Posted By: sasquatch
2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/02/06 05:19 AM
OK Stupid question time! When I am filling up my CTD these days and trying not to watch the dollars evaporate from my wallet, I have seen all these signs saying that it is low sulfur fuel and that it is not to be used in 2007 or newer trucks. Yeah, I know why but exactly where are the guys who own 2007 trucks getting their fuel???
Are there going to be different pumps? Anybody? I am sure I will feel dumb when someone explains this but enquiring minds can't sleep anyway.Todd
Posted By: Roughrdr
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/02/06 06:48 AM
The fuel you are pumping may be LSD, as not all of it is out of the system yet. Gonna take awhile to get it out of the pipelines and tanks.
also 2007 models are supposed to be run on ULSD, not the old diesel (LSD or low sulphur Diesel)
But soon I believe the only place to get LSD is out of the country.
Other than that, I haven't a clue.
Trying to snooze here as well.
Posted By: 65pacecar
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/02/06 12:25 PM
Will the older diesels do okay on the ULSD? How will it affect their mileage and power? Also, does the ULSD have any of the lubricants in it to protect the pumps? I know the old diesel fuel did, but in the last few years the lubricant package in the LSD was somewhat stripped from diesel and it was some of the cause of pump failures from all three (Cummins, Duramax and PS), I know the VP44 had a weak LP that caused most of their failures though.
Posted By: Quikshft
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/02/06 02:38 PM
I thought I read something on MSN just a day or so ago (can't find it now) that said YOU are responsible to make sure you're pumping ultra low sulfer fuel in your truck if that's what it requires. The article said pump nozzles at the stations will be the same size (leads me to believe that both grades may be available simultaneously) and also that a single tank of low sulfer fuel will certainly damage the emmision system of the 2007 diesel engines designed to run on Ultra Low stuff.
Posted By: BobR
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/02/06 03:59 PM
They began selling ultra low diesel just yesterday here in Ca. It's my understanding that as of yesterday all service stations that provide diesel HAD to have the ultra low available. -Bob
Posted By: RUNCHARGER
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/02/06 04:37 PM
We were supposed to change over here in the fall. However the oil companies have been supplying the ULSD for four months now without broadcasting it to the public.
Sheldon
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/02/06 05:35 PM
Quote:
They began selling ultra low diesel just yesterday here in Ca. It's my understanding that as of yesterday all service stations that provide diesel HAD to have the ultra low available. -Bob
Actually you have been getting the ULSD for awhile.. They may have just removed the stickers but that because they had to wait for the EPA to test the pumps and certify that they met ULSD specs(15PPM).. The refinery where I work has been producing ULSD only since June 1st..
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/02/06 05:44 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Will the older diesels do okay on the ULSD? How will it affect their mileage and power? Also, does the ULSD have any of the lubricants in it to protect the pumps?
Being in the market for a used CTD, I would really like some info on the above also....
The older trucks will run fine on the ULSD as it has lubricity improvers added to it.. One thing you need to keep an eye on is the fuel lines and seals as the ULSD may make them shrink and leak.. Also mileage and power will probably decrease because the ULSD has less energy than LSD..
Posted By: RUNCHARGER
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/03/06 01:42 AM
Yeah these bright boys that ram stuff down our throats figure that having a fuel that produces less energy will pollute less. I don't know how that works when you use more of this new fuel to do the same work. I noticed a big difference in mileage and power with the C-15 in the Peterbilt, using more fuel has to pollute more.
Sheldon
Posted By: hemi70
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/03/06 04:32 AM
I was recently told that the primary reason that the ULSD fuel is required for most of the '07 vehicals is that their exhaust system is equipped with a "particulate" trap to limit the amount of soot and any other debris they emit.
The LSD fuel has more sulfur than the trap can handle over extended use.
Trap can clog and cause restriction.
The '07 5.9 CTD is one exception to the rule (no trap) so LSD is O.K.
The 6.7 cummins and the 3.0 engine that will be in the Grand Cherokee (early '07) have the trap.
Gary.
Posted By: IronYuppie
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/03/06 10:38 AM
Fuel mileage and pollution aren't the same thing. A vehicle without proper emissions controls creates a lot of pollution, regardless of how many miles per gallon it gets. The actual fuel savings will come as more diesel passenger cars are produced -- which previously weren't possible because they flunked many emissions standards.
