Moparts

Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?

Posted By: blown340

Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/12/12 07:33 PM

Just curious, the combination of R compound rubber and the longer T/A pitman arm in my challenger has really tweaked my power steering gearbox mount to the point where the bolts loosen after a hundred miles or so. Its going to be a long time until I have a chance to pull the motor and K-member to do it on the bench. Anyone done it in the car with the motor in?

Thanks,
-Jon

(And thanks Tom for the forum!)
Posted By: moparts

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/12/12 07:40 PM

Look closely at how the steering box plate is welded in, or I should say not really welded in.

On my Challenger with the k member out and clean, took a few minutes with the mig to just completely weld everywhere that the steering plate could be welded.

lot stronger and solid after welding
Posted By: 70chall440

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/12/12 09:47 PM

I recently did the K frame in my Cuda, granted the car is still in peieces, however I did a consdierable amount of research on my front suspension. First stop is Firm Feel, look at thier welded K frame. I think they still do them by request, but anyone with a welder can do it. I welded up all of the seams but more to your point, I welded/re-welded up all of the steering box mounts. Most of them were merely tacked in place. The is enough bracing already in there (unless someone before was trying to lighten the car in the wrong place), however they need to be reinforced by welding all of them. The one spot the FF (and subsequently I) added bracing is behind the steering box mount which is hallow. it doesnt take a lot of metal to fill it in to create a very solid mount.
Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/12/12 10:41 PM

Yes, a welded k frame will transform your car. It's just that it's a pita to do if the car is assembled. You can suspend everything and remove it...

The steering box mount is most important area as there is a tremendous amount of flex that occurs when you turn the steering wheel.

Attached picture 7015100-1970ChargerRT00010389.jpg
Posted By: racealittle

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/12/12 10:55 PM

Quote:

Yes, a welded k frame will transform your car. It's just that it's a pita to do if the car is assembled. You can suspend everything and remove it...

The steering box mount is most important area as there is a tremendous amount of flex that occurs when you turn the steering wheel.



Do you have more pictures that show where more plate and welding is required? Do you think some lightening holes would weaken the attempt to reinforce the structure.

I never gave any thought to welding up the K frame before. I had always thought that it should be good enough. I guess that I will learn something new here everyday.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/12/12 11:23 PM

I've been reading more and more about the gains to be found in chassis stiffening, and this thread makes as much sense as subframe connectors. I have a spare 70 B body V8 K member and I was planning on making these upgrades. Maybe I'll take step by step pictures for a future thread.

Attached picture 7015171-493(2).JPG
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/12/12 11:42 PM

Another "welded up the stock stuff" guy here. Last time I had the motor out I pulled the K member and welded that thing up proper. Gusseted the motor mounts and steering box a little, but mostly put in better/more welds than the crappy factory job. I put in a firm feel box and decided to double the amount of weld holding the box mount to the K. I also put in the big Hotchkiss sway bar and didn't like how the mounts were 1/2 suspended in mid-air so I ran a brace from the front of the mount to the top of the K.
Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/13/12 12:36 AM

putting lightening holes in the k frame is "feathers"

Every seam is welded, turn the voltage up and the feed down and weld.

Attached picture 7015295-1970ChargerRT00010388.jpg
Posted By: 70chall440

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/13/12 02:05 AM

one piece of advice I would offer is, if possible have your K frame "cooked" to clean it, or at a minimum use a lot of degreaser and high pressure to get the inside clean. If not, you will constantly be blowing out the grease fires that flare up from all of the crud inside of the K frame. One other point that was brought to my attention is, dont try and weld it all at once. Jump aound and weld a couple of inches at a time, especially around the seam. This will ensure you don't tweak the frame due to heat. I didnt do this on purpose but more by accident. While I was at a local Mopar restoration shop, the owner was telling another guy a story about a K Frame he had that someone had started on one side an started pouring heat/weld into the frame. When he tried to bolt it up, the frame was twisted some. He attributed this to the welding technique. I dont think this is a huge issue or something that is easy to screw up, I just think it is better to be safe than pissed off. I would also recommend welding the seams around the frame and then weld/brace up the steering box area; that way nothing should move. Could be wrong here but that seems to be logical to me.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/13/12 05:01 AM

Did this in 1997.

I've since bent a steel 15x8 rim going off course at Willow. To the core, not just the outer rim. But I've taking the motor out and inspected with a fine toothed comb and no problems.

Now my Mopar remanufacture steering box with 80K miles is toast though. I did get 80K miles from it, but it's unscrewing itself from the input side spanner and regular adjustment nut. Lower bearing moves around after as much adjustment as possible while still in car. I think it's just taken too many "shots to the head."

