Moparts

TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!

Posted By: ECS

TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 03:38 AM

It has been about eight weeks since the Nationals and the completion of the Challenger project. Things went well overall but a reoccurring question kept finding its way back to me as a nagging thought. Could we have provided a better representation of a Factory Correct Vehicle? After about four weeks of thinking it over I have to say YES, we could have. With that in mind I asked myself what would constitute a “better” restoration than the one we had just completed? The only thing I could think of was to locate an absolutely pristine Survivor that still had EVERY single original part, hose, gasket, weather strip, etc…. that it did when it left the assembly line. Not only would this car have to posses those qualities but the components had to be in a condition not far off from the way they would have appeared when the car was new. In essence the selection of the car had to fit the category which meant that the “selection” of vehicle was not really much of a choice at all. A survivor in that particular condition isn't so easily found. Needless to say a vehicle was discovered that is almost as new looking (in some aspects) as the Challenger that we had brought to the Nationals. It even has the original air in all 5 tires. No joke! In 2010 (the good Lord willing) we will be bringing a BRAND SPANKING NEW 1970 BLACK A BODY PLYMOUTH to be entered in the OE competition. Not a single reproduction part, not even (hopefully) an NOS part. A car that is new with ALL the original components that it was born and manufactured with. It will be completely disassembled and touched up (where needed) in order to look like new. The party is about to start all over again. This one will definitely be fun!
Posted By: badblack68

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 04:25 AM

I have to ask, why ruin a rare survivor? They are only as assembled by the factory once.
Posted By: Alaskan_TA

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 04:35 AM

Quote:

It will be completely disassembled and touched up (where needed) in order to look like new.




So, no longer a survivor, and not restored either?

It sounds like a total waste of an original reference car to me.

You do great work, I know that. But it may be time to consult a therapist........

Best of luck.

Barry
Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 04:54 AM

That's kind of "stacking the deck" IMO. Sounds more like detailing than a restoration, no research and how could anyone challenge correctness? I agree with AK T/A. So which came first the car or the idea? I thought you were always up to the challenge, this is too easy. I have an A-body '69 M-Code 440 Dart that I'll let you "restore", enter in the judging and I'll let you keep the trophy as the trade for the work, now there's a challenge Come on Dave cleaning up a survivor is way to easy for your talents, do my M-code Dart or how about a rare color Y4 Gold 69-1/2 A12 coupe road runner,


MikeR
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 05:27 AM

Quote:

how could anyone challenge correctness?




Awww....does this take all the fun out of nitpicking reproduction carpet and package trays for some of you guys? Is that the real problem here? A new car! Just like it was delivered when new.
No challenge!? No research!? You obviously don't know me too well. When all is said in done, there will be more documentation and new A Body products available than ever before. One last note....you guys mention the cars that you own and what you are going to do or not going to do with them. Has it ever occurred to you that I have NEVER criticized the work you do or what you decide to do with what you own? I didn't realize that a situation that has no affect on some of you seems to be such a bother. Why don't some of you guys "unofficially" adopt me so when you tell me what I can or cannot do with MY vehicles it will seem a little more parental and acceptable!?! Quit being so self centered and appreciate the good things that might come from this and what could be beneficial to others. If you have a survivor and decide to leave it as is, that is your business. I certainly am not so high and mighty that I find it necessary to tell everyone what they should or should not do to what they own. The hobby benefits and it doesn't cost any of you a second of your time or a penny out of your pocket. Give it a break!
Posted By: Desoto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 06:13 AM

Quote:

<snip> In 2010 (the good Lord willing) we will be bringing a BRAND SPANKING NEW 1970 BLACK A BODY PLYMOUTH to be entered in the OE competition. <snip>




A 3-on-the-tree/318/8.75 rubber mat Valiant? Now that would be cool!
Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 07:18 AM

Quote:

how could anyone challenge correctness?

Awww....does this take all the fun out of nitpicking reproduction carpet and package trays for some of you guys? Is that the real problem here?


Naawwwww, just meant the OE judges couldn't take points from it for say; having the incorrect hood hinge color for instance. Shooting fish in a barrel, pretty smart way of getting that 100 point car if it's all original eh?

When this project gets started let me be the first one to call you out on proving ALL FIVE of those tires have 100% carbon dated 1970 air in them and were never adjusted up to the pressure they rolled off the assembly line with, shoot my wife’s new tires on her Town and Country have to be checked and aired up every year. Try to lighten up a little, it’s better for your health.


MikeR
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 09:06 AM

Quote:

Naawwwww, just meant the OE judges couldn't take points from it for say; having the incorrect hood hinge color for instance. Shooting fish in a barrel, pretty smart way of getting that 100 point car if it's all original eh?






Makes sense to me.

You put back paint marks that you have picture proof were there orginally. A basket case isn't a great car to make OE. Forget the challenge part of it, the worse shape the car is the more stuff you have to interpolate. Interpolate and exact are not the same thing.

Problem is finding a boarderline survivor/non-survivor car to do it too.

A good example of a car to do it to was a car like Troy's T/A. 40K mile car, orginal paint, original suspension, original interior, California car, no rust, one owner, tons of paperwork. But had the motor rebuilt and engine compartment spray canned black. There aren't that many paint daubs/markings and such on a motor, so that's not a super big OE deal. But once a motor has been rebuilt and repainted, it's killed as a survivor. If that T/A just had black interior I bet most of it would have been perfect to just re-use.

Or find a survivor type car with just one repaint.

There was a burnt orange 70 Hemi Cuda column shift car that sold last year out here on ebay. Like 70K to 90K miles. Original suspension. One repaint, black interior, uncracked dash?... But I think it had a non numbers motor, so that would eliminate it.

The cars are out there.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 11:18 AM

"You do great work, I know that. But it may be time to consult a therapist........ "
WoW....Glad I didn't say that

I think it's an interesting idea....
I think the only challenge would be removing the rust from suspension componets and area of the painted surface (ie: trunk area) that didn't get enough paint from the factory and now has rust.

Will the car require any painting?

How will you address factory sloppiness, or errors? Will they be corrected?

Will you clean and reuse the original spark plugs, points, plug wires etc.... How well will it run?

By saying 70 Plymouth A Body and NOT saying Duster, are you saying it's a Scamp or Valiant? How may doors does it have?

Wasn't this done before to an orange 70 Charger R/T? I remember reading something in a magazine awhile back.

MY OPINION:
It's unfortunate that after two years of reseach and labour, from the topside, thecar will look the same as it does today.
Maybe it's just me, but I prefer seeing a basket case being brought back to life....

Good luck with your new choosen endevours
Posted By: AdamR

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 11:35 AM

Im just glad its an A body.
Posted By: fig426

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 12:09 PM

I think Dave is trying to accomplish more with this one other than a perfect car. I believe that upon completion of this car, he will be able to show the minimal time, and minimal investment it is going to take to achieve a beautiful ride! With this, I would guess that it may open peoples eyes to the fact that a perfect car just doesn't have to be a hemi cuda, daytona, or droptop. How about a standard everyday grocery getter that sits in everyone's back yard that everyone of us pass by. Those cars are cheap and easy to find parts for and everyone with a little common sense and some spare change can get one going, therefore bringing that many more people into the hobby. Correct me if I'm wrong Dave.
Posted By: AdamR

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 12:17 PM

Quote:


By saying 70 Plymouth A Body and NOT saying Duster, are you saying it's a Scamp or Valiant? How may doors does it have?





Duster and Valiant 4dr only for 70 Plymouths. Scamps came out in 71.
Posted By: Blues_Cuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 12:25 PM

I'm thinking it will be a Valiant judging by the trunk picture on another posting.

Dave -- Do you think this 'new' thread will draw more conversation/criticism than the original 'Taking it to the next level' thread? I bet it will.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 12:54 PM

Dave
This is a pretty BOLD statement that may come back to haunt you...

Quote:

"Not a single reproduction part, not even (hopefully) an NOS part. A car that is new with ALL the original components that it was born and manufactured with. It will be completely disassembled and touched up (where needed) in order to look like new




I don't want to nic-pick (too late ) but if this car is truely a reference point for new future products then how will NO REPRODUCTION parts find there way into the project....I'm confused

Lets say while dismantling the car you find an odd paper tag attached somewhere practically un-seen.....you remove it and although it's 38 years old, dried up, krinkled, faded, and weathered, it's a PRIME example from which you can make a EXACT perfect copy of (it's what you do, right?)...

So which one finds it's way back onto the car?
The 38 year old ORIGINAL one?
or
Your nice NEW LOOKING perfect REPRODUCTION one?

The answer is obvious to me, but it contridicts your opening statement....

Don't get me wrong...I'm behind you on this 100%, I think it will be a terrific learning experence for all of us...
Posted By: 340wedge

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 01:01 PM

I'm glad it's an A body , I'm hoping it's a Duster. We need a reference car because there are no resto books, etc. for A body cars. There are a few survivors out there, but not enough.
Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 01:04 PM

Quote:

You do great work, I know that. But it may be time to consult a therapist........ :twocents



Barry, I believe you to be one of the good guys in this hobby, and that's why I must say that your comments were uncalled for and quite frankly beneath you. Please consider deleting them.
Posted By: quick77rt

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 01:05 PM

Yep....its time for you to lay down and rest and talk to the Dr. A $10 script might save you alot of $$$$$$$ down the road.

However if this is a related post, today is a new day


I think he was just being funny....relax a bit.

Its his idea, his project, his $$$$,.... go for it.


But now...this is a bit extreme..."It even has the original air in all 5 tires."

Can we get some of that org air for testing
Posted By: sixbbl69

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 01:08 PM

Quote:

I think Dave is trying to accomplish more with this one other than a perfect car. I believe that upon completion of this car, he will be able to show the minimal time, and minimal investment it is going to take to achieve a beautiful ride! With this, I would guess that it may open peoples eyes to the fact that a perfect car just doesn't have to be a hemi cuda, daytona, or droptop. How about a standard everyday grocery getter that sits in everyone's back yard that everyone of us pass by. Those cars are cheap and easy to find parts for and everyone with a little common sense and some spare change can get one going, therefore bringing that many more people into the hobby. Correct me if I'm wrong Dave. [/quot anybody can go out and buy a car like that.you can go to any museum and see cars like that. i would say stick with selling parts and leave the cars alone.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 01:56 PM

Quote:


When this project gets started let me be the first one to call you out on proving ALL FIVE of those tires have 100% carbon dated 1970 air in them .......
Try to lighten up a little, it’s better for your health.

MikeR




I have nothing to prove or answer to you about concerning my project. As a matter of fact why don’t you prove it is not the factory air since that statement seems to bother you so much.

You might consider following your own advice. You seem to be the one who is bothered by circumstances that are none of your business.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 01:59 PM

Quote:

Dave
This is a pretty BOLD statement that may come back to haunt you...




And what do you base YOUR statement on Alan? When you looked at the car, what did you see that might cause you to make that particular comment?
Posted By: TWS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 02:50 PM

I would guess the example part is either in prestine shape like the rest of the car, or Dave will hunt down a pristine original example of the same part from another car to use. If anyone can accomplish that, it is Dave. His tenacity is pretty much ummatched in the hobby right now. I don't see this approach of no repro or NOS parts as insurmountable. Extremely challenging, certainly, but not insurmountable.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 03:00 PM

Quote:

I think Dave is trying to accomplish more with this one other than a perfect car. Correct me if I'm wrong Dave.




Hi Mr. C,
You have correctly assessed some of the rationale of doing this car. The A Body guys have been asking me (a long time) for the same attention that the B & E Body guys have received. It amazes me that people who have never seen the car, or even know what it is, have such definite OPINIONS about it. Even more comical is how one guy emailed me telling me what MY true intentions are concerning this project and not to argue with him otherwise! Maybe he can fill me in on what I think about other factors in my life. First of all the car will have to be worked on with the same mindset of the previous projects we did. The only difference will be that hundreds of hours on eBay and tens of thousands of dollars will not have to be allocated in finding parts. Some here say that is like shooting fish in a barrel?!? Since when did spending time looking for parts on eBay, Hemmings, etc…. constitute “factory documentation and research.” The CAR is the research!! I feel fortunate in not having to go through those arduous, (usually) necessary evils. As a matter of fact Chris, look at all the grief I took from these same individuals who did nothing but argue and nit pick about all the different parts that I DID have to locate after the fact. My Challenger was a complete car but the parts were in a condition that did not allow me to reuse the majority of them during the restoration. I was criticized for THAT particular scenario and now that I have found a way to keep ALL the original parts with the car, I am STILL getting chastised for! (I know the underlying basis of their criticism though.)
This car will still require a tremendous amount of time and artistic effort to end up with the desired results. ALL the bare metal will have to be reconditioned to look like new. The engine will have to be pulled and repainted to look like new again. The transmission will have to be detailed to look like new. The engine bay, K Frame, Rear End Housing, Power Steering Unit, Trunk, etc…. will have to be repainted to look like new again. The reoccurring theme here is “like new again.” I personally do not like the looks of a 40 year old survivor vehicle. While they are very nice, they do not look NEW. I enjoy making them look like factory fresh without the final result looking deliberate or “home made.”
For those who can’t understand how this helps the reproduction market, it is quite simple. As I go about disassembling AND DOCUMENTING EVERY SINGLE SCREW AND THE DIRECTION THEY WERE FACING WHEN REMOVED, I will have perfect examples of parts to format the new reproductions from. That is the beauty of this ordeal. Having pristine samples to make new products from. Isn’t that always a big complaint in the reproduction market? The parts just don’t look or fit just right! Nowhere did I ever say that these reproduction products will end up on this car. The original parts are nice enough for me to rework and restore them to look like new. I personally think it is beneficial NOT to have to spend endless hours replacing and having to find NOS parts. (Not to mention the economics of the project.) I think I have already put enough time and effort in that particular area with the last two cars. The first car was an incorrectly restored vehicle that we re-did and the critics said, “big deal…you took the characteristics from other original cars and put them back on yours”. The next car was a completely original car that needed many parts to be replaced with NOS parts. The critics came back with, “yeah but you didn’t put the correct NOS parts on the car that you should have”. Now I have a survivor and they have done a 180 from the FIRST scenario and are griping about this! Do you get the feeling it is not about what is being done with the cars but something that goes a little deeper with these people? For those that don’t appreciate or approve of the direction of this project….tough! Take care of yourselves and enjoy your life (and cars) the way you see fit.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 03:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think Dave is trying to accomplish more with this one other than a perfect car. Correct me if I'm wrong Dave.




Hi Mr. C,
You have correctly assessed some of the rationale of doing this car. The A Body guys have been asking me (a long time) for the same attention that the B & E Body guys have received. It amazes me that people who have never seen the car, or even know what it is, have such definite OPINIONS about it. Even more comical is how one guy emailed me telling me what MY true intentions are concerning this project and not to argue with him otherwise! Maybe he can fill me in on what I think about other factors in my life. First of all the car will have to be worked on with the same mindset of the previous projects we did. The only difference will be that hundreds of hours on eBay and tens of thousands of dollars will not have to be allocated in finding parts. Some here say that is like shooting fish in a barrel?!? Since when did spending time looking for parts on eBay, Hemmings, etc…. constitute “factory documentation and research.” The CAR is the research!! I feel fortunate in not having to go through those arduous, (usually) necessary evils. As a matter of fact Chris, look at all the grief I took from these same individuals who did nothing but argue and nit pick about all the different parts that I DID have to locate after the fact. My Challenger was a complete car but the parts were in a condition that did not allow me to reuse the majority of them during the restoration. I was criticized for THAT particular scenario and now that I have found a way to keep ALL the original parts with the car, I am STILL getting chastised for! (I know the underlying basis of their criticism though.)
This car will still require a tremendous amount of time and artistic effort to end up with the desired results. ALL the bare metal will have to be reconditioned to look like new. The engine will have to be pulled and repainted to look like new again. The transmission will have to be detailed to look like new. The engine bay, K Frame, Rear End Housing, Power Steering Unit, Trunk, etc…. will have to be repainted to look like new again. The reoccurring theme here is “like new again.” I personally do not like the looks of a 40 year old survivor vehicle. While they are very nice, they do not look NEW. I enjoy making them look like factory fresh without the final result looking deliberate or “home made.”
For those who can’t understand how this helps the reproduction market, it is quite simple. As I go about disassembling AND DOCUMENTING EVERY SINGLE SCREW AND THE DIRECTION THEY WERE FACING WHEN REMOVED, I will have perfect examples of parts to format the new reproductions from. That is the beauty of this ordeal. Having pristine samples to make new products from. Isn’t that always a big complaint in the reproduction market? The parts just don’t look or fit just right! Nowhere did I ever say that these reproduction products will end up on this car. The original parts are nice enough for me to rework and restore them to look like new. I personally think it is beneficial NOT to have to spend endless hours replacing and having to find NOS parts. (Not to mention the economics of the project.) I think I have already put enough time and effort in that particular area with the last two cars. The first car was an incorrectly restored vehicle that we re-did and the critics said, “big deal…you took the characteristics from other original cars and put them back on yours”. The next car was a completely original car that needed many parts to be replace with NOS parts. The critics came back with, “yeah but you didn’t put the correct NOS parts on the car that you should have”. Now I have a survivor and they have done a 180 from the FIRST scenario and are griping about this! Do you get the feeling it is not about what is being done with the cars but something that goes a little deeper with these people? For those that don’t appreciate or approve of the direction of this project….tough! Take care of yourselves and enjoy your life (and cars) the way you see fit.




I agree. I don't understand some of the replys. It's not a big deal for controversy. Just starting with a great condition car. I'm sure it's not the last car on the earth that in its current condition. He might not be the first person to start with a car in this condition. It's what he ends up with and how he gets there that is interesting and of note.

He's obviously going to take tons of reference pictures and notes. And when you unpeal the onion, you will see things you couldn't when it was together.

Dave please feel feel to use paragraphs. They are helpful.
Posted By: dannysbee

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 03:41 PM

Wow are we having fun yet? I thought hobbies were supposed to be fun. You guy's have fun I'm headed back to the race forum.

But before I go I am going to give the point of view of someone on the outside looking in. I am nobody and I know nothing but I am going to say what I think here as I believe there are consequences to the bickering and arrogance I see in some of these posts. I think some of the people posting need to take a step back and consider what a new board member is going to think about all this. You want to turn new blood off to the hobby, I can't think of a better way to do it than the majority of commits made in this thread.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 03:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Dave
This is a pretty BOLD statement that may come back to haunt you...




And what do you base YOUR statement on Alan? When you looked at the car, what did you see that might cause you to make that particular comment?




In your opening post you stated your intentions were to have NO REPRODUCTION parts, that's what I was referring to as a "bold statement".

Do you think it can be done? Even with small items such as wire harness labels, paper tags etc???

How about a battery? Does it retain it's original 38 year old battery? If it does your very lucky to find a true time capsule , and quite possibly the best survivor ever.
Posted By: Iceman01

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 04:01 PM

Quote:

Wow are we having fun yet? I thought hobbies were supposed to be fun. You guy's have fun I'm headed back to the race forum.

But before I go I am going to give the point of view of someone on the outside looking in. I am nobody and I know nothing but I am going to say what I think here as I believe there are consequences to the bickering and arrogance I see in some of these posts. I think some of the people posting need to take a step back and consider what a new board member is going to think about all this. You want to turn new blood off to the hobby, I can't think of a better way to do it than the majority of commits made in this thread.




Amen brother!

Go for it Dave. You are not diminishing my life one little bit by your efforts. My male ego is still intact. In fact, you are doing a great service to the hobby and you know it. I feel sorry for the petty keyboard kings who are unable to appreciate that.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 04:05 PM

Quote:

Do you think it can be done? Even with small items such as wire harness labels, paper tags etc???

How about a battery? Does it retain it's original 38 year old battery?





You have obviously seen the car Alan, what do you think?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 04:07 PM

Thanks to both you and Iceman for your input!
Posted By: Troy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 04:10 PM

This could be a fun project and to be honest with you probably one of the best ones to watch for a couple of reasons.

Reason #1) Me personally I do not believe that if a part is NOS, that does not ALWAYS make it correct.

Reason #2) There are very few repop parts that are perfect....very few. With repop parts out of the question and NOS parts out the window that only leaves original parts to be used......parts that need to have the correct date codes and sometimes from the same assembly plant as the car your working on. We all know that could be fun!!

Reason #3) I'm not even going to get into the "assembly line parts" verses NOS parts debate,,,,,no thank you!!

I was very lucky when I did my T/A. 85% of the parts on that car was reusable. I have my stash of NOS parts and when you put them next to some of the original parts, there were no comparison. Me personality, the parts that are on the car....if original....trump and parts book or any NOS part out there.

This is just my opinion and my opinion only!!
Posted By: quick77rt

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 05:34 PM

Ive read this a and am a bit unclear....if no new parts, no nos parts....isnt that just cleaning up a rare find.

If the org car is just like new to start with, other then cleaning what would it need.

I know of a 320 mile 77 F-body...and it might still have the org battery in it...plastic on the seats, ect..so why rip it apart when its all org???

Clearly its a very different concept, and I think the varied comments might simply reflect the lack of understanding the why and such.

Obviously after the awsome challenger project, it might take some out of the box thinking to top it??
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 06:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Do you think it can be done? Even with small items such as wire harness labels, paper tags etc???

How about a battery? Does it retain it's original 38 year old battery?





You have obviously seen the car Alan, what do you think?




Well I think it will require some reproduction parts. I don't feel in can be avoided in some areas. I don't remember seeing the car, has it been in a magazine or something? EBay?
Posted By: a12superbee

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 06:27 PM

I look forward to reading the thread and seeing the pictures.
Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 06:27 PM

Quote:

Ive read this a and am a bit unclear....if no new parts, no nos parts....isnt that just cleaning up a rare find.

If the org car is just like new to start with, other then cleaning what would it need.

I know of a 320 mile 77 F-body...and it might still have the org battery in it...plastic on the seats, ect..so why rip it apart when its all org???

Clearly its a very different concept, and I think the varied comments might simply reflect the lack of understanding the why and such.

Obviously after the awsome challenger project, it might take some out of the box thinking to top it??




O.E. Gold, with this approach you could never be called out for having the incorrect replacement, reproduction or NOS part on the car being judged, pretty clever eh?

So if you know of a time capsule car that is in absolutely perfect condition with every original part untouched on the car and you clean the windows and put some wax on it you apparently have “restored” it, can enter it in the judging and should have a top point car. No questions about grease zerks, trunk mats, carpet foot pads, etc., because they are all original to the car. I have to give Dave credit for coming up with this approach, very, very clever.
Posted By: TWS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 06:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ive read this a and am a bit unclear....if no new parts, no nos parts....isnt that just cleaning up a rare find.

If the org car is just like new to start with, other then cleaning what would it need.

I know of a 320 mile 77 F-body...and it might still have the org battery in it...plastic on the seats, ect..so why rip it apart when its all org???

Clearly its a very different concept, and I think the varied comments might simply reflect the lack of understanding the why and such.

Obviously after the awsome challenger project, it might take some out of the box thinking to top it??




O.E. Gold, with this approach you could never be called out for having the incorrect replacement, reproduction or NOS part on the car being judged, pretty clever eh?

So if you know of a time capsule car that is in absolutely perfect condition with every original part untouched on the car and you clean the windows and put some wax on it you apparently have “restored” it, can enter it in the judging and should have a top point car. No questions about grease zerks, trunk mats, carpet foot pads, etc., because they are all original to the car. I have to give Dave credit for coming up with this approach, very, very clever.




This is only part of the OE Gold scoring. OE cars are judged on condition as well. The lion's share of his effort (and I believe the whole point in doing this) will be in bringing the entire original car back to "new." I doubt he would be doing this if he didn't think it was enough of a challenge. Otherwise, there would be no point.
Posted By: quick77rt

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 07:16 PM

Sounds like a cool deal then......and trend-setters rock

So when do we get some pics of the starting project?

Or at least... make and mod?????? feed the fish
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 07:39 PM

Quote:

Ive read this a and am a bit unclear....if no new parts, no nos parts....isnt that just cleaning up a rare find.

If the org car is just like new to start with, other then cleaning what would it need.





With all due respect, you have not been reading the specifics and magnitude of the project. It will not consist of just a wipe here and a wipe there. The entire car will be disassembled. Every component will be repainted to look NEW again! While this car looks very very nice, it does not have the same appearance of a NEW car. The interior is pristine. Would some of you guys feel better is we ripped it apart so we could find NOS material to fix it and make it look new again? What we will be doing (with a team of guys) will be taking each ORIGINAL part and making it look exactly like it did when it was new from the factory. Tons of documentation! Tons of research! This might mean an extra coat of paint over the original paint but the "mistakes" and ugly seam sealer will still be evident and visible. It will be finished with the same characteristics that we document and uncover. THE CAR LOOKS LIKE A SURVIVOR. WE WANT IT TO LOOK BRAND NEW AGAIN.

