`56 Plymouth modern front end swap advice

I have a `56 Plymouth car that I would like to put a 360 4-speed in and was considering a whole front suspension upgrade at the same time, maybe Heidts ??. Keeping the outside looking stock .

Any input from anyone that's been there done that would be appreciated.

pismopowerwagon@aol.com

My '56 Plymouth with 360 and 5-speed has a '91 Dakota front clip spliced to the original frame. Modern ball joint suspension, power R&P steering and disc brakes.

Mine has 2" dropped spindles so I don't know how the ride height would be stock.

WOW that make me want to drop it a bit
Front width looks right too.

Very nice

incentive for sure thank you

There are all sorts of mustang II-based front ends out there, such as Heidt's or Fatman, and they have been working for years. I believe with most of those setups you keep your existing framerails. The aftermarket is full of upgrade parts for this basic setup. The same basic setup was used on the Granada so don't let someone tell you it isn't strong enough.

The Dakota swap is very popular here and it looks like that's because it is a good one. People either swap the whole frame or else cut and weld the new front end to the old back half of the frame.

I wonder when Dakotas are going to become scarce, they aren't really valued for much else and they are scarce on the roads right now. Probably quite a few sitting besides barns, though.

The Crown Vic is way too wide for a '50s car and there's no easy way to narrow it, as the crossmember is an aluminum casting. The rack and pinion is another problem. Hard to make it shorter...On the other hand, the Crown Vic would be just right for my '50 Buick, now there's a thought.

R.

Any build pictures?

The work was done by the PO.

Do you use wheel adapters to get away from the 6 lugs Dakota?

Any idea what year donor truck is preferred?

Thanks

Andy

Thanks I like the Dakota idea

My lugs are 5 X 4.5" so it might be a '90 clip or rotors were changed...junkyard receipt says it was a '91.

OK so I will look out for a regular 5 4.5 truck
thanks for great pics

There is a one or two year overlap where the 6 lug rotor/hubs can be switched for 5 lug rotor/hubs. After that the suspension changed and it isn't easy at all. But it seems to me that the later Daks had wider tracks and wouldn't work as well anyway.

R.

5 lug Dakota were 1988 through 1990.
6 lug Dakotas started in 1991 and were present through the end of the truck line.
The 1991 through 1996 Dakota 6 lug stuff could be swapped by simply buying the 5 lug rotors on the front, and replacing the axle shafts (same size axle, the different sizes do not interchange) & drums on the rear.

In 1997, the front rotor, & bearing design was changed (along with the body change that appears to look more like the full size trucks). Converting from a 6 lug to a 5 lug is a major operation and not worth the effort. If you want 5 lug, get a 1996 or older frame to convert, or a 1990 frame with the existing 5 lug stuff. Gene

Thanks again everyone for all the info

it really helps

OK its not a Dodge I oops it a Plymouth Plaza I got excited with a new project. Found a Dakota the other day also. So here we go!!

Plaza straight six is suppose to be good runner so I will test it out where it is and if good I have `40 that could use it.

Looks like a great place to start from. That will be a cool ride. Gene

Found a decent truck for the swap, it has PS. PB. at least so those parts will come in handy. Dang it even runs so I can move it around at the shop tell I am ready. I have lots of measuring to do, better get a new tape measure ready.

Anyone need a service bed ? LOL

The service bed might be worth the hassles of a Craig's list ad, you sure won't need it, and its probably only worth $25 in scrap these days.

We will be watching the build process! Gene

Those Service Truck Beds make killer trailers I built a fleet of them years ago for my workers out of old utility trucks.

Rickster

I suppose if your only using the front clip, making the utility box into a trailer would be very hard. Getting them titled here in IL is getting to be a challenge these days. Gene

Saturday my wife and I started the flat six just to see if it would fun before we pulled for another project, ran real well so maybe just a minor rebuild or ?? .

And we took front clip off for a better look at the frame and good cleaning. She looks solid, I can start to see the similarities between the two frames now. Nice being a 3 on the tree car "it's got three pedals!!" since we are adding a 4-speed to the 360.

Don't know if these will be any help but they're pics of the frame splice on both sides of my '56.

