Moparts
Picking Old Geezers Brains
Posted By: Norm
Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/26/13 01:57 AM
I just turned 59 and have always loved the 60's - 70's muscle cars but I found a car I have fell in love with. It's a two - tone copper and beige color 1958 Dodge Royal Lancer Spring Edition. It still has the factory 325 - 4 barrel motor with push button auto. It's been in storage for years and not cranked up in over 5 years. It needs a rear bumper and a hell of a good cleaning but overall pretty nice. Trying to find any and all info on the car. It will be next week before I can go back for pics.
Posted By: poorboy
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/26/13 02:44 AM
Those are BIG cars! That rear bumper is going to be hard (and expensive) to find, as will most any parts, other then drive train. Look for frame rot above and just behind the rear axle. They make great cruisers, and have pretty much all the "modern" underpinnings. Gene
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/26/13 03:04 AM
Very BIG cars! I'm pretty much an A-body guy so they are HUGE to me! I really don't want to correctly restore this car as I always have to HotRod anything I work on. I'm thinking this is a pretty rare car and should be restored correctly. I have access to a 58 392 Hemi so you know it's going under the hood after a good rebuild. I don't plan to cut or alter the body or frame in any way and keep all the original parts/pieces. I will check for frame rot everywhere. Thanks for the info Gene!
Posted By: poorboy
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/27/13 04:39 AM
My view on restored cars is this: If your concerned about the originality of an old car, keep all the stuff you change for the future. Then fix it up and enjoy it. As long as you don't cut it up too bad, it can always be returned to its original format. I suspect that unless this is a super complete and original car, the number of people that are going to be looking for a restored version of this particular car would be relatively low, and they would be expecting to have to restore it themselves. Most buyers want something they can get in and drive.
I vote to build the hot rod, and keep the original stuff you upgraded from for the next guy.
Gene
Posted By: fstfish66
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/27/13 05:33 AM
GREAT FIND,,,,, lets see some pics thjey have a great roof line,,, 325 hemi or poly??
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/27/13 04:27 PM
I totally agree. I know anything is only original once and I have great respect for that but as long as I don't butcher the car then nobody should complain. I plan to upgrade the 325 poly to a 392 hemi w/ dual fours of course, upgrade the brakes to discs all four corners, large sway bars front and rear, maybe lower it a bit, put as much tire under it that will fit and two-tone the paint a hot red and charcoal silver maybe. I think the roof line is the reason I fell in love with this car.
Posted By: Mike P
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/27/13 07:55 PM
Norn, sounds like a good find and nice plan for it.
I've built a couple of 57s (a Dodge and a Plymouth) for myself and worked on several other 57/58s. The 392 is a close to a bolt in as you can get. Just use the 325 Motor Mounts that are currently on the car. Electrically everything should be in the same place so that should all connect bact up. The 392 will bolt to the cast iron torqueflite that's in the car and it should last unless you get really spirited with your driving. AAJ makes a nice front Disc brake conversion that uses the stock spindles and I believe they also have a rear disc kit that reatins the stock splined axles.
I've always just run a front sway bar on mine and was lucky enough to find a couple of 58 Imperials to use as donors.
Properly done the 392 should actually add value to the car over the stock 325.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/27/13 10:47 PM
I was hoping swapping in a 392 would be fairly easy. How strong is the cast torqueflite compared to the newer aluminum torqueflite? I know that a 392 crankshaft extends about 5/8" farther back behind the trans/block mating surface and an adapter flex plate is required and available. Of course I would have to use a smallblock push-button torqueflite and would have to compare the linkage and speedo assembly. We have multiple 60's - 70's A, B, C and E body parts cars and future projects to rob parts from. I had planned on swapping newer front spindles and discs from something newer and also replace the rearend with a newer one piece axle. I will come up with something for sure but you can be sure it will be safe and accurate. I build race cars as a hobby and can fabricate most anything I need. I plan to take pics Monday afternoon even though the car is still in storage. I have to make room in my shop for it yet.
Posted By: Mike P
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/28/13 01:00 AM
Assuming the Torqueflite is in good shape to begin with it’s not quite as strong as the aluminum units but it will take a fair share of abuse especially if you keep the tie size reasonable. The biggest problem is that while standard rebuild parts are around there is no aftermarket support for things like shift kits or stall convertors (but if you feel you need those parts you will probably want to upgrade to an aluminum unit anyway.
The pushbutton TFs (both the Cast Iron and aluminum) are actually shifted by a cable. The only linkage will be the kickdown and it is a pretty straight forward hookup to the later transmission if you want to go that way. I don’t really remember on the speedometer cable as I always replaced the cable and housing with a new one anyway.