What is it about searching for NOS parts that has suddenly become the mandate for restoring a car? Who made up that new rule? The magnitude of work will STILL be exactly the same EXCEPT WITH THE ORIGINAL PARTS AND PIECES. Are you going to tell me that it is now frowned upon to use (and refinish) the original ball joints, compared to finding, buying and STILL having to refinish NOS ball joints? Please help me understand this new flip flop attitude. Are we going to discredit someone who uses the original parts rather than using NOS parts?!?

You get criticized when NOS parts are used. You get criticized if the original parts are used! You get criticized when reproduction parts are used! Could someone please explain what other options one could use that would be "blessed" by all of the "well wishers" and experts posting on this thread?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 08:51 PM

Quote:

you clean the windows and put some wax on it you apparently have “restored” it




man I hope not. i have restored my car at least 10 times in the past year under that definition.
Posted By: Troy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 09:10 PM

"You get criticized when NOS parts are used. You get criticized if the original parts are used! You get criticized when reproduction parts are used! Could someone please explain what other options one could use that would be "blessed" by all of the "well wishers" and experts posting on this thread?"

Dave, (by the way I hope all is well) Who are you restoring the car for??? For yourself?....The people in the hobby? Or for the people that just want to sture the pot?? This might be a question that you need to answer.

I restore cars for the challenge, to push myself and my abilities. I also try to show other people "MY" interpretation of what "I" think these cars look like when they were new.

Just my

Attached picture 4754901-TADisassembly#3014(Medium).jpg
Posted By: rayztoy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 09:29 PM

NOS, NORS, Repro, or Original reconditioned, does it really matter? DAVE, you do IMPECCABLE work, IMHO. Thanks for being an asset to the hobby, sharing your pictures, your knowledge, and reproducing what we need correctly. We are TRULY BLESSED to have you. THANKS!!!
Posted By: quick77rt

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 10:00 PM

Thanks for explaing that, but like others said whatever you do will be nice.

Didnt one just do a modified version of your idea to a t/a car a while back...took it all the way down just to clean and freshen. It was semi popular???? Maybe a trip black car.



Quote:

Quote:

Ive read this a and am a bit unclear....if no new parts, no nos parts....isnt that just cleaning up a rare find.

If the org car is just like new to start with, other then cleaning what would it need.





With all due respect, you have not been reading the specifics and magnitude of the project. It will not consist of just a wipe here and a wipe there. The entire car will be disassembled. Every component will be repainted to look NEW again! While this car looks very very nice, it does not have the same appearance of a NEW car. The interior is pristine. Would some of you guys feel better is we ripped it apart so we could find NOS material to fix it and make it look new again? What we will be doing (with a team of guys) will be taking each ORIGINAL part and making it look exactly like it did when it was new from the factory. Tons of documentation! Tons of research! This might mean an extra coat of paint over the original paint but the "mistakes" and ugly seam sealer will still be evident and visible. It will be finished with the same characteristics that we document and uncover. THE CAR LOOKS LIKE A SURVIVOR. WE WANT IT TO LOOK BRAND NEW AGAIN.

What is it about searching for NOS parts that has suddenly become the mandate for restoring a car? Who made up that new rule? The magnitude of work will STILL be exactly the same EXCEPT WITH THE ORIGINAL PARTS AND PIECES. Are you going to tell me that it is now frowned upon to use (and refinish) the original ball joints, compared to finding, buying and STILL having to refinish NOS ball joints? Please help me understand this new flip flop attitude. Are we going to discredit someone who uses the original parts rather than using NOS parts?!?

You get criticized when NOS parts are used. You get criticized if the original parts are used! You get criticized when reproduction parts are used! Could someone please explain what other options one could use that would be "blessed" by all of the "well wishers" and experts posting on this thread?


Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 11:18 PM

Quote:

Dave, (by the way I hope all is well) Who are you restoring the car for??? For yourself?....The people in the hobby? Or for the people that just want to sture the pot?? This might be a question that you need to answer.




Hello Troy! Always good to hear from you. The question was really rhetorical in nature. When you do things like this, the motivation has to burn from within.
Again I wanted to make clear that this will not be a casual clean and wax job. It will actually be MORE involved than the last two cars. I will be documenting aspects that were never even considered with the other cars. For instance, when I remove the tie rods from their sleeves I will count the threads that are protruding from the lock nuts that hold the clamp in place. Why? For a couple of reasons. Number one, I will put them back exactly the way they came off. Same amount of threads showing after the nut. The clocked position of the nuts will also be duplicated when reassembled. Second, it will be interesting to see if the torque specs are in line with how tight the factory originally tightened them. I realize that specifications change once a part has been stressed but it will still be interesting to see how close they were to the published specification. A lot of people talk about how these cars were built in a haphazard fashion, so it will be educational to witness the outcome of some of the findings. I have many other areas that I hope to find facts on regarding how these cars were actually built. I wonder how many other people check torque specs on their cars when they wash, wax and clean the windows?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 11:21 PM

Hello Ray,
You will never know how encouraging those words are to me. Thank YOU for everything!!

Sincerely,
Dave W.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 11:25 PM

Quote:

They are only as assembled by the factory once.




We can hopefully change that line of thinking!
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 11:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Dave, (by the way I hope all is well) Who are you restoring the car for??? For yourself?....The people in the hobby? Or for the people that just want to sture the pot?? This might be a question that you need to answer.




Hello Troy! Always good to hear from you. The question was really rhetorical in nature. When you do things like this, the motivation has to burn from within.
Again I wanted to make clear that this will not be a casual clean and wax job. It will actually be MORE involved than the last two cars. I will be documenting aspects that were never even considered with the other cars. For instance, when I remove the tie rods from their sleeves I will count the threads that are protruding from the lock nuts that hold the clamp in place. Why? For a couple of reasons. Number one, I will put them back exactly the way they came off. Same amount of threads showing after the nut. The clocked position of the nuts will also be duplicated when reassembled. Second, it will be interesting to see if the torque specs are in line with how tight the factory originally tightened them. I realize that specifications change once a part has been stressed but it will still be interesting to see how close they were to the published specification. A lot of people talk about how these cars were built in a haphazard fashion, so it will be educational to witness the outcome of some of the findings. I have many other areas that I hope to find facts on regarding how these cars were actually built. I wonder how many other people check torque specs on their cars when they wash, wax and clean the windows?




How are you going to differentiate from "breakaway torque" (what I assume you are measuring when you remove a fastener) and "installed torque" (which is what the factory tightened the fastener too)????
They are most certainly two different values!

Or are you measureing the torque required to return the nut/bolt to its clocked position and recording that value as installed torque? In the case of gaskets, that most certainly would change.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/16/08 11:40 PM

Quote:

How are you going to differentiate from "breakaway torque" (what I assume you are measuring when you remove a fastener) and "installed torque" (which is what the factory tightened the fastener too)????
They are most certainly two different values!




We will not be calculating the breakaway torque. The torque will be calculated after the parts are void of ALL oxidation and then reassembled. The thread count and nut configuration will be compared to the "before" documentation. That is why I mentioned the pre-stress condition that occurs on parts when they are originally assembled.
Posted By: Slim Smitty

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 05:15 AM

Let the party begin. I'll be following this one all the way.

I loved the last project and look forward to all the details of this one.
I also like the bickering this one's all ready stirring up. I get a kick out of it. Kinda like watching a reality tv show.

The fender tag and vin tag topics on this site are a hoot too!
Posted By: badblack68

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 02:02 PM

Dave, I enjoyed going the "e-body" school with the Challenger. Now that you have explained your intentions with this survivor a-body, I look forward to following along and attending a-body school. Your level of quality workmanship and your intense level of attention to detail is by far the best on the planet. What is the projected time frame to get project a-body from start to completion?
Posted By: Kirby

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 03:06 PM

Dave- your work, effort and enthusiasm is incredible! A true asset to our hobby. We need some before pics- come on man quit teasing us! I think the "critics" should start posting pics of the cars THEY have "restored". What credentials do they possess that makes them capable enough to nit pick your efforts? Someone can SAY they have been restoring these cars for 25 years- but thats them SAYING it. Lets see some of their endeavors, let others see/judge THEIR work, and we'll be the judge of their work/expertise. Release the hounds!
Posted By: Iceman01

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 03:57 PM

Quote:

Dave- your work, effort and enthusiasm is incredible! A true asset to our hobby. We need some before pics- come on man quit teasing us! I think the "critics" should start posting pics of the cars THEY have "restored". What credentials do they possess that makes them capable enough to nit pick your efforts? Someone can SAY they have been restoring these cars for 25 years- but thats them SAYING it. Lets see some of their endeavors, let others see/judge THEIR work, and we'll be the judge of their work/expertise. Release the hounds!




Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 07:08 PM

Thanks (to the last 3 individuals who posted) so much for the encouragement concerning this project. I will be documenting and providing a step by step analysis for anyone who is interested about the steps that will be taking throughout the entire process. We will be documenting the mil thickness of paint on every square foot of each body panel. It will be interesting to see the variance of paint that was applied during the factory painting procedures.

The first thing we will do will be to get the car on a lift and have every inch documented with digital pictures. Jon (who does our graphics) will position a camera under the car, while it is suspended and take pictures spaced six inches apart. It will take over 100 pictures that will then be put together in photo shop to provide a seamless view of the complete underside of the vehicle. We will also take separate close up photos of all the various components under the car. A narrated video documenting the same details will also be used to reference the original components. That should accurately cover every detail/part that will need to be reinstalled when finished at a later date. Take a look at the underside of the Challenger that Jon put together in photo shop. It was done with about 50 pictures that was fused together using computer programs. To complete this photo the camera was spaced about 12 inches apart.

Using a six inch picture format for the A Body project should provide a much better view of documentation for the components.

Posted By: 65pacecar

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 07:56 PM

Quote:

Thanks (to the last 3 individuals who posted) so much for the encouragement concerning this project. I will be documenting and providing a step by step analysis for anyone who is interested about the steps that will be taking throughout the entire process. We will be documenting the mil thickness of paint on every square foot of each body panel. It will be interesting to see the variance of paint that was applied during the factory painting procedures.

The first thing we will do will be to get the car on a lift and have every inch documented with digital pictures. Jon (who does our graphics) will position a camera under the car, while it is suspended and take pictures spaced six inches apart. It will take over 100 pictures that will then be put together in photo shop to provide a seamless view of the complete underside of the vehicle. We will also take separate close up photos of all the various components under the car. A narrated video documenting the same details will also be used to reference the original components. That should accurately cover every detail/part that will need to be reinstalled when finished at a later date. Take a look at the underside of the Challenger that Jon put together in photo shop. It was done with about 50 pictures that was fused together using computer programs. To complete this photo the camera was spaced about 12 inches apart.

Using a six inch picture format for the A Body project should provide a much better view of documentation for the components.






Dave,

This sounds like an excellent project and will serve as a guide for not only future restorations and new product development but also in verifying, maintaining and proper handling and care of Survivor cars. I have been planning a very similar endeavor in the future with one of my cars. I am currently finishing the restoration on a 65 Sport Fury Hardtop and will be following it with either a 340 Cuda or Demon for my wife. The project I have been planning is similar to your idea and I will be performing this task on my 65 Sport Fury Convertible Indy Pace Car. I have had this car since I was 16, bought it from the original owner, an elderly gentleman in his late 70’s (also named Shannon); that kept the car in a heated garage since new and took pristine care of it. The Sport Fury still retains its original paint (Excellent condition), Interior which is near perfect, the top still looks new, but the rear window is clouded and is one item that will be replaced, the original suspension still feels tight etc. The Plymouth was so nice, that even as a 16 Year Old I bought a 76 Volare to beat on to save my car and keep it in nice condition. The car shows minimal wear but has accumulated some dirt and grime in areas that cannot be cleaned properly without disassembly; for years I have considered a ground up restoration, but over the past year I have decided to do a project very similar to yours since I don’t want to kill its character. I plan to dismantle the car, document as I go (You have already given me some excellent ideas on the amount of detail and documentation I need to achieve), restore all of the original components as much as possible and replace (in my case at least) only the items that have to be replaced. I have restored two 65 Sport Fury’s already and am currently finishing a black hardtop that has helped develop a process that I prefer and acquire knowledge of the assembly line techniques and patterns on these cars; I have taken extensive notes along the way. I have also accumulated a number of NOS and NOS Assembly line parts for these cars since the late 80’s and even though the other Sport Fury’s were total restorations to correct specs, I have always held back the best of the best for this car in anticipation of a complete restoration. Since deciding on preserving the original fit, finish and as many of the components of the car as possible; most of the NOS parts will probably end up staying in inventory, but that is fine. I am looking forward to your documentation and revival of this car; I know it will serve my project and others well by illustrating both assembly line technique and patterns along with the craftsmanship it takes to accomplish a project such as this.

Best of luck to you and your team with this project, it will take a lot to rival the Challengers accomplishments if it’s even possible, I look forward to seeing the finished product and the updates along the way.

Shannon
Posted By: TWS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 08:39 PM

Quote:

Thanks (to the last 3 individuals who posted) so much for the encouragement concerning this project. I will be documenting and providing a step by step analysis for anyone who is interested about the steps that will be taking throughout the entire process. We will be documenting the mil thickness of paint on every square foot of each body panel. It will be interesting to see the variance of paint that was applied during the factory painting procedures.

The first thing we will do will be to get the car on a lift and have every inch documented with digital pictures. Jon (who does our graphics) will position a camera under the car, while it is suspended and take pictures spaced six inches apart. It will take over 100 pictures that will then be put together in photo shop to provide a seamless view of the complete underside of the vehicle. We will also take separate close up photos of all the various components under the car. A narrated video documenting the same details will also be used to reference the original components. That should accurately cover every detail/part that will need to be reinstalled when finished at a later date. Take a look at the underside of the Challenger that Jon put together in photo shop. It was done with about 50 pictures that was fused together using computer programs. To complete this photo the camera was spaced about 12 inches apart.

Using a six inch picture format for the A Body project should provide a much better view of documentation for the components.






Now THAT gets my vote for Mopar photo of the year. Spectacular photography and photoshopping! You could sell posters of that. If only there was a way to shoot the parts of the car above the ramps and the tire bottoms.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 09:10 PM

Thanks Tim,
We now have a way to do exactly what you suggested and WILL be doing it on this project. (I am even contemplating redoing the other cars pictures.) The car will literally look as if it is hoovering in the air.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 09:14 PM

Faxon is working on the factory assembly line manuals for a-bodies.
Will one of these manuals be used on this project.
I have put everything on hold for my Dart until I can obtain a copy.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 09:34 PM

Shannon....what can I say to such a statement?!? You have been one of the better surprises (and friends) that resulted from this years Nationals. It would be my pleasure to help with your project (as well as ANYONE else following this thread) regarding documentation or the procedures that we discover. I am an advocate of sharing all the data that might be used to help the efforts of others. This thread started out a little rocky but I sincerely hope that down deep, some of the skeptics will realize that our focus is on the progression of the hobby and its participants! This will be a long (hopefully fun) journey and if one other person can benefit from the work involved, I will consider the outcome a successful one. I do promise that the car will be better than the Challenger in all areas. Each project is a learning experience. You take the aspects previously discovered in the last restoration, bring them to the next project and improve from there!
Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 09:59 PM

Super cool pic!!
Posted By: I go fast

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 10:13 PM

Do we have to go through all your greatness again?
Posted By: Kirby

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 10:24 PM

No just don't open the thread!
Posted By: lmn6pack

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 10:27 PM

Dave,

I guess you answered my question in the last thread "taking it to the next level". The question being what have you learned from the challenger and can you "create" an even better masterpiece. Good luck with your endeavor!

Rick Janosik
Posted By: I go fast

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 11:52 PM

Quote:

Dave,

I guess you answered my question in the last thread "taking it to the next level". The question being what have you learned from the challenger and can you "create" an even better masterpiece. Good luck with your endeavor!

Rick Janosik





No,and if I did it wouldn't be 3500ls's of steel with four wheels.Also,my head is still not to big for my hat to fit.
Posted By: Captain Flapjack

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/17/08 11:52 PM

Quote:








wow! wow!
that is beautiful!!!

its so nice it doesnt look real

you have turned back the clock 30+ years

that picture blows my mind, i cant stop looking at it

if any car was ever too nice to drive, its yours

thats a view and picture that im sure has + will make an impression on many of us

thanks for sharing it

way to go!!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 12:40 AM

Quote:

my head is still not to big for my hat to fit.




Do they even make a hat designed to fit a pin?
Posted By: a12superbee

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 01:24 AM

Quote:

Do we have to go through all your greatness again?




Go find another parade to rain on, the rest of us are enjoying ourselves and aren't threatened by the fact dave's cars are nicer than ours.
Posted By: I go fast

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 02:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Do we have to go through all your greatness again?




Go find another parade to rain on, the rest of us are enjoying ourselves and aren't threatened by the fact dave's cars are nicer than ours.




Na,can't do that,love you guys too much!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 02:18 AM

Quote:

the rest of us are enjoying ourselves and aren't threatened by the fact dave's cars are nicer than ours.




While that is a very kind compliment, it is definitely not true. There are MANY cars that are “nicer” or just as nice as what we have done. I would even venture to say that every car that is refurbished or restored has attributes that make it unique or just as “nice” to its owner. I have seen custom vehicles that convey craftsmanship unequaled to any thing we have ever done. What we do is better described as “different”. Every vehicle plays a significant role in the Car World that we all enjoy.

PS....I hope that the "well wishers" (or sometimes called nay sayers) continue to stick around. All joking aside, sometimes they really DO make comments that prompt constructive input or ideas!
Posted By: Dave Watt

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 02:22 AM

The Challenger is incredible and I appreciate the fact you are willing to share the detailed photos and information with us.
Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 11:40 AM

Oh just great Dave, now I guess you won't be selling the 1:12 scale model of the Challenger sitting on your desk that the underside picture is of right? And the fact that you photo shopped in the ultra rare blue left handed lick knob into the photo that you couldn't find for the real car is a dead giveaway the photo is a fake.

Just kidding Mustafa. Having the opportunity to personally stand under that car I can tell you the photo doesn't give the car justice. Without seeing it for yourself, in person, you can't appreciate what it really is.

Don't get all jammed up about any of the negative comments being made about your Challenger. On second thought, maybe you should let it jack you up so the hobby can witness an even more over the top restoration.

BTW Dave, I have an original assembly line blue left handed lick knob that I might be willing to trade you for the rare 70' 440 HEMI abody your doing next.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 01:58 PM

WOW !!! Excellent Dave.One question,it appears the six way seat floor braces are painted black.Not questioning it,just want to make sure I'm seeing it correctly so I can paint mine.Thanks!!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 04:54 PM

Hello Jim,
You are correct, they are painted black. I have seen variations of gloss between different original samples. We ended up doing these in a semi-gloss (a tad more towards a glossy look) finish. If you have access to any original cars try and check out how they are painted. Thanks!
Posted By: 65pacecar

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 05:07 PM

Quote:


Having the opportunity to personally stand under that car I can tell you the photo doesn't give the car justice. Without seeing it for yourself, in person, you can't appreciate what it really is.






That is the truth, photos cannot capture the incredible detail and craftmanship of the Challenger. I literally spent a couple of hours on and off during the day around this car Saturday at the Nats, taking a ton of pictures and everytime you look at it you find new details and items that you missed the first 10 times.
Posted By: 65pacecar

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 05:30 PM

Quote:

Shannon....what can I say to such a statement?!? You have been one of the better surprises (and friends) that resulted from this years Nationals. It would be my pleasure to help with your project (as well as ANYONE else following this thread) regarding documentation or the procedures that we discover. I am an advocate of sharing all the data that might be used to help the efforts of others. This thread started out a little rocky but I sincerely hope that down deep, some of the skeptics will realize that our focus is on the progression of the hobby and its participants! This will be a long (hopefully fun) journey and if one other person can benefit from the work involved, I will consider the outcome a successful one. I do promise that the car will be better than the Challenger in all areas. Each project is a learning experience. You take the aspects previously discovered in the last restoration, bring them to the next project and improve from there!




Dave, it was great to meet you and strike up a friendship at the Nats this year and I look forward to seeing this A-Body complete. The Promise that it will be better than the Challenger is a strong promise to keep, but I am sure that you and your team will accomplish it. The information that you acquire and share will certainly help my project and others, I am happy to see someone taking a similar track to what I have been planning with my car. I struggled back and forth for years on the decision to either restore my car or let it remain a survivor and live with the few items that need attention and the accumulated dust and dirt. Like I said, about a year ago, while finishing the Road Runner and restoring the Black car I had made the decision to clean up what is necessary on my Plymouth and leave my car as original and as close to Survivor status as possible. In the long run, it will be more time consuming and tedious, but it will be worth it since this car has been with me since I was 16 and it's the only car in the fleet that I will not sale unless I am in dire straights and absolutely have to. While it is "only a C-Body" (as some would say), it is still a pretty unique car. Similar to your car, I have the original tires that probably still have the original air in them since the owner put a set of Keystones on it almost immediately and put the tires, hubcaps and fender skirts in dry storage and they will probably stay there after I complete the car. It looks better with the Keystones on it, so if I display the car I will have the original tires and hubcaps on display next to it while running the current set-up. This car is still driven limited miles every year and will probably be driven after I am done with it, still on a limited basis.

Anyway enough about that, good luck on your A-Body and enjoy the process. Every restoration offers a unique opportunity to learn, document, teach and display how the cars were built and the subtle differences between each car, even if they were built back to back on the line.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 09:34 PM

Quote:

Similar to your car, I have the original tires that probably still have the original air in them since the owner put a set of Keystones on it almost immediately and put the tires, hubcaps and fender skirts in dry storage and they will probably stay there after I complete the car.




It appears both of us will need to use the same "carbon dating" kit in order to prove the validity of our statements. Steven Juliano spent the weekend visiting with me a couple of weeks ago and he ALSO spoke of a couple of his cars that tires have never been tweaked or inflated in over 20 years.
So the question is Shannon, who is going to purchase the carbon dating equipment? Do you want me to get the test unit and ship it to you after I have completed testing or should I wait for you to get it and then rent it from you at a later date?
Why do these things always have to get so complicated?

Thanks again!
Posted By: Big_John

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 09:53 PM

Would using an air compressor with the same build date as the car give you the correct air?




Sorry... just could not resist...
Posted By: 65pacecar

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/18/08 10:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Similar to your car, I have the original tires that probably still have the original air in them since the owner put a set of Keystones on it almost immediately and put the tires, hubcaps and fender skirts in dry storage and they will probably stay there after I complete the car.




It appears both of us will need to use the same "carbon dating" kit in order to prove the validity of our statements. Steven Juliano spent the weekend visiting with me a couple of weeks ago and he ALSO spoke of a couple of his cars that tires have never been tweaked or inflated in over 20 years.
So the question is Shannon, who is going to purchase the carbon dating equipment? Do you want me to get the test unit and ship it to you after I have completed testing or should I wait for you to get it and then rent it from you at a later date?
Why do these things always have to get so complicated?

Thanks again!


We have a full lab at work, but no carbon dating equipment.....Yet! Maybe I can shove it in on a CA sometime and justify it as Engineering Cost. I like the guys idea above too, date coded air compressor may save us all some time, I assume my tires may need to be topped off a little anyway.
Posted By: badblack68

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/19/08 03:03 AM

How will you keep the original factory installed fluids (oil, gear lube, etc.?) in useable condition?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/19/08 04:35 AM

Quote:

How will you keep the original factory installed fluids (oil, gear lube, etc.?) in useable condition?





In the Biblical sense (Matt 9:17) you should not put old wine into new wine skins.
Come to think of it, the oil of today was still processed thousands of years ago. (Wouldn't that make all oils NOS?) Who knows....the batch of fluids we end up using might have even come from the same site/batch used to lube these cars 40 years ago.

All kidding aside, new lubricants will be used of course.

Should we mix a small sample of the original oil, with the new oil for nostalgia’s sake?
Posted By: mr_belvedere

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/19/08 11:56 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Similar to your car, I have the original tires that probably still have the original air in them since the owner put a set of Keystones on it almost immediately and put the tires, hubcaps and fender skirts in dry storage and they will probably stay there after I complete the car.




It appears both of us will need to use the same "carbon dating" kit in order to prove the validity of our statements. Steven Juliano spent the weekend visiting with me a couple of weeks ago and he ALSO spoke of a couple of his cars that tires have never been tweaked or inflated in over 20 years.
So the question is Shannon, who is going to purchase the carbon dating equipment? Do you want me to get the test unit and ship it to you after I have completed testing or should I wait for you to get it and then rent it from you at a later date?
Why do these things always have to get so complicated?

Thanks again!


We have a full lab at work, but no carbon dating equipment.....Yet! Maybe I can shove it in on a CA sometime and justify it as Engineering Cost. I like the guys idea above too, date coded air compressor may save us all some time, I assume my tires may need to be topped off a little anyway.