All these pics are VERY helpful John Thank you
Keep em coming

A500 out of the Dakota can go in my `67 340 Dart too, yeah buddy ,!! good read on this thread about this conversion from others.

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post1737636

When are you going to get the Dart done?

Right now it is my daily driver spot primer and all LOL but as far as doing the trans swap I imagine soon after I get it out and have some open rack time in my shop.

Time to clean er up now, just greasy luckily.

That last shot is golden for those that have an old flathead car and want to know what is the issue with the steering when swapping in a V8. Notice how much of the box and column is in the same area of the exhaust on a V8. That's why people keep mentioning A body exhaust manifolds and moving the engine over a bit to the right.

Sticks way out there for sure

Hopefully I can find someone needing these `56 parts I am not going to use.

`56 frame dimensions

I know you aren't going the Mustang II route, but FYI, the Granada doesn't use the Mustang II design front suspension, but rather is a modified version of the high mount coil design originally developed for the 1960 Falcon and later used in the original 1965-1973 Mustang and 1962-1971 Fairlanes and Torinos.

The Mustang II suspension was used in the subcompact Pinto and 1974-78 Mustang and Mercury equivalents

Before we loose the front suspension we rolled it outside for some scrubbing, I think it shined up pretty sweet. Simple green and a pressure washer and a brush. Roller er back in.

looking good andy!

I see you are going with the dakote swap, for others the 2003-2008 IIRC crown vic set up is a very good one as well!!!

Hi buddy

It the use of Mopar parts the best I can that is stuck in my head

?

That was before my 2nd cup of coffee

I would like to keep the `56 suspension all Mopar in other words

I was more suggesting it for others as an alternative, In my area that is an easier find than a Dakota frame that is not seriously rusted!

I was surprised at how hard it was to find Dakota so I see your point. We do not have the rust problem here unless you park your car outside very near the ocean. This Dakota was the first I saw close by that drove so I could move around due to lack of space at my shop, plus it had the OD transmission I wanted for my Dart.

Cash for clunker program I bet got most of them, so that means allot of good frames got crushed EEEK

My R/T was bought new in Marietta, Ohio it must have not stayed there long or just sat in a garage because it had just tiny bit of rust behind right rear wheel well. I bought it in Colorado in `82

The Crown Vic subframe has a wider track then a Dakota, which becomes an issue on many older cars & trucks. Around here its easier and cheaper to buy a running Dakota then it is to buy just a frame, but yes, you will want to look at the Dakota frame for rust before you part with your money. Areas of concern are mostly between the wheels on the lower part, especially near the trans crossmember and the joint area near the channel & the box joint. Don't completely condemn the frame if there is rust in those areas, if the rest of the frame is pretty clean. The bottom sections can be replaced with 1/8" flat stock. Your probably welding on the frame anyway. Like most modern stuff, they created a location where water can get in, but can't get out, so rust begins and self feeds. Gene

I cut it way long just to get the old out of the way. That was fun

Time to disassemble Dakota some more I have the front sheet metal off.

coming apart now

I have a 56 Plymouth for about 9 years now .. I put the FMJ mopar front clip in it.. very easy install, especially if you are running a small block,,I bought a whole Chrysler 5 th ave for 200 bucks ,so I took everything I could use..the steering colunm went in like it was made for the 56..My only problem I used an RB 440 ,now stroked to 493 cid..I like this install as it was easy and the car rides very nice... 2 round trips to FL from NJ, and with a gear change it runs low 11's at 120 MPH..( this year I'm looking for 10.90's..) has been shown on here many times)Nr John K your 56 is NICE !! here's mine again ...I hope this comes thru ,, new P/C today ,

Try another picture

This is a very nice `56 dynamite, what rear axle did you use?

Thanks,, My 56 has an 8 3/4 posi. I use a 3: 55 gear for the 1/4 mile and I have a complete 2 : 7/6 center section for road trips...It also has Vintage air cond ,power windows , power steering, disc brakes..Get yours done and send some pictures .. Good luck Larry

Has an 8 3/4 rear, 3:55 gears but have a 2:76 complete center section I put in for road trips..senf some pics of your ride ,, good luck Larry

Sorry to intrude on you post but am curious if you guys have any input on my 47 swap that I want to do. I want to put a R&P in it and not having any luck finding the right people to talk to who have done this. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!! Thank you.