Posted By: Rug_Trucker
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/03/06 12:00 PM
All I know is biodoozle is suppossed to clean out the crap in your lines and tanks. You need to carry filters when you switch.
Does it really smell like French fries?
Posted By: finn
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/03/06 01:24 PM
Biodiesel is ok up to 5% (B5)as it is largely indistinguishable from D2. Beyond that you're on your own, as there are no ASTM standards for Biodiesel stability. In fact there's no agreed upon test STANDARD at all in the US for stability with Biodiesel. Caveat Emptor. European Biodiesel comes primarily from rapeseed, while ours is mostly soy based, although there is talk of building a giant refinery in Canada to refine poultry fat into biodiesel. (actually, I think NREL says the animal based Bio is more stable). The rapeseed stuff does have a (European) stability test, but the test doesn't work on the soy based stuff we get.
The B20 stories about it cleaning the gunk from the system and plugging filters are in fact true: The higher the concentration of bio, the more likely that you will have filter problems. Cummins and DCX have ok'd B20 for use in controlled fleets, where the fuel quality is closely controlled. Otherwise B5 is the limit.
Bio fuels like B5 actually have better lubricity than normal D2. The new ULSD D2 comes with a HIGHER minimum lubricity standard than the old D2 LSD. This new standard was driven by the fuel system and engine manufacturers (International, Cummins, GM, Bosch, Siemens, etc)to meet the requirements of the newer high pressure common rail fuel systems. Lubricity with the old LSD was generally ok, but there was very wide variability across the country, depending on the base stock and refinery process used to make Diesel.
Lots of our fuel has been coming from Canada and processed by Hydrocracking, which yields a very low lubricity and leads to subsequent high fuel pump failure rates. The new standards insure that a Higher minimum lubricity, although not as good as Europe, will be out there. Additives to improve lubricity are now added at the refinery and additional mouse milk additions at the pump are unnecessary with ULSD.
Energy content of the new ULSD is around 1% worse than the old LSD. Real world (controlled) fleet tests reported by the industry indicate the 1% is lost in data scatter. The energy content loss is believed to be due to the hydrocracking stripping the long chain HC molecules along with the sulfur removal. The Oil industry is working on this.
As to fuel system leaks, the problem is that the different types of rubbers in the fuel system react to the aeromatics in the fuel. All rubbers take a set or swell with exposure to fuel over time. Dramatic changes in fuel aeromatics cause problems with some seal formulations, The new fuels have different aeromatic content.
Newer engines shouldn't have problems as the seal materials have been upgraded by the manufacturers over the years, but if your engine is old, get ready to replace the seals.
A tank or two of the old LSD won't hurt the particulate filter of an o7 Diesel, but continued use will plug it and shorten the interval between ash removal service. LSD will not be available after this fall when the conversion to ULSD is complete.
Off road (red dyed) high sulfur diesel will be out there for a couple of more years, but eventually that will go away too.
Finn
Posted By: Rug_Trucker
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/03/06 01:28 PM
YYou would think a chicken fat refinery would be in "Tysonsaw" I mean Arkansas!!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/03/06 06:41 PM
Quote:
Hey Warlock, do you know the exact level of sulphur thats going into ULSD? I know the end result is to be 15PPM, but I read in a trade magazine that, because of the residue in the pipeline, the refined product has more like 5PPM at the refinery-it is true?
Wayne I do not know for sure since I do not work in ourcude unit but have heard 8ppm.. I will ask tonight when I get to work and hopefully have you an answer in the AM..
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/04/06 11:05 AM
Quote:
I read in a trade magazine that, because of the residue in the pipeline, the refined product has more like 5PPM at the refinery-it is true?
Wayne It leaves out plant 7.4ppm maximum but most of it is around 4
Posted By: WayneM
Re: 2007 Diesel Fuel - 09/05/06 12:43 AM
Very interesting, Warlock. Thanks. I wonder if they'll raise it as the pipeline settles?
I did a fuel sample/ drain yesterday, checking for water and the fuel still has that yellow/blueish sheen in daylight. Didn't see any water.