that road. Big block cars need a lot of help up front to control the roll. As you can see, we run a pretty agressive set-up and its still could you use some more!
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/03/12 07:07 PM
Sounds like I jumped the gun on the rear sway bar. I can just send it back though. The weight distribution should be decent on my car, I have aluminum heads/intake, manual box, battery in the trunk and a fiberglass hood. I did order the RCD Bilsteins and the XHD lead springs, and I am not against going with big front t-bars, as long as the ride isn't ridiculously harsh. I may give Firm Feel a call and see what they recommend.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/04/12 02:30 AM
remember if you don't like it - you can always swap it out for a bigger/smaller bar later!
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/04/12 04:22 AM
Quote:
remember if you don't like it - you can always swap it out for a bigger/smaller bar later!
That's true. At least the bars aren't really that expensive. For now I am just going to leave it off altogether and see how my next round of mods turns out without it.
I am still undecided about the torsion bar size. It would be cheaper to go 1" from Just Suspension but if it's worth it to go to a bigger bar I will spring for bigger ones from FF. I just don't want something that's going to ride like a log truck. Hopefully the Bilstein shocks will allow me to run bigger bars comfortably.
Posted By: Mattax
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/04/12 01:35 PM
Kzinge - Since the car has a lighter front, let's take this relationship a bit further. Reducing mass (weight) on one end of the car has the same effect as increasing spring rate. Also, street tires and particularly unpaved roads are better suited to softer spring. Let me give an example in the other direction.
My car was using 200 #/in t-bars and a 1.125 sway bar which were working reasonably well in autocross on A008 tires. After installing a set of R1 tires, traction increased but the car rolled much more. Stickyier tires needed more roll resistance (or less weight, lower cg and roll centers). But if we put the super stiff setup on loose surface or even a normal dirty road with street tires and it might skate instead of bite.
That said, to pinpoint exactly the right t-bar for any vehicle requires much more specific information. Shifting as little as 50 pounds from the front the rear can effect the balance when driving. Also, on a B-body, my recollection is that the t-bars are longer than an A-body. Therefore a 1.03" B-body spring is softer than a 1.03" A-body t-bar (about 200 #/in). I*think* you will be in the ball park with anything in the 1" range. Yes, it worth discussing with the venders. And the business about ride height has to do with hex offsets.
If you want to baseline your car, my suggestion is to start collecting information. When you get the XHDs, measure the rate and free arches. When you remove the SS springs, measure them too. Next time the opporunity comes, weigh the car and if you can weigh the front. When you do, note how much fuel and other material is in the car (100 lbs of tools?) and its best if you sit in it. There's a page on my website discussing neutral line and how I applied it to my car but that is probably a step more than most people want to do or than makes sense on street car.
Dangina - As far as just trying the rear sway bar, if you put the car into a tree or telephone pole sideways, you may not get a chance to just take it off. That's what Rick E, FrankenDuster and the rest of us are at pains to point out. You need to sneak up on the rear roll from the safe side, especially on a street car. Please read what Rick wrote about oversteer and speed in that other thread.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/04/12 05:44 PM
Thanks again Matt, for the good information. I'm learning a lot in this thread. I'm most likely going to go with the 1" bars from Just Suspension. Seems like everyone's had good luck with them. That's a good point about the weight reduction making the spring effectively have more rate.
I don't know if I'm going to go as far as weighing the car and measuring the springs rates at this point in time. That may be my next step if I decide to up the ante and go with better tires, a bigger front bar and the rear sway bar. If I can get in the ballpark of good handling it will be a major improvement over what I had. I think you guys have me on the right track now. I should start getting parts in today so I'll keep you updated on my progress.
Posted By: Jjs72D
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/04/12 07:00 PM
Hell, I'm working on a 72 Duster with an inclination more towards street performance rather than Drag strip. The car was a 225 slanty with a 3 speed on the column, but with lots of help, it is now a 360 4 speed. Much of the car is a mix and match of parts from many different cars. I even have an 8 3/4 axle from a 68 Coronet!