Along with using a date coded air compressor, may I suggest using this air compressor only in the general vicinity of where your assembly plant is/was. The compressor will also need to have the air in it pumped out leaving only a vacuum, we don't need contaminated air.
Posted By: I go fast

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/19/08 01:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Similar to your car, I have the original tires that probably still have the original air in them since the owner put a set of Keystones on it almost immediately and put the tires, hubcaps and fender skirts in dry storage and they will probably stay there after I complete the car.




It appears both of us will need to use the same "carbon dating" kit in order to prove the validity of our statements. Steven Juliano spent the weekend visiting with me a couple of weeks ago and he ALSO spoke of a couple of his cars that tires have never been tweaked or inflated in over 20 years.
So the question is Shannon, who is going to purchase the carbon dating equipment? Do you want me to get the test unit and ship it to you after I have completed testing or should I wait for you to get it and then rent it from you at a later date?
Why do these things always have to get so complicated?

Thanks again!


We have a full lab at work, but no carbon dating equipment.....Yet! Maybe I can shove it in on a CA sometime and justify it as Engineering Cost. I like the guys idea above too, date coded air compressor may save us all some time, I assume my tires may need to be topped off a little anyway.



Along with using a date coded air compressor, may I suggest using this air compressor only in the general vicinity of where your assembly plant is/was. The compressor will also need to have the air in it pumped out leaving only a vacuum, we don't need contaminated air.




The air is already contaminated,I'm back!
Posted By: 71rm23

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/19/08 02:42 PM

Quote:

It has been about eight weeks since the Nationals and the completion of the Challenger project. Things went well overall but a reoccurring question kept finding its way back to me as a nagging thought. Could we have provided a better representation of a Factory Correct Vehicle? After about four weeks of thinking it over I have to say YES, we could have. With that in mind I asked myself what would constitute a “better” restoration than the one we had just completed? The only thing I could think of was to locate an absolutely pristine Survivor that still had EVERY single original part, hose, gasket, weather strip, etc…. that it did when it left the assembly line. Not only would this car have to posses those qualities but the components had to be in a condition not far off from the way they would have appeared when the car was new. In essence the selection of the car had to fit the category which meant that the “selection” of vehicle was not really much of a choice at all. A survivor in that particular condition isn't so easily found. Needless to say a vehicle was discovered that is almost as new looking (in some aspects) as the Challenger that we had brought to the Nationals. It even has the original air in all 5 tires. No joke! In 2010 (the good Lord willing) we will be bringing a BRAND SPANKING NEW 1970 BLACK A BODY PLYMOUTH to be entered in the OE competition. Not a single reproduction part, not even (hopefully) an NOS part. A car that is new with ALL the original components that it was born and manufactured with. It will be completely disassembled and touched up (where needed) in order to look like new. The party is about to start all over again. This one will definitely be fun!




Here's my question, Dave: Are you going to put the restoration process on this thread or have a separate one for it? My two I think it would be nice to have it on a different thread 'cause there's already two pages on this one or some other way?. But do as you wish, I'll probably still read them
Rod
Posted By: Plymouth273

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/19/08 05:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Similar to your car, I have the original tires that probably still have the original air in them since the owner put a set of Keystones on it almost immediately and put the tires, hubcaps and fender skirts in dry storage and they will probably stay there after I complete the car.




It appears both of us will need to use the same "carbon dating" kit in order to prove the validity of our statements. Steven Juliano spent the weekend visiting with me a couple of weeks ago and he ALSO spoke of a couple of his cars that tires have never been tweaked or inflated in over 20 years.
So the question is Shannon, who is going to purchase the carbon dating equipment? Do you want me to get the test unit and ship it to you after I have completed testing or should I wait for you to get it and then rent it from you at a later date?
Why do these things always have to get so complicated?

Thanks again!


We have a full lab at work, but no carbon dating equipment.....Yet! Maybe I can shove it in on a CA sometime and justify it as Engineering Cost. I like the guys idea above too, date coded air compressor may save us all some time, I assume my tires may need to be topped off a little anyway.



Along with using a date coded air compressor, may I suggest using this air compressor only in the general vicinity of where your assembly plant is/was. The compressor will also need to have the air in it pumped out leaving only a vacuum, we don't need contaminated air.




The air is already contaminated,I'm back!




So, does that mean your a complete jerk to everyone you know, or just the people you are jealous of? There are too many jealous petty people in this world that criticize others to mask their own lack of ability. Enjoy being making an A$$ of yourself, it does serve to amuse the rest of us.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/19/08 06:38 PM

Since this is an A-body and I know you are doing a package tray project....

I saw a 80K 71 Duster in a shop about 6 months ago. I noticed it had stitched edging to the package tray. Sure looked original, but didn't have a camera with me.

So yesterday at Fall Fling I see what looks to be an original package tray with the outline of stitched ends. Also had the indentations for popouts for the rear shoulder belt option. Seller can't remember if it was a Dart or Duster



Posted By: I go fast

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/19/08 06:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Similar to your car, I have the original tires that probably still have the original air in them since the owner put a set of Keystones on it almost immediately and put the tires, hubcaps and fender skirts in dry storage and they will probably stay there after I complete the car.




It appears both of us will need to use the same "carbon dating" kit in order to prove the validity of our statements. Steven Juliano spent the weekend visiting with me a couple of weeks ago and he ALSO spoke of a couple of his cars that tires have never been tweaked or inflated in over 20 years.
So the question is Shannon, who is going to purchase the carbon dating equipment? Do you want me to get the test unit and ship it to you after I have completed testing or should I wait for you to get it and then rent it from you at a later date?
Why do these things always have to get so complicated?

Thanks again!


We have a full lab at work, but no carbon dating equipment.....Yet! Maybe I can shove it in on a CA sometime and justify it as Engineering Cost. I like the guys idea above too, date coded air compressor may save us all some time, I assume my tires may need to be topped off a little anyway.



Along with using a date coded air compressor, may I suggest using this air compressor only in the general vicinity of where your assembly plant is/was. The compressor will also need to have the air in it pumped out leaving only a vacuum, we don't need contaminated air.




The air is already contaminated,I'm back!




So, does that mean your a complete jerk to everyone you know, or just the people you are jealous of? There are too many jealous petty people in this world that criticize others to mask their own lack of ability. Enjoy being making an A$$ of yourself, it does serve to amuse the rest of us.




Well "SPORT", there is nobody in this world I'm jealous of.Never was,never will be.Well,maybe you!As for ability,I'll match mine with yours anytime.
Posted By: MrNormsTA

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/19/08 06:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

the rest of us are enjoying ourselves and aren't threatened by the fact dave's cars are nicer than ours.




While that is a very kind compliment, it is definitely not true. There are MANY cars that are “nicer” or just as nice as what we have done. I would even venture to say that every car that is refurbished or restored has attributes that make it unique or just as “nice” to its owner. I have seen custom vehicles that convey craftsmanship unequaled to any thing we have ever done. What we do is better described as “different”. Every vehicle plays a significant role in the Car World that we all enjoy.

PS....I hope that the "well wishers" (or sometimes called nay sayers) continue to stick around. All joking aside, sometimes they really DO make comments that prompt constructive input or ideas!




One of the classier statements in this thread. Dave, your enthusiasm is contagious, and we can learn from all restorations and information, whether it be a race car or the challenge that is ahead of you guys. Everyone can enjoy the hobby in their own way, just try to respect those that go a different route.

Looking forward to my glass set for my A12. Thanks for giving us choices for restoration needs.

Rick.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 04:28 AM

Thanks again Rick!

Dave Stuart (aka DODGE MATERIAL) and I just got back from the LONG road trip of picking up the car. We spent over an hour in his assembly shop looking the car over very very closely. Unbelievable is all I can say. We are really excited about this project and will start posting tidbits of it's original attributes over the next couple of days.
Anything in particular that someone would like to see first? Stay tuned!!
Posted By: In_The_Pink

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 04:46 AM

Quote:

The only thing I could think of was to locate an absolutely pristine Survivor that still had EVERY single original part, hose, gasket, weather strip, etc…. that it did when it left the assembly line.




I'm following along and reading your answers Dave, and I have ask how you're going to handle parts/pieces/assemblies involving gaskets, especially those gaskets which do not usually make it through the disassembly process well enough to allow them to be used again upon re-assembly?

Am I correct in assuming that this vehicle will retain all of its orignal gaskets?

Quote:

It even has the original air in all 5 tires.




All of the original air, in all five tires, or just some of the original air? Are all five still fully inflated to the factory-correct pressure?

I may have missed it, or perhaps you did not mention it, but how many miles are showing on the odometer of this car?
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 05:44 AM

Quote:

Thanks again Rick!

Dave Stuart (aka DODGE MATERIAL) and I just got back from the LONG road trip of picking up the car. We spent over an hour in his assembly shop looking the car over very very closely. Unbelievable is all I can say. We are really excited about this project and will start posting tidbits of it's original attributes over the next couple of days.
Anything in particular that someone would like to see first? Stay tuned!!




In reference to my post about the rear package tray edging that is revelant to this discussion (as opposed to the pot stirrer's)... Does the car have edging sewn the package tray??
Posted By: polaraholic

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 09:34 AM

Dave, If you came across some line workers name they wrote or smeared in the coating like in the trunk would you put it back?
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 09:39 AM

Quote:


Anything in particular that someone would like to see first?




Any odd ball paper tags you might find like those ones found on fuel sending units of ebodys...
Posted By: AdamR

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 11:05 AM

Quote:

Since this is an A-body and I know you are doing a package tray project....

I saw a 80K 71 Duster in a shop about 6 months ago. I noticed it had stitched edging to the package tray. Sure looked original, but didn't have a camera with me.

So yesterday at Fall Fling I see what looks to be an original package tray with the outline of stitched ends. Also had the indentations for popouts for the rear shoulder belt option. Seller can't remember if it was a Dart or Duster









The tray that was in my Dart had the stitched edge
Posted By: 1MYTGTX

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 01:38 PM

That under body shot of the Challenger is amazing....reminds me of this one of the new Charger.
Good luck on your project

Attached picture 4761770-20547aa5893b51b5.jpg
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 02:03 PM

Quote:

The only thing I could think of was to locate an absolutely pristine Survivor that still had EVERY single original part, hose, gasket, weather strip, etc…. that it did when it left the assembly line.

I'm following along and reading your answers Dave, and I have ask how you're going to handle parts/pieces/assemblies involving gaskets, especially those gaskets which do not usually make it through the disassembly process well enough to allow them to be used again upon re-assembly?




I don’t think that paper items like gaskets or even certain paper tags fall into the realm of original "parts" if they need to be replaced. I have a few NOS rear end gaskets still in their original packages (some are old GM items) and you cannot tell the difference from the ones that are made today. It is impossible, for instance, to reuse an oil soaked rear end housing gasket once it is disassembled. Items like paper gaskets are classified just like the paint that will be used to re-spray items such as the axle tube, power steering unit or K-frame. As we get into disassembling the car some things like brake hoses (just speculation at this point) might not be safe enough to reuse. The oil filter had been replaced sometime in the life of the car so it will have to be replaced with an NOS assembly line version. Concerning the car, all body panels, interior pieces, tires, glass, suspension parts, hoses, clips, fastening hardware etc….. will be the same ones that came on the car in 1970. Common sense and safety will certainly be a factor for evaluation as we start to break down and document the components.

The car has right at 10K miles on it. The original owner must have never driven this thing in bad weather. After strapping down one of the tires (for the trip home) we un strapped it, only to hear the sad sound of psssssssss. One down four to go. Just for the record the owner told us the air was still original in the tires. Who could ever know for sure?!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 02:11 PM

Quote:

In reference to my post about the rear package tray edging that is revelant to this discussion (as opposed to the pot stirrer's)... Does the car have edging sewn the package tray??




Yes it does, along with a couple of round plastic plugs (with two other small ones) at each end. I will post a picture when I snap a shot of the package tray.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 02:15 PM

Quote:

Dave, If you came across some line workers name they wrote or smeared in the coating like in the trunk would you put it back?




We have in fact, already found markings like you have mentioned on the frame rails. We will be putting them back (when necessary) just like we found them. If possible we might be able to leave the original markings without disturbing them. I will get a picture and post it for you.
Posted By: mopardude84

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 08:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think Dave is trying to accomplish more with this one other than a perfect car. Correct me if I'm wrong Dave.




Hi Mr. C,
You have correctly assessed some of the rationale of doing this car. The A Body guys have been asking me (a long time) for the same attention that the B & E Body guys have received. It amazes me that people who have never seen the car, or even know what it is, have such definite OPINIONS about it. Even more comical is how one guy emailed me telling me what MY true intentions are concerning this project and not to argue with him otherwise! Maybe he can fill me in on what I think about other factors in my life. First of all the car will have to be worked on with the same mindset of the previous projects we did. The only difference will be that hundreds of hours on eBay and tens of thousands of dollars will not have to be allocated in finding parts. Some here say that is like shooting fish in a barrel?!? Since when did spending time looking for parts on eBay, Hemmings, etc…. constitute “factory documentation and research.” The CAR is the research!! I feel fortunate in not having to go through those arduous, (usually) necessary evils. As a matter of fact Chris, look at all the grief I took from these same individuals who did nothing but argue and nit pick about all the different parts that I DID have to locate after the fact. My Challenger was a complete car but the parts were in a condition that did not allow me to reuse the majority of them during the restoration. I was criticized for THAT particular scenario and now that I have found a way to keep ALL the original parts with the car, I am STILL getting chastised for! (I know the underlying basis of their criticism though.)
This car will still require a tremendous amount of time and artistic effort to end up with the desired results. ALL the bare metal will have to be reconditioned to look like new. The engine will have to be pulled and repainted to look like new again. The transmission will have to be detailed to look like new. The engine bay, K Frame, Rear End Housing, Power Steering Unit, Trunk, etc…. will have to be repainted to look like new again. The reoccurring theme here is “like new again.” I personally do not like the looks of a 40 year old survivor vehicle. While they are very nice, they do not look NEW. I enjoy making them look like factory fresh without the final result looking deliberate or “home made.”
For those who can’t understand how this helps the reproduction market, it is quite simple. As I go about disassembling AND DOCUMENTING EVERY SINGLE SCREW AND THE DIRECTION THEY WERE FACING WHEN REMOVED, I will have perfect examples of parts to format the new reproductions from. That is the beauty of this ordeal. Having pristine samples to make new products from. Isn’t that always a big complaint in the reproduction market? The parts just don’t look or fit just right! Nowhere did I ever say that these reproduction products will end up on this car. The original parts are nice enough for me to rework and restore them to look like new. I personally think it is beneficial NOT to have to spend endless hours replacing and having to find NOS parts. (Not to mention the economics of the project.) I think I have already put enough time and effort in that particular area with the last two cars. The first car was an incorrectly restored vehicle that we re-did and the critics said, “big deal…you took the characteristics from other original cars and put them back on yours”. The next car was a completely original car that needed many parts to be replaced with NOS parts. The critics came back with, “yeah but you didn’t put the correct NOS parts on the car that you should have”. Now I have a survivor and they have done a 180 from the FIRST scenario and are griping about this! Do you get the feeling it is not about what is being done with the cars but something that goes a little deeper with these people? For those that don’t appreciate or approve of the direction of this project….tough! Take care of yourselves and enjoy your life (and cars) the way you see fit.



boy if i had the money id buy a one owner hemi cuda, numbers matching, with all the documentation.....and burn it, then id post the video on here just to see what everybody had to say about it......lmao.... you guys are insane...... then after that id rebody the car with a slant 6 barracuda and sell it for 1 million bux
Posted By: In_The_Pink

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 08:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The only thing I could think of was to locate an absolutely pristine Survivor that still had EVERY single original part, hose, gasket, weather strip, etc…. that it did when it left the assembly line.

I'm following along and reading your answers Dave, and I have ask how you're going to handle parts/pieces/assemblies involving gaskets, especially those gaskets which do not usually make it through the disassembly process well enough to allow them to be used again upon re-assembly?




I don’t think that paper items like gaskets or even certain paper tags fall into the realm of original "parts" if they need to be replaced.




Huh? You typed, in your original post, "Not a single reproduction part, not even (hopefully) an NOS part. A car that is new with ALL the original components that it was born and manufactured with."

If a gasket was on the car when orignally built, why do you consider them to not be parts like any other part that the car was built with?

I wouldn't normally be so picky, but you did type "ALL" in caps and you've been steadfast in defending your position that this car retain all of it's original parts. If you don't doesn't keep or re-use every single part it was built with, the word all does not apply, by definition.

Quote:

Items like paper gaskets are classified just like the paint that will be used to re-spray items such as the axle tube, power steering unit or K-frame.




"Classified" by whom?

Quote:

Just for the record the owner told us the air was still original in the tires. Who could ever know for sure?!




And did you believe him/her that the tires never lost any air in 30+ years?
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 09:04 PM

In The Pink....You shouldn't question the way Dave words things...He's very sure of what he means....

I agree with Dave about the gaskets, fliuds, and such, however my question about odd paper information tags that MAY be found on the car goes un-answered...

Lets say while dismantling the car you find an odd paper tag attached somewhere practically un-seen.....you remove it and although it's 38 years old, dried up, krinkled, faded, and weathered, it's a PRIME example from which you can make a EXACT perfect copy of (it's what you do, right?)...

So which one finds it's way back onto the car?
The 38 year old ORIGINAL one?
or
Your nice NEW LOOKING perfect REPRODUCTION one?

The answer is obvious to me, but it contridicts Dave's opening statement....

Does paper tags really fall under the same catagory as gaskets?

Is stuff like paper tags available NOS...for example: If you buy an NOS fuel sender will it have the same tag as an assembly line part on it?
Posted By: In_The_Pink

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 09:22 PM

Quote:

In The Pink....You shouldn't question the way Dave words things...He's very sure of what he means....




Well maybe his definition of ALL is not correct, hence the questioning. If he states ALL parts will be original, then replaces a part with a non-original part, ALL no longer applies. I don't have an issue with replacing a part (he mentioned brake lines, for example), but then you can not say ALL parts are original.

To say you don't consider a certain type(s) of part to be the same as other parts is a cop-out, excuse, etc. He set the standard (that ALL parts would be orignal to the car), and now he's not following the standard (doesn't consider some parts to be considered parts), so then he should change his claim of using ALL original parts. That's why I question.

I don't have any issue with Dave's work or his products. I know they are top notch, but if you publicly make claims, I feel you should hold yourself to them, and not make exceptions, period. Would it be a PITA to lave all of the gaskets in place? Of course it would, but this is no ordinary resto, so why not go that extra step and keep it all original?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 11:05 PM

If I would have started this thread asking you what "parts" are involved in building a car, how would you have answered? Would you have referenced the paper engine ID tag that was found under the alternator bolt? What about a piece of tape that was used to hold down a vehicle traveler sheet? And what about the primers and paints? How did you overlook THAT area of "parts" regarding your definition of "ALL". Why didn't you call out the antifreeze or the gasoline? What about the brake fluid or the grease that will be used to re pack the wheel bearings? I could go on and on but do I really need to? Did you really think that "ALL the parts" were actually about perishables on the car? It seems that many people have opinions relating to certain areas while overlooking other areas of concern. I still stand by the wording "ALL of the parts"! It would be extremely hard to RE paint an original part with the original paint wouldn't it? Parts are Parts! The perishables are a totally different area of reference. Would you have even have had your rebuttal had I not told the truth regarding the subject and what would be in play for being replaced?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 11:10 PM

Quote:


boy if i had the money id buy a hemi cuda, numbers matching, with all the documentation.....




How about this one? What would you think of smashing the Cuda with the Challenger in one of those classy videos?

Posted By: In_The_Pink

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/20/08 11:40 PM

Quote:

If I would have started this thread asking you what "parts" are involved in building a car, how would you have answered?




You didn't, and we're discussing what you did claim and state.

Quote:

Would you have referenced the paper engine ID tag that was found under the alternator bolt? What about a piece of tape that was used to hold down a vehicle traveler sheet? And what about the primers and paints? How did you overlook THAT area of "parts" regarding your definition of "ALL".




You seem to have forgotten that you were the one who used the term ALL in your original post, so I'm questioning how you can make that claim regarding gaskets. I understand from your answers that you do not consider gaskets to be parts, so that still allows your definition of ALL to apply.

Quote:

Why didn't you call out the antifreeze or the gasoline? What about the brake fluid or the grease that will be used to re pack the wheel bearings? I could go on and on but do I really need to? Did you really think that "ALL the parts" were actually about perishables on the car? It seems that many people have opinions relating to certain areas while overlooking other areas of concern. I still stand by the wording "ALL of the parts"! It would be extremely hard to RE paint an original part with the original paint wouldn't it? Parts are Parts!




You mentioned the statement by the P.O. that the tires still contain the original air, yet you consider the replacement of perishables to be acceptable. Do you consider air in the tires to be a perishable item?

I'd love to hear an answer regarding my question about the air in the tires, which, based on the P.O.'s word, is original air....

Quote:

The perishables are a totally different area of reference. Would you have even have had your rebuttal had I not told the truth regarding the subject and what would be in play for being replaced?




Yes, if you claim all and only the original parts (except where a part has worn beyond re-use like your brake line example) are to be re-used. Had you said "all original parts except those which have excessive wear are are not safe to be re-used", I probably wouldn't have raised and eyebrow.

If you remove a gasket and it's re-useable, will you re-use it to keep things more original?
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 12:09 AM

Dave, I hope you've work out a cleaner way to take underside shots of your latest project...The Cuda and Challenger look great except the "big red hoist"

When you perfect the picture taking, you should re-do the other two cars as mentioned....Posters is not a far-fetched idea.

How about BEFORE and AFTER shots like that of the Valiant?
Posted By: mopardude84

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 12:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:


boy if i had the money id buy a hemi cuda, numbers matching, with all the documentation.....




How about this one? What would you think of smashing the Cuda with the Challenger in one of those classy videos?




i just think if its your car, do what you want with, ya know
you dont have to make anybody happy but yourself.... i think the word survivor should mean more then it does
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 01:06 AM

Quote:

I'd love to hear an answer regarding my question about the air in the tires, which, based on the P.O.'s word, is original air....

Yes, if you claim all and only the original parts (except where a part has worn beyond re-use like your brake line example) are to be re-used.




I like researching those who approach me with “my words” or tell me what “I meant” when I state something. Nowhere have I contradicted or back peddled with regards to the words “parts” or “components.” You have mentioned the brake hoses a couple of times as a reference to things I have said that I will replace. Maybe you have trouble reading or understanding but nowhere did I say that the brake hoses had to be replaced. I simply used those components as an EXAMPLE of an item that MIGHT need to be further evaluated as the disassembly process moves forward. I really am not to concerned with what you feel to be “correct” or not concerning this project. Coming from a person who shops the local Hardware stores for THEIR parts, I find your critique comical at best. Like I said in the beginning of my statement, I like to find the intent of strangers who come out of left field to play the semantics game. Here are a couple of posts from other threads that you have chimed in on:

YOUR QUOTE: “FWIW, I had a hard time finding them online, so I went to a great local Ace Hardware store (above and beyond what a normal Ace would stock) and found some heavy duty u-bolts for $3.00 or so each.”

YOUR QUOTE: “Make sure you measure the O.D. of the grey electrical conduit first. I had an old piece (at least five years ago) that was the perfect diameter, but it got tossed at some point. When I headed to Home Depot to buy another piece, the 3/4" plastic conduit's O.D. was too small. I ended up buying a piece of metal 3/4" conduit and it was the right O.D.”

You might want to get your own affairs in order before you become the “Mopar Police” telling people what they really meant concerning statements about their vehicles. Again, I stand on my original opening statement about “ALL” original components with no waver what so ever.

Ace Hardware? Home Depot? Thank you for your expertise and guidance on this project!

Oh yeah....the mention of "original air" was nothing more than a statement to stress how untouched and original the car is. Odd that you really needed to have that explained.
Posted By: badblack68

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 01:57 AM

Can`t wait to see a picture or two of this jewel.
Posted By: AllTrim Plus

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 03:33 AM

Dave (ECS), Yah know what, I have stayed out of these posts and off moparts now for a while, as i think its mostly a bunch of hippocritcal windbags and a bunch of wanne be's, chicken S@&%'s (that's for you Tom), and whiners on here.. (did i say that outloud)....

But i have really got to tell you...

your continued condescending come back comments to people is really OFF PUTTING enough for me to tell you this:

I originally had an immense respect (and i still somewhat do, but am losing it quickly), for you and your endeavors, and for your courage to stand up to these idiots... in lou of gettiing a rep for having an "attitude" ...

but what some have said in this forum about your statements seem to be pretty fair judgements of your written words... yet you feel the need to put them down, correct them, or make some seem as if they are beneath you, etc...

