R3 cylinder wall thickness

Posted By: Leon441

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/06/11 02:03 AM

It all comes down to ring availability for given bore size. I haven't looked into it in sometime but there used to be a gap between 4.185" & 4.200", especially in a hell fire ring for a nitrous or boosted combo.

4.185 was never a problem with Hell fire as the ring is actually 4.190 file fit to 4.185. When running nitrous most would run at least .030" clearance I ran a lot more. The 4.190" ring worked in a 4.200 bore with no problems. My engine had great leak down test cold and hot. A little nitrous BO BO and I had to hone out to 4.210. Total seal suggested I try a straight ductile ring. That thing toased quick. The Hell Fire 4.190" ring just would not work out either. At the time , early 2000's, you could not get a Hell Fire anywhere from 4.190-4.285. So many engines factory bored at 4.250 and no Hell Fire rings. I talked to Chris at Ross and decided a Childs and Albert tool steel ring was available for 4.255. We discussed this with some ring experts and after checking the block went with a 4.245" bore allowing many rebuilds as we could easily hone out to 4.255" with the block. Never had to go over 4.245" with the bore. That is where it is today.

Now years later and some new ideas on my next build I am told by Keith at Total Seal that nitrous freindly rings are readily available for any bore between 4.185 and 4.280. Keith is well aware of all the trouble we went through years ago. Knowing all this I would build an R3 with a large bore again. Most of the time if you screw up bad with nitrous a small bore change is not going to fix the block. A good sleeve can be better than the block was to start with.

Leon

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/06/11 12:17 PM

Same topic different aspect.

ProLine hit me up with another question yesterday.

How much material is between the 2 center cylinder exhaust gaskets?

They said that this is a BIG issue with engines that have the middle 2 exhaust valves right next to each other. Also the same reason they stay away from conventional SB Chevies for boost builds as well.

They were concerned that the 2 exhaust valves being next to each other and the Larger bore or even a smaller bore with the head chambers milled too much toward each other on the center cylinders would not leave enough material for the head-gaskets to seal and withstand the Heat and Cylinder pressures.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/06/11 12:52 PM

Quote:

Same topic different aspect.

ProLine hit me up with another question yesterday.

How much material is between the 2 center cylinder exhaust gaskets?

They said that this is a BIG issue with engines that have the middle 2 exhaust valves right next to each other. Also the same reason they stay away from conventional SB Chevies for boost builds as well.

They were concerned that the 2 exhaust valves being next to each other and the Larger bore or even a smaller bore with the head chambers milled too much toward each other on the center cylinders would not leave enough material for the head-gaskets to seal and withstand the Heat and Cylinder pressures.

What heads are you running

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/06/11 02:52 PM

Guess that would help fi I want some advice!!! DOH!!

I have a set of W9-RPs set-up for an alcohol sprint car but were never actually used.

Posted By: Plumb Wired

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/06/11 03:07 PM

Quote:

Same topic different aspect.

ProLine hit me up with another question yesterday.

How much material is between the 2 center cylinder exhaust gaskets?

They said that this is a BIG issue with engines that have the middle 2 exhaust valves right next to each other. Also the same reason they stay away from conventional SB Chevies for boost builds as well.

They were concerned that the 2 exhaust valves being next to each other and the Larger bore or even a smaller bore with the head chambers milled too much toward each other on the center cylinders would not leave enough material for the head-gaskets to seal and withstand the Heat and Cylinder pressures.

Kenny, like I said before my old combo siamese, 4.250" bore, oringed, copper gaskets, 30+ pounds of boost, no problems.

I know ProLine knows their stuff but obviously they aren't familiar with SB Mopars. Have you talked with Ryan Johnson (SDSS)?

Posted By: Pat7272

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/06/11 03:55 PM

It sure is nice to read some real high tech SBM stuff on the net! Keep the info coming please guys.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/06/11 04:14 PM

I've seen on sprint car engines and drag race engines
that have a #6 or #8 coolant line running to the area
between the center exhaust ports... I didnt do it,
I felt there wasnt a reason to on my engine

Posted By: Plumb Wired

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/06/11 05:17 PM

Quote:

I've seen on sprint car engines and drag race engines
that have a #6 or #8 coolant line running to the area
between the center exhaust ports... I didnt do it,
I felt there wasnt a reason to on my engine

Good point! On my boosted combo we pulled water from front, middle & rear. On my nitrous combo just front & rear.

Posted By: Leon441

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/07/11 02:15 AM

I can't remember the exact figures. Small block Mopar has a larger bore spacing than the Chevie for sure. So this may not be as big a deal.

I prefer reverse cooling with #16 water lines entering the center core plug hole on the block. This will not be possible on your block Kenny as it is filled. The way to go is run your combo on alcohol. No intercooler and you can control the fuel curve on any cylinder you think there is a problem with.

Leon

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/07/11 04:04 AM

I called on ProLline for many reasons but mainly because they can build and tune the entire engine In House. I may go back with Uratchko, IF he has the room on his list. Last I heard from him he wasn't taking any new customers until he caught up with his Freshen-Ups.

