How to make a early Hemi a good cruiser ?

Kind of eyeballing a street rod with a 354 that needs a bunch of work to make it “done”.

Anything to eyeball deeper ? I heard that the heads are fragile bone stock using unleaded fuel. Also looking for something with MPG as a concern ... as I really want to really DRIVE IT.

first thing ya need to do, is pick up a copy of Tex Smith's "The Complete Chrysler Hemi Engine Manual"" by Ron Ceridono.
it's been out of print for a while, but i think you may be able to pick up a copy on the bag. maybe elsewhere ? i haven't looked.

don't know what to tell ya on mpg. either adapt an A518 or use a gearvendor. stock engines in the cars they came with were not known for gas misers, but weren't too bad for the times.
put in a lighter vehicle, it would definitely help, but by how much, who knows ?

as to the unleaded gas issue, hardened exhaust valve seats would be a good idea, however, unless you are beating on it at the drags, or stop light to stop light, this may not be entirely necessary. chrysler used way better material in their engines than did the others, and you may be able to skip this step unless the seats are beat in bad, or the valves are burnt up.

and don't forget this : "hemis = $$$". they are not an inexpensive engine to build.

omplete Chrysler Hemi Engine Manual

ouch

84 beans shipping !! ... oUcH

I Don't know about the book, looks pretty high $$$ to me for old info. I would think you could get a lot of that info off the net unless owning the book is important to you.

I read someplace that the early Hemi's came from the factory with stainless steel exhaust valves. If that is true, the seats are the only thing you would need to worry about. If the valve seats are in good shape, it takes the unleaded fuel somewhere around 75K before any damage is suppose to occur, and then it will depend on how hard the motor was run. If the motor you are planning on using has already been used on the street, it might be wise to get stainless valve seats installed, and make sure the exhaust valves are still stainless.
My son had a factory 54 331 with the 200 HP motor. His 4bbl motor got somewhere around 15 mpg, but the 200 hp was less then impressive in this day then it was in 54. That 200 hp motor was the highest HP rated production motor at the time.

There are 3 different versions of the old Hemi and the cubic inch displacement changed often, getting bigger as time passed (51-58 production time for the Chrysler version)) in each division. Very few parts will interchange between the 3 versions, so you need to know the year and the brand of the old Hemi you are looking at.

A Desoto version was the smallest cubic inches and the lowest HP. It is also the hardest one to get performance parts for.

The Dodge version was the middle in cid and HP. though not easy (or cheap) some performance parts are available.

The Chrysler version is the grand daddy. Its the biggest and the most HP. There is a pretty wide aftermarket support for the Chrysler motor, but anything Hemi is expensive.The early Chrysler motors had an extended bell that caused issues with some transmission issues. 53 was the dividing year, but it seems no one was quite sure when the change over took place, a 53 could have an extended bell, or the "normal" bell. The transmission bolt pattern of the late 53 and newer is the same as a small block Mopar, but an adapter/spacer is required to make the modern transmissions work. Gene

even the book = $$$$
search the web for info instead.

i was told chrysler already was using hardened valve seats in the first hemis-------add electronic ignition and an electronic injection------the 354 head is the best of that era and was copied by hot heads....bolt on a 518 tranny.....

www.hothemiheads.com is a great place to start.

Check the sides of the block for cracks. The heads have NO issues. Some valve seats were induction hardened, some had inserts.
We use 10:1 in virtually everything that leaves the shop and modern fuel is not a problem. Mopar electronic ign is best system IMHO.
New cam cores are usually available from the 'big' guys.

Yes, some parts can be expensive so shop around.
Send an email or call if you have questions. hemi.parts@yahoo.com

The heads should not be a problem. All the early hemi heads I've personally dealt with have had factory installed hardened exhaust seats. You might want to inspect the valves closely however as many of the early hemis also used sodium filled valves and any pitting on the valve especially where the stem is welded to the valve head should be replaced.