Attached picture 7015835-KmemberFixAndSwapAllMed.jpg
Posted By: astjp2

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/14/12 10:37 AM

My computer is not opening Tom's attachments, can someone post some good pics of the reinforcements they welded around the steering box mount? Maybe some pics of the control arm attaching points? Thanks Tim
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/14/12 11:03 AM

Quote:

My computer is not opening Tom's attachments, can someone post some good pics of the reinforcements they welded around the steering box mount? Maybe some pics of the control arm attaching points? Thanks Tim



Attached picture 7017787-Kmb2Lt.jpg
Posted By: rtidd440

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/20/12 10:19 AM

Quote:

Did this in 1997.

I've since bent a steel 15x8 rim going off course at Willow. To the core, not just the outer rim. But I've taking the motor out and inspected with a fine toothed comb and no problems.

Now my Mopar remanufacture steering box with 80K miles is toast though. I did get 80K miles from it, but it's unscrewing itself from the input side spanner and regular adjustment nut. Lower bearing moves around after as much adjustment as possible while still in car. I think it's just taken too many "shots to the head."



Before someone was to weld up a k member like this, is there anyway to determine if it is straight beforehand. Not as in wrecked and bent but like made correctly. I have read that the quality varied greatly. I guess what i'm saying is there a "blueprint" so you could do some measuring and make sure everything is where it should be. Or if you have a half dozen k's laying around find out which one is the nost correct of the bunch before you do all the work to it?
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/21/12 02:05 AM

Interesting thought.
I too have heard of the production variances in quality with k members. It seems that there has to be a better way to determine their accuracy than taking measurements with the K IN the car with all the other components attached.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/22/12 04:57 PM

Another approach: Adding Firm Feel's lower sector shaft support bearing kit stops the pitman from being cantilevered out there and reduces K-member flex a whole bunch -- and it is a 10-minute bolt-on!

OK, guess who designed it... ;->

Rick E.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/22/12 06:55 PM

Any installed pics?

And the purpose, if I understand it correctly, is to prevent "flexing" of the 1.25"? sector shaft, to lighten the load on the OEM sector bearings, AND to basically supply another mounting point for the PS box? I can't imagine shaft has much relative flex in the scheme of things.
Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/22/12 07:40 PM

The bearing is a nice idea but is the new bearing kit a fix for those who won't or can't or don't want to weld their k frame? It seems a properly welded/reinforced k frame would not require this additional piece as the steering box is now held very rigidly.

Has an evaluation been done to see if there is any discernible flex in the steering box mount after a full gusset and weld?
Posted By: rtidd440

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/23/12 04:14 AM

Quote:

Another approach: Adding Firm Feel's lower sector shaft support bearing kit stops the pitman from being cantilevered out there and reduces K-member flex a whole bunch -- and it is a 10-minute bolt-on!

OK, guess who designed it... ;->

Rick E.



Was hoping to see you chime in on this one. Those are for sure on my list for any of my non resto cars. How about it Rick. Got any factory blueprints for K members? Or how would you determine how "square" on was? Could you bolt everything to it and measure from one reference point? I know you have a way. BTW i have all of the MA's and some of your pre MA stuff. Refer to it often. First thing I read when the new issue shows up. Thanks man. Good job.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/24/12 03:13 AM

Quote:

The bearing is a nice idea but is the new bearing kit a fix for those who won't or can't or don't want to weld their k frame? It seems a properly welded/reinforced k frame would not require this additional piece as the steering box is now held very rigidly.

Has an evaluation been done to see if there is any discernible flex in the steering box mount after a full gusset and weld?



I usually use the unscientific approach, by looking at how much the pressure hose's chuck end (on PS cars) moves around when moving the steering wheel back 'n' forth a few inches, car at rest. In fact, this is how I discovered K flex 40 years ago!

From what I've seen, this simple bolt-on helps more than all the gusseting I've done over the years, and that's a lot! In fact, unless I was building another real road racer or auto-X'er, this is all I would bother with.

Again, I haven't measured, this is an eyeball estimation. Measurements, to be worth anything, would need to be done on the same car, same weight, same tire footprint and air pressure, etc.

Remember, no matter how much stiffness you add, the pitman (w/o the added bearing) will still be cantilevered out there.

'Course, it can never be too stiff... ;->

Rick
Posted By: astjp2

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/24/12 03:29 AM

You may want to call your doctor if it remains that way for more than 4 hours! Hahahahaha

Quote:

Quote:

'Course, it can never be too stiff... ;->

Rick

Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 01/24/12 08:05 PM

So could you please invent us a bearing assy for the idler arm then? I really like the idea esp with a welded k frame.

In a k frame related issue from running lots of laps - Even with one of the good urethane mounts the engine needs to be restrained a bit further. I have found the need for a second Schumacher style torque strap installed on passenger side of the k frame. What is happening is the engine is compressing the right side mount pushing the collector[tti] and exhaust system [tti]towards the ground. Holding just one side makes the problem worse. It can be seen in the pics of the cars at speed and in the tearing of the rubber portion of the exhaust hanger at the muffler... I had this problem is with both bb/sb engines. The 2nd torque strap is a pita but it works.
Posted By: MoparMarq

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 07/23/12 06:24 AM

Quote:

Any installed pics?


