Moparts

440 build Any sugestions?

Posted By: dragram440

440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 04:24 PM

My brother is building a 440 for a 69 valiant we recently picked up and he had started building this engine awhile ago. The engine is a 440 block .40 overbore, arp main bolts, LY rods, keith black forged flat top pistons, no cam yet but thinking conservative solid roller around 250 @ .50 and .620 lift. edelbrock victor heads standard port not max wedge, comp 1.5 offset rockers, m1 single plane intake, hooker super comp fenderwell headers, no carb yet,or ignition, 3800-4000 9.5" converter he has and 727 manual valve body, 8 3/4 rear spool 35 spline axles and 3.91's. He has most of this stuff already. Guestimate on horsepower and any suggestions on other opinions would be appreciated.
Posted By: deaks

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 05:24 PM

Put a .590 solid cam in, instead of the roller, buy a lighter set of rods and more converter, if it's race only.
As is 530-550 hp, without knowing the weight tyre type and size, i wouldn't guess on et.
Mick
Posted By: smokinwoody

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 05:47 PM

Quote:

My brother is building a 440 for a 69 valiant we recently picked up and he had started building this engine awhile ago. The engine is a 440 block .40 overbore, arp main bolts, LY rods, keith black forged flat top pistons, no cam yet but thinking conservative solid roller around 250 @ .50 and .620 lift. edelbrock victor heads standard port not max wedge, comp 1.5 offset rockers, m1 single plane intake, hooker super comp fenderwell headers, no carb yet,or ignition, 3800-4000 9.5" converter he has and 727 manual valve body, 8 3/4 rear spool 35 spline axles and 3.91's. He has most of this stuff already. Guestimate on horsepower and any suggestions on other opinions would be appreciated.



I thought the Victors were already maxwedge ported...guess not...if thats the case, that cam isnt going to be used to its potential, like said...


sounds like its going to be a strip/street machine w/3.91 gears...

what I would do and this is me..I think outa the box at times..have those heads ported and opened up to Maxwedge ports and get the Victor intake from Edlebrock and have it port matched...lose those LY rods...have the entire rotating assembly balanced..etc etc..then you can take advantage of that cam...probably need more like 4400-4600rpm stall..I was using a 5500 on my 448..was a bit much for LY rods..snap

Im sure you will get a lot more dos and donts...
Posted By: dragram440

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 05:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My brother is building a 440 for a 69 valiant we recently picked up and he had started building this engine awhile ago. The engine is a 440 block .40 overbore, arp main bolts, LY rods, keith black forged flat top pistons, no cam yet but thinking conservative solid roller around 250 @ .50 and .620 lift. edelbrock victor heads standard port not max wedge, comp 1.5 offset rockers, m1 single plane intake, hooker super comp fenderwell headers, no carb yet,or ignition, 3800-4000 9.5" converter he has and 727 manual valve body, 8 3/4 rear spool 35 spline axles and 3.91's. He has most of this stuff already. Guestimate on horsepower and any suggestions on other opinions would be appreciated.



I thought the Victors were already maxwedge ported...guess not...if thats the case, that cam isnt going to be used to its potential, like said...


sounds like its going to be a strip/street machine w/3.91 gears...

what I would do and this is me..I think outa the box at times..have those heads ported and opened up to Maxwedge ports and get the Victor intake from Edlebrock and have it port matched...lose those LY rods...have the entire rotating assembly balanced..etc etc..then you can take advantage of that cam...probably need more like 4400-4600rpm stall..I was using a 5500 on my 448..was a bit much for LY rods..snap

Im sure you will get a lot more dos and donts...


I should have said the rotating assembly is fully balanced. Im not that found of the ly rods but he has them and they have been reconditioned. The converter is new and he can send it in to get the stall speed changed so thats not to big of a deal. He has the intake and from the reading I have done it seems to be a good intake. Yes street strip car. should have mentioned that. comp. should be around 11.5-1 but havent figured it exact as we are not sure of the deck height. The block has been squared and machine work is all done.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 06:00 PM

Probably save some money by using a solid mech cam. You can call a few cam guys and have a custom grind done for about $200 and it will work with what you have. In any event it should be an easy 10 second car.
Posted By: dragram440

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 06:36 PM

Quote:

Probably save some money by using a solid mech cam. You can call a few cam guys and have a custom grind done for about $200 and it will work with what you have. In any event it should be an easy 10 second car.


