Moparts

Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure

Posted By: JeffsCustomPaint

Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/03/05 11:09 AM

Alot of you People building your own cars
requested the process to attach skins using
Panel Bonding Adhesive.
Quarter Panel Bonding
Step 1. Remove all trim and any glass that needs to be removed.
Step 2. Jack vehicle up in rear and support
body with jack stands(try to make car level)
remove wheel.
Step 3. Look at new panel and determine attachement points and seams.
Using a grinder(air powered is best) with 24or 36
grit disc,grind paint off at any seams where
new panel must attach, grinding lead out of seam
exposing spot welds(not necessary on partial 1/4)
Step 4.Using a spot weld drill bit,drill out spot welds.
Drilling spot welds
A. Using a wire wheel on drill or die grinder
remove paint exposing any spotwelds that you
may not see,or covered with paint on all seams.
B. using a centerpunch,punch the center of all
spotwelds.
C.Using a spotweld cutter(Blair,Blair RotaBroach)
Drill panel till it goes thru one thickness of
metal.Drilling out each weld.
Spotwelds are located on all seams,wheel opening,
and joints.Do Not Drill Thru Metal All The Way.

D. Using a flat scraper or chisel and hammer,
slide between the two metals and pry the two
layers of metal.If metal doesn't pop apart,look
for a weld you missed or not drilled deep enough.
you may have to chisel between welds to release
if small bit of metal is holding panel.

Step 5. After drilling all welds look for any
spots that may have been brazed(brass welding)
if you find take a torch heating brass and
using a small prybar or scraper lift on panel
while heatng(Caution,Do Not Get Metal Red Hot)
torch should melt brass and release panel.

Step 6.Remove old skin. Taking a hammer
and dolly.Straighten any edges that may have
gotten bent during removal.

Step 7.Grind smooth and remove paint from
all welding flanges and seams.

Step 8.Fit new panel in place making sure
edges and body lines match adjacent panels.
Hold in place using clamps or cleeko pins.
Cleeko's are good for realigning panel during
bonding process.
On the back seam along rear bodypanel,drill
some 5/16ths holes into 1/4 skin for plug
welding it to rear body panel later.
(stitch welds can be used instead also)
Step 9.Remove new panel and place face down.
Take ginder and remove black E-coat around
inside edges(panel mateing surface)grind coating
off about half to three quarters wide.
Step 10.Apply a bead of Panel Bonding Adhesive
around inside edge of 1/4 skin, using a plastic spreader,
spread adhesive smooth covering all bare metal.

Step 11. Apply bead of adhesive on body flanges
where 1/4 skin meets,and smooth also like above.

Step 12. Apply 1/8in. bead of adhesive around
body flange surfaces.
Step 13. Place 1/4 skin on car aligning panel
to adjacent panels,making sure gaps are even
and bodylines line up.Then clamp in place
using vice grips or cleeko holding pins.
Let panel dry according to adhesive instructions.
Plug or stitch weld the rear body joint after
the adhesive has cured.
Partial 1/4 skin supplement
A. When removing old 1/4 skin cut along edge
of 1/4 leaving approx. 2 inches extra metal
underneath where top edge of partial skin stops.
B. Remove old skin and place partial skin
in place,aligning panel to adjacent panels.
C. Taking 3/4 masking tape,tape along edge of
partial skin (tape above partial 1/4 edge)
D. This step requires a flanging tool
(Air operated or hand pliers)Flange a piece
of scrap metal.Measure from edge of metal to
where crimp in metal is.Using this measurement
mark old 1/4.
E. Measure from edge of tape down to the
above crimp width measurement.cut excess metal
off to bottom of new mark.
F. Flange metal along length of old 1/4 at edge.
G. Place new partial skin in place,align panel
and check to make sure edge of panel sits
flush in flange.(trim edge of 1/4 skin if
necessary)
H. Clamp new panel in place(aligning gaps and
body lines) drill 1/8th in. holes thru
1/4 skin along seam halfway down from edge of
old and top of new panel.Secure with cleeko pins
or screws.
I. remove panel and grind coating off inside
of partial 1/4 approx. 1/2 in. down from edge.
grind any paint along old 1/4 edge.
J. Apply a liberal amount of adhesive to both
old 1/4 and new skin using same method as
above mentioned process. apply the 1/8th in.
bead of adhesive along flange and place 1/4 skin
in place.
K. align skin and put cleeko's or screws in
excisting holes along seam.Use Above method
for attching the other areas of 1/4 skin.
Let adhesive dry then smooth seam with grinder.
(Weld rear body seam as mentioned in above)
L. After removeing cleeko's and smoothing seam
with grinder,apply a coat of either
Duraglass filler or All Metal filler over seam.
smooth seam straight with sanding block
and 36 grit sand paper.
M. Finish seam with body filler then sand and
prime panel.(Inside trunk seam of 1/4 can be
smoothed over with above method then sprayed
with Paintable Rubberized Undercoating & Painted)



