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F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions

Posted By: Greg55_99

F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/02/09 10:31 PM

I was speaking with Poorboy in another thead but I felt I should start another one. Didn't want to hijack it. Anyway, I have a 1977 Volare and want a car that can handle pretty well. I'm not a racer or dirt tracker. I want a better suspension under the car than the torsion bar setup under it now. Poorboy (Gene) has had some experience with F body's and reccomended that I use a cut down Dakota frame and suspension. I've thought about that, but, I think my car would sit too high. I have another idea that I'd like to throw around and get some feedback.

The 03-09 Crown Victoria and Merc Marauder are body on frame cars and have a really good suspension setup. They are also VERY close to the F body in overall dimensions. Wheelbase for the Fords are 114.7" vs. 108.7" for the two door F body. Front track is a little wider on the Fords but I've had my tape measure out and found that I can just stuff the Vics suspension under my Volare fenders (with the proper offset wheels). Front track 60.0" for F body, 63.4" for the Ford.

Which brings me to this. I'd have to narrow the Ford frame about 3" to fit under the F body and shorten the wheelbase to match. I'd also have to completely cut out the Volare subrame and brackets. My question is: Is this feasable? Or practical? This is more of a Street Rodder query because you guys do this on a regular basis (splicing frames I mean). Any help Gene? Thanks in advance for the inputs.

Greg

Attached picture 5393146-CrownVic_fully-boxed-frame5.jpg
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/02/09 10:37 PM

Before you get too far into this, look at the stock offset on the Ford, it's alread seriously deep. Be hard to add another 1.5" or so perside there.

Nothing wrong with the F body suspension that a little work won;t fix, and it's a whole lot less work that you're contemplating. After all it's the same suspension the Diplomats used when they were the cop cars of choice and I have had old timer cops stop and talk with me when I used to own one.
Posted By: Greg55_99

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/03/09 01:43 AM

What I've currently got in the car is a 413 Big Block and it's a nose heavy pig. Since I'll have to rebuld everything in this car as well as tie the frame, I figured upgunning to the Ford suspension with rack and pinion might be a better deal. The P71 Cop car chassis are very strong and, frankly, pretty inexpensive. In my area, a Crown Vic Police car frame can be had for around $300. Figure under a grand for the complete front cradle, frame and rear end. Frankly, I'm intrigued by that Crown Vic IFS. It's a whole lot nicer than dealing with torsion bars.

Greg

Attached picture 5393546-Crown_Vic34.jpg
Posted By: poorboy

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/03/09 02:38 AM

I've seem many guys try to go down the "narrow" a front suspension before. Cutting the frame and removing 3" isn't a big deal, until you want everything to fit again.

Issue #1) What are you going to do to get a rack 3" narrower then the one in the Crown Vic? That alone will add up to some coin for a custom made rack. You could use a rack from another car, but then you might as well built a suspension from scratch.
Issue #2) Once you pull in the frame rails 3", they will likely sit too close together to fit an engine, trans, exhaust and a steering column between them. Forget something as wide as a 413/727.
Issue #3) unless your planning on using the entire ford frame (narrowed?) then you will be cutting the front subframe AND rockers out of your car, or your back to welding the heavy guage frame onto your 16guage substructure. If your doing that, you might as will look into grafting the Volare body skin onto the ford floor pan.

The Dakota frame welded to the Volare floor pan and tied into your rear subframe won't be much higher then the Volare, and lowering componets are available for a Dakota. The Dakota frame can handle the 413's weight and power and won't be some cobbled up mess with specilal parts. Gene
Posted By: Greg55_99

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/03/09 09:36 AM

Hi again Gene,
I was hoping to be a bit more clear. When I speak of "narrowing the frame", I mean pulling the outriggers in the center of the frame inward 1.5" on either side to fit inside the Volare rockers. I don't want to narrow the portion supporting the front or rear suspension. Just bring the longitudinal rails inward.

Greg
Posted By: poorboy

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/04/09 02:47 AM

If I remember right, the Volare already runs the tire/wheels pretty close to the outside front fender lips, 3" (wheel track difference) is asking a lot from wheel offset. I think that much offset would look goofy.