The slant six torsion bars look barely thicker than the fuel line, so I bought some 1" torsion bars at a swap meet. I'm going to swap those in after I pull the engine to paint the engine bay. Is there a recommended leaf spring rate to compliment the added stiffness of these torsion bars? I'm not looking for anyone to do all the thinking here, I was just looking for some direction. Is it a matter of calculating a spring rate increase of the torsion bars and then adding some additional leafs to the rear? Thanks for any help.
Jeff
Posted By: vynn3
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/04/12 07:49 PM
I went with 6-leaf rear springs from Espos on my Swinger to match the .890 torsion bars. I don't know the spring rates, but they seem a good match.
Just don't forget GOOD shocks. My KYB's were a waste of money with my set-up.
vm
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/04/12 09:23 PM
Like mattax said, there are a number of somewhat precise but actually kind of simple calculations that need to be known to fully dial in the needed spring rates a car need.
It all starts with total weight and front/rear weight distribution. Without at least these two, everything else is just guesses. With just these two, you can at least dial it in to where you are not just in the ball park, but you're in the right section at the stadium.
If you know your front/rear weight distribution, you can find the roll couple percentage required on the neuteral handling line. Once you know what roll couple you need, then you can find out what the required wheel rates need to be. Once you know that, then you can divide that rate into the available t-bars and s-bars to achieve balance. None of this is rocket science, it all is simple calculations actually, but if you don't have access to all the info to give you this information and know how to put it all together, then I guess it might just as well be rocket science.
In simplest terms without doing any math, you could always look up the old Direct Connection Oval Track Kit Car specifications. These tables are all published in the associated mopar oval track book. They show a variety of t-bar, s-bar and leaf spring specifications in combinations that will put you within certain ranges of roll couple distribution. You'll still need to know weight and distribution, but it is better than guessing.
IMO, the biggest issue with handling in classic mopars is the limited choice of front torsion bars. With only 5 choices in large rates ( maybe 7 if you find some of the out of production large sizes on ebay) you can only do so much with actual spring rates.
Quote:
The weight distribution should be decent on my car, I have aluminum heads/intake, manual box, battery in the trunk and a fiberglass hood.
Assuming you have a 56-58% front weight bias, and that is being generous for a big block, even with the lightening you've done, you may need around 180-200# worth of rear spring to match the 1.03 torsion bars and 1.125 sway bar. So if swap out those SS springs for something considerably softer, you may be able to get away with a rear sway bar.
Quote:
I'm not looking for anyone to do all the thinking here, I was just looking for some direction. Is it a matter of calculating a spring rate increase of the torsion bars and then adding some additional leafs to the rear? Thanks for any help.
Jeff
If your happy with the overall balance now, then yes, you can calculate the percentage of step up on your t-bars, leave your sway-bar in place, and step up the leafs a corresponding amount. However, I'm talking about the feel of balance front to rear, not whether it is a wallowing pig that rolls over for a belly scratch when you turn. If you change your front s-bar at the same time or add a rear s-bar, or it plows and slides too easily now, then the percentages have changed and that type of straight calcualtion won't work.
Posted By: Mattax
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/04/12 09:28 PM
Kzinge1 - You'll be less likely to have a a hieght adjustment issue if you talk with Just Suspension and Firm Feel (and any other vender you wish) about hex clocking before you purchase. I know Firmfeel has worked out clocking for stock weight vehicles. Just Suspension I don't know so ask.
Even better, before calling, crawl under or drive up on some 2x10 boards and measure the Chrysler ride hieght. At the same time, note how far in the torsion bar adjuster bolt is. Stock ride height is availble from any shop manual. The 1970 Chiltons's says 1968-70 Plymouth [Belvidere] spec is 1 3/8". Now you'll have some points of reference when talk to the vendors.
Posted By: Mattax
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/04/12 09:40 PM
JjS - What Tony said. You can go to the tech section on my website to see how I've used the neutral line concept. Several of the books mentioned in the Where to Start Reading thread will help with all the calcs. The B-body axles may slightly change the track and therefore the motion ratio.