If the engine hasn't already been rebuilt pay special attention to ensuring the rocker shafts are cleaned on the inside and the oil passages in the rockers are also cleaned. Also removing the original check valve and using a bypass plug and late model spin on oil filter adapter is a good idea.

I also like the Mopar electronic ignition. Kits are available but it's also easy to convert the stock cast iron distributors to electronic using small block electronic internals and rotor (and 56 and up distributor cap). My experience with the early Hemis is that they are a little coldblooded when the temperature drops but an MSD box helps with that.

The BB Chevy water pump conversion is also not a bad idea especially if you travel far from home......a replacement for the Chevy pump is a bit easier and quicker find than an original if the pump goes toes-up.

As far mileage the old Hemis can do pretty well depending on gears/tire size and transmission. My 57 Plymouth with a .060 over 354, A833 overdrive 4 speed and 4.10 gears got 20 MPG @ 75MPH with the AC on when I was running the Tri-Power. I converted to dual quads on a stock 57 intake a couple years ago and it dropped to about 17 MPG.

I've never checked the mileage on them 37 Dodge Pickup......(1955) 331 Hemi, Weiand Drag-Star 6 X 2 intake and Dana 60 w/4.56 Gears. I'm running a 46RH with a Compushift controller to control the lockup and OD functions in that one. Even with the 4.56 gears it will cruise comfortably at 75 MPH.

Both vehicles have proven to be very reliable and the 57 Plymouth has made two 4000 mile trips to Illinois and back.......and I'm planning on doing the trip again next year. I haven't been much more than 50 miles away from home in the 37 but that's more a case of this fat old body stuffed into the small cab of a 30s truck has more problems than the truck does.

The 1955 300 motors are the only stock Chrysler passenger car motors that I know of that had hardened seats in them from the factory.
I believe all the H.D. truck and industrial 354 C.I. Firepower type Hemi motors that had 1/2 inch valve stems in them had hardened seats in them along with sodium filled exhaust valve stems
I'm not sure if Dodge used any 331 C.I. H.D. motors or if Chrysler even offered them in that size C.I. in the H.D Dodge trucks
All the 1954 Chrysler passenger car 331 C.I. motors I've seen didn't have the extended bell housing on them like the 1951 to 1953 Chrysler 331 C.I. motors had, which was about 5 1954 motors
As far as making that motor a good cruiser that is what Chrysler engineers design those motors for, not racing
I loved the 1955 Chryselr New Yorker motor I had in my first real hot rod, a 1934 Ford pick up that had been chop and channel with a custom made sheet metal bed on the stock 1934 frame with the early ford drive train in it back in the mid 1960s
I broke a lot of stock Ford drive train parts with that truck once I put a set of 8.20x15 inch 7 inch wide Casler cheater slicks on it

the flathead sixes had hardened exhaust seats not sure why they would do that to the flatheads but not the hemis.

Motors ,made before the early to mid 1950s with the harden seats was because gasoline didn't have any lead additives or and anti knock additives in them until around 1954, I think

TEL has been used as a gasoline anti-knock additive since the 20's. In WWII it's use allowed aviation gasolines to reach as high as 150 octane. In 1921 GM patented it's use as an anti-knock additive and called it "Ethyl" hence the phrase "fill it up with Ethyl".

I was told by a petro chemical engineer in the early 1970s at the old Orange County drag strip that one of the local petro refinery in Wilmington, CA had helped develop TEL and was still working on that product. He said that most American gasoline selling company had not used that additive until the early to mid 1950s
One of that company engineer employ had a 1962 Dart M.W. car that they used as a test bed at the tracks and on the roads testing different mixtures of additives.
The environmental anti smogger activists kill that program didn't they
I can remember buying and racing with 130/145 Av Gas for around .35 cents a gallon back then before the first gas crunch, regular and premium where under .30 cents a gallon including the road taxes

Who knows why Chrysler put hardened seats in the flatheads, probably belt and suspenders engineering.