Guess thats what makes hot rodding so much fun, your free to try anything you want. Maybe you will come up with the sweet setup everyone will want to go to. I can sit here in my easy chair and make speculation all day long as to if something will work or not, but honestly, I've never tried doing what you perpose. Don't let me stop you, take many pictures, write everything down, make a list of stuff you use, and let us know what things work, what didn't, and what you would change next time. Gene
Posted By: rabid scott

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/04/09 06:40 PM

Why are you trying to "re-invent" the wheel?

Subframing a uni-body? Dakota frames? Crown Vic frames?

What is it exactly you are trying to do?

You think stuffing the front suspension from a Crown Vic with a small aluminum V8 is going to help with your car handling with a large heavy cast iron engine? Don't be surprised if it still handles like crap after all that work.

Want it to handle better?

Loose the rubber isolators between the k-frame and frame. Firmfeel.com sells aluminum versions of these.

Add an aftermarket front swaybar. This is usually the first thing I do to my cars.

Subframe connectors. These are cheap and easy to make and install.

There's other trick chassis stiffening stuff out there, too, like engine compartment braces and braces under the front fenders.

Increase the front spring rate. Go to coil-overs if you really hate the torsion bars. You'll have the whole front suspension/k-frame out while you're do the bushings, it would be a good time to figure out mounting them.

I bet you could even retrofit the rack and pinion kit for A-bodies to an F-body pretty easily.


Sorry if I sound like a jerk, it just seems totally asinine to completely add a frame to a unibody or subframe something so simple to upgrade.
Posted By: 76dodgeboy

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/04/09 07:22 PM

What about an alterKtion setup, coilovers etc. Also have you looked into a Mustang 2 setup? Adding a full frame to a subframe car will make it sit Higher unless you plan to cut the whole floor out and channel it over the frame. Alot of work that might not payoff like you want
Posted By: Greg55_99

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/13/09 11:37 PM

Quote:

Why are you trying to "re-invent" the wheel?

Subframing a uni-body? Dakota frames? Crown Vic frames?

What is it exactly you are trying to do?

You think stuffing the front suspension from a Crown Vic with a small aluminum V8 is going to help with your car handling with a large heavy cast iron engine? Don't be surprised if it still handles like crap after all that work.

Want it to handle better?

Loose the rubber isolators between the k-frame and frame. Firmfeel.com sells aluminum versions of these.

Add an aftermarket front swaybar. This is usually the first thing I do to my cars.

Subframe connectors. These are cheap and easy to make and install.

There's other trick chassis stiffening stuff out there, too, like engine compartment braces and braces under the front fenders.

Increase the front spring rate. Go to coil-overs if you really hate the torsion bars. You'll have the whole front suspension/k-frame out while you're do the bushings, it would be a good time to figure out mounting them.

I bet you could even retrofit the rack and pinion kit for A-bodies to an F-body pretty easily.


Sorry if I sound like a jerk, it just seems totally asinine to completely add a frame to a unibody or subframe something so simple to upgrade.



No, not a jerk, just a bit closed minded I'd say. As for adding a full frame to a unibody Mopar, it's being done:



http://www.schwartzperformance.com/news.aspx?newsid=33

I haven't given up the idea of using the Ford frame and suspension. I actually spoke to a good friend of mine that's into Caddy's and he thinks it's quite doable.

Greg
Posted By: rabid scott

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/14/09 03:41 PM

I'll be darned!!

It's still not something I'd do, but it's not my time or money either!

Go ahead a give it a try if you want, let us know how it works out for ya!!
Posted By: poorboy

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/15/09 04:57 AM

I think it would be interesting to see exactly how that frame "bolts" under a B body, and how much of the original car you have to be removed to make it fit. I suspect it would be an awsome improvement over the unibody, but I also suspect it carries a hefty price tag. Probably not something a guy would want to do to a daily driver, but if a guy was autocrossing, or something on that order...... Gene
Posted By: Greg55_99

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/15/09 11:12 AM

I don't doubt there will be quite a bit of "cutting" involved. The good news is, F-body's ain't worth spit, so cutting one up is not a big deal. My particular car I bought off the lot in 1978 so modding it doesn't make me nervous. Believe it or not, I'm also figuring out how to fab in a T-bird IRS in the back of the frame. That, also, looks doable. In fact, the Ford truck guys pioneered that swap.



The goal is to have a good handling car that uses up to date suspension technology within a budget. Did I say I hate torsion bars?