I actually find rear leafs more problematic because its hard to get good specific info from many of the vendors. There's quite a bit to leaf spring design. Besides rate, there is arch, numbers and thickness of leaves (especially main leaf), interleaf, leaf end shape and placement, front to rear spring ratio, and eye placement. If you want to discuss more about rear leafs or more about your own set up its probably best to start a new thread.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/05/12 01:34 AM
Someone needs to buy some A-body bars from Dick so we can speed up the need for him to make another batch. Looks like I may have about a 2 month wait for the 1.18s I want for mine. And I just sold my .920 bars yesterday!
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/05/12 01:51 AM
Thanks again guys for the responses. You guys clearly know what you are talking about! As far as weighing the car goes and getting the front/rear bias, I don't have the scales or access to them. So my combo will not be optimized until I can get it weighed. Keep in mind though this will be a street car. My ultimate goal is to have a car that drives like a modern vehicle but has 600 HP and 620 ft-lbs.
I just got my XHD Mopar leaf springs from Summit. Do you guys happen to know their spring rate? I plan on calling Firm Feel in the morning to see what they recommend for t-bars. I'll let you know FF recommends.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/05/12 02:08 PM
While a four corner weight review is the ideal way to do it, you can get a good idea of front to rear bias with a simple truck scale. Landscaping suppliers, scrap metal dealers, drywall supply, junkyards, trucking companies, even some drag strips and oval tracks have basic drive on/off scales that can give you a rough idea of where you are at.
I've seen data on the XHD saying they are around 130-140# rate. SS springs range from 130-160#. MP Oval track springs are 120#. Used up stock springs are maybe 50-120#, depending on how abused they were.
FWIW, I believe the baseline Kit Car set up was 1" t-bars, 1" front s-bar and 120# rear leafs. XV Motorsports seems to have found that page in the Chassis manual as most of their level 1 set ups use t-bars in the 1.1 range, front sway bar in the 1.1 range, much lighter (but they wont say how much) leaf springs and a 7/8-1" axle hung rear sway bar.
http://www.xvmotorsports.com/products/detail/index.cfm?nPID=279&cid=2&cdesc=Suspension
Posted By: Mattax
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/05/12 03:23 PM
Place the spring on a level suface, arch up.
Measure the distance from surface. Lets call it Free Height.
Weigh yourself. This will be Weight.
Holding on to something, carefully load the spring with your full weight.
Remeasure from the surface to the same place on the spring pad as before. Call this Loaded Height.
Carefully get off the spring while holding on to something (or you may get tossed).
Now do the math.
Distance displaced = Free Height - Loaded Height
Spring Rate = Weight / Distance Displaced
Weight is in pounds force, Distance in inches, therefore Spring rate will be in lbs/in.
This is crude but approximately correct.
If you're a bit more ambitious, pull a string from eye center to eye center and measure the distance from the spring to the mounting pad. This is the free arch, or darn close to it.
After doing this, please share along with the exact part number of the springs. Other details you may wish to note is spring thickness (if you have a caliper or micrometer) number of full and partial leaves and bushing diameters. This will be good for your own reference but will also help others in the future.
Later you can do the same on your SS springs. In that case, you'll have to check both the left and right asthey may be different in free arch.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/06/12 12:00 AM
Quote:
Place the spring on a level suface, arch up.
Measure the distance from surface. Lets call it Free Height.
Weigh yourself. This will be Weight.
Holding on to something, carefully load the spring with your full weight.
Remeasure from the surface to the same place on the spring pad as before. Call this Loaded Height.
Carefully get off the spring while holding on to something (or you may get tossed).
So I won't get in hot water by saying the above is useful, but nearly shade tree? 