You will find the emergency brake is a drum mounted on the back of the transmission and it uses a trunion joint instead of a U Joint. My experience is these are just as strong as a U Joint and at least a while back rebuild kits were still available. Most of the 1962-1964 pushbutton TFs were also trunion Joints but without the emergency brake. Personally rather than go thru the driveshaft changes that would be needed, I would try to find a 1965 (one year only) TF. The 65 TF uses a conventional slip yolk making building a drive shaft a lot easier. Though this was a column shift transmission, the shifter actually still operated a cable. The problem is the valve body shifted just the opposite of the pushbutton units and would require a VB change to one from a 62-64 unit to make it work with the cars original pushbuttons.
The rear end under the car is already a 8 ¼ the only thing odd ball about it is the tapered axels for the rear brake drums and like I said I think a disc brake conversion is available for it. Finally you will also need to modify the rear crossmember as the transmission mount is different between the aluminum and cast iron TFs. If the Cast Iron TF will work for you I think you are going to find using it along with the stock emergency brake and converting the existing rear end to disk is really the best way to go.
As far as tires about as big as you can fit comfortably in back will be a 235/70/15 without doing any frame or inner fender mods.
As far as front brakes, I was converting these cars to front Disc long before any kits were available. I’ve used both mid 70’s C Body 11 ¾” and the smaller A body units. The C Body conversion required changing to the large ball joints and spindle modifications. Both the A and C Body conversions required trimming the wheel stops and shortening the tie rod ends and tie rod sleeves to make them work. The AAJ kit is bolt on and uses the original spindle so no other mods are necessary. Personally I would never go back to converting A or C body brakes to one of these cars again. If you want to I can walk you thru the steps necessary if you want.
If the car has power brakes which will be the bellows style booster, you could continue to use it, but I think you will be stuck with the single pot reservoir. My cars are manual brakes using a newer dual reservoir master cylinder and I personally don’t find it causes any excessive pedal pressure to operate them.
If you get in a bind on finding a rear bumper give me a holler I might be able to dig one up.
For grins here’s a picture of 57 Coronet I did several years ago (dual quad 440 with a 64 PB Torqueflite, 9 ¼” rear end and C Body Discs.
And my current 57 Plymouth (Tri Power 354 Hemi, 833 Overdive 4 speed, 9 ¼” with 4.10 gears and AAJ front Disc brakes)
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/28/13 03:55 AM
Nice cars Mike! I did know that a 65 was column shifted but was actually operated by a cable. I didn't know about the reverse vb though. Actually I do have a 65 poly 318 with trans that we removed from a 65 Belvedere to install a 440 and I also have a 63 Savoy with /6 auto. I will check to see if both trans are 727's. If they are then I will still need to modify and install a cable operated emergency brake cable connected to the newer rear end. I will probably just get the AAJ disc brake conversion and be done with it. Will larger tires fit if offset spring hangers are used on the rear? I might need help finding a rear bumper, I'm not sure yet. By the way I'm amazed that these cars only weigh 3700 - 3800 lbs. I figured they were at least 4500 lbs.
Posted By: Mike P
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/28/13 12:06 PM
Hi again Norm, I had a couple of other thoughts when I woke up this morning and thought I’d type them up while I still remember them.
On the AAJ disc brake kit I think you will find it cheaper to buy just the basic kit (brackets and bearing adaptor) and then source the rest of the parts you need locally….they provide a parts list.
Then there is the steering gear. Most of the ones I’ve come across that have many miles on them have some slop in them and they are an odd ball unit and a real pain to remove. There is actually a huge plate in the drivers floor board that has to be removed and the steering gear and column have to come out thru it as a unit. I would strongly suggest that if there is any question about the gear, remove it and have it rebuilt while you y have the engine out.
There are several options for upgrading the ignition. The 392 has a unique length distributor shaft, and there are aftermarket distributors available along with an adaptor to use a later model unit. I personally prefer to use stock Chrysler parts, and all that is required to convert the original distributor to electronic is to change out the upper shaft, breaker plate and pickup and vacuum advance from a 318 electronic. One new hole will have to be drilled, but that’s minor.
When you rebuild the HEMI, (Hot Hemi heads will probably be your new best friend for a while LOL), you will probably want to convert the oil system over to a full flow set up and a spin on filter. Hot Heads has three adaptors, and unless you really want to use an remote set up, the one you will need to fit the body will be the one the places the filter upside down like the original oil filter is indexed.