Really!

My Unsolicted advice:

Just go restore your car.... post picks or documanmtion, answer Q's along the way,, and enjoy it (how ever you do that?)...

but quit being such a DRAMA QUEEN!

In all sincerity

Mike
Posted By: In_The_Pink

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 03:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'd love to hear an answer regarding my question about the air in the tires, which, based on the P.O.'s word, is original air....




I like researching those who approach me with “my words” or tell me what “I meant” when I state something. Nowhere have I contradicted or back peddled with regards to the words “parts” or “components.” You have mentioned the brake hoses a couple of times as a reference to things I have said that I will replace. Maybe you have trouble reading or understanding but nowhere did I say that the brake hoses had to be replaced. I simply used those components as an EXAMPLE of an item that MIGHT need to be further evaluated as the disassembly process moved forward. I really am not to concerned with what you feel to be “correct” or not concerning this project.




I'm not interested in correctness. I had/have questions I would've liked answered so I could understand how and/or why you stated what you stated regarding gaskets, the original air in the tires, and your definition of the word all.

Quote:

Coming from a person who shops the local Hardware stores for THEIR parts, I find your critique comical at best. Like I said in the beginning of my statement, I like to find the intent of strangers who come out of left field to play the semantics game. Here are a couple of posts from other threads that you have chimed in on:

YOUR QUOTE: “FWIW, I had a hard time finding them online, so I went to a great local Ace Hardware store (above and beyond what a normal Ace would stock) and found some heavy duty u-bolts for $3.00 or so each.”

YOUR QUOTE: “Make sure you measure the O.D. of the grey electrical conduit first. I had an old piece (at least five years ago) that was the perfect diameter, but it got tossed at some point. When I headed to Home Depot to buy another piece, the 3/4" plastic conduit's O.D. was too small. I ended up buying a piece of metal 3/4" conduit and it was the right O.D.”

You might want to get your own affairs in order before you become the “Mopar Police” telling people what they really meant concerning statements about their vehicles. Again, I stand on my original opening statement about “ALL” original components with no waver what so ever.

Ace Hardware? Home Depot? Thank you for your expertise and guidance on this project!




You make very bold statements, stressing how original this car is going to be, then have a problem when someone asks you to clarify you statement or explain something regarding said car's originality? Sorry, but not everyone's going to your and just based on statements like "It even has the original air in all 5 tires".

Yes, I bought four heavy-duty u-bolts from Ace Hardware and used of a piece of electrical conduit I bought from Home Depot, as a tool, to help install the countershaft in an A-833. I don't see any reason that I should need to defend myself for doing so.

If you don't want to explain or answer some people's questions regarding statments you make, that's fine- it's completely your right to do so. Please understand that if you do make bold, absolute statements, that is an invitation to suspicion, and usually, in a public forum such as this, questions.

It's great that you are setting a very high standard for your project, but don't put yourself up to high in the process.

Best of luck on your project. I'll be following along.


Quote:

ah....the mention of "original air" was nothing more than a statement to stress how untouched and original the car is. Odd that you really needed to have that explained.




Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 04:09 AM

Quote:

My Unsolicted advice:




It will never cease to amaze me how some observers can watch the same ordeal and never have a clue as to the reality of the situation. You must have me confused with someone else posting on here Mike. I am extremely kind until someone decides to take a couple of punches just to stir the pot. Funny but you had to step right over the other garbage piles in order to call out my so called “attitude”. Imagine that Mike…I actually defend or counter the rude idiotic gestures that find their way into the scenario.
As far as your comment, “i think its mostly a bunch of hippocritcal windbags and a bunch of wanne be's, chicken S@&%'s”….. I believe you have officially become victim to your own critique and observations.
(The word is actually “hypocritical“. I hope your attention to detail is better represented in your line of work.)
Thanks for your sincere contribution here!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 04:28 AM

Quote:

Please understand that if you do make bold, absolute statements, that is an invitation to suspicion, and usually, in a public forum such as this, questions.




Don't judge others by your short comings or inability to comprehend our project. I had another fine gentleman just like you tell us with the last car that we would be eating "crow" based on the comments we made about our goals with that particular vehicle. Why not just sit back and let us make fools of ourselves Mr. Pink?! That way you are sure to get the satisfaction you are trying so diligently to obtain.
In reality, you know why you are posting here and I know why you are posting here. You don't wish to find answers to your questions. You are interested in trying to under mine anything that your mind is not capable of comprehending or understanding. You simply want to argue. What you need to do is get a big box. Then go outside and collect as many rocks as you can fit inside the box. After you do that, proceed to argue with that box of rocks. Don't be surprised, at the end of the exercise, if you find that you have met your intellectual match!
Posted By: sixbbl69

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 12:56 PM

DRAMMA QUEEN,so true ,so true.its good to sit in a office while the hired help does the work. have you ever really worked on a car? if so how do you do it with your PC attached to your hard hat so you can stand guard and reply to all these posts?
Posted By: I go fast

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 02:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Please understand that if you do make bold, absolute statements, that is an invitation to suspicion, and usually, in a public forum such as this, questions.




Don't judge others by your short comings or inability to comprehend our project. I had another fine gentleman just like you tell us with the last car that we would be eating "crow" based on the comments we made about our goals with that particular vehicle. Why not just sit back and let us make fools of ourselves Mr. Pink?! That way you are sure to get the satisfaction you are trying so diligently to obtain.
In reality, you know why you are posting here and I know why you are posting here. You don't wish to find answers to your questions. You are interested in trying to under mine anything that your mind is not capable of comprehending or understanding. You simply want to argue. What you need to do is get a big box. Then go outside and collect as many rocks as you can fit inside the box. After you do that, proceed to argue with that box of rocks. Don't be surprised, at the end of the exercise, if you find that you have met your intellectual match!





Actually,what you need to do is go find a bigger pedestal than you now have put yourself on.As for AllTrim's suggestion,just go do the car,can't agree more!.Also,as a businessman,some of your statements are less than professional!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 02:31 PM

Quote:

some of your statements are less than professional!




You are actually right. I don't get paid to make those statements.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 02:50 PM

Hey sixbbl....
Posted By: Mr. Smurf

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 03:43 PM

Not trying to Sounds like an interesting project!

What will you use for parts if something needs to be replaced from a safety standpoint? Like a 40 year old rubber brake hose?

Ed
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 04:00 PM

Quote:

Not trying to Sounds like an interesting project!

What will you use for parts if something needs to be replaced from a safety standpoint? Like a 40 year old rubber brake hose?

Ed




Hello Ed! You bring up a very valid point. When we first looked the car over, everything appeared to be in excellent condition. The car has not been disassembled and we will not start that process until we have documented the vehicle with digital pictures and video. Our initial goal (as stated in my first post) was,
"Not a single reproduction part, not even (hopefully) an NOS part."

I am almost positive that we will not need to use any reproduction parts throughout this project. As we get into taking things apart (like the brake hoses for example) we will be able to evaluate those areas to a greater degree. If in fact we find that some parts cannot be used due to safety factors, they will be replaced with NOS originals. We are crossing our fingers that the "hopefully" part of the equation ends up taking precedence. Thank you for your input!!
Posted By: Mike Mancini

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 10:30 PM

Dave,

Unless you build the car in an exact replica of the factory assembly plant and put it together using NOS assembly line tools, I for one will consider the project a total zero.

-Mike Mancini
Posted By: Snoopy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/21/08 10:57 PM

Dave,
If you really intend to duplicate a 70's era American made car, you are going to have to hire some unskilled people with alcohol and drug problems. Make sure you keep them away from any machinery for the first two hours of their shift and anytime after breakfast, lunch or dinner, depending on which shift they work. Then be prepared to replace them on a weekly basis.
Good luck with your project.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/22/08 05:08 PM

Quote:

its good to sit in a office while the hired help does the work.




I have to admit that I am envious of you sixbbl69. I had no idea you had it so easy. Having two different companies and building cars doesn't give me much idle time. Good to see someone can enjoy the easy life!

Back to the subject, here are a few pictures of the car and some of the original attributes. As you can see (Alan G. had inquired about this particular area) the engine paper tag has almost completely worn/torn away. It will need to be replaced. Again let me stress that we cannot restore original paper, gaskets, oil, grease or other related perishables. We should be able to use all the original parts to come up with a car that is factory "new" in appearance. Let me know if there are other specific areas that anyone would like see or inquire about. Thanks!






Posted By: Paul Jacobs

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/22/08 06:11 PM

Wow, a slant six car to boot-gotta say I love it!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/22/08 06:31 PM

When will images be posted of the car in it's current state?
Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/22/08 06:45 PM

Quote:

When will images be posted of the car in it's current state?



I think you just saw some.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/22/08 08:12 PM

No, I guess I took to long posting the question...
I do see the images now.
Will other images be uploaded? Maybe of the outside of the car?
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/22/08 08:26 PM

Great Pictures Dave...keep em comin..

Am I correct in assuming that stuff like the trunk weather-strip will NOT be removed, only cleaned in place to preserve the exact original location and glue squeeze-out?

Or.....will you remove everything and re-do it exactly so that the glue will have the correct "NEW" yellow appearance and not the 38 year brownish yellow colour?

I like the fuel filler as well...I would just leave it alone, looks new to me
Posted By: Captain Flapjack

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/23/08 12:37 AM

Quote:







original cars are cool, and such a case study

alot can be learned and in this case preserved

the remnants of the tag is cool in itself
but its interesting to see how the paint stayed on the water pump better than it did the inner housing

im sure youll do a great job again, and enjoy yourself during this process, this is supposed to be a learning experience, fun and rewarding
Posted By: badblack68

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/23/08 01:24 AM

How about a shot of the entire car?
Posted By: AZ_A12_BEE

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/24/08 02:00 AM

Blah blah blah, try this for a real challenge

Attached picture 4769180-206_0671(Large).JPG
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/24/08 02:03 AM

Quote:

Blah blah blah, try this for a real challenge




I could not agree more. Jeez, this thread just reeks of "I am so great come worship me"
Posted By: AZ_A12_BEE

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/24/08 03:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Blah blah blah, try this for a real challenge




I could not agree more. Jeez, this thread just reeks of "I am so great come worship me"




Im just teasing him, I really respect the effort he puts in his cars
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/24/08 04:24 AM

Quote:

I could not agree more. Jeez, this thread just reeks of "I am so great come worship me"




What exactly bothers you about posting subjects that might be interesting or educational to others? Since you made the inaccurate statement, how about substantiating it with some form of quoted proof. Please find and copy ONE comment where I have EVER said that "My stuff is the best" or "our team of guys do the best cars ever" or "I am so great come worship me" or ANYTHING even close to that type of arrogance. As a matter of fact, I will pay you $10,000 if you can find ANY words that I have ever made saying that the work we do is even "good". I think once you waste your time with that exercise, you will realize the problem lies somewhere with you!
Posted By: DodgeMaterial

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/28/08 01:20 AM

Dave Walden, I and others are looking forward to this project. If we do everything right we will be able to document all aspects on how this A-Body was assembled and how it is restored. By choosing a very nice and extremely original car to begin with we hope to leave doubt and controversy out of the project. This car is nice - but not perfect due to age and 10,000 miles. Yes the tires (and virtually everything) are original but no longer in the condition it was in when it left the plant in April 1970. We strive to bring it back to that level. Stay tuned - we will do our best to entertain and share.

Dave W.- should I air up this front tire?

Dave

Attached picture 4776634-LowTire.jpg
Posted By: badblack68

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/28/08 02:44 PM

Dave, would you post a picture of the whole car so we can see and know what make, model, and year A body this project is all about.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/28/08 02:55 PM

Would this car happen to be the 1970 red 340 Duster that came out of California recently?
Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/28/08 04:19 PM

Quote:

Would this car happen to be the 1970 red 340 Duster that came out of California recently?



No.
Posted By: Anonymous

Post deleted by moparts - 10/28/08 05:32 PM

Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/28/08 06:13 PM

I'm thinking it's a 70 Valiant 4dr, black with blue interior, 6cyl auto....

I'm glad someone has the power to un-lock this thread....It's just getting good
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/28/08 07:06 PM

Quote:

Looks like this car will be a new surviver.Small amount of paint blending and freshen up the rest of the car.No restoration needed (good as it gets?)




**This car will still require a tremendous amount of time and artistic effort to end up with the desired results. ALL the bare metal will have to be reconditioned to look like new. The engine will have to be pulled and repainted to look like new again. The transmission will have to be detailed to look like new. The engine bay, K Frame, Rear End Housing, Power Steering Unit, Trunk, etc…. will have to be repainted to look like new again. The reoccurring theme here is “like new again.” I personally do not like the looks of a 40 year old survivor vehicle. While they are very nice, they do not look NEW. I enjoy making them look like factory fresh without the final result looking deliberate or “home made.”**


Here is what I wrote in an earlier thread Steve. It will need a lot of TLC to look new again. You will need to see it (when you get back) before we get going on it.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/28/08 07:31 PM

Quote:

I'm thinking it's a 70 Valiant 4dr, black with blue interior, 6cyl auto....

I'm glad someone has the power to un-lock this thread....It's just getting good




I had Tom unlock it yesterday. Excellent observation on the type of vehicle Alan! (So really now, who tipped you off?)





Posted By: MattMPA

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/28/08 07:51 PM

Nice work on doing a "different" car...I knew it was a slant six when I saw the picture with the fuel pump.

I like all Mopars, but am really glad to see someone thinking a bit out of the box..not an "E" or a Hemi...but a slant six...sedan no less.

I entered my '72 slant six Scamp in last year's SME....scoring 97.5, so I know about doing something different.

My Scamp was purchased new by my Grandmother so there's a personal attachment...but we have had a blast showing a concours 225 powered Scamp!
Posted By: lmn6pack

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/28/08 11:20 PM

By the few pics I see it already looks OE certified. Lets see some of the challenges associated with this car.
Posted By: DodgeMaterial

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/28/08 11:26 PM

Dave neglected to show you the passenger side...pretty sly huh? Actually there are a few challenges...

Attached picture 4778377-Rougher.JPG
Posted By: DodgeMaterial

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/28/08 11:30 PM

I know that was cheap fun - here is the real shot. Dave W. will post a few more of those challenges and eventually the process of restoring them soon. DodgeMaterial - Dave

Attached picture 4778383-DSCF0602A.JPG
Posted By: MoparABE

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/28/08 11:54 PM

"ALL the bare metal will have to be reconditioned to look like new."


What is the secret process to doing this? I'd like to find out.
Posted By: AdamR

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/29/08 12:56 AM

Quote:

I'm thinking it's a 70 Valiant 4dr, black with blue interior, 6cyl auto....

I'm glad someone has the power to un-lock this thread....It's just getting good




I called it on the first page.

Quote:

Quote:


By saying 70 Plymouth A Body and NOT saying Duster, are you saying it's a Scamp or Valiant? How may doors does it have?





Duster and Valiant 4dr only for 70 Plymouths. Scamps came out in 71.


Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/29/08 03:12 AM

Here is a question we have not yet answered. Were the oil filters on the slant six engines originally the Green type? The original one is gone and we are still in search of 1970 photos that might show this particular feature.
Thanks!
Posted By: Mark340A66

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/29/08 09:05 PM

Quote:

Here is a question we have not yet answered. Were the oil filters on the slant six engines originally the Green type? The original one is gone and we are still in search of 1970 photos that might show this particular feature.
Thanks!




Dave: I haven't heard if the original battery is still in the car? That would be truly amazing considering how crude the charging systems were.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/29/08 09:48 PM

Hi Mark,
The original battery is long gone. It still has the original cables though. We do know from the buildsheets that it took the yellow cap battery. I have 21 months to locate an original....that will be a tough find!
Dave Stuart has confirmed that the oil filter is the green style that was used on the assembly line.
Posted By: I go fast

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/29/08 10:18 PM

So they never changed the oil!
Posted By: DodgeMaterial

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/30/08 12:17 AM

Quote:

So they never changed the oil!




Quote: Here is a question we have not yet answered. Were the oil filters on the slant six engines originally the Green type? The original one is gone and we are still in search of 1970 photos that might show this particular feature.
Thanks!


If you missed it Dave W. stated the original oil filter is gone... so unless someone was too lazy to change the oil too - I would say it HAS been changed.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/30/08 04:33 AM

Quote:

Hi Mark,
The original battery is long gone. It still has the original cables though. We do know from the buildsheets that it took the yellow cap battery. I have 21 months to locate an original....that will be a tough find!
Dave Stuart has confirmed that the oil filter is the green style that was used on the assembly line.




Is there such a thing? And if you find one, will it look "NEW" or function like new?
Can they be rebuilt/restored?

If you do find an original please post pictures of it beside a reproduction....I don't think I've ever seen an original Is there a lot of differences?

Which leads me to a OE Level judging question....
If a persons car is sporting a reproduction battery, which I'm sure 99% are....Is there a point deduction?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/30/08 04:48 PM

Quote:


Is there such a thing? And if you find one, will it look "NEW" or function like new?

If you do find an original please post pictures of it beside a reproduction....

Is there a point deduction?





Question #1 - I can't answer that question. I will only know the condition of the battery, once it is found, in order to evaluate it.

Question #2 - I don't have a reproduction yellow top battery nor will I buy one unless I cannot find an original. If I can't find an original I will not have anything to compare a reproduction to. If I find an original I will be able to answer question #one and there will be no reason to purchase a reproduction. (Just for a comparison.)

Question #3 - I am almost sure you get a point deduction for any reproduction part found on an OE judged car.

Thanks!
Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/30/08 05:18 PM

Quote:

Is there such a thing? And if you find one, will it look "NEW" or function like new?
Can they be rebuilt/restored?

If you do find an original please post pictures of it beside a reproduction....I don't think I've ever seen an original Is there a lot of differences? I know of one difference that will give you a "clue" or telltale that it "might" be an original battery and not a reproduction. To be fair to Dave's search I'll pm what it is (to you Dave) if you don't already know? I even have a photo . Let me know.

Which leads me to a OE Level judging question....
If a persons car is sporting a reproduction battery, which I'm sure 99% are....Is there a point deduction?







Quote:

Quote:


Is there such a thing? And if you find one, will it look "NEW" or function like new?

If you do find an original please post pictures of it beside a reproduction....

Is there a point deduction?





Question #1 - I can't answer that question. I will only know the condition of the battery, once it is found, in order to evaluate it.

Question #2 - I don't have a reproduction yellow top battery nor will I buy one unless I cannot find an original. If I can't find an original I will not have anything to compare a reproduction to. If I find an original I will be able to answer question #one and there will be no reason to purchase a reproduction. (Just for a comparison.)

Question #3 - I am almost sure you get a point deduction for any reproduction part found on an OE judged car. Dave, be honest here is this the main reason for going with a 99.99% original equipment "survivor" with no reproduction items on it. That's been my "opinion" from your first post and I still think it is very clever thinking on your part (pun) to approach it this way and eliminate the point deductions for reproduction, NOS, and even lunchbox items that may be questioned.

Thanks!


Posted By: 340wedge

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/30/08 05:32 PM

-Dave-
What's the story on why this A body has such low mileage? I'm looking foward to seeing something different restored to OEM...
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/30/08 06:50 PM

Dave W. has come up with some amazing NOS finds before, like a complete rally dash for his 70 Challenger, so I'm certain that if there is a NOS battery or perfect original (correctly dated of course )out there, he WILL find it.
A feat that 99% of us, myself included, can't even imagine attempting.
U da man
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/30/08 09:25 PM

Quote:


A feat that 99% of us, myself included, can't even imagine attempting.





Stop it Alan!! That is a very nice thing to say but there is not a single thing that we have done that could not be done by ANYONE who decided to take the time and effort to do it. Without the input of everyone involved, none of this would be possible. We have a very competent group of people who contribute to get the overall desired results. (I am just the goofball that keeps slamming into the brick wall no matter what the results might be.) Dave Stuart and Steve Been are a couple of guys that are great to have involved with the project. I know that everyone knows the expert skills of Steve and Dave is a great new addition in the mix of things. Having a Chrysler executive (over 20 years experience) involved is a tremendous asset!

Thanks for the compliment Mr. G!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 10/30/08 09:30 PM

Quote:

-Dave-
What's the story on why this A body has such low mileage? I'm looking foward to seeing something different restored to OEM...




The original owner died a few years ago and she was 94. It was bought by a couple of different collectors who kept the original miles very low. One of the rear seat belts still had the plastic protector sleeve still in place right before we got it!
Posted By: Discoquik

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/07/08 05:39 PM

Quote:

-Dave-
What's the story on why this A body has such low mileage? I'm looking foward to seeing something different restored to OEM...




Pretty sure this was the car on Ebay someone bought for their son, and the kid didn't want it, He wanted to play Golf or something along those lines instead. Maybe two years ago now?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/10/08 10:39 PM

We have been documenting the car and will start posting some of the photos showing original details. Here is a picture of the wiper motor. Notice there is no red sealer on the round, flat wire area. A past thread discussed how the 1971 model years did not come with the sealer but this one obviously came without it. The car was built April 16, 1970 so it would not be considered a late built vehicle. Has anyone else documented 1970 cars that exhibit this (no sealer) characteristic? Maybe Jules can offer his expertise on this subject.

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/10/08 11:30 PM

Dave,
I do not have an EXACT cutoff date but I am quite confident that very early in the 1970 year the sealer was dropped.
Yours may be the earliest I have seen.
Jules
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/11/08 02:33 AM

How far will this car be taken apart? Would it make sense, or would there be any need to remove items such as door glass or regulators? Windshield or back glass? Will the fenders or doors even need to be removed?
In the case of the fenders it would be a shame to "up-set" the original factory undercoat wouldn't it?

Now you've had your hands on the car for a while what are your plans?

How far will you go when dismantling it?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/11/08 03:12 AM

Quote:

How far will this car be taken apart? How far will you go when dismantling it?




At this point we are planning on taking most of the car apart. All glass will be removed, stainless trim buffed to look new, engine and drive train taken out as well as the complete front and rear suspension. The body panels (doors-fenders-trunk deck-hood) will not be removed. The doors work perfectly and I would not want to upset how well they operate. We should be able to match the jambs and engine compartment when the outside is shot with one coat of paint. We are still trying to figure out if any other panels might not need to be re-sprayed in the process. As stated at the beginning of this thread, the project will involve a tremendous amount of craftsmanship with regards to having seamless blends with the existing paint. All the undercoat will also be preserved and tinted to look like the day it was applied. The natural metal components will also have to be resurfaced to look like new again.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/11/08 11:51 AM

Sounds Great No easy task, that's for sure....Getting the underside of the floor pan to look NEW again will be a challenge, please follow through with lots of before pictures of what you find
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/14/08 06:13 PM

Here are a couple of pictures of the trunk latch and choke control housing. The grease is still the "stuff" that was applied at the factory. The underside cutouts in the trunk lid allow the "rust free" metal to be seen on the underside of the deck surface. It is amazing how clean the bare matal has survived all of these years!
The other picture is of the choke control. It has "HOLLEY" stamped in the surface. I have seen NOS pieces that do not have this feature incorporated in the design. This might be a main difference between NOS parts and assembly line versions. Has anyone else seen this type of stamping on other choke housings?



Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/14/08 10:30 PM

Cool Pics!!
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/14/08 10:55 PM

Maybe you should grab this on for your next project.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-PLYM...1QQcmdZViewItem
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 12:40 AM

Neat car....would require to many replacement parts to start with.
With this Valiant project we were looking for a car that had no body panel damage and would need no reproduction parts. The white Challenger had reproduction carpet and a package tray. The only way to improve on THIS project would be to find a vehicle that needed NO reproduction replacement parts. I think we lucked out when we found this candidate!
Posted By: sixbbl69

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 01:11 AM

how do you know the grease is factory? now i know this reply will be good.
Posted By: I go fast

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 02:01 AM

Latch must have had an adjustment also.
Posted By: MattMPA

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 03:42 AM

I have seen many NOS slant-six chokes with the Holley lettering...there's one on my car now.

When doing the resto on my Scamp, it was nuts trying to find all the little oddball things for a six. My car had belonged to my Grandmother so it had not been messed with...which was a huge help. All the original stuff was there.

It did not help matters that our Scamp was built in Canada and had several little odd things that cars built here did not.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 03:54 AM

Quote:

how do you know the grease is factory? now i know this reply will be good.




We found the original factory part numbers still embedded in it!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 03:58 AM

Quote:

Latch must have had an adjustment also.




Believe it or not, the factory line workers actually had to do panel adjustments after they were initially bolted into place.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 04:45 AM

Quote:

Maybe you should grab this on for your next project.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-PLYM...1QQcmdZViewItem




Would like to see underchassis pictures of that car. I had a 50K orig mi 67 ChevyII from So Cal. Orig seats, wires, brake drum stickers...

