Posted By: Molloy
Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 12:35 PM
Anyone TIG sheetmetal (bodywork) without inducing warpage? I sure as heck can't do it....
Anyone use TIG for bodywork
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 12:40 PM
tig can put to much heat in the metal, mig is the
only way to do sheet metal, I have tried both
just to try it
only way to do sheet metal, I have tried both
just to try it
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 01:19 PM
I agree completely. Trouble is, I don't have a MIG, I have a TIG machine.
Posted By: AdamMopar
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 01:21 PM
It can be done. I've also seen it warp the heck out of stuff too. If you do one little spot at a time and wait until it cools completely, and jump around you should be okay. You can get a MIG setup for about 400 dollars or so. Might be worth it. Adam
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork? - 12/12/03 01:35 PM
Quote:
If you do one little spot at a time and wait until it cools completely, and jump around you should be okay.
Adam
I do that. I think I'm running ~30amps, and after tacking everything, I do ~1/4" stitches. Then I cool the spot with compressed air or a wet rag (tried both). I also move around to opposite sides of the patch. Still warps, and it warps BAD. I'me beginning to think that the warping has more to do with the nature of the stresses in the bead than it does with the heating of the surrounding material. When I went to a 1/4" stitch (down from a 1/2" stitch), I noticed that I could pretty much touch any part of the patch with my bare hands, and if that ain't cool enough, I don't know what is.
I've noticed that I can do succesful TIG welds on small, heavily curved portions of sheetmetal, like doorjams, but any open, flat metal like a quarter panel... forget it. It's gonna be heavy bondo time...
Posted By: 70_440sixbbl_RR
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork? - 12/12/03 03:39 PM
Borrow, buy or rent a MIG. You are repeatedly hitting yourself in the foot with a hammer with all that warping. 
Heck, you would be better off using pop rivits. 
Heck, you would be better off using pop rivits.
Posted By: lgjhn
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 04:43 PM
Many moons ago, I tried it and miserable results.
TIG carries too much heat for light sheetmetal IMHO. It works great on some of the heavier sheetmetal etc. say around the framerails, door posts etc, but for open panels I found it to be a disaster to say the least.
MIG is the only way to go on panels IMO. To do otherwise, it just making more work for yourself.
TIG carries too much heat for light sheetmetal IMHO. It works great on some of the heavier sheetmetal etc. say around the framerails, door posts etc, but for open panels I found it to be a disaster to say the least.
MIG is the only way to go on panels IMO. To do otherwise, it just making more work for yourself.
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork? - 12/12/03 04:44 PM
Quote:
Borrow, buy or rent a MIG.
Yeah, that's my gut feeling, I was just hoping that if someone has successfully done 19-20 gauge sheetmetal bodywork with TIG, it would tell me that it is at least possible...in theory.
I really don't feel like spending money on a MIG welder, because, for the most part, I think they weld like crap (no penetration, splatter, slop, toothpaste welds, etc), but in this case, that's is what you need! We have a 200A MIG at my work. In fact, I was the one that bought it, because I knew everyone could pick it up and run with it.
Posted By: lgjhn
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork? - 12/12/03 04:54 PM
Quote:
I think they weld like crap (no penetration, splatter, slop, toothpaste welds, etc
I was under that same opinion about MIG for a long time because all of my past experience was heavy construction pipe welding such as in a nuclear plant, but once I got the hang of it and finally got the heat/feed set up properly, I found it to weld pretty darn good for this light sheetmetal stuff.
I probably wouldn't try to do real heavy welds with it, but it certainly makes sheetmetal work a whole lot easier.
Posted By: dbdartman
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork? - 12/12/03 05:01 PM
Quote:
I really don't feel like spending money on a MIG welder, because, for the most part, I think they weld like crap (no penetration, splatter, slop, toothpaste welds, etc), but in this case, that's is what you need! We have a 200A MIG at my work. In fact, I was the one that bought it, because I knew everyone could pick it up and run with it.
First, if your Mig welds are coming out that bad, there's something set wrong. Second, don't think you'll take that 200 amp machine (with it's .030" or .035" wire) & not warp the panels just as bad as with the Tig! .024" max, C-25 (25% co2) or straight argon. This is actually where I'd prefer a cheap 110V machine over a 220... Oh, & third, you need a really small tungsten diameter & there's still no guarentee it won't warp like crazy. (Have you tried running the high frequency continuously in DC? I found that it stablized the arc better than "straight" DC when doing REALLY low amp jobs.)
Posted By: Scouttoo
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 05:51 PM
I'm not sure if it is an option for you but why not use panel adhesive (a type of epoxy) to attach the panels? The seam is completely sealed from moisture when epoxy is used and most of all-no warpage!!! I used epoxy on all my panels and I will never weld a panel on again.