A few years ago I was hearing horror stories about the modified oil pumps Hot Heads was selling, so you might want to research that before you make a decision on a new pump. I was able to get stock type replacements for the last 2 HEMIs I rebuilt so I have no firsthand experience with the Hot Heads units.
For what it’s worth, here a picture of the modified cross member (it’s from the 4 speed in my Plymouth but it would be the same mods for a TF). Basically the mount portion of a donor cross member was grafted to the original crossmember.
The last thing I can think of is valve covers. I ordered about the tallest set I could find. They just barely clear the master cylinder, and this is on a short deck 354. This particular style would probably not work with your taller deck 392.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/28/13 07:08 PM
Thanks for all the info Mike! You have a wealth of knowledge on these cars. I can recite quite a bit of knowledge on the 60 - 70's Mopars but this is my first attempt at a 50's. I prefer to stay all Mopar too so converting the distributor is a done deal. I was thinking that a 392 Hemi and newer small blocks had the same length distibutor shaft but I guess I heard wrong. This car will be next in line as I am just at the beginning stages of tearing down a 75 W100 Adventurer Sport Power Wagon short bed. It's a factory 440 power everything that a buddy of mine bought brand new that I have wanted ever since. He finally sold it to me but it needs a full resto but still runs with the original drivetrain. My problem is time and of course extra money but that's everyones story I guess. I am taking pics tomorrow of the car and will try to post them tomorrow night.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/31/13 01:47 AM
Finally got my daughter to post this pic. Can only get 1 picture to load. I recently upgraded to a smart phone and found out how dumb I really am. Car is already in the tear down stage and these are the best pics I could get. The car is positively a spring edition.
Posted By: Mike P
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/31/13 12:13 PM
I have a friend with a 58 Spring Special, he put 413 in it some 20+ years ago. It gets pulled out and driven about once a year. Paint and upholstry are one of those "someday" projects.
Posted By: TrWaters
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 07/31/13 10:44 PM
The small block distributor is a drop in for the Dodge low deck early hemis. All others require a longer shaft.
Melling has reintroduced the M-50 oil pump used in 392 hemis, so no need to fool with adapters. Hot Heads has a lot of parts, but they are not the only ones.
www.trwaters.com has a few items, as do others.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/03/13 05:39 PM
Your friends car is almost identical to mine Mike. I want to keep a period correct engine and no engine has the "WOW" factor as a hemi! I'd like to put some kind of overdrive in the car but will address that at a later date. I just want a good cruiser that I can drive anywhere. The car has factory power steering but has manual brakes and is non-ac. It will have all the creature comforts when I'm finished. Not sure on what type wheels to use. I'm not a full hubcap type of guy. Maybe chrome reverses with baby moon hubcaps. Looking for ideas I guess. It's good to know there are vendors still catering to the old hemis.
Posted By: Mike P
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/03/13 06:33 PM
I hear you about the Overdrive Norm. I’m running the Chrysler 833 4 Speed OD in 57 Plymouth and love it. If I ever went back to an automatic, I think I would use the 518 automatic OD. I think the Imperial Owners club was making a conversion that would allow the transmission to use the original pushbutton shifter which would be a sweet setup. The nice thing is the 518 will use the same adaptor the 727 does.
Getting the “right” wheels for these can be a challenge. JMO but most modern wheels just don’t look right on these cars. The ones I ran on the Gold and white 57 were actually mid 70’s Chrysler road wheels that I modified to use original 57 Dog Dish caps on. If I were to change oner to different wheels I think I would probably go with the Torque Thrust Ds (the mag with a dark center.
As far as AC I took the easy way out on both my Dodge and Plymouth and used era correct under dash units. They work great and I think look appropriate to the car.
By the way the dash on the 57 Dodges lend themselves really well to a 2 tone paint scheme that matches the body color.
If you can’t tell I’m looking forward to watching your progress on the car. LOL.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/03/13 06:57 PM
Killer interior Mike. That is awesome! I don't think that is an original seat is it? If not then what did it come from? I prefer the look of the original under dash ac also but not sure if I will be able to find all the pieces/parts I need to correctly install it. Are you using an RV-2 compressor or whatever style was used in the late 50's? I will probably upgrade to a basically hidden Sanden 134 compressor. I was told that Vintage Air makes a drop in ac system for these cars but I'm sure it is expensive. I was thinking of using the Torque Thrust wheels but not sure if they were period correct. I know that chrome reverses are but not sure of the look. I'm really getting excited over building this car. I guess that building 60's or 70's cars have become ho-hum to me and this car is new to me therefore a new challenge. My wife says I'm acting like a little kid at Christmas. I told her to buy me car part presents then. We will see. I might just have to put the Power Wagon in second place behind the 58!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Mike P
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/03/13 10:50 PM
A 1967 Chrysler 300 that was about to be crushed donated the seats and buddy seat. The passenger reclines and the drivers is power (4 way). The car was a 4 door so the stop brackets had to be removed to allow them to fold forward but that was minor.