I drove sparingly through a few Iowa winters. Those few winters made the non undercoated chassis look worse than the prior 25 years driving around So Cal.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 12:57 PM

Was grease applied at the factory?
At the dealer during PDI?
or at it's first oil change?
Posted By: sixbbl69

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 01:22 PM

Quote:

Was grease applied at the factory?
At the dealer during PDI?
or at it's first oil change?



depends on where he decides it was put on.this stuff is made up as the project goes along.the only way this car is going to end up like he said it was going to be in early post would to have left it alone. but this is typical of all his post. says 1 thing but totally different at the end.isn't this all about getting attention??
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 03:22 PM

Quote:

Was grease applied at the factory?
At the dealer during PDI?
or at it's first oil change?




I wasn't bashing I was asking a seriuos question to see if the answer is known....
Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 03:58 PM

Alan,
quite sure that is original latch assembly grease. As you know I am close to getting my latch resto
started. I have taken apart many latches and that yellow grease is not only visible from the outside ( like
in that picture Dave posted) but it is also found inside lubricating the moving parts.
Jules
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 04:13 PM

Sounds simple enough...But know Dave has a small quandry on his hands.....Because his intentions are to make the car look "NEW" like it's 1970 all over again...How will he be able to tell what colour the grease was 38 years ago?
Did it start off white and turn yellow with age or was it always yellow and never changed colour....????

Same with the glue squeeze out on the weather-strip??? It appears dark yellow almost brown, but 38 years ago was it bright yellow like the 3M stuff we're used to today?

I'm certain that's why Dave took on this project...to dicover all the secrets hidden before our eyes
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 05:02 PM

Quote:

this stuff is made up as the project goes along.




No sixbbl69.….you got it all wrong! I leave the tough questions up to guys like you and sixpackwagon. Speaking of tough questions sixbbl69, what about that question I asked you regarding seeing and inspecting my Challenger in person? You Talked as if you had seen it first hand, expressing your expert opinions but never acknowledging whether you had actually seen it or not. Please assure us that you are not one of those people who make definite remarks with no factual support whatsoever. With that said, what was your assessment of the grease on this trunk latch when you inspected it? Did you also think that if felt a bit “rubbery” from being exposed for so many years?
And for our resident expert sixpackwagon, don’t you know how the factory assembled many of these trunk latches? Please give us your synopsis on how this particular latch was installed and the detailed assembly sequence on how/why the “chipped paint” occurred on the attaching bolts. I am sure all of us following this topic would like to hear your wisdom and interpretation of the procedure!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 05:33 PM

Quote:

Alan,
quite sure that is original latch assembly grease. As you know I am close to getting my latch resto
started. I have taken apart many latches and that yellow grease is not only visible from the outside ( like
in that picture Dave posted) but it is also found inside lubricating the moving parts.
Jules




Jules Buddy,
Please refrain from making comments such as this. You should know that researching a subject over many years makes you the last person credible enough to convey such facts.
What you should do is tell us what it is like to walk on the moon or to fly a jet at a speed of Mach 4. Talking about subjects that you have never seen or been involved with definitely lends more “expert” credibility to a topic of discussion.

(Jules....funny that no one took exception when you stated that you were "quite sure" it was original assembly grease. Maybe I should have you post any future findings on the car! )
Posted By: I go fast

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! *DELETED* - 11/15/08 05:49 PM

Post deleted by 6packwagon
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 06:03 PM

Quote:

**No,maybe you should just quit posting until the d*mn things finished then everyone can tell you how great you are."again".**




I knew that class I took on “envyology” would come in handy someday. Here is what your comment translates to be:

** “I am a jealous person who can’t stand anyone that I don’t know, having or obtaining anything that I don’t have.” **

Get a life! A six cylinder 4 door Valiant is hardly the vehicle to have an “attitude” or problem with!
Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 06:14 PM

Hey Dave how about a comment on my license plate screw thread? It's one down.
Posted By: 71rm23

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 06:25 PM

Quote:

Alan,
quite sure that is original latch assembly grease. As you know I am close to getting my latch resto
started. I have taken apart many latches and that yellow grease is not only visible from the outside ( like
in that picture Dave posted) but it is also found inside lubricating the moving parts.
Jules




Juels, I hope you get the latch resto goin soon
Posted By: 71TA

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 08:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Similar to your car, I have the original tires that probably still have the original air in them since the owner put a set of Keystones on it almost immediately and put the tires, hubcaps and fender skirts in dry storage and they will probably stay there after I complete the car.




It appears both of us will need to use the same "carbon dating" kit in order to prove the validity of our statements. Steven Juliano spent the weekend visiting with me a couple of weeks ago and he ALSO spoke of a couple of his cars that tires have never been tweaked or inflated in over 20 years.
So the question is Shannon, who is going to purchase the carbon dating equipment? Do you want me to get the test unit and ship it to you after I have completed testing or should I wait for you to get it and then rent it from you at a later date?
Why do these things always have to get so complicated?

Thanks again!


We have a full lab at work, but no carbon dating equipment.....Yet! Maybe I can shove it in on a CA sometime and justify it as Engineering Cost. I like the guys idea above too, date coded air compressor may save us all some time, I assume my tires may need to be topped off a little anyway.



Along with using a date coded air compressor, may I suggest using this air compressor only in the general vicinity of where your assembly plant is/was. The compressor will also need to have the air in it pumped out leaving only a vacuum, we don't need contaminated air.




The air is already contaminated,I'm back!




So, does that mean your a complete jerk to everyone you know, or just the people you are jealous of? There are too many jealous petty people in this world that criticize others to mask their own lack of ability. Enjoy being making an A$$ of yourself, it does serve to amuse the rest of us.




Critical again. 96 posts and not one single constructive bit of help.
Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 08:11 PM

Dave,
I gave you a very good word of advice a while ago--IGNORE.
Just do your thing. Many here appreciate your efforts and many will
use your sweat to do their projects correctly. STOP wasting your time with
those that have NOTHING constructive to add to a thread.
Keep up the great work.
Jules
Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 08:14 PM

Quote:

Dave,
I gave you a very good word of advice a while ago--IGNORE.
Just do your thing. Many here appreciate your efforts and many will
use your sweat to do their projects correctly. STOP wasting your time with
those that have NOTHING constructive to add to a thread.
Keep up the great work.
Jules



I think he's heard that before from others as well.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 08:21 PM

I know you guys are right. But sometimes you can hardly control the urge to jump in and assist the rats with chasing their own tails!
Posted By: CrAzYMoPaRGuY

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 09:59 PM

Quote:



I'm certain that's why Dave took on this project...to dicover all the secrets hidden before our eyes




You drip with sarcasm!
Posted By: Big_John

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/15/08 10:53 PM

Quote:

Dave,
I gave you a very good word of advice a while ago--IGNORE.
Just do your thing. Many here appreciate your efforts and many will
use your sweat to do their projects correctly. STOP wasting your time with
those that have NOTHING constructive to add to a thread.
Keep up the great work.
Jules




Its always best not to sink to anyone else's level.
Posted By: VCODE

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/16/08 12:17 AM

Quote:

Dave,

Just do your thing. Many here appreciate your efforts and many will
use your sweat to do their projects correctly. STOP wasting your time with
those that have NOTHING constructive to add to a thread.
Keep up the great work.
Jules





You are teaching us and helping the Mopar hobby so much
Thanks
Bob Conca
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/16/08 05:07 AM

Thanks Bob!
We will have updates on all kinds of unique findings as the project progresses. We don't offer this information as mandatory instructions to argue over but as a factual basis of details for those who are interested in factory assembly line procedures. Any and ALL suggestions are welcome regarding the direction we take as this project progresses! While this vehicle may be different from other models, certain characteristics will also be applicable to other contrasting cars. Let us know if there are any specific areas you would like to see in detail!
Posted By: rayztoy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/16/08 09:01 PM

Quote:

Dave,

Just do your thing. Many here appreciate your efforts and many will
use your sweat to do their projects correctly. STOP wasting your time with
those that have NOTHING constructive to add to a thread.
Keep up the great work.
Jules





You are teaching us and helping the Mopar hobby so much
Thanks
Bob Conca




THANKS DAVE! I've learned alot from your posts.
Posted By: ChryCoGuy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/17/08 08:31 PM

Just ran across this thread. I think it's a cool idea!

I'm looking forward to the information that will be brought forth from this research. Stuff like this is what keeps the hobby interesting for me... thanks for including all of us in your project!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/17/08 10:53 PM

I got pictures of the white car at this years nats. if this is like that one i look forward to seeing and hearing about it.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/17/08 11:27 PM

Thanks. We will have some updated pictures in the next couple of days!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 12:36 AM

Here are a few more detail shots. One thing that has not been discussed is the odd setup that this car was manufactured with. It is a slant six but came with front MANUAL disc brakes! It also has an 8 3/4 rear end with 3.21:1 gears and posi-traction. This odd setup was one of the main reasons I was drawn to this 4 door Valiant. Two build sheets came with the car so it was easy to document all of the car's factory options. (It also has a rear window defogger.) Has anyone else seen this type of drive train setup in a six cylinder car?






Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 12:57 AM

Are those two different head size screws on the fender tag or just the angle of the photo?
Posted By: VCODE

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 01:01 AM

Hi Dave,
Did not know that Valiants where built in Hamtramck.I learn something new every day here with your Posts.
My Cuda has a SPD of 418 just 2 days and 1577 cars later.
Thanks for the help
Bob
Posted By: DusterKrazy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 01:16 AM

I gotta say this is quite intresting. I never see this kind of attention paid to an a body. But Im glad it is. Especially since it's the most uncommon choice ever. Sweet!
Posted By: DUSTER_340

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 01:17 AM

Dave I have a question on the horns.The horn you have the photo of, appears to have a bolt securing the horn to the bracket.Thus allowing the horn to be pivoted about the bracket.Do you know if this style was a replacment horn,or to what cars the solid mount was original to?
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 01:19 AM

(quote) Has anyone else seen this type of drive train setup in a six cylinder car? (quote)..


Back in 79 my wifes 71 6cyl Dart Swinger Special (low end of line) had air,rim blow wheel,front sway bar,disc brakes and 8 3/4 sure grip.Don't know ratio but on a trip to Canada it made 26mpg.


This is how it ended up.

Attached picture 4830229-MVC-015S-2.jpg
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 01:25 AM

Yes, the screws have two different size heads on them. The pictures we are taking are really close in proximity to the parts so we can put things back exactly as they were.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 01:31 AM

Quote:

Dave I have a question on the horns.The horn you have the photo of, appears to have a bolt securing the horn to the bracket.Thus allowing the horn to be pivoted about the bracket.Do you know if this style was a replacment horn,or to what cars the solid mount was original to?




As far as I know, most early 70's original horns had this type of configuration. Of all the ones I have worked with the bracket was never solidly attached to the horn but had the ability to move bidirectional a click (or raised spot) at a time.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 01:37 AM

The more I see the A Body cars, the better I like them. Yours is certainly a beautiful example of that year car. It sounds like your model also had some unique options. Did you order the car new or find out how it ended up with some of those various options?
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 06:30 AM

Quote:

(quote) Has anyone else seen this type of drive train setup in a six cylinder car? (quote)..


Back in 79 my wifes 71 6cyl Dart Swinger Special (low end of line) had air,rim blow wheel,front sway bar,disc brakes and 8 3/4 sure grip.Don't know ratio but on a trip to Canada it made 26mpg.


This is how it ended up.




I've pulled a couple A body 8 3/4's out of 71 Swingers like that with discs, a/c, rim blow. V8 and /6. Non were sure grip, but I think that would be more popular in a non performance car back east. The rim blow was part of a package that was pretty popular. The Swinger rim blows I used to see were cracked badly and alway have an aftermarket button switch drilled in the center cap.

Here one for sale at the 2005 San Diego swap meet for $1700 with a maaco type paint job. IIRC, it was a /6 but did not have an 8 3/4 nor disc brakes.



2nd car is a really nice survivor 71 Swinger 51K miles and counting. It has discs, deluxe interior, butterscotch, ac, and a 8 3/4. I think most of original stuff was there and fuctionable. Like hoses, spark plug wire, rad cap, wash resivour... But not something you'd take on 100 mile trip (which the owner does). I think he saved some/alot of the stuff.

I have more hi res pics and the owner car w/car comes to club meetings.



Attached picture 4830933-CopyofPICT0416.JPG
Posted By: AdamR

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 01:12 PM

Quote:

(quote) Has anyone else seen this type of drive train setup in a six cylinder car? (quote)..


Back in 79 my wifes 71 6cyl Dart Swinger Special (low end of line) had air,rim blow wheel,front sway bar,disc brakes and 8 3/4 sure grip.Don't know ratio but on a trip to Canada it made 26mpg.


This is how it ended up.





Rimblow wheels are very common in 71 Darts.
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 02:19 PM

Quote:

The more I see the A Body cars, the better I like them. Yours is certainly a beautiful example of that year car. It sounds like your model also had some unique options. Did you order the car new or find out how it ended up with some of those various options?




Dave,will try to keep this short.The Dart was sitting in the back of a friends junk yard in Oct of 1979.Odometer had 10,004 miles and a 1973 PA inspection sticker,and still had plastic on the seats.He had bought it for his daughter in 1975 and she didn't want it.I bought it and my wife put 100K miles on it until I redid it in 95.At that time I bought a wrecked 68 GTs.Used the motor and transmission.Everything under the hood except the 68 long block was correct 1971 including the one year Thermoquad and air cleaner.Added the correct hood with scoops and cutouts with seals,had it stripped and repainted and added tail stripe.Everty piece of trim including bumpers was replaced with N.O.S. parts even though it didn't need them.Interior is original.Car was flawless.Sat in the garage and had a total of 200 miles in 5yrs.Sold it three years ago to a friend.He kept it 6mo and sold it at Carlisle in 2005.It went to NJ.The new owner had it at Carlisle this past summer with a $18,500 price tag.Don't know if he ever sold it.Here are before and after pictures.Not the best but you can get an idea of the condition.

Attached picture 4831163-Dart1.JPG
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 02:20 PM

Interior

Attached picture 4831167-MVC-001S.JPG
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 04:14 PM

On the topic of Rimblow wheels, have any of you ever seen a (factory installed) Rimblow in a Duster?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 07:14 PM

What a transition! The changes you did made the car look great. The thing that will make this project fun will be the stories and examples that other hobbyist have been involved with. I have always said that the cars are the means that allow us to share experiences and specifics of what the hobby has been to all of us.
Thanks for sharing those pictures. I don't think I would have let that one go! I am looking forward to hearing about the other A Bodies and other odd factory options these cars came with. Chrysler certainly bucked the system (options) when compared to the other automobile manufacturers.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 07:21 PM

Quote:

On the topic of Rimblow wheels, have any of you ever seen a (factory installed) Rimblow in a Duster?




Hi Scott,
I have not seen one but I would imagine someone might have ordered a Duster equipped with one. You have probably worked on hundreds of different Mopar vehicles. Have you seen any (Dusters) with the Rimblow option wheel?
Thanks.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/22/08 07:44 PM

Quote:

On the topic of Rimblow wheels, have any of you ever seen a (factory installed) Rimblow in a Duster?




Does not show up in any factory literature as being available. But only hope would be a limited sales model like a Spring Special or Topper or...

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/imag...Valiant0007.jpg

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/imag...nt_Duster_6.jpg
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/23/08 02:20 AM

This car seems to have alot of the options missing from the fender tag but are documented on the buildsheet. (Disc Brakes Code B41, Rear Defogger Code H31, 3.21:1 Axle Code D53/ Sure Grip Code D91, etc....) The other two cars I have do not have so many items missing form the fender tags. Is this common trait with A Body cars?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/26/08 08:22 PM

Hello Steve,
Here are the photos of the rear package tray I promised. I have never seen any others with these small plastic plugs. When we take it apart I am sure things will unfold as to what purpose they serve. Maybe an A Body feature of some sort? I will let you know what we find. Thanks and have a Happy Thanksgiving!

DW


Posted By: moparo

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/26/08 09:22 PM

The plugs are metal and hold the panel down on the ends. All A-bodys use them, E-bodys have the clip like a door panel under the tray. Are there 2 or 4 on that car? You can see them from inside the trunk.

Is the car p/s? If so is there a 90 deg. fitting on the steering box like a hemi car with p/s?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/26/08 09:57 PM

Thanks Mauro!! There are smaller tabs and larger ones. The smaller ones are in front where I have seen the pieces you referred to on the E Body package trays. The larger ones are position back towards the speaker cutouts and are at least twice the circumference as the smaller ones. Are they also used to hold the tray to the metal underneath? The car is at Dave Stuart's shop so I don't have access to it right now. (I will post a picture of the P/S unit shortly.)
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/26/08 10:37 PM

Quote:

Is the car p/s? If so is there a 90 deg. fitting on the steering box like a hemi car with p/s?





Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/26/08 10:59 PM

WOW!!! That package tray looks new.
Posted By: moparo

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/27/08 02:28 PM

Thanks Dave.

If any A-body experts are reading this what do you know about A-body 1968-1969 /6 with p/s having a 90deg. fitting for the high pressure side. This just a fyi for myself nothing to do with your car Dave.
Posted By: mccannix

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/27/08 04:49 PM

I believe the fitting in question is 2537392 used on 69 A body big block and 69 B Hemi, 70-71 E/B Hemi.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/30/08 10:45 PM

Dave Stuart and I took many pictures today concerning the details inside of the trunk. You were correct on the two different buttons Mauro. They were definitely there to secure the package tray in place. Some of the other findings were also really interesting. For whatever reason, a few of the A Body decals are different than anything I have ever documented (regarding similar 1970 vehicles) in the past. I will post some of the photos that illustrate other characteristics that are sometimes in question. (Paint coverage, primer coverage, dip line, package tray area bare metal, etc…..)
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/30/08 11:33 PM

Quote:

(Paint coverage, primer coverage, dip line, package tray area bare metal, etc…..)




That's the stuff I'm interested...
I would like to see if there's bare metal under the rear tray area in the trunk etc....and if so is it rusted?....by the look of the rest of the pictures of this car look, I would expect these areas to be very well preserved with no signs of surface discolouration or rust.
HOWEVER...if these areas are rusted and not 100% clean bare metal (with the exception of overspray) I expect an indepth description of how you bring these areas back to the "NEW" appearance that you're after, including which type of chemicals/cleaners are used etc...

I'm glad I'm not doing it, only reading about it

If I understand your mission fully, then I would say this project will be way more involved then most people can even imagine.
Posted By: DodgeMaterial

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/30/08 11:39 PM

There is minimal flash rust in those areas. Based on a small test area we believe it will wipe off with a light oil. We haven't started the disassembly process but will have a better feel for it once that stage is completed. I am volunteering Dave W for that back breaking task! Dave.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 11/30/08 11:53 PM

Quote:

I expect an indepth description of how you bring these areas back to the "NEW" appearance that you're after, including which type of chemicals/cleaners are used etc...




Hello Alan,
Dave Stuart and I are currently working with a publishing house on a book that covers (in detail) the specifics of our past projects. Steve Been will also be a major contributor on the “How To” in this documentary. Tom Barcroft will be responsible for most of the pictorials and illustrations throughout the book. This vehicle will be the cornerstone of the various methods we incorporate throughout the processes.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/01/08 12:47 AM

Quote:

The plugs are metal and hold the panel down on the ends. All A-bodys use them,




Just saw a 68 Dart yesterday with original package tray and with the plugs.

BTW is was an LA build car no undercoating with underside black primer. Zero rust car and the primer color was pretty appearent.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/01/08 12:57 AM

Quote:

Hello Steve,
Here are the photos of the rear package tray I promised. I have never seen any others with these small plastic plugs. When we take it apart I am sure things will unfold as to what purpose they serve. Maybe an A Body feature of some sort? I will let you know what we find. Thanks and have a Happy Thanksgiving!

DW
..




Thanks.

Did you notice any edging on the edges of the package tray near the sail panel?

Happy holidays.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/01/08 01:02 AM

Yes, there is a vinyl stitched edging on each side of the package tray. I have seen this with other vehicles but it is usually covered by the armrest interior panels. I will get a picture of that detail as we start to take things apart. Thanks Mr. S! Take care.
Posted By: MattMPA

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/01/08 02:30 AM

While I don't have a picture of that button, my car had...and still has those buttons going through the package tray.

My car belonged to my Grandmother and only had the wiper motor replaced...everything else was original. So, knowing how it should be was easy.

I had to replace the package tray...I'd love to find a good repro. Dave...do I remember that you are doing those?
Posted By: AdamR

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/01/08 02:40 AM

My 71 Scamp had the buttons holding the tray in place. I believe I still have the buttons some place. I know they never went back in the car when I replaced the tray.

Also, The package tray had vinyl around the edge.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/01/08 03:10 AM

Here's a package tray in that 68 Dart 2 door hardtop at the swap meet today. Rear factory defrost car. I don't see the small button near the seat back. Unless it's in the center in the middle of that stain.

Attached picture 4849790-68DartPackageTrayButtonAndDefog.JPG
Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/01/08 04:35 AM

Quote:

I believe the fitting in question is 2537392 used on 69 A body big block and 69 B Hemi, 70-71 E/B Hemi.




Yep, that is the correct fitting for the big block A-Bodies, it came on no other A-Body AFAIK.

Dave, looks like a fun project, can't wait to see it. I have parted out well over 300 A-Bodies in my life, so if you need to bounce anything off me, please do so!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/01/08 06:03 PM

Quote:


That's the stuff I'm interested...




Here you go Alan! After searching across the country for Mopar Survivor candidates, this one was certainly the best we came across. As you can see there is almost no rust even on the bare metal surfaces. I will start to post the paint and thickness of (paint) material in a few days. Average thickness is 2.4 - 2.5 mil. The paint on this car doesn't have a noticeable scratch or door ding showing anywhere on the body panels. These are the "before" pictures that show the car exactly how we received it. Let me know what you think!





Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/01/08 07:26 PM

Neat car and photos.
Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/02/08 12:55 AM

Dave,
your car is unreal! It looks like a true time capsule much like the Z28 in the other thread
but IMO even better. I am having a little trouble with the mileage on the Z28 with only 1100 miles.
The interior carpeting shows signs of more wear than just 1100 miles. From the pictures you posted Dave,
your 10,000 mile car is in better shape. Goes to show how one survivor will survive compared to another.
There are many factors for this. Both cars are awesome but I think the Dart has survived better.
How about some pictures of the interior?
Jules
Posted By: 340wedge

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/02/08 02:32 AM

Looks like Ma Mopar was stingy with the paint on the wheel well housing
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/02/08 07:44 PM

Quote:

Dave,
your car is unreal! It looks like a true time capsule much like the Z28 in the other thread
but IMO even better. I am having a little trouble with the mileage on the Z28 with only 1100 miles.
The interior carpeting shows signs of more wear than just 1100 miles. From the pictures you posted Dave,
your 10,000 mile car is in better shape. Goes to show how one survivor will survive compared to another.
Both cars are awesome but I think the Dart has survived better.
How about some pictures of the interior?
Jules





Hi Jules,
Here are a couple of comparison pictures from the Camaro you mentioned. These photos were taken the day we picked up the car. The interior really almost looks brand new. The carpet still has the gloss sheen as if shoes had never touched it. (Not a stain or wear pattern anywhere.) I also included a picture comparing one of the decals off of that car and our reproductions. I have had the pleasure of working with and supplying some of the guys on that forum. They are also an enthusiastic group of car guys!
Thanks for your comments Mr. J!



Posted By: Troy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/03/08 10:12 PM



Are we sure that nobody has been in there??

I'm questioning the wire and paint in the lower, right corner.....

Attached picture 4855402-group2.jpg
Posted By: HPMike

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/04/08 12:27 AM

Here are some pictures of a mint 25K mile '67 Impala SS396 I just picked up. Note original factory rubber floormat and original carpet. I agree with the others that black can look poor in photos. Disregard the leather wrapped steering wheel cover.

MB

Attached picture 4855629-impalaSS008(Medium).jpg
Posted By: HPMike

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/04/08 12:29 AM

Interior shot of unpainted e-brake unit.

Attached picture 4855633-impalaSS003(Medium).jpg
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/04/08 01:15 AM

Quote:



Are we sure that nobody has been in there??

I'm questioning the wire and paint in the lower, right corner.....




I'm with Troy on this one. On the X bracing it looks as if someone has spray painted it flat black. It's quite obivious that they painted over the wire when it was in place and there appears to be over spray on the trunk divider panel...

My only thoughts is that someone...
THREE CHOICES
1)Assembly Plant
2)Dealership
3)Original owner

...noticed the large X braces were mostly bare metal and decided to do a quick fix to prevent rust.
Posted By: CrAzYMoPaRGuY

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/04/08 02:11 AM

Quote:



Are we sure that nobody has been in there??

I'm questioning the wire and paint in the lower, right corner.....