Tools and Materials Required
4-5 in. grinder with 24or 36 grit discs

Panel Cutter(cut-off tool or shear type)

Flat scraper or chisel

Body Hammer and Metal dolly

SpotWeld Cutter( Blair double blade or Blair
RotaBroach Cutters work best)

Cleeko panel holding pins or 1/8th in.screws
Cleeko Pliers

Flange Tool (Air operated or hand pliers)

SEM or 3M Panel Bonding Adhesive & Applicator gun
(SEM applicator gun is cheapest-Approx. $60)
(3M App. Gun is Approx. $130-$150)
Wire Feed welder for plug or stitch welding
rear body seam.
3/4 in. Tape
Pencil or Marker(Sharpie)
Sanding Block and 36 grit paper
Duraglass or All Metal filler
Body filler and Sandpaper
Paintable Rubberized Undercoating
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/03/05 05:17 PM

Gotta Love that cut and paste ehh Jeff!
Posted By: afxcoronet

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/03/05 05:32 PM

Thank you for that, I have a '66 satellite that I'll be using those procedures on, later this summer. Now if I could only find complete rear quarters for the thing.
Curtis
Posted By: chewy

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/03/05 05:39 PM

Does a bonded quarter reduce the value of your car? How well does the bond hold up over time and heat and/or accidents?
Posted By: IMGTX

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/03/05 05:45 PM

Great now you tell me....

After I bought a welder and learned to weld just so I could replace my own quarters.....

Just Kidding

Nice info.

Thanks
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/03/05 09:22 PM

JMHO

I wouldnt use bonding on old Muscle..I/E Torque in these cars have been known to buckle stuff up..lol Like Passanger side floor pans which B bodys are famous for.
But for Show cars an such, I guess it would be ok.
Posted By: 71sat440

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/03/05 10:20 PM

Quote:

Does a bonded quarter reduce the value of your car? How well does the bond hold up over time and heat and/or accidents?




Well if I believe the rep that sells the stuff to me, he says you can take two pieces and overlap them 1/4 inch with the adhesive then play tug-o-war with the metal between two frame machines and the metal will tear before the adhesive.
As far as acidents we were told never to use the stuff on frames etc as it will be strong enough to eliminate the crumple zones.
Can't answer as far as heat (or cold for that matter) or value but consider the following.

No gaps between spotwelds, a 100% seal all the way around, no place for moisture to hide between panels.

No laying down on your back trying to mig over your head.
No grinding down spot welds, which not only saves time but $ in discs.
The most heat generated is from grinding the surface to be preped, no welding near flamable stuff or worrying about catching carpets on fire etc.
Other then trying to duplicate the look of a factory spot weld, I see no advantages of welding over the adhesive unless you are good enough to butt (SP?) weld.
Just my but I havn't used the stuff since I left the bodyshop a few years ago, If anything I'm sure theirs alot of improvents since I've used it.
Posted By: dstryr

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/03/05 10:33 PM

What's the lifespan now days of adhesive? I talked to a guy in Colorado Springs a few years ago about my A12 and he said 20 years.....