As far as the under the dash units I usually pick them up whenever I find them in decent shape. At most the motors sometimes need to be lubed and switches cleaned. Brackets are usually pretty simple to fabricate. The rest of the parts I source locally; the compressor, a receiver dryer and usually a new universal condenser. After I have the components installed I buy the required fittings and hose and custom fit them then have the local Car Quest or NAPA crimp them. When I clean them up I normally paint the case interior body color and that’s about it.
The one in the Plymouth is a really nice MARK IV unit from the early 60’s with a nice chromed metal faceplate and vents.
I did a build thread on another site you might be interested in (it only runs about 5 pages the other pages are on other projects I was doing). As it’s most current post first you need to start on the bottom on page 16 and read it from bottom to top to somewhere on page 12.
This should bring up page 16.
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/journal....=5&reverse=
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/05/13 03:24 AM
That's good info Mike. I'm not worried about fabricating anything I will need for this resto. Once I get into the resto then I'm sure I will need some guidance as to what works best. All my hot rod buddies want me to install a complete late model hemi drivetrain with all the latest technology and suspension. I'm not totally against that but I'm not spending that kind of money the first time around. I'm an old school carburetor type of guy that would rather tune a car by the seat of my pants rather than a laptop!
Posted By: fstfish66
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/05/13 04:51 AM
Quote:
I hear you about the Overdrive Norm. I’m running the Chrysler 833 4 Speed OD in 57 Plymouth and love it. If I ever went back to an automatic, I think I would use the 518 automatic OD. I think the Imperial Owners club was making a conversion that would allow the transmission to use the original pushbutton shifter which would be a sweet setup. The nice thing is the 518 will use the same adaptor the 727 does.
Getting the “right” wheels for these can be a challenge. JMO but most modern wheels just don’t look right on these cars. The ones I ran on the Gold and white 57 were actually mid 70’s Chrysler road wheels that I modified to use original 57 Dog Dish caps on. If I were to change oner to different wheels I think I would probably go with the Torque Thrust Ds (the mag with a dark center.
As far as AC I took the easy way out on both my Dodge and Plymouth and used era correct under dash units. They work great and I think look appropriate to the car.
By the way the dash on the 57 Dodges lend themselves really well to a 2 tone paint scheme that matches the body color.
If you can’t tell I’m looking forward to watching your progress on the car. LOL.
imperial services make an adapter to use push buttons with a non push button 727
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/06/13 04:52 PM
I really appreciate all the great info you guys have given me. As time permits I am trying to put together a good game plan for the resto of this car. I definitely want it to look like a period correct hot rod on the outside but also want all the modern comforts within reason. I should have the car at my shop sometime next week. After a good cleaning I will see if I can figure out how to post more pics.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/17/13 08:47 PM
I still don't have the car at my shop yet but it won't be long. The 392 hemi I had lined up is no longer available. Don't ask. I know of another 392 that's in a late 50's 2 1/2 ton farm truck that runs perfect but the farmer won't get rid of it. I don't blame him. My car has the 325 poly head engine and from what I read the block will also accept hemi heads. Of course the pistons, valve gear, pushrods, etc. would also have to be changed. Is this true? If so which hemi heads and manifolds will work? I just want a hemi under the hood!
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/18/13 12:35 AM
Quote:
My car has the 325 poly head engine and from what I read the block will also accept hemi heads. Of course the pistons, valve gear, pushrods, etc. would also have to be changed. Is this true? If so which hemi heads and manifolds will work? I just want a hemi under the hood!
Dodge Hemi parts are used, not Chrysler, not Desoto.
http://www.hothemiheads.com/hemi_info/hemi_engine_id.html
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/18/13 05:18 PM
So you are saying that hemi parts that came in a Dodge(241, 270, 315, 325) are the only parts that will possibly fit a 58 325 engine. I know that Chrysler and Desoto hemi's are different cubic inches than a Dodge but figured the heads and intake manifolds were interchangeable. If not what were they thinking back then. Oh well, the search is still on! Thanks for the info!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/18/13 07:51 PM
Almost nothing interchanges between Dodge, DeSoto and Chrysler early Hemis. (But some 55-6 Plymouths and some low-line 57 DeSotos used Dodge poly engines.) What were they thinking? Probably copying General Motors, because at that time each GM make designed and built its own engines. Chrysler saw the light by the late 50's; GM finally woke up a couple decades later.