Yeah, something is odd there if it is supposed to be 100% factory original.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/04/08 04:21 AM

Hey Mr. T,
How are things in sunny California? Hope you are doing well. I need to call you and catch up on the pasts couple of months.
Like many survivors, there will be things that are discovered and evaluated along the way that will obviously not be evident until they are found. Every survivor has it’s own past and story to accompany it. Take the Z28 Camaro in another thread. You have those who think it looks like a time capsule and the best survivor they have seen. Oddly enough they don’t seem to question the characteristics that make it look more like a car having 15 or 20,000 miles.
We don’t have an answer for the wire along the brace but (on the rear driver’s side area) the trunk floor has signs of metallic blue paint underneath the bubbled, baked black paint. Dave Stuart surmised that the factory started to incorrectly paint with that color and came back with the black once they discovered that the wrong hue was being applied. There are no repairs so it does not make any sense as to why there would be a touch up on that cross brace. We have checked all body panels and the paint is consistent throughout the car. These pictures depict exactly the way we found things. (Some photos do distort the color and real appearance of the parts on the car.) We have not cleaned or started to disassemble anything.
Will there be other areas of discovery that we cannot see or detect by simply looking it over? Maybe, possibly…who knows? One thing is for sure, I don’t think we could have found a better candidate for the project we have embarked on! Besides Troy, at least now there will be more involved that just a wash and a wax. We might actually have to replace a wire! Oh well…..there goes the project.
Posted By: RestoRick

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/04/08 01:46 PM

I've found the different color on the underlying paint in a trunk several times before.
I don't know the gun handling procedures they used regarding different colors, but I've wondered if they "sprayed out" a previous color in the trunk.
Also, were cars painted the same color done in batches? Or did they actually have guns for each color?... seems unlikely.

I've also seen a stripe of a contrasting color on the sail panel of a vinyl roof car. (Again, an underlying coat.) This one I had theorized could've been a reminder or sort of a "stop sign" to the painter not to paint the roof.
Interesting stuff that might not of been documented procedure or at least not I've seen in what I've looked at.

Ref: 1100mi. Camaro... I'd like to see that car after a couple days of careful cleanup. It looks like the car sat for years with a window or two open. If you look at the buckle tongue you can see how thick the dust is where it appears to have been disturbed. The pedals don't look worn as much as dirty... a short trip with muddy shoes?
Or was a burned out electric drill found on the bench next to the car?
We're all just speculating looking at pictures...
It would be a wonderful car to check out in person!

Rick
Posted By: moparo

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/04/08 02:03 PM

I doubt that behind the seat area was painted by anyone else other than the factory. The trunk in that car is so poorly covered with painted it was probably noticed by QC and the just went in a sprayed with a spray bomb or a low pressure gun.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/04/08 02:14 PM

Hi Rick,
Thank you for interjecting your experiences with paint procedures and findings on these cars. This was new to me and definitely un-chartered territory in the world of Mopars. I know a gentlemen that painted the Corvettes when the plant was in St. Louis and he talked about this type of thing as a normal occurrence on those cars. Concerning the Camaro, I was not in any way trying to dismiss or critique the condition of the vehicle. I personally would never comment on specifics or judge a car unless I had seen it in person.
I did spend yesterday afternoon with a GM rep who personally knows Charlie and is familiar with the details concerning that vehicle. He said the thing that really hurts the car is the undercoat job that was done after it left the factory. Apparently holes were drilled in body panels to gain access for the undercoat and areas were covered that concealed many of the factory markings. My foundations started with GM and I really love and appreciate the F Body cars. Not too long ago I sold my 1969 Z/28 Camaro that had only 5246 original miles. It was also a nice example of a survivor car. I am starting to regret ever letting it go. Oh well!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/04/08 02:58 PM

Quote:

I doubt that behind the seat area was painted by anyone else other than the factory. The trunk in that car is so poorly covered with painted it was probably noticed by QC and the just went in a sprayed with a spray bomb or a low pressure gun.




Hi Mauro,
Your assessment might be correct. We don’t know why this was done (paint) but it doesn’t make sense that someone would spray just the brace and nothing else. The trunk has a lot of bare metal that has little to no flash rust at all. Whatever environment the braces were exposed to, the same conditions would apply or be similar for the other surrounding metal. I can't imagine that the previous owner(s) would have sprayed the braces but left so many other exposed bare metal areas if they were concerned with rust. The only flash rust is where the defogger “leaked” or blew moist air when it was turned on. You can see the pattern in the pictures where the air flow appears to have bypassed the mounting surface of the unit. The moisture/condensation probably accumulated in the corrugated duct work and blew out when the defogger motor was turned on. The braces are not close to the air flow pattern of the rear defogger so there would be no reason for that particular area to be rusted any more than the other (surrounding) bare metal areas.
Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/04/08 05:34 PM

were the wire and whatever the bracing is supporting (with the overspray) in the car at the time of painting?
Posted By: rocketresto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/04/08 05:49 PM

Chrysler's paint proscess standard says waste paint mixed to a dark shade can be used in place of the sealer coat on interior and under hood areas. One of the last cars I striped had a dark blue/gray metallic under the body color in the engine bay.
Mike
Posted By: moparo

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/04/08 06:53 PM

wire no
Brace yes
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/09/08 11:48 PM

The original headlights in this car are Tung Sol. (TS) Has anyone else seen this type of light used in the 1970 model vehicles? Most that we have documented are the General Electric style.

Posted By: johntpr

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/10/08 02:07 AM

Did you see this? Lots of good reference here.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodge-Dar...5fCarsQ5fTrucks
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/12/08 11:24 PM

A few more details..... Notice how the original grill retainers have a recessed crater in the center. The NOS versions have a smooth dome without any inclusions or divots in the middle.



Posted By: Anonymous

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/13/08 12:06 AM

Why the different color clamps? Must be hard to stay on TOP of all these details.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/13/08 12:16 AM

Quote:

Why the different color clamps? Must be hard to stay on TOP of all these details.



Quick size identification....
It's not hard to stay on top of the details, WE just let Dave do all the work
Posted By: 340wedge

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/13/08 04:05 AM

Can i get the measurements of that sheetmetal peice that goes behind the heater hoses on the firewall. (it's the square peice held in with the sheetmetal screw) My car is missing that part, It looks easy enough to make. Thanks
Posted By: Snoopy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/13/08 05:33 AM

Quote:

The original headlights in this car are Tung Sol. (TS) Has anyone else seen this type of light used in the 1970 model vehicles? Most that we have documented are the General Electric style.




It would be interesting to look at the back of the bulbs and checkout the date codes. Also check to see if they are 6012 or 6014 bulbs.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/13/08 05:43 AM

I will try and get the measurements this weekend. I wonder how many cars are missing this part because it was discarded the first time the hoses or heater core was changed? After we take things apart I will take pictures showing the hole sizes and document the thickness of the metal. It might be a good part to reproduce for others who are missing this piece.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/13/08 05:51 AM

Quote:

Also check to see if they are 6012 or 6014 bulbs.




Hi Snoop! I will check that and let you know. What are the differences between the two numbers? Was it a visual or functional variation?
Posted By: 340wedge

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/13/08 02:38 PM

Thank you ECS, I think you could sell alot of them, and they would be a cheap part to manufacture..
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/13/08 06:58 PM

Quote:

Thank you ECS, I think you could sell alot of them, and they would be a cheap part to manufacture..




Thanks Lou! We have made many parts/decals that have never made it on the list of “hot” or best selling items. I will definitely manufacture this piece and even if only a couple of people can benefit from the efforts, I will certainly consider it a success! Is anyone aware of other vehicles that used this small plate? (We will also provide the foam sealing pad that goes behind the part.)
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/13/08 07:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Thank you ECS, I think you could sell alot of them, and they would be a cheap part to manufacture..




Thanks Lou! We have made many parts/decals that have never made it on the list of “hot” or best selling items. I will definitely manufacture this piece and even if only a couple of people can benefit from the efforts, I will certainly consider it a success! Is anyone aware of other vehicles that used this small plate? (We will also provide the foam sealing pad that goes behind the part.)




Most non A/C a-bodies 67 to at least 72. Could earlier and later applications.

I didn't think they were hard to find. If I go to the junk yard today I'll see if the two cars have theirs left from last week.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/13/08 11:39 PM

Quote:

Most non A/C a-bodies 67 to at least 72.




Thanks Steve. It looks to be a reinforcement plate of some type. The firewall doesn’t appear to be any weaker in that area as compared to other Chrysler vehicles that I have researched. Does anyone know why the A Body cars used this plate but other cars did not?
Posted By: VCODE

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/13/08 11:44 PM

Hi Dave,
Just thinking,does the screw get screwed into the firewall or does it screw into heater core?
Bob
Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/14/08 12:11 AM

Quote:

(We will also provide the foam sealing pad that goes behind the part.)



Here's a pic of mine, the gasket I mean. This isn't correct is it?

Attached picture 4877332-014.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/14/08 12:27 AM

Quote:

Hi Dave,
Just thinking,does the screw get screwed into the firewall or does it screw into heater core?
Bob




IIRC, one sheet metal screw into the firewall. It's just a cover plate to keep fumes going through the fire wall. No reinforcing that I can remember.

Junkyard fun from last weekend...

Attached picture 4877362-PICT3276b.JPG
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/14/08 01:56 AM

Here's picture I just stumbled across on the web of a 67 Barracuda with that plate taken off.

Attached picture 4877538-7a03_1.jpg
Posted By: RestoRick

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/14/08 02:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Most non A/C a-bodies 67 to at least 72.




Thanks Steve. It looks to be a reinforcement plate of some type. The firewall doesn’t appear to be any weaker in that area as compared to other Chrysler vehicles that I have researched. Does anyone know why the A Body cars used this plate but other cars did not?




B & E body use a "donut" type seal that sandwiches between the firewall and heater box.
A-body boxes don't have a flat surface on the box for a donut seal to seal against.
Why I don't know; perhaps the A-body box design was less costly to manufacture and made the "plate seal" design necessary.

Rick

E-body:


A-body:
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/14/08 05:15 AM

Quote:

B & E body use a "donut" type seal that sandwiches between the firewall and heater box.
A-body boxes don't have a flat surface on the box for a donut seal to seal against.





Hi Rick. Hope you are doing well! The firewall is where the plate is making contact against the thin foam gasket. The plate is actually doing nothing to assist in the sealing capabilities of the hoses. The seal area is provided by the clamps forcing the hose against the flared area of the heater core (outlet) pipes. It appears that the firewall surface could have provided the same “backing surface” as the plate. I have not taken this area apart so maybe I am missing some hidden aspect.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/14/08 05:22 AM

Quote:

It's just a cover plate to keep fumes going through the fire wall. No reinforcing that I can remember.




Hi Steve. I saw your post after reading Ricks. I think that you both hit the nail on the head and it has to do with sealing fumes out of the passenger area. Rick was correct with the seals being on the back side of the other vehicles and the A Bodies inability to have those seals in the same location. Good work guys and thanks for the comments!!!!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/17/08 10:12 PM

These items came with the car and add a little nostalgia to the overall project. The license plate was the original one issued to the car in 1970 and the windshield inspection tag was never applied. The small liquid chain spray can was also a "period" correct detail item that was in the trunk. (Not factory items but still kind of interesting and unique!)




Posted By: mopargem

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 03:29 AM

Now thats too cool! wonder if thats bleach in a can
Posted By: AdamR

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 03:33 AM

Quote:

These items came with the car and add a little nostalgia to the overall project. The license plate was the original one issued to the car in 1970 and the windshield inspection tag was never applied. The small liquid chain spray can was also a "period" correct detail item that was in the trunk. (Not factory items but still kind of interesting and unique!)









wanna sell the plates ? My Dart is a 71 and I can register it with those plates because they are year of manufacture.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 02:38 PM

Quote:

wanna sell the plates ? My Dart is a 71 and I can register it with those plates because they are year of manufacture.




The plate is actually dated for a 1970 registration. The “Dec 71” decal would indicate that the vehicle was current with the state up to that ending date. The car was built April of 1970 so this plate and the Dec 71 sticker would have been issued to show it was DOT certified until the end of the 71 calendar year. I believe that a new 1971 vehicle would have had a decal that referenced the year “72” for it’s first year of registration.
You think the police would even notice if I slapped this plate back on the car and drove around the block a few times?
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 02:53 PM

Dave,I have one question.How does a vehicle get inspected and the sticker not applied ? (if its done legally).
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 03:28 PM

Quote:

Dave,I have one question.How does a vehicle get inspected and the sticker not applied ? (if its done legally).




I have no idea why this sticker came with the paperwork and never found its way on the windshield. In Missouri, the facility that inspects the car puts the decal on the front glass. I have to admit that in years past, I knew the guys that did my inspection and they would “pass” the car and give you the decal and paperwork in an envelope. Again, I don’t know why this one made it through without being stuck in place. Another thing to notice is that the date on the license plate sticker is DEC 71. The car was made in April of 1970. I would have thought that there would be another decal stuck under that one for the remainder of the 1970 year. I think that the DOT agency probably issued the 71 decal and plate to eliminate the redundancy of registering the vehicle, two times in a 14 or 15 month period. I am not familiar with Connecticut’s laws for that particular time so all of this is purely speculation. Someone else might have some insight regarding their guidelines for licensing in those years.
Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 03:57 PM

Quote:

The car was made in April of 1970. I would have thought that there would be another decal stuck under that one for the remainder of the 1970 year. I think that the DOT agency probably issued the 71 decal and plate to eliminate the redundancy of registering the vehicle, two times in a 14 or 15 month period. I am not familiar with Connecticut’s laws for that particular time so all of this is purely speculation. Someone else might have some insight regarding their guidelines for licensing in those years.



Could the previous plates (from a trade in?) been transfered and when they expired new plates were issued? In most States the license plate is a registration not a vehicle safety inspection (to a point). We have E-Check counties now (not back then) that is required before you can register and get the license plate sticker but non E-Check county residents "just pays the money and gets the sticker" no one looks at or inspects their car No yearly or bi-yearly State safety inspection here in Oh! Maybe the same back then it CT????


MikeR
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 04:17 PM

Here is a reproduction PA sticker a friend sent me 6yrs ago.Are they availiable,yes.Would I use it no.In Pa,antique requires no inspection so it could be used with no problem,anything else requires PA inspection plus emissions inspection/check depending on county so it would not be legal.PA stickers are issued to the inspection stations in numerical format and all must be accounted for.If a station loses a sticker,reissues or has one stolen that number must be submitted to the PA Dept Trans.Other states may vary but that is the way it has always been here.Also,the PA sticker has an overlay on the front that must be removed to afix the sticker to the inside glass.

Attached picture 4886782-Sticker.JPG
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 04:18 PM

Back

Attached picture 4886783-Sticker2.JPG
Posted By: screamindriver

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 06:49 PM

I have A set of original 70 roadlamps that have the Tung Sol bulbs... On the inspection stickers.....Here's a site that sells the repo vintage inspection stickers...They're a cool detail item... inspection stickers
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 06:59 PM

Quote:

Could the previous plates (from a trade in?) been transfered and when they expired new plates were issued?




Hi Mike! I don't have any specific information concerning these items that came with the car. Dave Stuart found these things in a folder that came with the vehicle. (Richard didn't mention them so we didn't know they were under the front seat.) We found them after we got the car back home. I wasn't aware of the small yellow windshield sticker until I took a picture of it just this past Monday! The original owner of this car was a woman named Anne who was 96 years old. She passed away a few years ago and that was the first time the vehicle had changed hands since she purchased it in 1970. I don't think there was another license plate (prior to this one) that was issued when the car was new.
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 07:03 PM

Dave,I'm a little confused.The inspection sticker number in your picture is the same number as the reproduction Connecticut sticker on the above web site.Please explain.

http://inspectionsticker.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=59
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 07:50 PM

Excellent research Bill! We had no idea that label was a reproduction. I didn't even know there was anyone/place who was allowed to make those. (I guess we need to check and see if the license plate and tag are actually original.) We won't be using that item in our portfolio of original paperwork! Thanks for the heads up and link.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 08:06 PM

Quote:

Dave,I'm a little confused.The inspection sticker number in your picture is the same number as the reproduction Connecticut sticker on the above web site.Please explain.






Wow...What are the chances of that? Maybe they all had the same number? We don't have those in Ontario, so I wouldn't have a clue.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 08:57 PM

I would imagine they make those labels with the same numbers. If they manufactured them with an individual number they would be custom to each application and would probably cost more than what they are being sold for. It is not a disappointment finding out that this is a repo decal. It certainly had no contribution in the overall theme of our project. I assume that one of the prior owners considered using the sticker to keep the nostalgic look with the car. While neat little items (if they were original issue) they cannot be used for an OE restoration.
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 09:11 PM

Just curious,how many prior owners has this vehicle had ?
Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 10:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Dave,I'm a little confused.The inspection sticker number in your picture is the same number as the reproduction Connecticut sticker on the above web site.Please explain.






Wow...What are the chances of that? Maybe they all had the same number? We don't have those in Ontario, so I wouldn't have a clue.




Go to the sticker site...EVERY (CT, FL, PA, OH,.....) sticker has the 307429 number on it or a slight variation I guess that's how you can spot a reproduction from that source
Posted By: 62maxwgn

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/18/08 11:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Dave,I'm a little confused.The inspection sticker number in your picture is the same number as the reproduction Connecticut sticker on the above web site.Please explain.






Wow...What are the chances of that? Maybe they all had the same number? We don't have those in Ontario, so I wouldn't have a clue.




Go to the sticker site...EVERY (CT, FL, PA, OH,.....) sticker has the 307429 number on it or a slight variation I guess that's how you can spot a reproduction from that source





Not mine!

Attached picture 4887461-Sticker.JPG
Posted By: 440800

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 12:01 AM

Quote:

Dave,I'm a little confused.The inspection sticker number in your picture is the same number as the reproduction Connecticut sticker on the above web site.Please explain.

http://inspectionsticker.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=59




Thanks goodness for guys like you.


Can you imagine if that was displayed as "authentic" and someone came up with a reproduction sticker identical numbers and all.

You just saved somebody from a big embarrasment.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 12:40 AM

Quote:


Thanks goodness for guys like you.


Can you imagine if that was displayed as "authentic" and someone came up with a reproduction sticker identical numbers and all.

You just saved somebody from a big embarrasment.





We never would have brought this decal to be part of the OE judging at the Nationals. Other than (me) being wrong by thinking it originally came with the car, there was no importance or emphasis regarding it's merit whatsoever. I would imagine that this reproduction is like many others that would require various improvements in order to be representative of the original. I have yet to find another decal manufacturer who makes their products look exactly like the factory versions. I only say that because we have spent thousands of hours (literally) scanning and creating first generation reproductions from original formatted examples. It takes ten times the effort to do it exact, which is why most reproductions ARE easily detected from the real ones. I had never seen this particular decal so there was nothing to compare it to!

(By the way 62maxwgn.....the car was owned by the original owner, sold to a couple of different collectors and then purchased by me. Thanks again!)
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 01:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Dave,I'm a little confused.The inspection sticker number in your picture is the same number as the reproduction Connecticut sticker on the above web site.Please explain.

http://inspectionsticker.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=59




Thanks goodness for guys like you.


Can you imagine if that was displayed as "authentic" and someone came up with a reproduction sticker identical numbers and all.

You just saved somebody from a big embarrasment.





and somebody that's 'in the business' no less! Invaluable catch--I agree!
Posted By: 1MYTGTX

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 01:56 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Dave,I'm a little confused.The inspection sticker number in your picture is the same number as the reproduction Connecticut sticker on the above web site.Please explain.






Wow...What are the chances of that? Maybe they all had the same number? We don't have those in Ontario, so I wouldn't have a clue.




Go to the sticker site...EVERY (CT, FL, PA, OH,.....) sticker has the 307429 number on it or a slight variation I guess that's how you can spot a reproduction from that source





Not mine!



You must have paid the extra 10 bucks
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 02:11 AM

Quote:

and somebody that's 'in the business' no less!




While I appreciate you assuming that ECS should know every decal in the automotive industry, we only reproduce the Chrysler, Ford and General Motors decals that were used by the manufacturers to build their vehicles. We have never delved into the "United States Windshield Inspection Label " market so we do not claim to be experts in that particular area. With the millions of decals relating to the automotive industry, a company can only cover so much ground. Thank you again however, for the assumed/expressed confidence in our market knowledge!
Posted By: I go fast

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 02:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Dave,I'm a little confused.The inspection sticker number in your picture is the same number as the reproduction Connecticut sticker on the above web site.Please explain.

http://inspectionsticker.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7&products_id=59




Thanks goodness for guys like you.


Can you imagine if that was displayed as "authentic" and someone came up with a reproduction sticker identical numbers and all.

You just saved somebody from a big embarrasment.





and somebody that's 'in the business' no less! Invaluable catch--I agree!




Could be

Attached picture 4887935-92a433e2988c08ca.jpg
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 03:00 AM

Hey….its my good buddy packwagon! Just to help further clarify things for you and pacman, ECS does not specialize in Halloween Decals, Static Cling Thanksgiving Turkeys for sliding glass doors or Christmas Cookie Stickers. It seems you guys have a little difficulty with the facts so I thought I would spell things out a bit clearer. Just out of curiosity.....
Posted By: Big Bad Bee

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 05:00 AM

Hey Dave Walden,

I have been enjoying the coverage of your challenger in Mopar Action Feb 09 issue. Thanks for sharing your projects and knowledge so freely with us on moparts. I'm not a resto nut but really enjoy the facts projects like this bring to light. It makes my hobby all that much more interesting.

On the topic of this black 4 door, I have noticed in your photos and also seeing other very low mileage survivors a relative amount of deterioration in different coatings/platings including nickel-cadmium, zinc(?)on small components, engine and body paint popping off of parts, bolt heads, fender tags etc. This in addition to bare metal areas that get surface rust. The undersides of the trunk for example.

Will your resto of these parts be done with methods that preserve the finishes better than factory but still look correct or will this car only look new as long as it originally did, given of course that it will obviously live a very protected, climate controlled life?

Keep up the good work!

Lindy
Posted By: HPMike

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 01:56 PM

Here is an original (old) one on my Challenger. It is in perfect condition. Not that I ever would do it, but I often wondered what one of the state inspectors would say if I bothered to roll up and get it inspected 35 years later..

Attached picture 4888552-inspectionhemicar001(Medium).jpg
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 02:49 PM

Quote:

It seems you guys have a little difficulty with the facts




The "facts" ..... This thread is a HOOT!!!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 03:24 PM

It appears you missed your little yellow bus this morning. Oh well....
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 03:26 PM

Quote:

Will your resto of these parts be done with methods that preserve the finishes better than factory but still look correct or will this car only look new as long as it originally did, given of course that it will obviously live a very protected, climate controlled life?




Hello Lindy,
I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to express your sentiments regarding the work we do. I realize that these projects represent only a limited sector of the hobby but if anyone has benefited from the efforts, I feel the outcome has been a success.
This focus of this vehicle will be no different than the Challenger, other than no reproduction parts will be used in the process. This car will hopefully represent a vehicle that looks just like it rolled off the assembly line and straight into a Plymouth dealership. (The appearance of the parts should look the same as the day they left the factory.) We will not enhance any details or aspects of the components that are used in the car‘s restoration. After the OE judging, the car will get protective oil on all the bare metal parts to keep them from rusting over time. I have had many car guys come out to take pictures of the finished vehicles and it makes it a little easier to see the results when things remain in pristine condition. Again, thank you very much for taking the time to come here and offer your input on this subject. Have a Merry Christmas and a Safe/Happy New Year!!
Posted By: Big Bad Bee

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/19/08 08:08 PM

Thanks for answering Dave. I look forward to your future posts. Merry Christmas back at you. Don't let the keyboard commandos get you down.
Posted By: CrazyD

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/22/08 08:11 PM

Is the trunk striker painted or cad plated?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/23/08 04:23 AM

It is painted. Did they come both ways on these cars? I will get a picture and post it tomorrow!
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/23/08 04:39 AM

Quote:

It is painted. Did they come both ways on these cars? I will get a picture and post it tomorrow!




68 A-bodies are painted.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/23/08 11:23 PM

Here you go!

Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/29/08 10:17 PM

Quote:

I've found the different color on the underlying paint in a trunk several times before.






Here is an example of the contrasting colors we found in the trunk area. It is a blue metallic hue. Would anyone have accepted this type of "quality" when they picked up the car from the dealership? Nice paint job!


Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/29/08 10:23 PM

We have started some of the interior dis assembly. Check out the condition of the seats. The Pentastar and part number for the material is stamped on the back side. Even the hog rings are in "like new" condition. No Rust!!




Posted By: 300by500

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/30/08 03:22 AM

Dave,

I'm not a restoration guy, but I appreciate the patience, time, and work that go into them.