I'll have one of the sector support kit by the end of the week. (It's kind of handy having Firm Feel less than a mile away.)
Quote:


And the purpose, if I understand it correctly, is to prevent "flexing" of the 1.25"? sector shaft, to lighten the load on the OEM sector bearings, AND to basically supply another mounting point for the PS box? I can't imagine shaft has much relative flex in the scheme of things.


If you take a look at the FSM, it is plainly obvious that the design of the steering gears does not plan for very high steering loads. The "cross shaft", or what we have have been referring to as the sector shaft, has ONE bearing supporting the load. Mainly, it appears that the bearing is to precisely locate the cross shaft w.r.t. the worm (input) shaft. The bottom end is held mainly by the housing, seal, and dust boot.

The "flex" in the steering system is a combination of (a) sector shaft flex, which admittedly is likely small, (b) housing flex, also probably fairly small, and K-frame steering gear mount point flex, which probably is the majority.

I see the sector support kit as having a two-fold purpose:
(1) reducing the flex of the above mentioned elements, and
(2) reducing the stress and wear on the steering gear housing at the lower end from the loads on the sector shaft.

We've all driven late-model cars - even my '86 Supra is still better than the RR in the handling department - why not help our vintage iron as much as possible with the tech improvements?
Posted By: MadMatt

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 07/23/12 06:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The bearing is a nice idea but is the new bearing kit a fix for those who won't or can't or don't want to weld their k frame? It seems a properly welded/reinforced k frame would not require this additional piece as the steering box is now held very rigidly.

Has an evaluation been done to see if there is any discernible flex in the steering box mount after a full gusset and weld?



I usually use the unscientific approach, by looking at how much the pressure hose's chuck end (on PS cars) moves around when moving the steering wheel back 'n' forth a few inches, car at rest. In fact, this is how I discovered K flex 40 years ago!

From what I've seen, this simple bolt-on helps more than all the gusseting I've done over the years, and that's a lot! In fact, unless I was building another real road racer or auto-X'er, this is all I would bother with.

Again, I haven't measured, this is an eyeball estimation. Measurements, to be worth anything, would need to be done on the same car, same weight, same tire footprint and air pressure, etc.

Remember, no matter how much stiffness you add, the pitman (w/o the added bearing) will still be cantilevered out there.

'Course, it can never be too stiff... ;->

Rick



I installed one on my '70 Dart with Firm Feel level II box. It did take more like an hour than 10 minutes, but I work slow. However, it was definitely worth the money and the effort, and I could immediately feel the difference.
Posted By: Dan P

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 03/25/24 09:23 PM

Hey there,

I'm new to this forum, but a long time Mopar guy.

I am looking to purchase a support shaft bearing kit like the one in the pic for my 1970 Challenger convertible but haven't ben able to find it for sale online...anyone point me to the right place. I'm also planning to do some reinforcing of my K-member now that I've read this thread. Good info here.
Posted By: BDW

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 03/26/24 11:06 AM

Firm Feel

https://firmfeel.com/products/sector-support-kit?_pos=1&_psq=su&_ss=e&_v=1.0
Posted By: larry4406

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 03/26/24 12:03 PM

Pictures of this installed?

I am having a hard time visualizing this.
Posted By: Dan P

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 03/26/24 03:34 PM

YEEEEESSSS!!!! Thank you so much!
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 03/27/24 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by Dan P
Hey there,

I'm new to this forum, but a long time Mopar guy.

I am looking to purchase a support shaft bearing kit like the one in the pic for my 1970 Challenger convertible but haven't ben able to find it for sale online...anyone point me to the right place. I'm also planning to do some reinforcing of my K-member now that I've read this thread. Good info here.


https://firmfeel.com/collections/power-steering/products/sector-support-kit?variant=45577381445950

They sell the gusset DIY kit for the K frame too.

Kevin
Posted By: AndyF

Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car? - 03/28/24 12:20 AM

Just do what the old NASCAR boys used to do. They would weld the K frame right to the car just to make everything nice and stiff. Here is a picture of a NASCAR chassis I took a few years ago. I think this chassis was from the 70's or maybe early 80's. It was still a torsion bar, leaf spring car so it was before the switch to trailing arms and coil springs.

Some of the parts are interesting to look at. The fabricated knuckle is very crude. Looks like a disc brake knuckle welded to a truck knuckle? The anti sway bar setup is fabricated, the strut bar is gigantic, the hubs are from an Imperial or a light truck or something along those lines.

Attached picture 9-24 (Large).jpg
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