Bore center-to-center distance for the three Mopar early hemi engine families are:
Dodge: 4.1875
DeSoto: 4.3125
Chrysler: 4.5625
Obviously, with cylinders a different distance apart, heads, intake manifolds and cranks cannot interchange. There are also low deck and raised deck versions of the Dodge and DeSoto hemis, and raised port head versions of the Chrysler hemis, so intake manifolds don't all interchange even within the three engine families.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/18/13 10:38 PM
Quote:
So you are saying that hemi parts that came in a Dodge(241, 270, 315, 325) are the only parts that will possibly fit a 58 325 engine.
Correct. Who knows why Chrysler did that when their flathead 6's were pretty much the same across the board.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/18/13 10:47 PM
Well I see why the Chrysler 354 and 392 hemi's are the engines of choice. No wonder they are hard to find! Thanks again for the info!
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/19/13 07:00 PM
Let's not forget the A engine poly, 4.46" bore spacing, which made it all the way to present, IIRC.
There is no reason why a 5.7 wouldn't do the trick. It won't cost any more by the timr you get done buying all those expensive Firepower parts, and it weighs nearly 300 lb less.
R.
(just turned 59 which makes me a geezer, too!)
Posted By: fstfish66
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/19/13 07:14 PM
Quote:
I still don't have the car at my shop yet but it won't be long. The 392 hemi I had lined up is no longer available. Don't ask. I know of another 392 that's in a late 50's 2 1/2 ton farm truck that runs perfect but the farmer won't get rid of it. I don't blame him. My car has the 325 poly head engine and from what I read the block will also accept hemi heads. Of course the pistons, valve gear, pushrods, etc. would also have to be changed. Is this true? If so which hemi heads and manifolds will work? I just want a hemi under the hood!
norm,, sorry to hear you lost the 392..it is true the early dodge,desoto ,chrysler poly motors not the 318 poly are the same block as the hemi,,parts from dodge or desoto or chrysler do not inter change,,except for the dizzy in a few,, you will need the hemi heads and pistons to convert the poly to the hemi,,you can get pistons at egge machine shop,,,new,,, you will need to find a set of heads,,start diging the internet,,,E BAY,,, or join the hot heads forum they have a question,,,and classified section for parts,,www,hothemiheads.com a guy calls him self TRWATERS deals with the early hemis,,he is on this site also,,,i do not know if the intake from the poly will fit the hemi heads,,you would like to think it would,,,if it does,,,and if your intake is a 2 bbl,,, trwaters does a conversion on the cast iron intake from 2 to 4 bbl,, if its a dodge or chrysler hemi intakes are available new aluminum and affordable,,, for the 325 dodge u lucky dog,,,it is the same deck height as the 315 dodge,, i dont know if the valves are bigger from the 315 to the 325, a set of 315 heads can be machined to take the bigger valves if you fine a set of those,,, happy hunting,, and get out your credit card,,,,,
Posted By: fstfish66
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/19/13 07:18 PM
Quote:
So you are saying that hemi parts that came in a Dodge(241, 270, 315, 325) are the only parts that will possibly fit a 58 325 engine. I know that Chrysler and Desoto hemi's are different cubic inches than a Dodge but figured the heads and intake manifolds were interchangeable. If not what were they thinking back then. Oh well, the search is still on! Thanks for the info!
yes what were they thinking,,, that is why the early hemi program ended back then too many differnt parts made it to costly,,so they ended it till 1964 when they put a set of hemi heads on the 426 max wedge motors,,,and said here we come,,,,,
Posted By: fstfish66
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/19/13 07:22 PM
Quote:
Let's not forget the A engine poly, 4.46" bore spacing, which made it all the way to present, IIRC.
There is no reason why a 5.7 wouldn't do the trick. It won't cost any more by the timr you get done buying all those expensive Firepower parts, and it weighs nearly 300 lb less.
R.
(just turned 59 which makes me a geezer, too!)
very true the modern hemi will cost less if you buy it right,,, but nothing has the eye candy or bling as an early hemi,,,
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/19/13 08:00 PM
Exactly! Nothing has the eye candy or bling as an early hemi. The 325 in my 58 Dodge is a factory four barrel and came with dual exhaust. If I can find all the parts necessary for the hemi conversion I will take that route. I prefer a 392 and have not given up on one yet. If I put a 5.7 in then it will be fuel injected not carburetor.