I told myself 'No way am I going to use adhesive if I'll have to redo this car because the glue won't last.'
Posted By: JeffsCustomPaint

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 12:54 AM

Rich,
Sorry,I didn't understand your statement.
You were being humorous,I go it now.
thanks,Jeff
Posted By: pnypwr

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 12:59 AM

i think what he meant was cut off the old one paste on the new one! I dont think it was a personal attack on your procedures! However I too wonder about the strength of panel bond will it hold up against the torque of a big block and stick in a race car?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 01:15 AM

Naw..Nothing personal Jeff.. But yeah I dont think Id use bonding ( Glue ) on high end muscle, just personal choice.
Posted By: JeffsCustomPaint

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 01:24 AM

Ok,All you others.
The stuff is tuff as nails and ten times stronger.
I had to replace a quarter on a car that was
wrecked and it previously had one bonded on.
Lets say the metal ripped everywhere but where
the adhesive was.You can bond the metal
together and clamp it to 2 pulling posts and
it will tear the metal before the bonded area.
I know this for a fact we did it in the bodyshop
I used to work at to see.Back to the above
mentioned car I had a heck of a time getting off
the rest of the metal to bond a new one on.
You can put some plug welds on the rear at the
rear body panel joint or in door jamb,but
that is the only places you will ever need to.
They only recommend that due to they are CYAing
themselves for future lawsuits.Trust me this
stuff is very durable and is tuff.
Welding a partial quarter you will warp the
metal the length of it.Even the best welders
get warpage on sheetmetal.This method illiminates
any possibilty of that happening,resulting in
less bodywork required on the seam.
I never indorse products I don't have experience
with,and know how good they are.
I have been doing this method for about 8 years.
And yes Rich it will take Torque,remember a frame
machine has 5to 10,000 psi of pulling strength.
This product is for sheetmetal and none structure
areas.you can't bond a framerail,and you still
need to plug weld the floorpans to the framerails.
It is used for 1/4 and door skins or even metal
patch panels.It's not ment to replace all welding.

Have fun Bonding everyone,there is the procedure
now you can use it if you like.
Not like the product sells these detail instructions.

-Jeff
Posted By: max

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 02:42 AM

thanks very much for the post i have been wondering about that stuff for the last couple of years.
the part i like is when the two metals are bonded the glue actually seals the seam which you couldn't do after welding a panel very well.

i had been thinking about covering the seams on the outside of the panel with a thin coat of Duraglass and then use regular bondo for the finish work on top of the Duraglass since Duraglass is very hard to sand.

am i on the right track from keeping the bonded seam from showing up in the future?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 03:00 AM

I'll take mine welded please.

Attached picture 1756141-cuda23.JPG
Posted By: G_T

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 03:14 AM

Same here. See pic for Clecko's in action. Don't buy them from Eastwood as they charge 6X the price. Find new ones cheap on the internet.

The bonding works very well - but I wouldn't use it on an entire quarter. It's way to difficult to line and hold everything in place on such a large/complex panel. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on small patch panels and such... Of couse, now that I have a mig and can do it why bother...

Attached picture 1756167-DSCN2957.JPG
Posted By: motorheadjohn

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 03:26 AM

Quote:

Does a bonded quarter reduce the value of your car?



I like that the bonded panel is sealed better than a flange-welded joint. BUT, nothing seems worse to me that looking inside the trunk and seeing ANY type of flange joint, welded or bonded, running around the whole quarter. It's terribly obvious. For a show car, explain to me how that would look "original"?

It's more time and work, and more skill, but a butt-welded joint is the only way I will go.
Posted By: JeffsCustomPaint

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 03:39 AM

Russ,
that is fine,but look how far you grinded metal.
was there any warpage?Plus you tack welded
the whole seam and it looks like there is gaps
between your welds.Mig welding burns off the
coating between the two metals,and that is
where the rust will start to form and work it's
way thru in time.It is impossible to get
anything in between the two metals to stop the
rust and protect it.Every welded patch I ever
replaced started rusting from the welded seam.

In my method the adhesive seals the two metals and provents warping from welding.
I used to do it that way but is less work bonding.
Welds take alot of time to grind down.
bonding there are no welds to grind.