I used epoxy on all my panels and I will never weld a panel on again.
Posted By: AdamMopar
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 05:55 PM
Quote:
I'm not sure if it is an option for you but why not use panel adhesive (a type of epoxy) to attach the panels? The seam is completely sealed from moisture when epoxy is used and most of all-no warpage!!! I used epoxy on all my panels and I will never weld a panel on again.
I don't konw I woudl never use adhesive on a seam that will be seen. From what I have heard it's just about guranteed that eventually you will be able to see where teh seam is. Adam
Posted By: GregGarner
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 06:01 PM
I use TIG exclusively. I did a lot of research with many different sources, including different books and several different metal shapers. The consensus of all the research I did was that TIG was better than MIG if you were a good welder. TIG is harder to learn because you have to coordinate the action of the welding rod and the welder. The TIG was considered to be better because you can control how much metal and heat goes into the panel better than the MIG.
I personally started out with a MIG, and switched over to a TIG. I found that the MIG usually put too much metal in, and sometimes would not fully melt the metal. I switched over to the TIG and had to redo some of the stuff I did with MIG.
I recommend TIG.
I personally started out with a MIG, and switched over to a TIG. I found that the MIG usually put too much metal in, and sometimes would not fully melt the metal. I switched over to the TIG and had to redo some of the stuff I did with MIG.
I recommend TIG.
Posted By: 70_440sixbbl_RR
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 06:36 PM
Sounds like it's time to take a welding class. 
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 06:53 PM
Quote:
Sounds like it's time to take a welding class.
Go buy a 110 mig welder and the bottle set-up
dont even try tiggin it, I am a cert. welder and
I wont waste my time tiggin sheet metal like on
a quarter, mig is a much faster process, stich
a little, a little there, cooling with a rag, you
will be done before you know it
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork? - 12/12/03 07:08 PM
Quote:Quote:
I really don't feel like spending money on a MIG welder, because, for the most part, I think they weld like crap (no penetration, splatter, slop, toothpaste welds, etc), but in this case, that's is what you need! We have a 200A MIG at my work. In fact, I was the one that bought it, because I knew everyone could pick it up and run with it.
First, if your Mig welds are coming out that bad, there's something set wrong. Second, don't think you'll take that 200 amp machine (with it's .030" or .035" wire) & not warp the panels just as bad as with the Tig! .024" max, C-25 (25% co2) or straight argon. This is actually where I'd prefer a cheap 110V machine over a 220... Oh, & third, you need a really small tungsten diameter & there's still no guarentee it won't warp like crazy. (Have you tried running the high frequency continuously in DC? I found that it stablized the arc better than "straight" DC when doing REALLY low amp jobs.)
We use the 200A machine at work for stuctural stuff, fixtures, maintenance, etc.
As for my colorful description of MIG weld beads, I guess I've seen sooo many bad mig welds, that I just assume all are like that. We do have a custom fabricator that we contract out work too, and there MIG welds look beautiful -- looks like a stack of dimes. Mine look like poo.
I'll look into other options like electode positive mode or AC.
Thanks for the responses.
Molloy
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 07:12 PM
Quote:
Sounds like it's time to take a welding class.
Took two semesters at the local JC before I bought my TIG. I cut my teeth on stick welding.
Just not used to doing thin COSMETIC stuff. Actually my beads are beautiful, the trouble is the resulting warping.
Posted By: RichV
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork? - 12/12/03 08:31 PM
I do that. I think I'm running ~30amps, and after tacking everything, I do ~1/4" stitches.
Is 30 amps as low as you machine goes. Some of the better tig power sources can also be used with a spool gun or other stand alone wire feed with trigger. My Lincoln Econo Tig goes down to 12 amps, but can not be used as a power source for a mig gun.
Posted By: motorheadjohn
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 11:19 PM
I took Ron Covell's basic steel metalworking workshop at Roy Brizzio's stop in San Francisco. He covered all sorts of techniques for forming steel sheet, working out dents, etc. I would highly recommend this seminar for anyone interested in old cars.
Ron used gas and TIG for the welding in the class. One of the sample he did was to cut a 4x4" patch out of the center of a piece of sheet then reinstall it like a rust patch. He welded 1/2 of it with oxy-acetelene and the other half with TIG. His heat control was awesome with both methods, and there was much more heat signature on the gas bead but little warpage with either. He then proceded to metal work the whole thing smooth. The lesson? You can use either method for sheet metal. I still have the piece he did and can post pics of it if you want to see them.
Ron said TIG is his method of choice and doesn't use MIG much at all. Ron is a metal-working master of course, so he made it look easy, and he had top-notch TIG equipment to work with at Brizzio's studio. Not for a beginner but definitely can be done....