Posted By: fstfish66
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/20/13 06:08 AM
Quote:
Exactly! Nothing has the eye candy or bling as an early hemi. The 325 in my 58 Dodge is a factory four barrel and came with dual exhaust. If I can find all the parts necessary for the hemi conversion I will take that route. I prefer a 392 and have not given up on one yet. If I put a 5.7 in then it will be fuel injected not carburetor.
NORM, not a thing wrong with a 325 dodge,,very sought after motor,,if u look u will find a set of heads they are out there,,cant imagine why no one is re popping heads wit hall the motors out there in hot rods,,rat rods etc,,,some one is gona read this and say WTH,,, if i remember correctly,,if you look in a motor manual book that shows the hemi and poly horse power,,,the poly weighs less and i think puts out a little bit more HP compared to the hemi,,mind boggling i know,, i may have to look in my book and pritn the page,,i know my memory isnt that bad yet,,but the HEMI just has the koool looks,,,and can be made to put out more then stated..if u have a big bank account,,,lol
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/20/13 04:19 PM
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/20/13 04:22 PM
Whatever engine I end up with it will get a complete rebuild. I have drag raced on and off my entire life and have built many race engines for myself and others. This engine will get whatever machine work is needed including balancing. My point is if I'm going to spend that kind of money then I'm going to be very picky on which engine I use. I want a 392 and probably won't be happy with anything else, but................!
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/20/13 04:39 PM
Kinda pricey is right. I would not pay that for a 392 completely rebuilt. In my mind nobody can build an engine better than me! I'm a perfectionist and cover every detail. Machine work is just that, machine work. Find an excellent race type machine shop with a good reputation and stick with them. I understand that early hemi parts are expensive but no more expensive than race parts are. I have multiple engines that I can use including a complete 5.7 hemi with trans and all wiring with only 700 original miles. That would be neat as hell in my car but to me just would not look right. I'm not totally against it though!
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/20/13 04:41 PM
Couple of 392's, again, I know nothing about them.
http://lubbock.craigslist.org/pts/3931110391.htmlAgain, kinda pricey, imo. For me, I'd just put a new Hemi in for these prices.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/20/13 05:18 PM
I hope he means $2500 each which is still too high for a rebuildable core engine. On top of that they are 1138 miles from me according to mapquest. That's over $1,000 shipping one way and would cost me $600 - $700 if I went after them including motel and eats. The 5.7 is sounding better and better!
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/20/13 06:00 PM
You could always see what Craigslist has around you. There was a disassembled 354 for $1600 in the list, but since you wanted a 392 I didn't post a link.
http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/pts/3931531238.htmlPosted July 12 so I dunno if it;s still available, but at least it'll give you an idea as to what people are asking.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/20/13 06:16 PM
Craigslist is usually my go to place for a good deal. Believe me I have been looking. I can find lots of parts for early hemis but not a complete engine. I would rather not piece an engine together if you know what I mean. Especially since very few parts are interchangeable between the early hemis. I have found two leads today by calling other old geezer friends of mine. Both are supposed to be 392's but we will see. One supposedly came out of a 57 Imperial and does say Chrysler on the valve covers but has a two barrel intake. Don't think so!
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/20/13 07:40 PM
Well I just talked to the guy with the 392-2 barrel. The numbers on the block are C51-8-28561. I find that to be a 1951 Chrysler 331-2 barrel with the cast in bell housing. Another lead down the tube.
Posted By: Mike P
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/21/13 06:28 PM
I hope this lets me post, I;ve been having a heck of a time with the site for the last week.
Norm most of the big dodge trucks that had Hemis in them use the 331 or 354 (as far as I know they never put a 392 in a truck or industerial application). These engines will have valve covers marked "Chrysler Industeral" on them an have the dimples for adjustable rocker arms (although all of those I have taken apart actually had hydraulic cams and non-adjustable valve trains. The are usually not marked on the front vally pan rail, but may have a brass tag on rivited to the bellhousing area.