Probably stopped in the 50's as a cost savings since TEL took care of it the issue anyway. I understand Chrysler was feeling the financial bite then.

that financial bite is what caused chrysler to build the poly heads and mount them to hemi blocks----it took awhile to develop a cheaper poly block ........

The first Plymouth V8 made in 1955, was 301 C.I., I believe, was the first poly head only block, correct?
I'm thinking the Chrysler Windsor and Saratoga cars may have had poly heads on them before 1955 I seem to remember hearing about those cars having a 301 C.I. motor in them in 1954 to 1956, also but not the same as the little Plymouth poly motor, that you could use the Firepower Hemi heads on them if you needed or wanted a small C.I. Chrysler Hemi head motor
I don't know anyone who did that, I sure didn't

there is a story out there about a street racer that took a bored and stroked 392 block and capped it with poly heads--and the poly heads were a good flowing head in the day-----he street raced telling everyone he had a stock poly with a 4 barrel-----after wins he usually had to lift the hood to show the motor because he was accused of lying----just looking at it you couldnt tell....

Minor clarifications..
The first Plymouth only engine, the 'A' series, was 1956 at 277 cubic inch.
The Dodge based Poly engines, 241 and 270 overlaped the A engine into 1956 in the Plymouth car line.
The Chrysler 'Poly' engine was the Spitfire and was first used in the 1955 Windsor as a 301 ci. This is a poly head on a Hemi block. This is NOT the same as the Plymouth 301 which is an A engine. In 1956 the Spitfie used the 331 block and in '57 and '58 was a 354.
The Dodge based Poly can be converted to Hemi.
The Spitfire can be converted to Hemi.
The Plymouth A series cannot be converted.

Is there a LOGICAL explanation for why the engineers at the time (and latter) had such a proliferation of different unrelated engines ... other than LSD in the water cooler?
For the average klutz (me) it is impossible with out a cheat sheet to keep this all straight`, ... it gives me a headache!

Engineering? Probably not. More like a marketing decision when you wouldn't dare sell a top of the line Chrysler with the same engine as a lowly Plymouth.

Even GM and Ford had totally different engines for their various makes. Keeping up with the joneses I suspect.

It is unreasonable to apply the ideological thoughts of today to the events, and the way companies did business 70 + years ago. We do not live in the same world they lived in then. We don't live in the same world that existed when the Mopars we so loved were rolling off the production line in the 1960s and the 1970s either. The fact is, most of the stuff that was common even in the early 2000s no longer exist today. Any 20 year span in history has a different life style and has more things different then it does have things that remain the same as the previous 20 year span. Gene

And thinking backwards does not work. You have to start 10-12 years earlier and look forward. Then what happened over time seems to make better sense.

GM started going wobbly in 1975 when they put Chevy engines in some Oldsmobiles without informing buyers. Ford started putting Lincoln 430's in T-birds (optionally) in 1959. They're all about as pure as New York snow.

Doc, the Early Hemi Guide of Death part 1 has a lot of great info that would be helpful for you.

Early Hemi Guide of Death part 2

By all means, SNAG THAT HEMI! You need that!

Damn guys ... sorry I missed this until now. Some good info HERE ....

H J .... pic of the car below but I’m a bit flustered trying to find out what the guy wants to do with it.

Hey, all that Hemi coupe needs is another set of wide slots and tires on the front like what are on the rear, then get rid of that design on the door and put a number there. You will have what most of the dirt track coupes looked like when I was a kid. Gene

I agree, ditch the graphics.

EZier said than done !!

My concerns is the damn 4 link with steel bushings and a steep gear in it PLUS the lack of any type of interior ... and other things ... like nothing as far a gauges but oil pressure and of course no AC or cruise ....

AC or cruise ? in a HoT rod ?
ReaLy ?

Yes oleHam2! ... in pAraDiSe you need stuff like that - NOT massive HEATERS that are needed in places- NORTH of COLDER !!