My thoughts exactly! 10 secound street cars are cool! Well not as cool as 9 and 8 secound street cars but still kinda cool!
Posted By: deaks

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 06:47 PM

Tell him not to rev it beyond 6500.
Ask me how i know
Posted By: dragram440

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 06:57 PM

I think if he goes with a conservative cam he shouldnt have to rev it real high. Or need a real huge converter as long as it runs decent e.t.'s. He wants fast but not trying to make it a 9 sec. car or anything.
Posted By: dragram440

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 07:03 PM

Quote:

Tell him not to rev it beyond 6500.
Ask me how i know


What heads do you have on here and whats done to them? How much compression?
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 07:05 PM

I would go with a bit more duration (260?) but use endurance type roller cam lobes for better life of the parts. So much depends on what you do with the heads, and the cam /carb that it is impossible to give any hp estimates at this point. Figure out how to make the heads flow as much as possible, get a cam to use the flow, max out the compression for the fuel used and get the piston to head clearance down close (.040?) and you should have a winner. It should be easy to get this deal into the tens, but how far depends on a lot of your choices. One thing I am not fond of is the low converter stall. If this is a street strip deal, you have to live with some compromise. But if this is race only, get the stall up above 5,000 rpm, preferably within 1200/1300 rpm of shift point or maybe closer.
Posted By: dragram440

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 07:11 PM

Quote:

I would go with a bit more duration (260?) but use endurance type roller cam lobes for better life of the parts. So much depends on what you do with the heads, and the cam /carb that it is impossible to give any hp estimates at this point. Figure out how to make the heads flow as much as possible, get a cam to use the flow, max out the compression for the fuel used and get the piston to head clearance down close (.040?) and you should have a winner. It should be easy to get this deal into the tens, but how far depends on a lot of your choices. One thing I am not fond of is the low converter stall. If this is a street strip deal, you have to live with some compromise. But if this is race only, get the stall up above 5,000 rpm, preferably within 1200/1300 rpm of shift point or maybe closer.


I agree completely with the cam, I run a 275@50 in mine and also I run a 8" 5000 converter. He got a really good deal on alot of these parts including the tranny and converter. Im sure a 1050 domi. would also be the ticket for carb. Thanks for the recomendations everyone. Keep em coming. This is what I really like about this board!
Posted By: 440 valiant

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 10:02 PM

my brother started this post for me so i fig i better get on here and ad some info. The rotating assembly has been balanced, rods recond, and arp rod and main bolts
Posted By: 383man

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 11:07 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Probably save some money by using a solid mech cam. You can call a few cam guys and have a custom grind done for about $200 and it will work with what you have. In any event it should be an easy 10 second car.


My thoughts exactly! 10 secound street cars are cool! Well not as cool as 9 and 8 secound street cars but still kinda cool!



I agree 10 second street cars are cool.

I had Dwayne Porter spec a flat tappet cam for my 493. He also suggested that if I drive my 63 alot on the street to go with a flat tappet and since I put alot of miles on it I went with the flat tappet. The cam is 264 & 270 at .050 and with 1.6 rockers it has .624 and .630 lift and a 110 LSA. The cam was nitrided and I have it on a 106 ICL. I also thought all Victor heads were Max Wedge ports but I have been wrong before. You cant go wrong having Dwayne Porter spec you a cam which ever cam you decide on. Good luck with it , Ron
Posted By: deaks

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/02/11 11:46 PM




What heads do you have on here and whats done to them? How much compression?


I have RPM'S ported by Jeff at modern and milled .050 but not max wedge, J E domes, just over 12.5.1.
The money saved using a solid instead of a roller, could go towards some better rods and maybe just have the converter looked at.
What weight will the car be with driver?
Mick
Posted By: CH3NO2

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 08:59 AM

don't use stock rods.
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 05:39 PM

If I were building this motor, I'd focus a little more attention on the bottom half. Building this much horsepower on what amounts to a bone stock bottom end seems to be a questionable plan. Stock main caps are okay, but main studs are an absolute must, and the 40 year old LY rods are on a suicide mission, no matter what bolts are in them, at this performance goal level.

My opinion is that once your talking about Victor heads, 4500 carbs, and 10-second timeslips, You should have already accepted the costs of quality aftermarket rods, main-studs with a mainline hone; and aftermarket caps and a girdle assembly and should not be out of the question. The fastest way to blow a budget is to put a window in the block.