G_T,
You can bond a whole 1/4 and align it.
you will need clamps and cleeko's to hold it
either way you do it.
Prefitting the panel is what makes it possible.
with cleeko's the holes are there to make sure
the panel goes back in the right place.
You have time to move the panel in place
till the adhesive dries. wasn't sure where else
to buy cleeko's.I use screw's, it will pull the panel together better sometimes.I did mention
using screws as an alternative.

To the rest who are negative about using this
method,Don't knock it till you try it.

Thanks,-Jeff
Posted By: EWJ

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 03:43 AM

Jeff-

Thank you very for documenting the proceedure for the bonding process.
Posted By: Mr440GSS

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 03:47 AM

I hear you Jeff, Panel bonding is the only way to go. If people only realized how much cleaner the job is using this stuff, not to mention corrosion issues. I use the 3m Duramix product, and I am pretty sure they recommend doing a few plug welds in your tail lamp pocket area as well as sleeving and welding your sail panel areas on a typical quarter replacement. This procedure just plain works....
Posted By: JeffsCustomPaint

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 03:58 AM

Thanks,
well the plug welding is for CYA purposes
maybe i'll edit the procedure and add that in.
They say to do that in case a vehicle hits the rear and tries to tear the panel off.
We tested the stuff,tack welding vs. bonding
The tack welds broke when pulling apart.
bonded metal ripped off at the clamp holding the
metal not the bonded seam.
BTW,the factory seam on full quarters can be bonded if you want.like I said 3M is covering
thier butts.
If you can bond the rest you can bond that too.
No one has to use this.I was requested by many other members to post the procedure and thats what I did.
Yes it is alot easier once you have done it.
Posted By: motorheadjohn

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 04:06 AM

Didn't mean to possibly sound ungrateful...I appreciate all the technical knowledge on the board and the testing you have done on this type of technique. But for that question above about value...seems to me, if you want it to look original in order to retain value, a flange joint does not seem like the right choice. On a race car or "lower value" car, it could be acceptible.
Posted By: azblackhemi

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 04:17 AM

According to both my SEM and 3M reps the reason for welding the rear areas around the tailights on a bonded quarter panel repair is because the shear strength is not as good as the lap strength but bonding is definatly the way to go. Just follow the manufacturers directions. Even city transit bus body panels are bonded now.
Posted By: JeffsCustomPaint

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 04:18 AM

John,
when you do a butt joint you have to gring down the welds on the inside and do bodywork to hide it.Read the final part on Partial quarters.
you can grind the inside and smooth it with filler then spray with Paintable Rubberized Undercoating
then just paint as usual.Mopar but heavy
undercoat on the inside of the trunk area on
most cars.
Once you replace any quarter it's not original
butt welded,plug welded,tack welded,or bonded.
any good bodyman can tell if a panel has been
replaced no matter how good of a repair you do.
It may be consealed under the moldings and such
but the proof is there.


AZblackhemi,
I edited the procedure and added the welding of the rear seam.Was trying to stay away from that cause not everyone has a welder and the stuff
required to bond panels is less expensive than a welder.but I put it in cause you all were pointing it out.I know that,i was tought it.
I was trying to eliminate them needing to get a welder for a few welds.

thanks -Jeff
Posted By: motorheadjohn

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 04:53 AM

Maybe, maybe not. I have watched Ron Covell hammer a butt-weld joint smooth and finish it off, no grinding whatsoever, and half of that bead was TIG welded while the other half was gas welded. I have the sample piece in my garage to prove it.

Am I an expert at doing this? No way. Ron is an incredible artist on metal, but I understand the process and am working on being better with it. Wouldn't it be easier for me to bond panels? YES, but I keep working at being a better metal worker. My biggest concern with a butt-weld is pinholes or small cracks and letting moisture under the finish, so what do I do? Practice practice practice.

My best friend from high school has quit his full-time job to deal cars full time, been doing it over a year now and I would say it's a success. I go to a few shows with him each year and we look at lots of cars for sale when we go. Looking at investment type cars, the thing I look at first is the quality of the bodywork. He has looked at lots of cars that I immediately pass on because of a big nasty and clearly cheaply done flange joint or lap joints on the patch panels, and some not even undercoated when finished??? I don't know what those guys are thinking, but man they are proud of that trunk with the lid open for all to see.