Just a thought, if you can;t find a decent priced 354 or 392 I wouldn;t necesssarly turn my nose up at a 331. her are just a bit bigger than the 325, but have a lot better aftermarket support. In the long run it may be a better option than hunting up heads for the 325.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/21/13 06:41 PM
The 392 in the late 50's Dodge truck is not the original engine. I should have stated that in that post. Sorry! It came out of a 57 or 58 Imperial and was installed back in the 60's. It's been used every year since then and will haul anything they load her up with. I talked to another guy that claims he has a complete 392 minus crankshaft. I was told $500-$600 as is. He said he has had it 40 years tore down in his shop. I will look at it this weekend if the numbers show it to be a 392. He is calling me tonight with the numbers. No telling what I will find as it seems ALL early hemis are 392's if you know what I mean.
Posted By: Mike P
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/21/13 07:25 PM
".......No telling what I will find as it seems ALL early hemis are 392's if you know what I mean....."
Yup just like every small block chevy engine that someone is selling came out of a Corvette.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/21/13 07:46 PM
regarding the 331, make sure you don't pickup one of the extended block ones. I don't think anyone makes an adapter to put any other trans on it.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/21/13 09:24 PM
So far I have found two real 392 hemi's that all of a sudden became very valuable when I showed an interest in them, an industrial 1956 331 hemi that's an irrigation pump engine that might be for sale, a 1951 331 hemi that has the extended cast bellhousing and the 392 I'm getting the id numbers from tonight. I will gladly pay $500-$600 if it is a 392 and not a piece of rusted junk. I can find a crankshaft easy enough.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/21/13 11:15 PM
SCORE!!!!!!! I just talked to the guy with the 392 minus crankshaft and he said the id numbers were 58N17712. I find that to be a 1958 392-4bll out of a New Yorker. I offered $500 he said $700 and we settled on $600. I knew watching Pawn Stars would pay off. It also has the cast bolt on bellhousing with it. Picking it up Saturday. Now I need a crankshaft, dual quad intake, cast aluminum valve covers, etc.,etc., etc.,
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/22/13 12:22 AM
The 1958 392 is known to have a weaker-than-average lifter bore area, so don't go crazy with camshaft and valvesprings.
Congratulations on your find, most everyone who has a "real" 392 is looking for $2500+ for a core. Shoot, most 331s are advertised at $2500!
To take a side trip, I believe Wilcap makes adapters for the early 331s to modern 4-speeds.
R.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/22/13 01:16 AM
My plan is to build a mild street engine just for cruising so I should not have a problem with the lifter bore area. Of course I'm having visions of a belt driven supercharger, some kind of turbocharger or...! I must have some kind of disease or something ya reckon? I have a lot of work to do and need to get busy!
Posted By: dogdays
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/23/13 12:05 AM
http://denver.craigslist.org/pts/3962203195.htmlThis may be your crankshaft. Also check out the Denver Craigslist for other Hemi parts.
R.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/24/13 06:38 PM
Well I picked up the 392 this morning. This engine has been apart for over 40 years and apparently was a race engine of some kind. It has an aftermarket deep sump oil pan with the drag link tube welded in. This pan is not homemade. It also has a rare aluminum B&M Auto-CH7T transmission adapter that adapts a bigblock torqueflite to a 392 hemi along with other early hemis. It is 2 inches wide and uses an early chevy 3-bolt nose starter. I believe this a race only piece. It also has a ring gear cage and aluminum crank spacer. I got two complete sets of rocker arms, perfect valve covers and both heads. The pistons and rods along with the pushrods are somewhere in his shop that he still has to find. All in all a very good start for $600 I think!
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/24/13 09:17 PM
Upon closer inspection it seems the heads are actually 1955 New Yorker 331 heads with 1.94 intake and 1.75 exhaust valves. 392 heads have 2.0 intake and 1.75 exhaust valves. I understand these 331 heads are an upgrade on a 392. I will have to use intake spacers because a 392 is a tall deck and a 331 is a low deck. The engine still has the original 4" bore.
Posted By: Mike P
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/24/13 09:49 PM
Sounds like you did your research already. If they are the "triple 5" heads they are suppose to have a better port configuration than the stock 392 heads, but as you say they will require spacers.
The other option would be something like the old Weian Dragstar 2 piece intake, unfortunately I don't believe the hood would close LOL.
You also want to make sure you get a 57-58 392 HEMI oil pan. as it's the only one that will fit.....the 392 is center sump and looks like the one on the 325 in the car, while the 56 and earlier pans were rear sump.