I don't see anything here that can't be changed or added. Certainly a Hemi in that light body can afford to a give up a little power to run an AC unit that can be bought through several aftermarket sources. The steel bushings in the 4 link can be changed to rubber bushings and the rear gear is just a gear swap, or a different rear end swap. Aftermarket gauges are easy, and the interior will depend on how fancy you think you need it. I use a lot of junk yard seats, they can be bought pretty cheap, and a wrecked late model mini van has some nice seats that are comfortable and will fit in that car easily.

Seats, interior,(junk yard) insulation ($300-400), rear end with good gears (used), rubber bushings for the 4 link, a good set of American made gauges www.speedhut.com), a cruise control can be added (for around $350), and an aftermarket Ac unit (can probably easily get done for somewhere around $1500 complete)for around $3,500 total without cutting many corners, and being watchful can probably be done for $2000 or less. Of course if you need someone to do it all for you, it could cost over $10,000.
All that would be figured into what your paying for the car. A driveable Hemi coupe should be worth $15,000-$20,000 as this one sits if it has a decent body and isn't cobbled up. I doubt it could be built for less then that. Hopefully your looking at this with reasonable expectations. Gene

poorBoy .... yurr now talkin richieRich !!

First - IMO - that 4 link in any way set up is not a very good streeter combination. INTERESTING way the 4 link was installed - it had worn out leaf springs on it and he was convinced to put a 4k$ link on it to cure that fault !!

So he has to TRY and recover that cost somehow !

Almost forgot a q for you pB .... there are rubber bushings for a four link ? I was aware of the hard poly ones - but STILL a hard ride from what I know. I think the guy was taken advantage of - he could have fixed the issue with a couple of rebuilt leaf springs

Ain't no richy rich here, just someone trying to keep up with the times. It doesn't take long to add up a pile of money in Hot Rods these days. I have a 90s Dakota here, just replacing all the brake stuff with factory style replacement parts added up to nearly $1200 in parts alone last summer, I was shocked! The price tag on a rebuilt 50s Hemi is real near $10,000, and that doesn't even start on the car.

I haven't messed with 4 links for several years. There used to be rubber bushings available, but who knows these days. I suspect a google search would show if some were available, if a guy were interested. I'm not. The hard ride with the 4 link probably isn't because of the poly bushings, its probably because of the coil over springs with too much spring jacked into them. I wouldn't expect a soft ride, but a guy should be able to make it tolerable.

Sure wouldn't be hard to put a pair of leaf springs under the car. I'd probably look for a new matched pair with the appropriate spring rate for the car, which is probably pretty light. Then just add the brackets where you need them, lots more options then. That might be cheaper then finding rubber bushings for the 4 link. Gene

10k$ on a bone-stock - not HP - rebuild ??!!

What’s your grocery list on that ?

My thirtyone Plymouth coupe hot rod has a 4-link with solid spherical rod ends. No rubber, no poly. I think it rides fine. I did experiment with different rate springs in the coilovers to get it right.

Solid STEEL ? There’s no rattling? .. I think the diff between my potential car and yours is yours is a Drag Week car and mine is jsta pure cruiser.

But after your post maybe the plan would be to try poly ORE make up some out of a hard rubber ...like a hockey puck.

The choice of a 4 link IS DONE and I don't think it would be worth the $$$ to change it to leaf springs.

so when do we see you out CrooZiN' DoC ?

Still in negotiations... BUT HERE is another option... I might need something like THAT to spank that LooneyCanadian !

Actually, instead of harden seats go with stainless valves. May cost more buy they really hold up from years of use. Been doing it for years.

Stupid money

They didn't know any better. They thought they were improving things. They didn't understand that they were polluting the production line until some point in the 70's when the Japanese started to kick their rears. Then they figured out that they didn't have to change everything every year.