Ron used gas and TIG for the welding in the class. One of the sample he did was to cut a 4x4" patch out of the center of a piece of sheet then reinstall it like a rust patch. He welded 1/2 of it with oxy-acetelene and the other half with TIG. His heat control was awesome with both methods, and there was much more heat signature on the gas bead but little warpage with either. He then proceded to metal work the whole thing smooth. The lesson? You can use either method for sheet metal. I still have the piece he did and can post pics of it if you want to see them.
Ron said TIG is his method of choice and doesn't use MIG much at all. Ron is a metal-working master of course, so he made it look easy, and he had top-notch TIG equipment to work with at Brizzio's studio. Not for a beginner but definitely can be done....
Posted By: tilt
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/12/03 11:54 PM
I bought the 110V Lincoln HD3200 from Home Depot for $463 and i love it.Go with the 80lb argon bottle,it's way cheaper and less fill ups.
Jeff
Ps check the attached pic.
Jeff
Ps check the attached pic.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/13/03 01:10 AM
Doesn't anyone braze panels on anymore? I learned how to some 20 years ago but i couldn't tell you how to now 
. Uses lower heat and finishes real well. If you think using a Tig on flat panels is hard, try using Oxy-Acet.
Dave
. Uses lower heat and finishes real well. If you think using a Tig on flat panels is hard, try using Oxy-Acet.Dave
Posted By: Leigh
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/13/03 03:00 AM
This is the tig hacker talking. For body work, try some silicon bronze rod. I used ER70S6 for the inner aprons on the Dart, and, they ended pretty nice, (after a bazzillon %%$$@@&&), but silicone bronze is the cat's bottom. Try here. www.tigdepot.com
Posted By: 4speeds4me
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/13/03 03:50 AM
My only real experience welding in my life has been Mig welding exhaust. It doesn't get any easier!
I decided that I wanted to do some panel replacement so I bought a 110V unit for myself. First car went pretty good with a flange joint. I read about butt-welding. Hey, let's try that now...so I did. My FIRST butt-weld may not have been a professional quality butt weld, but there was virtually NO warpage and I have WAY less clean-up to do (grinding wise) than when I was flanging my joints.
I don't know if it wound up in the archives here, but one of the members did an AWESOME job of explaining how to do it, and by simply following their instructions, I did a job many (myself included) would be proud of.
My .02...
I decided that I wanted to do some panel replacement so I bought a 110V unit for myself. First car went pretty good with a flange joint. I read about butt-welding. Hey, let's try that now...so I did. My FIRST butt-weld may not have been a professional quality butt weld, but there was virtually NO warpage and I have WAY less clean-up to do (grinding wise) than when I was flanging my joints.I don't know if it wound up in the archives here, but one of the members did an AWESOME job of explaining how to do it, and by simply following their instructions, I did a job many (myself included) would be proud of.
My .02...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/13/03 05:25 AM
hey all-
i have my own 110V Lincoln MIG machine, but i have not done any body work...although I have done an oil pan for my uncles racecar motor(yea i know im 15 but im "advanced" ok? HAHA)...the oil pan came out GREAT! i couldnt of been happier and i dont think my uncle could of either...
BUT...i did learn alot on this thread! so in most peoples opinion, MIG is better for sheetmetal huh? thats good to know! my dad wants SOOOO much body work on a pro street trailduster he is building...
when you talk grinding sheet metal...what do you use? of course I have the 4 1/2 inch angle grinder, but i only have the hard grinding disks..for like taking ALOT of metal off. there is NO WAY I HELL i would use this on a body! i have seen other guys using different wheels but i dont knwo what they are or where i can buy them! i have heard of them being called "flapper disks", is this what you use for grinding A LITTLE BIT of metal off and not the whoel quarter panel or whatever your grinding!? LOL
one more thing, can anyone find the post and possibly put a link to it on this thread f the post that 4speeds4me was talkin about when someone went thru the entire process of doing body work welding?
THANKS!
Kyle
i have my own 110V Lincoln MIG machine, but i have not done any body work...although I have done an oil pan for my uncles racecar motor(yea i know im 15 but im "advanced" ok? HAHA)...the oil pan came out GREAT! i couldnt of been happier and i dont think my uncle could of either...
BUT...i did learn alot on this thread! so in most peoples opinion, MIG is better for sheetmetal huh? thats good to know! my dad wants SOOOO much body work on a pro street trailduster he is building...
when you talk grinding sheet metal...what do you use? of course I have the 4 1/2 inch angle grinder, but i only have the hard grinding disks..for like taking ALOT of metal off. there is NO WAY I HELL i would use this on a body! i have seen other guys using different wheels but i dont knwo what they are or where i can buy them! i have heard of them being called "flapper disks", is this what you use for grinding A LITTLE BIT of metal off and not the whoel quarter panel or whatever your grinding!? LOL
one more thing, can anyone find the post and possibly put a link to it on this thread f the post that 4speeds4me was talkin about when someone went thru the entire process of doing body work welding?