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 05:42 PM

I've had several nearly identicle 440 bracket motors, same cam, same heads, same pistons and compression ratio, the only differences was the 6 pak rod versus the standard LY 440 rod. The 6 pak rod motor didn't like to pull as hard above 6000 RPM as the LY rod motors did There are several rules that apply to race motors, big is best, C.I. cam, heads, carbs. and intake, compression ratio and a few others Another one apllys to motors and cars, lightweigh is right, rods, pistons, wheels and tires, drivetrain components and a few others Those six pak rods are overkill
Posted By: BDS871Cuda

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 06:33 PM

Nice combo!!! I ran a combo close to it. 440 stock
bottom end. LY rods, stock crank. Ross 10.5 to 1
pistions. Ultradyn solid 590-613 cam. 452 heads,
Crane adj. rockers, M1 intake, 825 race Demon, MSD
All this in a 4000 lb. Tank (sport fury) ran 11.16
in full street trim at Cedar Falls Raceway (Iowa)

Your little 69 Valiant should be 600-800 lbs. less
weight, so mid 10's should be easy. Bring that
motor to Line Performance and it should make 575-
600 HP. I'm sure Lance Line is still there, even
if brother Jason is out winning Pro stock champion
ship # 2!
Posted By: 68 Roadrunner

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 08:08 PM

Quote:

don't use stock rods.





It would be cheaper to do the rods now instead of later when you window the block. LMAO!!!



Posted By: BradH

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 08:13 PM

Quote:

don't use stock rods.


No sh!t. I gotta jigsaw puzzle made outta a stock LY rod that I threw at the 1000-ft mark one Friday night at the track. It also cost me a crank, a block, a camshaft, an oil pan...

Good rods are part of the foundation for any performance build. You can do a basic head swap in an afternoon, but replacing rods needs to happen at the start.
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 08:14 PM

Another vote here for good rods, even before a roller cam
Posted By: dragram440

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 08:27 PM

Im sure the LY rods will work fine on a mild build like this one! They are already resized and balanced with the rest of the rotating assembly. Fairly low compression and not to many RPM's and im sure they will live just fine!
Posted By: 68 Roadrunner

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 08:31 PM

Quote:

Im sure the LY rods will work fine on a mild build like this one! They are already resized and balanced with the rest of the rotating assembly. Fairly low compression and not to many RPM's and im sure they will live just fine!



Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem that mild. To me mild would be stock heads with a cam, intake, carb and headers. This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen! Lol
Posted By: BradH

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 08:33 PM

My car was only running mid-to-high 12s and turning 5800 RPM when it spit the rod out I mentioned. They might be fine, or they might be time bombs...
Posted By: dragram440

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 08:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Im sure the LY rods will work fine on a mild build like this one! They are already resized and balanced with the rest of the rotating assembly. Fairly low compression and not to many RPM's and im sure they will live just fine!



Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem that mild. To me mild would be stock heads with a cam, intake, carb and headers. This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen! Lol


11-1 comp. 3800 converter and 3.91 gears and .590 flat tappet cam is about as mild as it gets. stock heads cam and intake sounds weak. Might as well build a 383 if thats the case!
Posted By: 68 Roadrunner

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 08:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Im sure the LY rods will work fine on a mild build like this one! They are already resized and balanced with the rest of the rotating assembly. Fairly low compression and not to many RPM's and im sure they will live just fine!



Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem that mild. To me mild would be stock heads with a cam, intake, carb and headers. This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen! Lol


11-1 comp. 3800 converter and 3.91 gears and .590 flat tappet cam is about as mild as it gets. stock heads cam and intake sounds weak. Might as well build a 383 if thats the case!




I guess only time will tell.
Posted By: BradH

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 08:52 PM

Quote:

...and any suggestions on other opinions would be appreciated.


The rod issue has been raised by a number of people, yet you continue to ignore the legit concern. I don't think you really want other's opinions unless they already fall in line w/ your own.

Posted By: 68 Roadrunner

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 08:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

...and any suggestions on other opinions would be appreciated.


The rod issue has been raised by a number of people, yet you continue to ignore the legit concern. I don't think you really want other's opinions unless they already fall in line w/ your own.





I am getting the same feeling. Lol
Posted By: dragram440

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 09:12 PM

My last mild 440 build had a rod failure. Im certainly not saying they are good rods. I dont have em in mine. My bent rod experience was not good. Im certainly not blaiming the rods on my issues though. Poor machine work none balanced and unfinished cylinders three years of runs and Nitrous was the culpret in my deal. I would certainly agree the rods are the weak link in this build.
Posted By: RemCharger

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 09:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Im sure the LY rods will work fine on a mild build like this one! They are already resized and balanced with the rest of the rotating assembly. Fairly low compression and not to many RPM's and im sure they will live just fine!



Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem that mild. To me mild would be stock heads with a cam, intake, carb and headers. This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen! Lol


11-1 comp. 3800 converter and 3.91 gears and .590 flat tappet cam is about as mild as it gets. stock heads cam and intake sounds weak. Might as well build a 383 if thats the case!