I was fortunate enough to see the Challenger come out of the trailer (wearing the tire boots) and be driven onto the lift at the Nats. The car was so perfect that my brother, my dad-in-law, and myself all just stood there in awe.

The amount of work poured into every detail of that car had to have been phenomenal. I can't even imagine what it would take to achieve that level of technical restoration.

My hat is off to you, best of luck on the A-body...looking forward to seeing it.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/30/08 06:24 AM

Quote:

I was fortunate enough to see the Challenger come out of the trailer (wearing the tire boots) and be driven onto the lift at the Nats.....my brother, my dad-in-law, and myself....




Hi Brion! Thanks for the post. I hope I had the pleasure of talking to you guys sometime during the day when it was being judged. Tonight was the first time since the Nationals that I went into the garage to mess with the car and get things ready for a photo shoot. (It had to come off the lift.) It brought back some neat memories looking at all the different items that went into completing the project.
This Valiant is going in the air tomorrow to have the underside completely photographed and documented. Since we got the car home in mid October, I can’t begin to tell you how much additional information that we have accumulated with respect to how the factory built these cars. While we were accurate with the procedures we used on the Challenger, to actually document an unmolested original car is priceless. Taking it apart is as exciting as opening up Christmas presents as a kid in the 70‘s. I am going to go out on a limb here by saying that this Valiant project will make the Challenger one look amateurish when completed. They say that a car can only be original once. I promise that when this car rolls out in 2010, we will have folks questioning that particular concept. This one will be indistinguishable from a 1970 brand new, Hamtramck Plymouth vehicle.
Posted By: Troy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/30/08 04:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I've found the different color on the underlying paint in a trunk several times before.






Here is an example of the contrasting colors we found in the trunk area. It is a blue metallic hue. Would anyone have accepted this type of "quality" when they picked up the car from the dealership? Nice paint job!







This could explain the reason for the rattle can black paint on the under the speaker shelf. Maybe they didn't "accepted this type of "quality" when they picked up the car from the dealership?" Maybe the dealer or the original owner did it because the blue paint was just a little too much.

I'm still trying to figure out how that area was not painted and how that pattern was left......after saying that I think I just figured it out.


The answer lies in the direction of the runs and the directions of the drips.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/30/08 05:35 PM

Dave
You're certainly setting the standards very high for yourself and your team this time around.

In an earlier picture you showed the trunk weather-strip with a considerable amount of glue squeeze out. In your opinion would it meet your "goal" leaving areas like this untouched?
Would the glue not dis-colour and dry out over the past 38 years?
To achieve a "brand new" 1970 look, should this glue squeeze out be replaced with new fresher looking glue?

In today's standards of OE judging when someone restores a car and copies squeeze out and other messy attributes of their original car, at least the glue looks new and matches the entire feel of the project.

To get your latest project away from the "cleaned up survivor" status and into the "brand new car" status, areas like this glue squeeze out will have to be address in my opinion, but....

I think you would be crazy to try and remove the weather-strip and try to re-glue it.....

This question can be asked about many areas of the car.


What are your thoughts on this particular area of your project????

Alan
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/30/08 05:55 PM

Hi Mr. A,
We are not going to restore the recessed gully (weatherstrip area) of the trunk. The paint is like new in that particular area so there is no reason to mess with it. The trick will be to have a seamless blend with the new paint and the original finish. The glue cleaned up and looks very close to the way it probably did when it was applied. We used a solvent that removed the oxidized top surface of the glue. The results turned out undetectable. I will get a picture of that area and post it here as soon as it is finished. Thanks!
Posted By: Troy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/30/08 06:08 PM

Depending on you thoughts of how this car is going to be done....you would have to replace the trunk seal. With the trunk being closed for forty years there will be signs of collapsing and wear so it will not look new.

Chrysler used yellow weatherstrip adhesive back then so that would be a no-brainer to duplicate.

Just my

Hi Dave, I posted this while you were posting your reply...please don't read it the wrong way. With that being said what are you going to do with the weatherstrip??



Attached picture 4910756-TAREFPIC030(Medium).jpg
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/30/08 06:56 PM

Hi Troy,
You would have to see the weatherstrip in person. It looks new and we haven't even tried to make it look "better". It still has a bit of a sheen and does not appear to have collapse whatsoever. The design is different than the E Body cars. It is a block style design so it doesn't have a recessed area to smash or collapse. Not a crack, nick or split anywhere. It also has a part number molded in the surface that repeats about every 14-16 inches. I have never seen another sample with the same appearance as this one.


Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/30/08 07:25 PM

Thanks Mr. D Interesting stuff for sure
Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/30/08 11:31 PM

I've found very similar color blue paint on my Plum Crazy 70 Dart.
Posted By: DodgeMaterial

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/31/08 04:08 PM

Dave - perhaps the black paint "blew off" of those trunk hinges! Tom Barcroft MADE me do it! Dave S.

Attached picture 4912597-goingfast.jpg
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/31/08 04:58 PM

Quote:

Dave - perhaps the black paint "blew off" of those trunk hinges! Tom Barcroft MADE me do it! Dave S.




Mr.D
The expression on your face says it all! Either you are immune to the extreme G Force of a slant six under hard acceleration or the experience wasn't exciting enough to generate even a small grin. Did you boil those tires down to the core? If so, we will need to find some NOS replacements. Maybe we can discuss this over lunch.

(Dave, add some smoke on the other side. It has a 323 posi!)
Posted By: DodgeMaterial

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/31/08 05:08 PM

There were no "G Forces" due to lack of traction (hince my lack of expression.) I was able to get some excitement on the skid pad - where it manaaged .4 g's in lateral acceleration tests! Those 38 year old Goodyears (6.95x14 Polyester Cord) tires really do the trick for keeping you sedate - except in emergency manuvers... you should have seen my face after top speed trials - she can do 90! Dave
Posted By: DodgeMaterial

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/31/08 05:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Dave - perhaps the black paint "blew off" of those trunk hinges! Tom Barcroft MADE me do it! Dave S.




Mr.D
The expression on your face says it all! Either you are immune to the extreme G Force of a slant six under hard acceleration or the experience wasn't exciting enough to generate even a small grin. Did you boil those tires down to the core? If so, we will need to find some NOS replacements. Maybe we can discuss this over lunch.

(Dave, add some smoke on the other side. It has a 323 posi!)





Tom had edited out most of the smoke so you wouldn't be as upset with us for thrashing your car and the original tires... but hey at least they don't have flat spots anymore! Is this better? Dave

Attached picture 4912807-goingfaster4.JPG
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/31/08 05:31 PM

WOW! That thing is fast. Is that daylight that I see underneath the front driver side tire?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 12/31/08 10:58 PM




Quote:

Tom Barcroft




Thanks for the updates Dave! A few guys have asked who Tom Barcroft is and his association with this project. He is a retired Chrysler executive who will be involved with the restoration of this vehicle. Not only does he work on these cars, he is also a photographer and will be the main guy documenting each and every part of the vehicle. (Above are a couple of his photos.) We will be publishing a book on the restoration steps regarding an OE type vehicle and Tom will be responsible for the photographs throughout the book. I am grateful to have his assistance and involvement with this project!
Posted By: 300by500

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/01/09 12:52 AM

Hi Dave. You've got mail! Brion
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/01/09 02:11 AM

That black Cuda in that picture looks "over restored" if you ask me

Cheers Dave and a HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE

Alan
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/01/09 04:41 AM

Thanks Alan!!!! A Safe and Happy New Year to you and the rest of the group here at Moparts.

DW
Posted By: DodgeMaterial

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/06/09 12:58 AM

Last week we put this car in the air and took a lot of "before" pictures. Many of the factory markings are still very noticible. We found the outer tie-rods, pitman arm and idler arm were marked with a cream or off-white color paint (inspection marks), has anyone seen this color before? If so was it Cream (like DY2/DY3) or White? Very hard to tell and with grease covering them for many years it mayhave yellowed.

Dave W will post some picures soon. Thanks - Dave
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/06/09 04:53 PM

Hi Dave. Here are some photos from the day we had the car in the air and spent hours going over everything. (Thanks again for all your help with shuffling the car back and forth.) Tom has the pictures of the tie rods with the cream color inspection marks. Here are a couple that I had taken showing the "arrow" and the letter "I" underneath it. Remember how both sides were marked the same way? Also shown are the yellow paint marks on the torsion bars. The undercoating was obviously applied after they were in place and marked.



Posted By: Sixpackman340

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/06/09 11:40 PM

great work, i just love looking over all these original pictures seeing things that I can incorporate into my cars. I have a 69 barrcuda formula S that was found in a barn, original owner and I just love looking over the original aspects of this car, great work, keep it up.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/07/09 03:17 AM

Thank you Justin!!!! Your response is EXACTLY the type of input that makes this project worth while. There have been many incorrect assessments as to the purpose of this venture. The true reason is very simple. For years the OE judging has been perceived as a forum where only the big horsepower, high dollar cars were welcome. There seems to be a large gap separating those who own a Hemi or 440 Six Pack vehicle and the “rest” of the cars that make up the market. The fact is that the bread and butter of this hobby was established by the cars that are constantly overlooked and/or ignored. What better vehicle than a slant six, four door Valiant to change the outlook and attitude of the OE program? I hope that this project will open the door for many who feel that they cannot be part of this program due to lack of cubic inches or perceived importance as related to certain models. This hobby belongs to each and every person that takes the time to help preserve it’s past. Regardless of the area of interest or type of vehicle, it takes ALL our members to keep things moving in a positive direction!!
Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/07/09 03:27 AM

Could not have been better said. Excellent Dave.
Jules
Posted By: Dave Watt

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/07/09 03:33 AM

Interesting stuff so far, can't wait to watch the progress.

I didn't think anyone would want to restore a 4door Valiant......


Attached picture 4928949-600_danville_2006_024.jpg
Posted By: Iceman01

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/07/09 05:27 AM

Quote:

Thank you Justin!!!! Your response is EXACTLY the type of input that makes this project worth while. There have been many incorrect assessments as to the purpose of this venture. The true reason is very simple. For years the OE judging has been perceived as a forum where only the big horsepower, high dollar cars were welcome. There seems to be a large gap separating those who own a Hemi or 440 Six Pack vehicle and the “rest” of the cars that make up the market. The fact is that the bread and butter of this hobby was established by the cars that are constantly overlooked and/or ignored. What better vehicle than a slant six, four door Valiant to change the outlook and attitude of the OE program? I hope that this project will open the door for many who feel that they cannot be part of this program due to lack of cubic inches or perceived importance as related to certain models. This hobby belongs to each and every person that takes the time to help preserve it’s past. Regardless of the area of interest or type of vehicle, it takes ALL our members to keep things moving in a positive direction!!




Dave, out of everything you've ever written on here, this is the best example of what sets you apart. I think everyone can applaud those motives.
Posted By: GY371GTX

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/09/09 07:04 PM

Dave is a true 'Car-cheologist' whithout which the hobby would lack valuable information, insight and products. I feel fortunate to have come across ECS and Dave. When someone pushes the envelope in any area, whether it be science, technology or a hobby, we all benefit from their work and discoveries. Thanks for your effort and attention to detail in creating your products. My vehicle looks that much better for it and my future projects will too.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/09/09 11:52 PM

Thanks for the guys! Here are a few pictures showing what we found when the seats were removed. You can see the density of the carpet and the floor pans of the car. Also notice the seat "flap" of vinyl that was made to cover the attaching clips. I don't remember seeing this feature on the Challenger rear seat when we disassembled it. Has anyone else seen this vinyl flap feature in vehicles other than an A Body?




Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/14/09 12:43 AM

Here are a few interesting pictures of features that are a bit odd . Notice the different screws that hold the washer bottle to the inner fender. The ground wire side uses a special washer. The carpet protrudes past the floor trim. It should have been cut to fit behind the aluminum trim plate.




Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/14/09 12:48 AM

Here are a few others....




Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/14/09 12:57 AM

Dave can I/we get another pic of the ground wire screw? Thanks
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/14/09 12:58 AM

Will the rust in the upper cowl area be addressed?

Is that a crack in the steering column cover and will it be replaced? It's quite possible the crack has been there since day one.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/14/09 03:44 AM

Quote:

Dave can I/we get another pic of the ground wire screw? Thanks




Hi Ron....I will remove it and take a close up photo. I wonder if this was meant to be used for the ground wire screws in most vehicles?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/14/09 03:47 AM

Quote:

Will the rust in the upper cowl area be addressed?

Is that a crack in the steering column cover and will it be replaced? It's quite possible the crack has been there since day one.




Hi Alan…..the surface is not “rusted” as it appears to be in the picture. For some reason the flash makes everything look ten times worse than it actually is. (The carpet looks excellent but when we took pictures with a flash, the photos showed stained areas that could not be seen in normal light!) That stuff almost wipes completely away with some light machine oil and a soft cloth. I can guarantee that there will be ZERO surface oxidation on any of the bare metal parts when we are finished. The mark on the steering column part was a scuff and not a crack. It should be relatively easy to “erase”.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/17/09 12:27 AM

A few more under dash shots....




Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/24/09 12:10 AM

Quote:

Dave can I/we get another pic of the ground wire screw? Thanks




Here you go Mr. R
This is DEFINITELY the original screw that was used because the undercoating was still on the treads as we removed it. It looks like it was made for this application and not a piece that was inserted because they ran out of the "correct" version screw. The washer head is separate and covers the entire ground wire metal grommet.



Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/24/09 05:15 AM

I've found something simular holding carpet down under the rear seat of a 1974 E Body
Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/24/09 01:40 PM

Thanks for the pic Dave.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/29/09 01:28 AM

Check out the "leftovers" that we found UNDER the carpet. The red cap probably sealed one of the inlet/outlet tubes for the heater core. You can see where the imprint remained in the jute pad after all those years. The other photo shows a carpet tag from a vendor that I did not know supplied carpeting to Chrysler. It is the third supplier that I have documented in all of our research.



Posted By: rayztoy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/29/09 01:43 AM

Very nice Dave! Thanks!
Posted By: 300by500

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 01/29/09 03:09 AM

What?! No Coke bottle with marbles hidden in the door?

Nice work and documentation! Keep it up!
Posted By: hotairballoonpilot

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/03/09 04:34 AM

So the challenger had aloy of NOS stuff including tires. Where are you going to find things like that for a 4dr a-body? Most NOS stuff is the "big money" type like six pac & hemi stuff. Right? not trying to open a can of worms just wondering?

thanks
Posted By: Mike Mancini

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/03/09 04:43 AM

Quote:

So the challenger had aloy of NOS stuff including tires. Where are you going to find things like that for a 4dr a-body? Most NOS stuff is the "big money" type like six pac & hemi stuff. Right? not trying to open a can of worms just wondering?

thanks




If you have ever had to parts hunt, you know it is always a challenge to find the correct part you are looking for and also those that are in acceptable condition for your projects caliber.

I would have to disagree with your thinking, the past decade people have been buying up alot of the rare six pack and hemi NOS items, while the 4 door valiant items remain on the shelves just hoping someone will need them someday.

Can you hear them calling Dave?

Mike Mancini
Posted By: AdamR

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/03/09 12:53 PM

Quote:

Check out the "leftovers" that we found UNDER the carpet. The red cap probably sealed one of the inlet/outlet tubes for the heater core. You can see where the imprint remained in the jute pad after all those years. The other photo shows a carpet tag from a vendor that I did not know supplied carpeting to Chrysler. It is the third supplier that I have documented in all of our research.









I think I still have the tag from my 22,000 mile 71 Scamps carpet. I'll take a look.
Posted By: RestoRick

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/03/09 04:20 PM

Quote:

Check out the "leftovers" that we found UNDER the carpet. The red cap probably sealed one of the inlet/outlet tubes for the heater core. You can see where the imprint remained in the jute pad after all those years. The other photo shows a carpet tag from a vendor that I did not know supplied carpeting to Chrysler. It is the third supplier that I have documented in all of our research.








I believe those black rubber plugs were used to plug seat belt, etc. threaded holes in the body tub to keep the threads free from either excess paint or maybe welding splatter. Ones I've found usually have witness lines from the threads and varying amounts of overspray. They also look like they could've been used over studs with the inside hole.

I wonder if they had any injuries from workers taking a header tripping over them?


Rick
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/04/09 03:24 AM

got any pics of the fuel filter ?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/04/09 04:07 AM

Quote:

got any pics of the fuel filter ?




Ooooooh yeah.....have I got pictures!!
Posted By: Paul Jacobs

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/04/09 05:18 AM

Dave
Dont even act like your gonna post pictures of that filter-this thread will get locked by the feeling police....
Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/04/09 01:22 PM

Quote:

Dave
Dont even act like your gonna post pictures of that filter-this thread will get locked by the feeling police....



Posted By: AARCONV

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/05/09 01:13 AM

Looks like I might have to whip out my 48,000 mile 69 dart to see how mint it still is...been in a garage since 1986.....sealed in it's own garage and the rear seat belts have the rubber band over plastic still untouched....it might also have the air in the tires from back then also...
Posted By: Paul Jacobs

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/05/09 01:21 AM

RICK
I too have found a bunch of those rubber plugs in my days-mostly in the bottom of 1/4 panels. I found 4 in the trunk of a charger and they fit perfectly, and had rings around them, where the quarter extension was. I assume they shoved them to hold on the extension while it was painted b/c the spray pattern showed evidence of this.
Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/05/09 04:47 AM

Dave, the screw on the washer bottle is typical for an electric pump style washer bottle. The two screws are the same for the foot pump model. I have parted out over 300 A-Bodies in my time, and have found TONS of stuff under carpets! One 69 GTS I took the interior out of had over 100 of the small rubber door plugs under the carpet in red and green! The assembly line clown must have knocked over a can of them and just put the carpet down over them instead of cleaning up his mess. That has to be the most optioned-out 4-door 70-72 Valiant I have ever seen!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/05/09 04:59 AM

Thanks Jim.
I am still learning as I go so I have no idea as to the options that were available on these cars. Do you know if Chrysler ever used that odd washer bottle screw for anything other than the A Body cars?
Posted By: In_The_Pink

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/05/09 05:43 AM

Quote:

Thanks Jim.
I am still learning as I go so I have no idea as to the options that were available on these cars. Do you know if Chrysler ever used that odd washer bottle screw for anything other than the A Body cars?




Has this "special" washer reservoir ground wire screw been found in that same position on other A-bodies of similar provenance?
Posted By: Rhinodart

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/05/09 03:09 PM

Quote:

Thanks Jim.
I am still learning as I go so I have no idea as to the options that were available on these cars. Do you know if Chrysler ever used that odd washer bottle screw for anything other than the A Body cars?




Since I am really only interested in A-bodies I couldn't tell you what other type Chrysler cars would have that particular screw. I have seen it on multiple year A-Bodies though.
Posted By: RestoRick

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/05/09 04:44 PM

Quote:

RICK
I too have found a bunch of those rubber plugs in my days-mostly in the bottom of 1/4 panels. I found 4 in the trunk of a charger and they fit perfectly, and had rings around them, where the quarter extension was. I assume they shoved them to hold on the extension while it was painted b/c the spray pattern showed evidence of this.




ahhh.. very cool!!

There seems to be some plant variation on the quarter ext. painting too... some were caulked in place before paint.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/13/09 07:11 AM

Quote:

Dave
Dont even act like your gonna post pictures of that filter-this thread will get locked by the feeling police....




Hi Paul,
All joking aside, I cut open an NOS filter due to all the speculation about old, broken down paper internals, etc….. The filter element was like brand new! It is a composite material that is treated to filter and withstand harsh fluids such as gasoline. After some research, I found that as long as it remains in unused condition, there is no "stated" shelf life. The presence of a stable atmospheric air does not diminish the shelf life whatsoever. Let me know if you would like to see a picture comparing the internals of an NOS filter with a new fuel filter element. Thanks!
Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/13/09 12:59 PM

Hey Dave, I can't wait to get one for my 70 Swinger. Incidentally, those seatbelt buckle anti rattle pads were dead on - they look exactly like the originals that remained in my Challenger.
Posted By: Aero426

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/13/09 04:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Dave
Dont even act like your gonna post pictures of that filter-this thread will get locked by the feeling police....




Hi Paul,
All joking aside, I cut open an NOS filter due to all the speculation about old, broken down paper internals, etc….. The filter element was like brand new! It is a composite material that is treated to filter and withstand harsh fluids such as gasoline. After some research, I found that as long as it remains in unused condition, there is no "stated" shelf life. The presence of a stable atmospheric air does not diminish the shelf life whatsoever. Let me know if you would like to see a picture comparing the internals of an NOS filter with a new fuel filter element. Thanks!




Dave, can you please post an exterior photo of the reproduction filter that you sell and the NOS filter. I could not find either on your web site.

Thanks
Posted By: 70challrtse

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/13/09 04:38 PM

He's posted plenty of photos of the filter here on Moparts. Do a search.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/13/09 04:52 PM

Quote:

He's posted plenty of photos of the filter here on Moparts. Do a search.




Yes, please post that question in another thread. That will jeopardize this thread.
Posted By: Aero426

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/13/09 05:14 PM

Quote:

He's posted plenty of photos of the filter here on Moparts. Do a search.




I've already been there cowboy. I will restate the question...

In the lengthly (and now locked) fuel filter thread, there was conversation about, but not a photo of the REPRODUCTION filter that ECS sells at a lower price than the NOS filter with ECS labeling. That's the one I want to see. I ASSUME it is not the same one Totally Auto sells.

I could not find info on the ECS website, so I will ask again here.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/25/09 04:38 AM

Hi Doug,
I will include a picture or two with some additional photos that we were going to post on the Valiant disassembly. The filters are not yet on our website. Sorry for the confusion!

DW
Posted By: Aero426

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 02/25/09 03:23 PM

Quote:

Hi Doug,
I will include a picture or two with some additional photos that we were going to post on the Valiant disassembly. The filters are not yet on our website. Sorry for the confusion!

DW




Thanks very much!
Posted By: gtsuperbee

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 03/02/09 06:44 PM

one of my friends has a 20,000 2dr survivor /6 70 swinger. B5 blue/black top/blue interior. It may be worth looking at if you get to Northeast ohio. PM me. By the way, it is for sale.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 03/02/09 10:44 PM

I hope this helps Doug.
Here is a photo showing what we offer. (With the reproduction filter comes the correct stamping, NOS hoses and clamps. Only the filter is different in the mix of things.)
I also wanted to show a picture of the inside of an NOS unit. I was "teased" about how the inside element must be a broken down inferior old mess. This particular person also remarked, "how could anyone trust one of these on their new engine rebuild"!?!?! Well, the "joke" is on HIM!! The filter element is a resin coated material that is manufactured to withstand harsh caustic fluids. When I contacted the manufacturer, they claimed that the internal filtering element has an indefinite shelf life when kept dry! They are just as reliable as ones that are currently manufactured! Anyway I hope this ties a few of the loose ends up regarding these parts. Thanks!

Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 03/02/09 11:05 PM

Hey Dave, your PM's are full. How's the shoulder?
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 03/03/09 03:52 AM

One more week and I won't know I had it operated on. (Seriously!) The carb decals are going well. I should have them finished sometime next week. I cleared the mailbox. Thanks!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 03/09/09 03:30 AM

Quote:



Are we sure that nobody has been in there??

I'm questioning the wire and paint in the lower, right corner.....




Hello Troy,
I thought of you today as we were getting into some serious disassembly of the Valiant. Remember the trunk wire you had questioned? It turns out that it IS in fact the original wire AND the original wrapping. The wires went from two into one and the wrapping was simply thicker at the transition point. No breaks or splices whatsoever. I will post some really unique photos tomorrow on some of our findings. I also have pictures of the original rear glass with temper marks EVERYWHERE throughout the surface. It has the small inclusions where holding grippers (?) put indentions around the outside perimeter during it‘s shaping. Many hobbyist believe that original glass is void of the production “flaws” that are also present in the new reproduction glass. Original glass has been incorrectly perceived for quite some time. I will post pictures that document these characteristics/flaws in the 40 year old rear glass!
Posted By: Troy

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 03/09/09 03:12 PM

Hi Dave
Very cool!! This is way You never say "Always" or "Never" in the Mopar world.

Keep the pictures coming!!
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 03/09/09 08:37 PM

Here are the pictures I mentioned Troy!







Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/28/09 09:02 PM

Dave,
after speaking with you today you just HAVE to post some pictures of that door jam screw you restored.
It's unreal. Pictures please !!
Jules
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/28/09 10:25 PM

Quote:

Dave,
after speaking with you today you just HAVE to post some pictures of that door jam screw you restored.
It's unreal. Pictures please !!
Jules




Hi Jules,
As I was telling you earlier, we have pictures showing original characteristics that I never knew existed on these cars.
Here is the picture showing the original VIN and the screw that is partially underneath the bordering clear cover. I was deducted for having a repo VIN on the Challenger so I needed to keep the original on this car. I was left with the scenario of having to detail the screw (and door latch) without removing it from the door. The factory placed the decal over the top door latch screw. I could not remove the screw without tearing the decal so I had to find a way to detail the screw to look new without removing it. (Keep in mind that almost half of the screw is behind the decal.) I took a very soft paper towel and folded it over twice. I made a pointed flat tip with the towel material and applied a metal polish on one side of the pointed flap. I then slid it VERY CAREFULLY behind the clear border where it had a void area due to the counter sunk metal that surrounded the screw. I positioned the paper towel behind the plastic VIN edge and applied a slight pressure to the outside plastic edge as I polished back and forth. After getting as much of the screw as I could, I used a small flat tip screw driver to back the screw out a quarter of a turn. I did this twice and was able to polish the entire surface of the screw. (A quarter section at a time.) I then used some prep solvent to clean the yellowing backside of the clear border on the VIN. Years of dust had accumulated on the sticky surface. After about an hour and a half of sitting and meticulously working on the small area, here was the result. Not a single bit of damage to the sticker and the screw looks like new! This is just one of the MANY new challenges we have had to work around in order to preserve the vehicle's originality while making it look unmolested and new.

Posted By: JulesdaWiperman

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/28/09 10:38 PM

Dave,
I have a new terminology for the work you are doing.
FORENSIC RESTORATION.
Great job.
Jules
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/29/09 04:05 AM

How would a judge be able tell tell if you had a reproduction VIN decal?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/29/09 04:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Dave,
after speaking with you today you just HAVE to post some pictures of that door jam screw you restored.
It's unreal. Pictures please !!
Jules




Hi Jules,
As I was telling you earlier, we have pictures showing original characteristics that I never knew existed on these cars.
Here is the picture showing the original VIN and the screw that is partially underneath the bordering clear cover. I was deducted for having a repo VIN on the Challenger so I needed to keep the original on this car. I was left with the scenario of having to detail the screw (and door latch) without removing it from the door. The factory placed the decal over the top door latch screw. I could not remove the screw without tearing the decal so I had to find a way to detail the screw to look new without removing it. (Keep in mind that almost half of the screw is behind the decal.) I took a very soft paper towel and folded it over twice. I made a pointed flat tip with the towel material and applied a metal polish on one side of the pointed flap. I then slid it VERY CAREFULLY behind the clear border where it had a void area due to the counter sunk metal that surrounded the screw. I positioned the paper towel behind the plastic VIN edge and applied a slight pressure to the outside plastic edge as I polished back and forth. After getting as much of the screw as I could, I used a small flat tip screw driver to back the screw out a quarter of a turn. I did this twice and was able to polish the entire surface of the screw. (A quarter section at a time.) I then used some prep solvent to clean the yellowing backside of the clear border on the VIN. Years of dust had accumulated on the sticky surface. After about an hour and a half of sitting and meticulously working on the small area, here was the result. No a single bit of damage to the sticker and the screw looks like new! This is just one of the MANY new challenges we have had to work around in order to preserve the vehicle's originality while making it look unmolested and new.






Dave,

All I can say is DAMN! Now that is what I call anal and I mean it in the nicest of senses. You certainly have a passion for cars.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/29/09 05:21 AM

Quote:

How would a judge be able tell tell if you had a reproduction VIN decal?




Alan my man! Good Question. I can only speak for myself but I always display the original with my factory paperwork. That makes it easy for the Judges to tell the difference. If you look really close at the originals, some of them have areas that are lighter in various spots of the lettering. The ones we make look just about dead on but I can certainly tell the difference. Keep in mind that we are trying to keep every decal original. (Especially this one) It is certainly the most important decal on any Chrysler vehicle.
Posted By: HEMICUDA

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/29/09 10:38 PM

"I was deducted for having a repo VIN on the Challenger so I needed to keep the original on this car."




Dave, I'm a little confused, if the door sticker was indistinguishable from the original, except for the fact it was to new looking, why the deduction in points? I thought the Challenger scored perfect on the paint and that obviously wasn’t original. How does that work in the Mopar National judging criteria?
Posted By: VCODE

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/29/09 11:47 PM

Quote:

"I was deducted for having a repo VIN on the Challenger so I needed to keep the original on this car."




Dave, I'm a little confused, if the door sticker was indistinguishable from the original, except for the fact it was to new looking, why the deduction in points? I thought the Challenger scored perfect on the paint and that obviously wasn’t original. How does that work in the Mopar National judging criteria?




Is it true that if you use repro parts 1 point is taken off automatically?
Posted By: LimeliteAero

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/30/09 12:51 AM

Im pretty sure I wont be in any situation where Ill be counting points.

But I destroyed my original sticker while attempting to remove it. I was going to replace it with a repop anyway but I wanted to hold onto the real deal original.
Posted By: mopargem

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/30/09 02:01 AM

Quote:



But I destroyed my original sticker while attempting to remove it. I was going to replace it with a repop anyway but I wanted to hold onto the real deal original.




But they made it look easy to remove that VIN decal in the original Gone in 60 seconds movie
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/30/09 03:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:

"I was deducted for having a repo VIN on the Challenger so I needed to keep the original on this car."




Dave, I'm a little confused, if the door sticker was indistinguishable from the original, except for the fact it was to new looking, why the deduction in points? I thought the Challenger scored perfect on the paint and that obviously wasn’t original. How does that work in the Mopar National judging criteria?




Is it true that if you use repro parts 1 point is taken off automatically?





Hi Bob and Mike!
If you guys don't mind, I will address both points in this one post. Yes Bob, an automatic one point reduction occurs if the part is not original Mopar issue. You get one point for originality and one point for the condition or appearance of the part. If the part is original and looks new, you get two points for the part. If it is reproduction, only one point can be earned for just the overall appearance of the part.

Mike, I have wondered for years how a vehicle can be judged with an inconsistent view throughout the SAME vehicle!?! I am not referencing the OE judging specifically but I really don't know how to answer your question. I agree 100% with your rationale even though I criticize my own vehicles by doing so. Right is right and wrong is wrong. If one aspect of the car is scrutinized and docked because of the reproduction status of a part, why isn't the replacement or "reproduction" paint given a one point deduction? It isn't original! Wouldn't you assume that the same judging characteristics would apply for EVERY part or aspect of the car? If the judges say that the decal appears to be too new and therefore receives a deduction, wouldn't the beautiful new appearing paint job fall within the same category of scrutiny?

Concerning the VIN decals, I really think that what we provide is every bit as good or "original" as the ones that were manufactured many years ago. Before everyone jumps all over that comment let me explain the reasoning behind it. In 1970, Chrysler used an independent, subsidized manufacturer to produce their VIN safety standard decals. The company they commissioned was given a license and the approval to provide these labels/decals to the car industry. In 2002, ECS (an independent, subsidized manufacturer) was given licensing rights to manufacture VIN safety standard decals for the Chrysler market. We have the original blueprints and specifications that were given to the same company who originally provided the service/product in 1970. Unless someone has a need or love affair with 40 year old generic materials, compared to the exact same materials we use today, what is the real difference? Ninety five percent of the NOS replacement parts we buy today were manufactured AFTER the cars were produced on the assembly line. Aren't those parts simply reproduction parts that were manufactured at a later date by an independent, subsidized (licensed) manufacturer? NOS parts were not made by Chrysler. They were made under contract just like the parts that people like BE&A and I, are authorized to manufacture. If someone wants to argue that the "old" reproduction NOS replacement parts have a more "correct" status, I need to ask based on what? If it was made after the fact and not a factory installed piece, are we to assume that one degree of incorrectness takes precedence over an "acceptable" or alternative degree of incorrectness? A piece that was made 35 years ago by a subsidized independent manufacturer (for Chrysler) is still just an older version of a reproduction replacement part!!
Posted By: Iceman01

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/30/09 03:52 PM

Quote:

Concerning the VIN decals, I really think that what we provide is every bit as good or "original" as the ones that were manufactured many years ago. Before everyone jumps all over that comment let me explain the reasoning behind it. In 1970, Chrysler used an independent, subsidized manufacturer to produce their VIN safety standard decals. The company they commissioned was given a license and the approval to provide these labels/decals to the car industry. In 2002, ECS (an independent, subsidized manufacturer) was given licensing rights to manufacture VIN safety standard decals for the Chrysler market. We have the original blueprints and specifications that were given to the same company who originally provided the service/product in 1970. Unless someone has a need or love affair with 40 year old generic materials, compared to the exact same materials we use today, what is the real difference? Ninety five percent of the NOS replacement parts we buy today were manufactured AFTER the cars were produced on the assembly line. Aren't those parts simply reproduction parts that were manufactured at a later date by an independent, subsidized (licensed) manufacturer? NOS parts were not made by Chrysler. They were made under contract just like the parts that people like BE&A and I, are authorized to manufacture. If someone wants to argue that the "old" reproduction NOS replacement parts have a more "correct" status, I need to ask based on what? If it was made after the fact and not a factory installed piece, are we to assume that one degree of incorrectness takes precedence over an "acceptable" or alternative degree of incorrectness? A piece that was made 35 years ago by a subsidized independent manufacturer (for Chrysler) is still just an older version of a reproduction replacement part!!




Excellent food for thought Dave.
Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/30/09 04:44 PM

Dave, are your labels made of "tamper resistant material" like all compliance labels are supposed to be? They are supposed to tear or are destroyed if removed. Not that it makes any difference and just asking but that's the reg for compliance labels....don't ask how I know


MikeR
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/30/09 07:20 PM

Quote:

Dave, are your labels made of "tamper resistant material" like all compliance labels are supposed to be? They are supposed to tear or are destroyed if removed. Not that it makes any difference and just asking but that's the reg for compliance labels....don't ask how I know


MikeR




Hi Mike,
As of September 2008, all replacement VIN labels (for newer vehicles) are required to be manufactured with "self destructive" tamper resistant adhesive material. ECS has another branch of our company that supplies licensed replacement VIN decals to the collision industry across the country. Check us out at ESCVIN.com. We are licensed and approved to obtain all types of select materials that were/are used by the various automobile manufacturers. Our "vintage" decals are not under the same guidelines or jurisdiction as the ones that were made for the model years 1990 to present. We use a product that is twice as durable as the original only because the customers asked for the "better" material from the outset. Some of those pioneer customers complained that they were not able to move the decal if they placed it in a wrong location. They couldn't reposition it even if only a small part of the decal was stuck to the painted surface. The tamper resistant material we use for the Chrysler VINs will destroy the surface artwork or print if you try and remove them. If anyone ever requests the older style tamper proof material, we can certainly provide that particular type. Since our customers are not buying these to see if they can be destroyed upon removing them, the variant "tamper resistant" material we use has not been an issue whatsoever. Keep in mind that the material label stock used by Chrysler (throughout the years) has changed numerous times.
Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/30/09 09:39 PM

Hi Dave, thank you that is a great explanation and I totally understand the rational for not using the tamper resistant material on the reproduction labels, appreciate the reply.


MikeR
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 04/30/09 10:42 PM

Quote:

I totally understand the rational for not using the tamper resistant material on the reproduction labels, appreciate the reply.


MikeR





Hi Mike,
I just wanted to clarify that the material we use for the reproduction Chrysler VIN decals, IS in fact a tamper resistant product. It does not remove in the same fashion as the originals however. We chose the variant form of material because it doesn't destroy the entire foundation layer when it is removed. The base layer will remain but the face of the printed surface will separate away from the clear overlay if it has been firmly pressed into place. It allows for (some) positioning correction during the initial application phase. Sorry for the confusion.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/09/09 06:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Hi Mark,
The original battery is long gone. It still has the original cables though. We do know from the buildsheets that it took the yellow cap battery. I have 21 months to locate an original....that will be a tough find!





If you do find an original please post pictures of it beside a reproduction....I don't think I've ever seen an original Is there a lot of differences?

Which leads me to a OE Level judging question....
If a persons car is sporting a reproduction battery, which I'm sure 99% are....Is there a point deduction?





Hi Alan! Guess what Dave Stuart and I found yesterday on a road trip to Indiana?
A yellow cap, 24 Series, ASSEMBLY LINE, date coded, original Chrysler battery!!!!!!! My buddy (Ed Meyer) had ONE that he got from a guy who did the warranty claims for Chrysler dealerships many years ago. (I almost immediately thought of you when we saw it.) I could not believe that we found this. Until yesterday, I had never even seen an assembly line battery. Your statement about the repos being 99% correct is not even close. The original has a different look that stands out distinctly from the reproduction. I will get some close up side by side comparison photos and post them on Monday. I have already “detailed” the battery and it looks New again. An Unbelievable find!!
We are finished locating every replacement component needed and were able to stand by our original mission statement…..not a single reproduction part!
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/09/09 08:24 PM

That's awesome Dave...will it take a charge?
Does the date code work well for your car? That would be an amazing find. Congratulations

If that's my quote above...I said 99% of people are using reproduction batteries NOT that reproduction batteries are 99% correct. As I've stated...I've never seen an original that I know of.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/09/09 10:51 PM

Quote:

That's awesome Dave...will it take a charge?
I said 99% of people are using reproduction batteries NOT that reproduction batteries are 99% correct.






It actually MIGHT take a charge! It was stored dry and the plates look pretty good. I am going to research the "How To" on something like this and see if it can be brought back.
The date code is 12/69 so it will work for this car built in 4/70.
Sorry for not understanding your quote and my misprint.
Posted By: mccannix

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/09/09 10:56 PM

Great find Dave!.
Leave it to 'Special' Ed, a Ford guy to have that battery in his possession.
Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/10/09 02:03 AM

Dave, can you post a photo of the top, bottom and sides of the battery cap? Thanks.


MikeR
Posted By: stevenjuliano

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/10/09 03:52 PM

dave....that came from delberts place. ed and i went there a long time ago. i still have some new in box 24c autolite batteries for a cobra from there plus some dead chrysler batteries and some pretty cool memorabilia. we would spend all day in that place. i'd be telling stories to delbert keeping him occupied while ed was in the back rooting through the goodies. as ed would be banging around i would speak louder to try to cover up the noise. man, what i would give to relive those days again.... what most people dont know is that chrysler never serviced the assembly line batteries like gm and ford. for example, if back in 1970 you took home new your dart, boss 302 and a vette and the next morning you discover all your batteries have been stolen what would you have done? a trip to the ford dealer would have gotten you the same exact autolite, gm the same exact delco BUT the chrysler dealer would have sold you a CRYSLER PARTS battery. it looks nothing like the one that was in your car day one. to date i have never seen a brand new nos assembly line chrysler battery. that is the one part that has never turned up in my world.
in the ford world max over at AMK back in the day used to open the bottom of a dead used autolite, scoop out the insides (lots of work!) and sleeve in a smaller battery. to me that was a sin because i liked the batteries as display items. but it was cool to see an orig battery fire up his car like it was 1970 all over again.
happy mothers day to the mrs. steven
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/11/09 05:03 PM

Hey Steven! Good to hear from you yesterday. (That mention of you talking louder while Ed was rummaging through the parts had me laughing as hard as the Two Quarters story.) Here are a few photos of the battery.




Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/11/09 05:07 PM

Here you go Mike.

Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/11/09 06:14 PM

Quote:

Here you go Mike.






THANKS Dave! yep five vent holes on the original caps vs. one on the repo So are there deductions for non-correctness on reproduction parts
Posted By: sam c

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/11/09 10:19 PM

Hi Dave,I am currently getting ready to send my bumpers out for rechroming.I heard that you have obtained nos for the valiant.Could you post some pixs of the bumpers?I have been told that there are imperfections in original bumpers that are not duplicated after rechroming Thanks in advance.
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/11/09 10:58 PM

Quote:

So are there deductions for non-correctness on reproduction parts




You get ZERO points in OE judging, for having a repo part. All “parts” are capable of receiving two point’s total. One point for originality and one point for the condition of the part. Since a repo is not original, it is automatically given a full one point deduction in that area. When you think about it, that is 50% of the total amount possible for any particular component. The part basically receives a failing grade before it is judged!
Posted By: LimeliteAero

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/12/09 01:34 AM

After following this thread Im sure glad I dont participate in this level of showing.

I'm still amazed some of the parts that are uncovered are still being dug up. I'd have thought they were long gone.
Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/12/09 03:05 AM

Dave, thanks again for the reply and here's an original red cap to compare to your repo red cap. Remember I said that I could help I.D. an original battery from a reproduction early on in this thread and this cap with the five holes was one of the tell-tales, an older gentleman showed me this a while ago. There are a few other things but I know you and your team know what they are


MikeR

Attached picture 5223608-DSC09725.JPG
Posted By: A12

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/12/09 03:07 AM

top side original, maybe it's the light but the originals seem brighter red IMO

Attached picture 5223618-DSC09727.JPG
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/12/09 02:52 PM

Quote:

Hi Dave,I am currently getting ready to send my bumpers out for rechroming.I heard that you have obtained nos for the valiant.Could you post some pixs of the bumpers?I have been told that there are imperfections in original bumpers that are not duplicated after rechroming Thanks in advance.





Hello Sam! We did find all the "chrome" for this car in original NOS condition. You are correct about the finish. The originals appear to have a bit of an unfinished (scratched?) metal surface UNDER the chrome. I took some pictures of the rear bumper and one of the reverse lights we were able to locate. Dave Stuart has been responsible for finding about 75% of these parts. He is the Midwest District Zone Manager for Chrysler and has been able to locate original items from his data base that is linked with EVERY Chrysler outlet across the Country. (He has by far been the main catalyst to our project. We have even found all the original "paper" gaskets that a few were inquiring about earlier in this thread.) The "chrome" parts we have found are in beautiful condition! No scuffs or scratches whatsoever. No reproduction parts!!!




Posted By: cudaized

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/12/09 04:31 PM

Quote:

...Here are a few photos of the battery.







Hi Dave,
Thanks for the pictures of an assembly line battery. Perhaps you will be providing a repro service for the "correct" battery in our future?

Ola Nilsson
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/13/09 06:34 PM

Here was an interesting bit of "detail" information that was a surprise for us.
How many people knew that the doors on these vehicles were primed on the back sides of the door skins BEFORE they were mated to the inner door frame structure?
After the car body panels were assembled, the car was then dipped/submerged by the conveyor primer line. The first layer you will see on the back side of the door skin is the light color primer followed by the darker dip color.
Posted By: moparo

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/13/09 07:19 PM

Hi Dave
They also put the panel treatment (undercoat?) on before the skin was mounted. Same for the quarter panels
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/13/09 11:38 PM

Quote:

Hi Dave
They also put the panel treatment (undercoat?) on before the skin was mounted. Same for the quarter panels




Hi Mauro,
The panel treatment you mentioned is referred to as a Mastic sealer. It was also sprayed on prior to the door skin being mated to the door frame. That particular layer was not used for "corrosive" purposes but as a sound deadened. If that material was not applied to the large metal door skins they would have sounded like a bass drum when they were closed. The same for the quarter panels. Had the Mastic material had not been applied to that area, rocks or any other exterior "knock" would have resonated throughout the enclosed (void) areas. The black color is over spray that blew through the door openings while it was being painted at the factory.



Posted By: DodgeMaterial

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/13/09 11:58 PM

Dave -you are correct. One nice thing about working on such a well preserved and original car is the ability to learn and share with everyone. I confirmed our findings with Mr. Mike Masich. Mike worked in Chrysler stamping during the late 60s and early 70s. He described after stamping a door skin (or quarter panel) they would spray prime and then apply "dumb-dumb" (mastic sound deadener)on the inside, then final assemble the door shell and ship to the assembly plant or parts depot. With this car being so clean you can easily see all of the stages including the overspray in the doors of the assembly plant paints... both blue (interior color) and black (exterior color) are evident and even allow you to vision the strokes of the painter. Hope this helps - Dave S.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/14/09 03:52 AM

How will you remove all the rust or surface oxidization on the inside of the upper half of the inner door structure as shown in the above picture?
I'm sure it wasn't there when the car was new....and you know we'll want before and after pictures once you're finished
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/14/09 04:53 AM

Quote:

How will you remove all the rust or surface oxidization on the inside of the upper half of the inner door structure as shown in the above picture?
I'm sure it wasn't there when the car was new....and you know we'll want before and after pictures once you're finished





With rust remover!!?!!?!
Was this a trick question Alan? After spending over an hour to remove oxidation from a screw that was half way under the VIN tag, did you think THIS would really be an issue? When those parts are finished, you will NEVER know they had ANY trace of oxidation whatsoever. (If you like I will send you a complimentary framed copy of the “before” and “after” photos.)
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/14/09 05:10 AM

Quote:


I'm sure it wasn't there when the car was new....and you know we'll want before and after pictures once you're finished




Hi Alan,
Help me out with this one! I literally just received an email from someone reminding me of a previous post (about the Cuda in 2005) where someone claimed, THAT particular car did not represent a factory delivered vehicle because there would have been “flash” rust on the bare metal resulting from the water test. I certainly can’t offer both types of “finishes” so what should do I do? Do I take the rust off and have one side argue that it SHOULD be there, or leave it as is and have the other side argue that it SHOULD NOT be there? The other option would be to remove only half of it and be correct on both counts!
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/14/09 11:06 AM

Ohhhh......so who has the trick questions now....eh???

The answer is quite obivious....and we here at MOPARTS wouldn't expect anything less.....

You need to spend countless hours removing any sign of rust inside the doors, under the dash, rear parcel shelf, etc...

Then without question you need to construct a water test facility to re-create the water test done to this car in 1970....

....then whatever flash rusts in the time it takes you to get this car to the judging block.....be sure to transport it on an open trailer, ...should mimic closely the amount of flash rust that would have been on the car on the dealer's lot.

I'm surprized you had to ask....


P.S. A framed before/after picture will not be neccessary, but thatnks...
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/14/09 04:00 PM

Quote:

The answer is quite obivious....and we here at MOPARTS wouldn't expect anything less.....





You just made this too easy! At this point I could say that we DID remove the flash rust and everything you see in the pictures WAS the results of our simulated “water test.” Isn’t that the type of response that prompts the suspicious, rhetoric questions regarding many of the things we are doing or the parts we find? (I especially love the poorly camouflaged “test” questions.)

Don't worry Alan, shortcuts, embellishments or compromised truths will never be a part of the equation. People can safely perceive this project for what it represents. Those who consistently “question” under a suspicious or cynical view are simply exposing their own ilk or personal traits. What you see is what you get!
Posted By: LimeliteAero

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/14/09 04:52 PM

if a car has rust from a "water test" wouldnt that mean it failed the test and should not have be sold to the public?

I say kill the rust and say there is no flash because this is a perfect car and did not leak.
Posted By: anlauto

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/14/09 05:58 PM

Great...Now we'll need "before", "after" and "DURING" pictures...
Keep up the great work Dave
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/15/09 04:54 AM

Hey Mr. Alan G! You will never guess what we figured out today after looking at the build sheet to this old jalopy? It takes a GREEN cap Battery. The good thing is that the battery I got from Ed Meyer actually WAS a green cap style. He had an extra set of original yellow caps that we switched out. I am getting the green ones back from him the next time we visit in a few weeks. (They were even in better condition than the NICE yellow ones.) I will post some pictures of those when I receive them. Someone mentioned that the green caps are not reproduced so that even makes the battery a bit more unique.
If there are any other “behind the scenes" photos you wish to see, let me know. We have taken over 500 so far and still clicking away! (Thanks for your input Alan!! )
Posted By: ECS

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/18/09 09:42 PM

Quote:

Great...Now we'll need "before", "after" and "DURING" pictures...




I experimented a little with the removal of the flash rust. I spent about 10 minuets on a small area to show the contrasting difference. (The wiper motor area in the picture was not included.) I should be able to remove all traces of flash rust with no abrasive materials and the metal will look pristine.

I also included a picture of the quarter side marker light area. There was a huge debate a year ago as to whether body components or accessories (with gaskets) were painted on or off the car. Would anyone care to guess how the quarter side marker lights were painted on this vehicle?




Posted By: VCODE

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 05/20/09 12:43 AM

Quote:

Hey Mr. Alan G! You will never guess what we figured out today after looking at the build sheet to this old jalopy? It takes a GREEN cap Battery. The good thing is that the battery I got from Ed Meyer actually WAS a green cap style. He had an extra set of original yellow caps that we switched out. I am getting the green ones back from him the next time we visit in a few weeks. (They were even in better condition than the NICE yellow ones.) I will post some pictures of those when I receive them. Someone mentioned that the green caps are not reproduced so that even makes the battery a bit more unique.
If there are any other “behind the scenes" photos you wish to see, let me know. We have taken over 500 so far and still clicking away! (Thanks for your input Alan!! )




Hey Dave,
Thanks for the Great Post/ Pictures
Would your be willing to help out with some yellow caps for me to use. I will return them when done
Bob
Posted By: not_a_charger

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! - 06/15/09 06:17 PM

We're gonna keep this on-topic, and preserved in the tech archives because of all of the great info contained in this thread.
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