Edit, I missed your post about getting the engine this morning. The adapter sounds cool, it opens up some more trans options for you. Too bad you aren't closer, I happen to have a 63 or 64 BB pushbutton trans.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/24/13 10:24 PM
How can I determine if I have the triple 5 heads? The casting numbers on my heads are: 1556157-1. I will make sure I find the correct center sump oil pan for sure. Any chance that the 325 pan will work? At my shop I have a 63 push button 727 that's behind a /6, a 65 cable operated 727 that's behind a poly 318, and also a 63 push button 727 from behind a 383. I prefer to use a slip yoke driveshaft instead of a bolt-on but we will see. I don't know the measurement of the cast 727 and bellhousing vs the one piece case aluminum 727 to know if I can use that B&M adapter to bigblock 727 or not. I still don't have the 58 at my shop yet.
Posted By: Mike P
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/25/13 05:39 AM
The heads you have would be the triple 5s. Unfortunately the 325 pan won't interchange, however I wouldn't be surprised of you could get more for the custom pan (if you can determine the application) than a stock pan will cost. I think Hot heads carries the correct pickup tube to go with the stock pan.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/25/13 03:42 PM
After more research I too find my 331 heads to be the triple 5's. I don't think I will see much difference in them over other hemi heads as I'm just building a good cruiser street engine. It does get my hot rod blood to thinking though. I think I'm confused about needing a trans adapter. I thought a smallblock la trans will bolt right up to an early hemi but my research tells me different. I know the crank flange is farther out of the block but I thought a special(deeper) flexplate would correct that. I read one place it will bolt right up and then I read it will not reading somewhere else. I will probably use an A518 overdrive in the end. Can I hear from the experts please.
Posted By: Mike P
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/25/13 04:43 PM
Ok, as far as Transmissions go, the cast iron TF in the dodge will bolt right up to the 392.
A later aluminum SB 727/904/518 will require an adapter, which includes a flex plate, spacer plate and adapter to get all the spacings right.
An 833 style 4 speed can be used with either a commercial adapter custom Flywheel. An adapter can also be fabricate using a modified stock Hemi/poly spacer plate, and cut down Hemi or Poly flywheel.
I'm not sure what the BB 727 adapter you have requires, but would sure like to see some pictures of it.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/25/13 06:11 PM
Thanks for the info Mike! I will try to get a few pics of the B&M BB adapter tomorrow and see if I can post them on here. I plan to soak the heads one at a time in my parts washer to see if I can break up some of the 40 year old tar that's on them. I will also have the block and heads jet vatted for now just to see what I have. The intake ports are really smooth which has me thinking a little port work has already been done. They still have the 1.94 valves though. Hopefully I can get the 58 to my shop this week.
Posted By: Norm
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/27/13 02:39 PM
I sent you a PM Mike P.
Posted By: fstfish66
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/28/13 02:37 PM
4 bbl intake are available,,,also hot heads has a classified section ,,
Posted By: fstfish66
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/28/13 02:45 PM
Quote:
regarding the 331, make sure you don't pickup one of the extended block ones. I don't think anyone makes an adapter to put any other trans on it.
some one was making an adapter for the extended bell to fit a GM manual trans,,,i think it requires machineing off the bell,and attaching a made piece of bracketry ,,,
Posted By: fstfish66
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/28/13 02:46 PM
Quote:
So far I have found two real 392 hemi's that all of a sudden became very valuable when I showed an interest in them, an industrial 1956 331 hemi that's an irrigation pump engine that might be for sale, a 1951 331 hemi that has the extended cast bellhousing and the 392 I'm getting the id numbers from tonight. I will gladly pay $500-$600 if it is a 392 and not a piece of rusted junk. I can find a crankshaft easy enough.
good luck getting a 392 for 600 bucks,,,
Posted By: fstfish66
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/28/13 02:48 PM
Quote:
SCORE!!!!!!! I just talked to the guy with the 392 minus crankshaft and he said the id numbers were 58N17712. I find that to be a 1958 392-4bll out of a New Yorker. I offered $500 he said $700 and we settled on $600. I knew watching Pawn Stars would pay off. It also has the cast bolt on bellhousing with it. Picking it up Saturday. Now I need a crankshaft, dual quad intake, cast aluminum valve covers, etc.,etc., etc.,
thats a heck of a deal,,,almost to good to be true
Posted By: fstfish66
Re: Picking Old Geezers Brains - 08/28/13 02:53 PM
Quote:
Upon closer inspection it seems the heads are actually 1955 New Yorker 331 heads with 1.94 intake and 1.75 exhaust valves. 392 heads have 2.0 intake and 1.75 exhaust valves. I understand these 331 heads are an upgrade on a 392. I will have to use intake spacers because a 392 is a tall deck and a 331 is a low deck. The engine still has the original 4" bore.
don garlits always used 354 heads on a 392,he says they flow better then the 392 heads,,