You're obviously way ahead of me in this area, and will surely make me look the fool easily. I'm just saying I think there are some advantages of each method and the type of car would influence my choice. Avoiding a flange or lap would be a priority for me on any valuable or collectible car.
Posted By: JeffsCustomPaint

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 05:26 AM

John,
Most hobbiest people can't weld a butt joint or weld that good period.
If they try to weld a partial quarter they may
muck it up.Anybody can learn to bond.
If they want they can smooth and hide the seam inside trunk.
It is up to them how well they want to do the repair.
That is why I like full quarters.
no seam to fill and hide.But there arn't full
1/4's for alot of cars,to difficult to make tooling I guess.
-Jeff
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 05:30 AM

Having used panel adhesive myself and restoring a couple of cars that had panels bonded by previous bodyshops,I have some experience that I can relate to.
1.The glue is only as good as the guy applying it.If the metal is properly prepped and cleaned,it adheres well,but I have personally seen the stuff let go,probably from sloppy workmanship,which seems to be common with guys who like to cut corners and cheap out.You definitely do not want this stuff coming apart after the car is painted -then what ? How do you correct the problem.You cannot weld it now with all the glue in between !
2.I agree that it works well around wheel lips and the lower 1/4 ,as well as door skin bonding-it does seal things nicely to prevent corrosion-BUT-I would never bond the upper "splice" portion or in the center of a panel.YOU ARE ASKING FOR TROUBLE ! That joint will show up as a ghost line in the paint and will haunt you forever ! Then what?How do you fix that now ?
3.What do you do about the screw or rivit holes after the glue is hard ?Most guys remove them and fill it in with a dab of the glue BUT-I personally redid the 1/4's on a B body recently for a fellow who had bonded them on.After cutting thru the upper glued overlap to PROPERLY BUTT WELD the joint,there was rust at every screw hole because the screws pull the panels together so tight that all the glue is forced out ,leaving a totally bare unbonded section about the size of a dime.NOT GOOD
A friend bonded lower door skins etc on a pickup and after less than 2 years the overlapped Splices were all cracking and or ghosting.
Why on earth would you want to overlap two metal panels,and then cover the step with a pile of body filler ?This is a cheapo method .
Panel adhesive has it's merits,but let's not go encouraging any novices to go mess up their prized Mopars by hacking off their 1/4's and bonding on a panel only to ruin the car.
1/4 panel replacement is best left to an experienced bodyman who takes pride in workmanship and Butt welds the splice joints.Even a lap welded joint can cause ghosting problems because of the step.Come on guys DO IT RIGHT OR DON"T DO IT AT ALL !
Posted By: JeffsCustomPaint

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 05:51 AM

Oh,Now you are the Professional and your way is the only way.Well say what you want I don't go aroound putting you down so please don't come on here and start putting me down or a method I was requested in writing.Just Agree to disagree and leave it at that.Personally I hate all partial
1/4 skins.i'd rather use a used one than splice.
I usually fix whats there unless it's total junk.
Most of the cars I work on are pretty nice.
Just giving an option to those who wanted it.
I have bonded scoops on hoods with this stuff with no bad results.Like you said if its done
improper,any repair can haunt you,welding included.
I was asked to do this so i did.
Please go take your negativity to another thread
thanks.

-Jeff
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 10:47 AM

I think it boils down to this,

Old school verses New school, Glue it, weld it, That is the question. One thing is that this is good information for all, Like it or not. I commend Jeff for taking the time to point out what to do since so many asked. Just that some doesnt want to do it, and wont do it, then the guys that entertains the idea to try it ask to know somebodys got to answer, Jeff did that.
So should you weld it, Or glue it, You decide.

Peace
Rich
Posted By: JeffsCustomPaint

Re: Quarter Panel Bonding Procedure - 06/04/05 11:15 AM

Thanks Rich,
Well said. I would love to have this post locked.
tired of the negativity.
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