I understand that I do not personally have the skills to do this on my own, but, I DO have the basis for a rough outline of how I'd like to have it accomplished. 23 years in the Air Force have taught me how to delegate tasks and manage a project to completion. Yeah, I'll keep you posted.

Greg
Posted By: fstfish66

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 08/20/09 01:18 AM

i have heard that the T-BIRD & COUGAR have a rear IRS,,mounted via a subframe,,,never really seen one,,wonder if that could be made to fin under a 40 dodge,,
Posted By: Greg55_99

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 11/29/09 04:22 PM

Well, I'm pressing on. Picked up a couple of RWD GM G-body floor pans yesterday from a Turbo Regal guy for $150. The GM G-body is similar in dimensions to the Mopar F-body but has channels and mounts to take a full frame. The idea is to marry one with the other for my Volare to take the Ford frame. The coming months should be interesting....

Greg

Attached picture 5633982-G-Body_floor_44.JPG
Posted By: Greg55_99

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 11/29/09 04:40 PM

"The Plan" as it stands...

Greg

Attached picture 5634007-CrownVic_plan.jpg
Posted By: RodStRace

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 11/29/09 04:42 PM

1. Handle and budget in the same sentance means you are deluded. Say you fast forward to the thing all done and sorted. You now have a great toy. Do you have the money to take it to the track, put gas, tires and brakes on it, and afford the things that break and need upgrading?
2. Why does every budget build start with "I'll just stuff another frame/suspension under it?"
If you really want a great handling car, design and build a great suspension for the vehicle! There are circle track and road course suspensions that would fit the bill out there.
3. Why do these also always start with "I want to make my (insert low dollar car) handle"? For the money involved to do it right, you could buy a used dwarf car that will be lighter, faster, handle better, be cheaper to maintain, and easier to transport and work on. You could also learn how to drive better in a known chassis and have more chances to run it.

All of this sounds like I'm against your current path, and that's because it sounds like you are trying to build a big, heavy unibody car by adding a separate frame and suspension with mods to fit the body (more weight and changes to the suspension), for little money. If you really want to build, study building and you will see that NO ONE builds a great handling car by starting with a big heavy unibody. They start with the frame that is designed for the drivetrain, brakes and suspension, then add the smallest, lightest body needed.
Posted By: Greg55_99

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 11/29/09 06:41 PM

Quote:

1. Handle and budget in the same sentance means you are deluded. Say you fast forward to the thing all done and sorted. You now have a great toy. Do you have the money to take it to the track, put gas, tires and brakes on it, and afford the things that break and need upgrading?
2. Why does every budget build start with "I'll just stuff another frame/suspension under it?"
If you really want a great handling car, design and build a great suspension for the vehicle! There are circle track and road course suspensions that would fit the bill out there.
3. Why do these also always start with "I want to make my (insert low dollar car) handle"? For the money involved to do it right, you could buy a used dwarf car that will be lighter, faster, handle better, be cheaper to maintain, and easier to transport and work on. You could also learn how to drive better in a known chassis and have more chances to run it.

All of this sounds like I'm against your current path, and that's because it sounds like you are trying to build a big, heavy unibody car by adding a separate frame and suspension with mods to fit the body (more weight and changes to the suspension), for little money. If you really want to build, study building and you will see that NO ONE builds a great handling car by starting with a big heavy unibody. They start with the frame that is designed for the drivetrain, brakes and suspension, then add the smallest, lightest body needed.



I honestly thank you for your inputs. To answer some of your observatons:

I am well aware that of what things cost. And yes, I can afford it. I am also not deluded. I am fully cognizant of what it would take to do what it is I'd like to do with the car I have. Understand, my car has a lower end that is rusted away. From where I sit, repairing what I have is not much more difficult than what I wish to do. I fully understand there are trade offs in any build. I am willing to take the gamble.

I've got the money honey.. and I've got the time...

Greg
Posted By: sixpack4spd

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 11/29/09 09:17 PM

Quote:

I've got the money honey.. and I've got the time...

Greg



Now I'm jealous! Have fun with it. I'd like to see it when you're done.
Posted By: poorboy

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 11/30/09 03:05 AM

I guess this is the point where I'm confused.