Stick with the 440. It may not make the same hp but it'll spin the tires real good.
Posted By: deaks

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 09:30 PM

Surely he will have to turn the screw a bit to get the victor's to work.
RPM's would have been a better choice for a 440 with ly rods. If the car is reasonably light, 500 hp would drop into the tens, which could be achieved without having to rev the nuts off it.
Mick
Posted By: dragram440

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 09:42 PM

Quote:

Surely he will have to turn the screw a bit to get the victor's to work.
RPM's would have been a better choice for a 440 with ly rods. If the car is reasonably light, 500 hp would drop into the tens, which could be achieved without having to rev the nuts off it.
Mick


The screw is loose and I think the nuts are already off!
Posted By: deaks

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 09:51 PM

Posted By: poppaj

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 10:46 PM

If you use stock rods even reconditioned with new bolts they will always be a concern. Better off spending a few hundred now and get a decent set of rods, have the rotating assembly balanced. It will be the best money you can spend at this point.

Attached picture 6902226-IMG_1807.jpg
Posted By: Dean_Kuzluzski

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/03/11 11:51 PM

Going a step past just throwing yet another opinion out there............

Wouldn't the determining factors of using the LY's be the mass of the piston, rpm's applied and the dutycycle/history of the rods themselves???

A .590 cam and Victor heads do seem to be a bit much with forged KB pistons. Lotsa bobweight slingin' around.

I would think either less cam, read rpm's, or better rods & pistons would be the way to go. Or leave it dialed on "Kahboom".

I'm frugal, but not that cheap.
Posted By: dogdays

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/04/11 12:08 AM

Dean's right.

Find a way to get piston weight down to smallblock chevy country and those smallblock chevy-sized rod bolts will be able to handle it.

350 chevies and 318s have the same diameter rod bolts as any B/RB non-hemi connecting rod. The rod bolts are the most highly stressed part of the connecting rod.

So no more than a 550 gram piston with 150 gram pin and hold rpm to 6000, where the heads will not even be starting to work. That's no way to go fast.

You do know that the LY rods were the "standard" rod first developed for 413s, right? There is nothing special about them. The 3/8" rod bolts are the weak link, however after several million cycles the rod top end can rip off at high rpm as well. It's kind of a race to see which side fails first.
The 908 heavy rods added mass to the shank which helps eliminate the top ripping off scenario, but which puts more stress on the wimpy 3/8" rod bolts. So now piston weight is even more important. NEITHER is a decent high performance rod. 7/16" rod bolts are a must in a big block that is going to make power.

R.
Posted By: tex013

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/04/11 12:15 AM

lots of choice
rods - well i'm split.a lighter piston will help,so will less rpm
those heads/cam will more likely want more rpm so
but then the vert is really too small as well
i have rebuilt rods,arp bolts etc, in my 440 but i shift at 6000 trap 63/6400rpm.i have a SRP piston .i won't aim for over 6500 even when i recam it.
heck as others have said put my motor in a Abody run 10's.
put a smaller cam in it but who am i to say i use a purple 509 cam
Tex

Attached picture 6902348-2011_judgement_day_header.jpg
Posted By: 440 valiant

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/04/11 02:27 AM

i was reading thru the balance card from the machine shop and
piston 694.3
pin 190
total rod 831.6
rotary 1323.8
reciprocating .50%
bob weight is 2497.4

like any build this one has snowballed from a mild 906 head build into something much bigger. im not against changing the rods at this point im way over budget any ways. anyone have a sugestion on a decent rod that wont break the bank
Posted By: dragram440

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/04/11 01:55 PM

OVER BUDGET
Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/04/11 01:59 PM

Quote:

anyone have a sugestion on a decent rod that wont break the bank


I'd use K1.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 440 build Any sugestions? - 11/04/11 07:20 PM

Quote:

i anyone have a sugestion on a decent rod that wont break the bank

I have several motors with CAT and RPM brand Chevy style long rods in them, the ones in my 518 are CAT 6.8 Chevys I have not used any of the Mopar size rods in my owned motors other than one set of Manley 6.96 and they are in a motor that makes over 800 HP at 7200 RPM, no track time, dyno time only. I did use a set of Oliver billet steel rods in a blwon street hemi motor that made over a thousand HP at 7300 RPM, it was dyno time only motor also I have used both the stock LY and six pak rods in stock stroke 440 motors, street and strip so I'm not saying don't use them, but if you can swing a better set do so
© 2024 Moparts Forums