The 3 biggest concerns, IMO to getting accuracy are, your relatively limited body weight ( Ok that's a guess), the difficulty in getting an accurate (take 3 and avg results) height measurement ( and the floor? must be very rigid), and the friction the inverted steel spring eyes encounter with the ground surface ( wood, dirt, rough concrete, etc) as leaf tries to flatten, additionally I am uncertain as to how much spring rate changes (softens?) as spring approaches a flat arch. Using a heavier weight (GF?) would improve accuracy.
Regardless, the above test is likely more accurate then simply guessing for comparisons sake.
And IMO, the the love affair here with rear sway bars, is best answered by the reply that states using a rear sway bar for is best for tuning, not as a fix for other issues. To give, IMO, some credence that a sway bar is not ALWAYS required, I believe the 90's GTP Sport cars Nissans, highly successful class champions, for Multi years, raced with zero sway bars. http://www.johnstarkeycars.com/pages/books/Nissan.html
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/06/12 02:31 AM
XHD leaf spring specs: Part# 4452982, 4452983
D/S: 155 lbs/in. 6 leafs
P/S: 175 lbs/in. 7 leafs (2 half)
That's measuring the way described above, so it's not exact.
I also talked to Dick at Firm Feel today, very nice guy. I ordered the 1.06 torsion bars from him and they should be sent out next week. He said that I should have a pretty well balanced setup and that I should experiment with the rear bar. He also said the RCD shocks were very good. I bolted the new leaf springs in today and started swapping out my brakes. Should have it all done tomorrow.might be able to test drive it sometime next week.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades LEAFS/SHOCKS INSTALLED - 04/06/12 08:41 PM
Got my XHD leaf springs and Bilstein shocks installed out back. Also installed the 11" brakes and put new shoes on them. I'm leaving the rear sway bar off for now. I'm going to replace the rear brake hose because it looks a little dry-rotted. Also need to plumb in my disc/drum distribution block and my adjustable proportioning valve. I'll install the new 1.06 torsion bars as soon as they come in, hopefully before next weekend, and install the front shocks at that time too.
Posted By: astjp2
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades LEAFS/SHOCKS INSTALLED - 04/06/12 10:31 PM
Did you change the U-bolts?
Quote:
Got my XHD leaf springs and Bilstein shocks installed out back. Also installed the 11" brakes and put new shoes on them. I'm leaving the rear sway bar off for now. I'm going to replace the rear brake hose because it looks a little dry-rotted. Also need to plumb in my disc/drum distribution block and my adjustable proportioning valve. I'll install the new 1.06 torsion bars as soon as they come in, hopefully before next weekend, and install the front shocks at that time too.
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades LEAFS/SHOCKS INSTALLED - 04/06/12 11:23 PM
Yeah I put new u-bolts on. The ones that were on it weren't very old but the nuts kept getting stuck, so I cut them off.
Posted By: 1970A66
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/06/12 11:28 PM
Quote:
This is not enough front sway bar and front torsion bar to justify a 7/8 rear bar. I would consider staying away from the rear bar for now IMHO
I have to agree with this........based upon my conversation with Dick at Firm Feel. He didn't think it was necessary for my street only Challenger. He recommended his tubular upper control arms instead of the rear sway bar. The UCA's will allow for much improved handling by allowing for for more positive caster adjustment. I haven't bought them yet.
I did buy his stage 2 box, Bilstein RCD shocks and sector shaft support bearing. Great stuff!
The Bilsteins were a huge improvement for sure but I think the improvement I experienced won't be the same for the next guy. It depends on what you currently have on your car that you are replacing. Drag shocks, air shocks, cheap Monroes etc. Also if you do any other changes at the same time you install the Bilsteins, like I did.
I recommend you call Dick and talk to him, he will take his time and answer your questions based upon his vast experience!
Posted By: kzinge1
Re: Beginner Suspension Upgrades *UPDATE-SWAYBAR INSTALLED - 04/07/12 01:51 AM
I did talk to Dick at Firm Feel and he said to experiment with the rear bar. I ordered the 1.06 bars from him and he recommended the tubular uppers too. Might do them at a later date as well as the Stage 3 box. I also have the Bilsteins as well.