Intruding doesn't bother me, but I would do a search back though some older threads your question might not get noticed on here. I saw two of those at car shows with conversions so I know it has been done. Cool looking cars.

You have a sweet ride! Looks awesome! Thank you for your help. I haven't really figured out how to search for the right thing on here yet.

What are you looking for ,, maybe we can help !!

Time to clean Dakota frame up a bit before chopping it off, it all looks in great shape so far.

Bye Bye Dakota

Putting the A500 out of Dakota aside to put in my `67 Dart when I have time.

Do you know what the 8 3/4 came out of?

The rear end in my '56 is from a '65-'67 B-body (59 1/2" overall width), perches moved inboard to 41" centers.

Thanks for the pic and info John, I was going to mock up Dakota axle which I believe is a 9 1/4 but I haven't gotten that far yet. if not I will go with that 8 3/4.

Is there a reason you put lower shock mount over leaf spring?

I was told the rear was from a 1970 Coronet...I did have to relocate the spring perches..

I assumed the PO used the perches from the original rear end that had the shock mounting studs in them.

Moving right along, got Dakota frame chopped off and in shop before rain comes this weekend(it was outside)

I found some body mount bushings through Andy Bernbaum Auto. It seems a perfect time time to freshen up while apart.

And with the same first name as me they must be pretty good

Great thread, looks good, I am looking at doing the same to my '55 Chrysler Windsor.

Waiting on this kit http://www.engine-swaps.com/Pages/ProductsYear/87.96Dakota.html

Wondering if I need there oil pan too HMMMMMM

They say LA will sit in same location as a Magnum but would rather wait and mock up with it to be sure before welding frames together. Just want to be sure on angle of block and firewall clearance.

Since I had a Magnum block and V6 spool stock mounts were still in place I mocked up with bell housing and all looks good.

Thanks Mirada

Holding the broom up for now


I am pulling rear axle out of Dakota while waiting to see if I can use that on Plazakota also

I was happy the body mounts bolt is not rotted away and didn't break off. New bushing from Andy B. fit real nice too.

looks good - I put a front clip from a 79 magnum on mine in the late 90's but the project got side tracked.

Thanks Cuda,

I got the metal around body mounts straight now, no rust just beat up and bushings in place. Even the special body mounts bolts are still solid, that was a relief.

Now I need to do the biggie and get these two chunks of metal welded together.

nice job on the body mounts !

Awesome project! Keep us posted.

I couldn't take it any longer I had to find out what critters have done to the inside of this heater box. I was surprised to only find some leaves

Now I can test heater core and reseal this part up.

Sure like getting to all this while just standing where engine goes, super easy to do now.

Heater core passed the test so cleaned everything up, fixed heater doors and resealed box and put it back on. The blower motor makes noise so I ordered a new one and will paint that mounting plate then.
Was going to mount brake booster of Dakota but hard to tell where engine will sit so better wait.

Now all the hard to get to things are finished I feel better about welding frame in place now.

Do you have a engine compartment pic you can share ?

Here's a couple.

Thank you John

Getting closer to the weld-a-thon, but not lined up yet though. Inching it closer and closer tell it is right on, over lapping the two frames where I can to make a stronger weld.

I got my wheel base to match original so time to take apart again and clean some metal, then put together and close those gaps. I left them open since it is easier to get apart since it fits very tight together. Then drill those holes out I have marked to plug weld.

Drop spindles are on the way since I like how Johns car sits.

Spindles arrived

Double checking caster to help make sure frame angle is correct.

GREAT PROJECT!!!!!! Nice job. I have a 92 Dakota I just bought with a 318 magnum in that runs like a top. Its going into something. I have a 50 shortbed satudebaker truck but I also have a 35 plymouth 2 dr sedan and this 56 DODGE. I bought it as I knew where a damaged 2 door was that I thought I WAS GETTING. No deal so here it sits.