I think 60's is more when they last consolidated the engine lineup, heck even before the proliferation of Hemi's and Poly's Chrysler essentially had two engine lines, the 23" flathead and the 25" flathead sixes. The small 6's got put into Plymouth's and Dodges, where as the big 6's went to Desoto and Chrysler and Dodge trucks. Canada was another story though.

I have an empty engine stand just waiting for an early Hemi.

I had an early Hemi for a while, that better be a really good engine stand.

NOTHING happened with that 35 ,.. he just disappeared....probably didn’t like that comment I made about the HOSING HE GOT on that 4 link rear end he paid 3k$ for !


But I did get a Jugs engine stand that should handle even a huffed Hemi !

i have a 55 dodge 241 hemi apart on the shelf i should get rid of. i'll never do anything with it.

Yur up early !

R u sure you could find ALL OF IT ?

You got an intake that I could put a Plastic Fantastic on it ?

the intake is just for the original 2 barrel DoC.
you CoULd stack a bunch of adapters together though...........

Now THAT sounds like a cHeEzY way of doing that !

WaChOo sAyiN' DoC ?
sounds good to me ! ..........

You’ve been talkin to that from Pittsburgher too much

Doc, even the 50s 4 barrel hemi intakes would need an adaptor to put a thermohog on. The original 4 barrel carb base in the 50s is even too small to put a modern AFB on without an adaptor.

You would need to step up and spend a pile of $$$$ on a modern intake for that 50s Hemi if you want a Thermoquad on it. Even the 426 ended production before the Thermoquad came along, you would need to buy an intake or add adaptors to put one on even a 426 Hemi. Gene

pb ... I’m jsta funnin oleHam2 !

Oh I would IMAGINE it would take A BUNCH of work to adapt that carb to any early Hemi intake .....and NOT to a valuable 4 bbl intake.

THEN to adapt any TQ to a 241 inch motor ??!!

XXXX special secondary jets would have to be made

A couple of Qs ..... what are the cubic inch selection for the early Hemis? 241 the smallest? ... any model or size have a better selection of parts ESPECIALLY pistons and rings ? Any of the selection are an easier adapt to a 62 and up alum 904 or 727 transmission?

the 241's are the smallest.
desoto seems to be the hardest to get parts for.
i think the transmission adapters available "may" be the same for all ?

Wilcap makes adapters to fit just about any trans to an early hemi

http://www.wilcap.com/Hemi.html

THX S .... THEY are mighty PROUD of those adapters

Upon some deep thought earlier and an email ....is there something to an EZ adapt of a poly 318 trans to a 1st gen Hemi ?

Doc, if you want to play with 30s & 40s Mopars with a Hemi, you have to part with some money. Even building them yourself from a pile of parts is expensive.

The 50s Hemi motors have the same bellhousing bolt pattern as a small block Mopar, but the issue is the tail end of the crankshaft sticks out about 3/4" and the flywheel or flex plate bolts have to thread into the crank. Any adaptor needs to space the trans back, and still leave room to thread the bolts through either the flywheel or the flex plate and into the crank. Then, they have to provide a way to hold a starter and keep it in the proper position. Then, after all the design work, they have to get the thing made so they can sell it to you and still pay their bills.

If you don't want to spend the big bucks to have that Hemi, you can always drop in a small block. It only takes about $20 G to build a nice small block 30s or 40s Mopar, if you can do everything yourself. if you have the experience, the equipment, and the knowledge to do it all yourself, and you can work on it 40 hours a week, you may be able to get it built in a year, but probably closer to two years. If you have to hire it out, expect to pay someone's wages for those two years, and pay an up charge on the parts.

its nearly always cheaper to but an already built car and make a few modifications to suit your needs. Gene

Old Lakewood, gusseted and braced. Bigblocks are the only engines that’s been on that stand.

pb .. thx for the efforts ... WHERE is the Major expense here ? .... PROVIDING all the hard parts are there ? .... now HONESTLY... it’s been a while since I’ve built a ground up motor ...