THANKS!
Kyle
Posted By: Iron_Iceberg
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/13/03 06:54 AM
Well Ive been using my Hobart MIG for years now and have done just about anything with it. From sheet to plate to Alum.
I finaly got a deal on a TIG that I couldnt pass up and let me tell you its a WHOLE NEW WORLD out there. This is way more comlicated than the Mig ever was. Its not the welding. I have also gas welded for years but there are so many different ways to TIG from air cooled tips to water cooled tips to different types of gasses to different types of tungston electrodes to metal prep. ect ect ect.
Ive talked to guys who build cromemoly race bike frames that are in the Tour De France that purge there frames with nitrogen before welding to a guy who builds stainless exaust systems. And will only use water cooled tips.
To Team Tourch who practices welding on a neadle.
There are just so many varibles that to do it right you will need to be taught by someone like Ron Covel who knows just what you need for a certan process. Or at least get one of his books.
It was interesting when they asked Jesse James the bike guy what he would like to be rembered as. And he said "As a really good welder" I think he realised just how hard it is too be good at many different types of welding.
Im having fun but WHOO what a learning curve.
I finaly got a deal on a TIG that I couldnt pass up and let me tell you its a WHOLE NEW WORLD out there. This is way more comlicated than the Mig ever was. Its not the welding. I have also gas welded for years but there are so many different ways to TIG from air cooled tips to water cooled tips to different types of gasses to different types of tungston electrodes to metal prep. ect ect ect.
Ive talked to guys who build cromemoly race bike frames that are in the Tour De France that purge there frames with nitrogen before welding to a guy who builds stainless exaust systems. And will only use water cooled tips.
To Team Tourch who practices welding on a neadle.
There are just so many varibles that to do it right you will need to be taught by someone like Ron Covel who knows just what you need for a certan process. Or at least get one of his books.
It was interesting when they asked Jesse James the bike guy what he would like to be rembered as. And he said "As a really good welder" I think he realised just how hard it is too be good at many different types of welding.
Im having fun but WHOO what a learning curve.
Posted By: 4speeds4me
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/13/03 06:54 AM
Sorry. I didn't check the archives, but I checked the stuff I save from Moparts (and I swore I had saved this one) but I can't find it...
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/13/03 06:44 PM
Thanks for all the responses again (love this board). I think I'm already using the ER70S6 rod. What I may do next is see about getting a thinner electrode and rod for really low amps. Funny thing is I've got Covell's video where he does patch panels on an old Morgan. I thought I followed his directions....
See pic of enclosed welding project for view of my welds (bat-proof mailbox made from 3/16" plate, DOM roll cage tubing, and scrolls). Thick stuff sure is easier...
See pic of enclosed welding project for view of my welds (bat-proof mailbox made from 3/16" plate, DOM roll cage tubing, and scrolls). Thick stuff sure is easier...
Posted By: 70SWGR
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/13/03 08:03 PM
My first welding job I started in a stainless shop and all we used were miller tigs and this was on 16 to 20 gauge stainless.We built restaurant packages for Red Lobster,Olive Garden,Zio's,Sonic and others.We built large tables and salad bars and it couldn't be warped all to hell when you were done so fitting,the use of cooling bars,wet rags and the ability to control your heat was very important.When fitting sheetmetal both parts need to be flush because if you have any gaps it's going to pull when welded and you need tacks every 1/4".We flashtacked everything and to do this you set the machine on 150 amps and at a 100% then with no hood on just turn your head and quickly stab the pedal and let off and after getting used to it you can vary the size of the tacks plus move along quickly.I'm wanting to try this on my car's sheetmetal and just flashtack the whole seam moving around and using a wet rag until it's all sealed and there shouldn't be hardly any heat in the panel and hardly any warpage.If you're going to try to weld a 1/2" at a time use a wet rag and move around plus weld into another weld instead of starting at the end of a weld then stopping this keeps it from pulling as much.Also thin sheetmetal is easily penetrated so run small and narrow beads and travel quickly with your torch and as soon as you lift up slap a wet rag on it.We mainly used 1/16 tungsten and water cooled torches.
I didn't learn any of this in welding school.I learned it from guys in this stainless shop who had been doing it for 30 to 40 years.I found out quickly what they called "shop experience".
Brian
I didn't learn any of this in welding school.I learned it from guys in this stainless shop who had been doing it for 30 to 40 years.I found out quickly what they called "shop experience".
Brian
Posted By: Iron_Iceberg
Re: Anyone use TIG for bodywork - 12/13/03 10:52 PM
LOL, Love that :Bat proof mail box" That has to shake your arm when you hit it.
That has to shake your arm when you hit it.