I love 56s and the Dodge has a ton of chrome. Im looking for a 2 door project.



RUMBLON

Good looking cars for sure, and I love Studies, my buddy has one I put a Camaro sub frame in about 15 years ago he loves it.

What brand are those?

Belltech

I got some welding done Saturday morning when no body is around, shut the doors and turn the tunes up and weld away.

looks good and that definitely won't go anywhere ! [now hopefully, it was done with the clip in the right spot ! ] just funnin ya ! looks good as i said before !

Thanks, I think I wore out two tape measures checking and double check then check two more time LOL

Dakota rear axle is 63" drum to drum
Plaza rear axle is 60" drum to drum

Drats!! was hoping to use Dakota


Whats in yours John?

You just need wheels with the right backspacing. 1.5" more...
Late 300 or Charger or Mustang would be where I'd start.
R.

Do you know what your 8 3/4 is out of Larry? Seems a b-body will be very close in width drum to drum.

So keep with the Dakota and use offset wheels?

Just don't want to be stuck with having to buy too much of a modern wheel if that make sense.

The Dakota axle. She's got some miles on her but I can rebuild if it's width will work . Spring pads are off a bit but that's no biggie to weld new ones.

Are those Dakota wheels on the rear axle now? Original Dakota wheels have the wheel mounting flange about an inch behind the front tire mounting surface (I'll post a picture of a Dakota wheel, front silver wheel is Dakota, rear black wheel is not.)

Early (66-70) B body rear is the most narrow 8 3/4 rear axle (other the the A body 8 3/4 that has the wrong wheel bolt pattern).

Other options: Jeep Cherokee, 73 & newer A Body ( disc brake car has 4 1/2" bolt pattern).
Non Mopar: Ford Explorer 8.8 has 4 1/2" bolt pattern, newer ones have disc brakes, and limited slip with 3:73 gears is pretty common, and with the correct rear end yolk, you can bolt the small Mopar u joint up to it.

Yes they are Dakota stock wheels on the axle pic, I took them off and measured mounting flange to flange and came up with 63" and Plaza is 60" .

Nice looking car you building love that roof line

'65-'67 B-body, 59 1/2" drum-to-drum with perches moved inboard to 41". 15" X 8" wheels with no offset fit easy.

Thanks John for answering my question twice for me, ooops my bad.

[/quote]

Yes they are Dakota stock wheels on the axle pic, I took them off and measured mounting flange to flange and came up with 63" and Plaza is 60" .

Nice looking car you building love that roof line [/quote]

Finished product>

Here are some WMS measurements for those in need. NO, it is not complete and any additions will be appreciated.

http://www.qualityengineeredcomponents.com/?page_id=1023

Yes they are Dakota stock wheels on the axle pic, I took them off and measured mounting flange to flange and came up with 63" and Plaza is 60" .

Nice looking car you building love that roof line [/quote]

Finished product>[/quote]
My Dakota has two silver and two black wheels , is this standard?

Fun looking car

My car had 4 silver wheels, but 2 wheels had junk tires that wouldn't hold air. The 2 black wheels had good tires that held air, and they were larger tires, so they had to go on the back, right? By the time the car hit the street, someone gave me 4, old, matching, Michelin tires. That was when I discovered the rear wheels were also a 1/2" wider then the front wheels. I finally painted the wheels earlier this spring, (after 4 summers on the road), just before I put the new tires on, all 4 wheels are now blue.

The car is a blast to drive. With the 3.9 V6, 5 speed it gets good MPG, and I can drive it all day for around $20! The car is light enough I could get a chirp out of 3rd with the old Michelin 235 x 75 x 15 tires, its got a 3:55 limited slip 8 3/8 Dakota axle (haven't tried it yet with the new tires that got put on last week).

The car is just fast enough to be entertaining without collecting tickets. There is a guy around here that says "Its more fun to drive a slow car fast, then it is to drive a fast car slow." I agree with him.