If you intend on putting a full frame under your F body car, why not just build the frame, cut out your existing floor pan, and install your body over the frame. Then fab your own floor pans instead of patching in some already rusting junk? I suggest that in your process that you at least consider a 6 point roll bar (a cage would be much better imho), one that has a hoop behind the front seats, and 2 forward braces to the frame at the front suspension mounting points, and 2 rear braces to the rear suspension mounting points. If your serious about handling, this should be the mininum requirement, just the frame alone will flex corner to corner without the upper bracing even a 6 point will prvide. The car body, esspecially since your changing the floor is not going to be much aid in stiffing the frame. If you want a street racer, build it like a racer, frame, roll cage, and added body. I can tell you from past experence that it is a lot easier to adapt a body shell to a well designed frame then it is to adapt a well designed frame to a specific body. Most of the latter I've seen were somewhat less then desired and somewhat less then the best system available.

Since your going through all this work, why not just install one of the many Mustang II aftermarket suspension systems out there or simply go to a front strut suspension? Those are already proven and would probably more cost effective then paying a person capable of building and working through the issues that will most likely come up through the process of building a 1 of version.

Not trying to throw a blanket on your party, just asking a few questions to clear things up in my cluttered mind. Otherwise, carry on, keep us posted, I'm never too old to learn something. Gene
Posted By: RodStRace

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 11/30/09 03:23 PM

I'm glad you took my comments as constructive, if a bit harsh.

I still don't understand why you don't just skin your Volare and put it on this
http://www.racingjunk.com/category/77/NA...ng-Chassis.html

Better brakes, better center of gravity, sorted proven race parts, etc.
Posted By: patrick

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 12/03/09 08:25 PM

if you want it to handle, first thing, dump the big block and go to an aluminum headed small block or a genIII hemi.

firm feel makes upgraded T-bars for the F/M/J's now. even without them, my 5th ave handles very adeptly with cop spec rear springs, cop spec front sway bar, and a 1" rear bar....

as far as the Panther (crown vic/grand marquis) to F/M/J, the widths are a lot more different than you realize.

if you park an F/M/J next to a late model panther, it is quite evident. quick search on the intertubes show F/M/J's in the 72-74" overall width department, late model crown vics are more than 78".

if you look at the F/M/J's, the front suspension is ~ 61-62" wheel mount face to wheel mount face. the crown vic is more like 67". but the track is only 2" different you say? well, the F/M/J's use a ~+6mm offset wheel (80's M's use 15x7's with 4.25" BS, which is +6.35mm offset. crown 04-up crown vics use a +46mm offset rim....so you get over of 3" of track width reduction by wheel offset on the crown vic already. good luck trying to find a +70mm or so rim....

now this swap (at least the subframe) might be the cat's meow for a late B or a C body, which are significantly wider than an F/M/J.....

I think you'd be better off and cheaper in the long run building a custom chassis, or using an alterKtion, or looking for a wrecked vette and stretching that frame to fit, or sectioning the body to fit...a C5 (97-05) wheelbase is 104.5", a C6(06-present) is ~106". overall width for the vette's are ~73".

C5s/C6's also weigh ~3300 lbs, so stock spring rates may be very well matched to an F body.....
Posted By: Greg55_99

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 12/04/09 12:36 AM

Thank you for the inputs Patrick. On the subject of width. I know the Crown Vic body is much wider than the F\M\J body, however, several months ago, I got down on my hands and knees in a parking lot with a buddy of mine and a tape measure to verify the total front width of a Mercury Marauder. Looks just like this one.



From outside tire to outside tire comes out to 72" with the wheels shown. My Volare is a touch over 73" at the widest point of the front fenders. I can get another inch if I can scarf up a set of Super Coupe or Kit Car fender flares. So, I believe I'm still in the ballpark.

Greg
Posted By: rabid scott

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 12/04/09 06:44 PM

I'm still interested in seeing this come together, hurry up and get to work!!

For reference, what's the frame width on a Crown Victoria where the front suspension bolts in? Does it bolt it at an angle? I'm wondering if this might be a hot swap for one of my old Ford truck friends...
Posted By: patrick

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 12/04/09 07:30 PM

he probably got the idea from this thread on another board, putting the crown vic suspension in a '67 furd truck

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/716058-buildup-06-crown-vic-front-suspension-into-67-f100.html
Posted By: Greg55_99

Re: F (for "Ford") body frame swap questions - 12/04/09 08:03 PM

EXACTLY! My original thought was to swap in just the Crown Vic front suspension, but then it occured to me... The back end is a pretty nice set up as well... Why go halfway....

Greg
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