The big expensive parts are about 1/3 of the pile of parts you will need. Its the small stuff that kills you. The stuff you used to be able to pick up at a local parts store now has to be ordered. 10 years ago, $20 could buy you a big box of parts you could hardly carry out of the store, now $100 buys you a hand full of stuff.

I'm building a 49 Dodge pickup, its on a Dakota 4x4 frame and I'm using the 318 from the Dakota. I needed to replace the motor and trans mounts. Cost me $120 at Rock Auto, the cheapest place I could find. The local parts stores were between $50 and $75 each piece, + tax, + a shipping charge, and it would have taken 3 days to get them. We have 4 major auto parts stores here in town, all three had the same prices within a dollar or two of each other, and all of them required sales tax and were going to charge a shipping fee. 3 replacement brake hoses, Rock auto, $100 (tax + shipping included), locally, $50 each (+tax & delivery charges). Add new steel brake and fuel lines, and another $100 bill bites the dust. By the time I get the rebuilt calipers, the new rotors, the new master cylinder, the new rear brakes and drums, I'm going to be another $500-$600 into the brakes (maybe more). it just keeps adding up. New glass for the truck is $722 (the truck had no glass). Weatherstripping to hold the glass and seal the doors, $555 more. New cab to frame rubber mounts, $150. Hell, the gallon of Rustoleum paint, brushes and thinner to paint the frame was nearly $100!

I started with a running, driving Dakota with a rotted out frame (44,000 miles!) I bought a good 4x4 frame, and the 49 truck with all the sheet metal present except the tail gate. I can get a new tailgate for only $475, but I'll build one for a lot less. The metal has heavy "patina" but nothing rusted through. It cost me $600 to get the 49 and the good Dakota 4x4 frame to my house(on top of what I paid for the truck and frame). It cost me nearly $300 to get the title in my name. I'm moving everything from the running driving Dakota onto the good frame, and adding the 49 sheet metal. By the time I have a running driving 49 truck, I'm going to have very near $10,000 in it, and that will be before paint, and with a very minimal interior, certainly nothing show quality, just a reliable driver.

Pictures: First two, the day I got it home. 3rd, mock up on the good Dakota frame. 4th Actually in process. Good frame painted, 318 & trans installed, cab going on for 1st fit. I'm about 3 weeks into the actual build, the 49 has been here since mid April 2019. Gene

another item to consider is your fab skills and equipment needed to exercise those skills.
there are few projects that can be built as "kits", and to my knowledge, mopars are not included.
i know there are body and chassis kits available for a couple 33-34 dodge coupes and pickups [?], but i believe there are fab skills still needed for completion.
then, what about those aggravating things like linkages and stack-up tolerances that prevent things from coming together like they should ?

if a guy wants a cobra, T-bucket, FAB 5 kit, etc, you can put together in your garage piece by piece, one nut and bolt at a time, these are for you. but then again, there are a ton of those already out there.
also, i'm not even mentioning paint, upholstery, and glass. these are skills unto themselves, and may, or may not be doable for joe average.

i'm not trying to come across as a "debby downer", buy a guy has to plan, think, and analyze more than one thinks when going after a mopar street rod.
Gene is the go to expert when it comes to using "stuff at hand", and his advice is spot on and well worth listening to.

my own experience playing with "cars" over 50yrs consists of three street/hot rods [my 33 dodge humpback panel truck 40 year unfinished project, a 47 plymouth sedan, and a 38 plymouth coupe] my charger i have had since 1970, and around a dozen or so ford and chevy street rod builds for friends. i am also a machinist by trade with over 45yrs experience, which helps tremendously.
my point being, i STILL can't get my projects done ! all self inflicted i'm sure.

grab all the advice, knowledge, and help you can from others, and don't let old whiny geezers like me discourage you from your dreams !


PS, keep us updated on your progress please. that serves as motivation to myself as well as others.

You .. an old whiny gEeZeR? ... I thought THOSE in puttsylvania were jsta around Pittsburgher??!!