My wife and I enjoy going for rides in it, we took it on a 135 mile ride today. The car has heat & defrosters and insulation (no AC, we are not AC fans, windows down cruising for us) and is very comfortable riding between about 40 degrees and 90 degrees. Memorial Day weekend we are off on a 2200 mile vacation covering 7 states with this car. The car runs down the Interstate just fine, but on our trip, we are taking 2 lane highways for a slower more relaxing trip. Gene

which direction are you heading on your trip gene ?

NICE !! thank you

Leaving IL on US 36, traveling through MO, KS then moving north in CO to Loveland. Got relatives in Loveland, planning on staying there a few days. Going to tour the Rocky Mountain Nat Park. Then we are heading north through WY on our way to the Black Hills in SD. Planning on spending a day or 2 there, before heading home on US 20 through SD, IA and back to Freeport IL.

16 days, 2200 miles, 7 States, in the coupe! We are intending on staying on two lane highways, and only traveling about 5 hours a day. If there is something we want to see along the way, we intend to stop. We are leaving home May 28. No time restraints other then being home on Monday June 13 for work.
Its been 25 years since we have taken a 2 week vacation! Gene

good for you gene ! sounds like a very enjoyable trip !

Sounds like a great road trip! Keep your eyes peeled for tin.

Trying different engine mounts out, I would like it to sit like this or close.

Looks like you have the 'wrong' block in there...it doesn't look like any 392 I have ever seen......

OOOps I thought it was a little light there.

Before you make a final choice on engine location you might want to install the front end with the core support and check the relative location to the radiator core. Pic below shows my 360 in relation to the firewall and, in this position, the centerline of the water pump shaft is way low in the radiator core.

More good input and pics John thanks.

What headers are those? # stamp on flange?

The headers are Hedman 79540-6. Passenger side fits without dents but the drivers side is close to the steering shaft so it's dented a little. Wouldn't be necessary if the engine sat higher.

Are those Magnum port?

Yes.

I haven't had much time to tinker here but I did chop rack end of Dakota steering column and adapted to Plaza column housing so I could use the spring loaded bearing of the shaft which I like that idea. Now I need to get shafts to adapt together so I can keep stock wheel inside car.

Upper steering shaft spliced together and welded.

Plaza got the front clip back on for a bit to see where I need to trim front Dakota frame horns to clear sheet metal so it will line up again.
The wheels are center of wheel opening...whooopie!!

Fitting wheel back on modified shaft, still not in far enough but just resting there to see if I like it.

Finished making and welding up the core support bracket today.

I will add rubber cushions with final assembly.

that should work. could you show a pic of the engine compartment side of the core support/swaybar mount cross member ? thanks !

Here you go, it is 4" c-channel, I wanted it to be bolted in so any fine tuning the body guy needs to they can shim either at sway bar bracket and center bracket like factory. Kinda like how sway bar tuck's inside it.

Thinking of boxing in bracket I welded to c-channel on engine side, what do you think?

I would box the bracket in, or at least add a center support gusset, it will give the sheet metal more support on a rough road. The open bracket could flex and cause an issue with the rad & hoses om the roads around here. Gene

The wheelbase on that looks great! I've seen way more frame swaps where the wheelbase isn't correct for the body than ones that look like they are supposed to.

As long as your welds are good you probably won't have a problem with the bracket as is. That being said a boxing in the top of the bracket would give it a more finished look and peace of mind for you.

if you mean the bracket used to support the front sheet metal, that would be a good idea, as that would eliminate any chance for it to promote side to side bending forces.

Thanks for input peoples good or bad I like the input, I will box it in when I take front suspension off to rebuild worn parts.

Need to make bumper bracket mounts now. O goodie more welding I like to weld

And, your doing a mighty fine job at it!
Gene

Thank you Gene

I had some time to tear down suspension and cut off four/six banger mounts today.

Fresh coat of paint always looks good to me.

Hi Andy, the short version of a long story is I have a ‘56 Plodge two door wagon and was on the forward looking site and met Gary Sand who sent me to the facebook site which had a link to this site. Still with me? Great thread, love it. I have been building cars for 55 years (I’m 72 now) and by no way mean any criticism or anything other than the greatest respect, just a heads-up that might not even be applicable but might save you some major grief down the road.

In many states and motor vehicle jurisdictions it is not permissible to weld on steering parts and if inspected would be a fail and if involved in any kind of accident probably result in a major lawsuit.

I’m a newbie here but not with cars and life, sorry for any discomfort caused, its not intended. (Canadians are always apologizing) I look forward to reading your thread.

....yeah...not an issue in the US.

Plenty of 'other' counties regulate everything but we're not there quite yet....

I managed to get core support bracket boxed in now I can paint it up.

core support bracket looks good now. it will be up to the task with no worries of flex or unwanted sideways movement.

Thanks
I am going to make some rubber pads and metal shims to get body to line up similar to factory way.

Do you have spool mounts on your car John I cannot tell in your pics you shared? Having some difficulty getting bracket to frame on drivers side to clear rack using spools.

Here is my issue with using the spool mounts at the moment. The rack is so close there is little room to build bracket to frame. Seems I had more room when I mocked up with pad style / early mounts. I go stare at it some more.

Looks to me like you can go straight down with the frame brackets, then add a gusset at the rear of the brackets bracing towards the side, if you want to keep the spool mounts. When we did the 5.9 Magnum into the 57 Dodge wagon, we just used the later 80s sandwich mounts with the plate interlocks. Gene

Anchor 2469 fitting a B250 `88 type Gene? Thanks for input.

http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/dodge,1988,b250,5.2l+318cid+v8,1073449,engine,motor+mount,5552?a=Referer+www.google.com+URL+%2Fen%2Fcatalog%2Fdodge


Sorry not too good at linking

Motor mount link

I haven't been too impressed with Anchor motor mounts myself, rubber comes apart too easy.

I don't know about the brand, but those are the correct mounts we used. I believe ours came from Orilly's or NAPA. We paid more then $1.95 for them! Gene

I was just using that for a sample pic but I goofed that up LOL

I will see if dealer still has them around.

Thanks again

Made this bracket with the flat style cushion, and allot more room now.

Do you think I need to gusset it more? I was trying to gusset where access to the bolts is easy.

Looks pretty stout to my eyes.

Thank you

All new Moog bushings and ball joints through out now, I needed it back on the ground so when I make my motor mount brackets at the frame the engine will be at proper angle. I really couldn't make up my mind with it on jacks and not on it s own wheels.

I am ready to get to work on the rear suspension now after a break and wondering what my options are on leaf springs like what over the counter set will fit or close to fit. I am putting together a 8 3/4 for this.

Who's been there done/doing this?

Thank you in advance

Merry Christmas all

Leaf springs are pretty easy to deal with. You can make up brackets and pretty much mount them anywhere you want them. You just need the center bolt to end up where you want the axle centered in the wheel opening, and be sure the springs are centered side to side and the correct width for your spring perches on the axles. I suppose being square to the body center line would probably be good as well.

Personally, I would go for an over the counter spring set as close to the length of the springs on the rear frame you are using, and support the weight needed. According to the Standard Catalog of Chrysler, the 56 Dodges weighed in between 3,300 and 3,600 lbs, 1,700-1,800 lbs springs shouldn't be much of an issue for a good spring shop.

When I did my 54 pickup, I bolted 1/4" thick 4" x 4' angle to the side of the frame and bolted the spring brackets to the angles. Didn't give me any problems for the 50K miles I drove the truck. Gene

Thanks Gene I will test some B body ones first since I have some.

interesting to see all the contortions on the motor mounts-----just an idea here--if you leave the stock dakota mounts in place you can run the magnum 5.2 or 5.9 motor with the dakota oil pan------you notice that other pan wants to rub on the cross member?----the dakota pan has a smaller sump area because of this......

Thanks for the ideas I need input, this Dakota had a V6 with some goofy mounts.I could go to the wrecking yard and see what I can find more towards what you are talking about and the pan I like that idea also.

Well my customer has pulled the plug on his Plazakota project and wants to sell it now . I have just been storing it for a while now for him to decide and after some thought has made his choice. I am bummed but hopefully someone will finish it. I cannot afford it or I would buy it.

You people have been a great help all along and wanted to thank you.Keep up the build threads, I read them all the time.

Andy