ProLine even admittedly doesn't know SBMopars,(they build some crazy Hemis though) and rather build on the side of caution.

I did let them know about the cooling port between the center cylinders that usually isn't usually used by N/A engines.

As far as Alcohol, They won't build an Alcohol motor without billet heads. They said that to take advantage of the alcohol it would build enough power that it would cause issues with Cast heads (IE: cracks).

They suggested C or Q-16. They said with what I got that I wouldn't be able to take advantage of alcohol's benefits. On that same note I would have to upgrade my fuel system as well. I currently have the Magnafuel EFI 1000+hp system which they said should support about? 2000hp.

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/07/11 04:29 AM

Quote:

I can't remember the exact figures. Small block Mopar has a larger bore spacing than the Chevie for sure. So this may not be as big a deal.

4.460" sound right?

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/07/11 04:43 AM

Another question they asked that I missed!

What is the smallest bore that the heads would allow?

W9-RP with 2.25 Int Ported by AllPro.

Any guesses!!!

Sorry for all the questions that it seems I should be able to answer. I am in Afghanistan and my parts are at Bondo-Bob's shop.

Posted By: Plumb Wired

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/07/11 05:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I can't remember the exact figures. Small block Mopar has a larger bore spacing than the Chevie for sure. So this may not be as big a deal.

4.460" sound right?

4.460" is correct

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/07/11 11:48 AM

Thanks Mike!!

Couldn't find anything solid saying that the R3 still maintained the 4.460 BUT did find many of threads saying that the C&F guys were fussing because they of the extra bore spacing allowed to Mopar in classes that run small blocks.

Posted By: Plumb Wired

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/07/11 01:07 PM

If I remember correctly factory bore spacing on SBC is 4.40" and SBF is 4.38".

Posted By: fishy340

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/07/11 01:50 PM

Quote:

I called on ProLline for many reasons but mainly because they can build and tune the entire engine In House. I may go back with Uratchko, IF he has the room on his list. Last I heard from him he wasn't taking any new customers until he caught up with his Freshen-Ups.

ProLine even admittedly doesn't know SBMopars,(they build some crazy Hemis though) and rather build on the side of caution.

I did let them know about the cooling port between the center cylinders that usually isn't usually used by N/A engines.

As far as Alcohol, They won't build an Alcohol motor without billet heads. They said that to take advantage of the alcohol it would build enough power that it would cause issues with Cast heads (IE: cracks).

They suggested C or Q-16. They said with what I got that I wouldn't be able to take advantage of alcohol's benefits. On that same note I would have to upgrade my fuel system as well. I currently have the Magnafuel EFI 1000+hp system which they said should support about? 2000hp.

steve morris race engines would do my turbo

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/07/11 03:35 PM

I always seem to forget about Steve Morris.

I may give him a shout and see what he has to say as well.

Thanks for the reminder.

Posted By: Leon441

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/07/11 05:26 PM

Not a turbo guy and don't claim to be....

That said, if I were building a turbo these are some items to keep in mind on my short list.

Exhaust valves open against cylinder pressure on any engine more so on turbo. Heavy exhaust rocker arms and pushrods and larger valve stems.

Chance for a lot more heat as mentioned in the exhaust valve. You have .030" more area to center to play with. This will be smaller depending on your valve to bore centerline. But, this you have over the chevies and fords.

Kick butt CFE NA drag race heads would not be preffered in this application. Thin intake port walls, small stems. No routing for water in center of head. Circle track heads are probably the best used head available.

Build stroke into your engine for a user freindly engine when not making boost. Kenny already has 4.125" stroke and a 9.590" block height.

I see no reason to have the best intake available for NA racing with a turbo. Personally would think a smaller plenum would work better with multipoint fuel injection and boost. This is just a personal thought as I have no experience whatsoever with this.

If I were doing one of these I would be calling the guys who ran Comp with an Arrington setup years ago. Would have to look up their names. They ran a Daytona and then an Avenger. I think the Avenger had a W7 or W8 head. They knew their stuff 15 years ago.

Leon

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/08/11 03:52 AM

We're on the same train of thought.

ProLine has already told me they would have to get rid of the Titanium Exhaust valves that came with the heads. And install Steel Guides. They just won't hold up to the heat and pressure. Inconel would be better but not worth the $$$$ for my application.

I hear this one time and again. Flow Numbers don't mean any or everything which is somewhat true. BUT with boosted applications you want a head that will allow the air through and as much in volume as possible therefore Flow Numbers hold some weight. Granted everyone's numbers for the same heads will vary, so it's better to find heads that have a proven track record.

Yep stroke is your friend on a Boost motor and Compression is as well. Many guys are actually running 10-11.5:1 compression with 25-35psi Boost on race gas. Even more if they run alcohol.

Intakes only need to fit the heads. IE: Same port sizes and not be a restriction. Most of the guys running High-end intakes is because they have to. No decent Intakes to match their heads.

I like to think of it as flowing water in pipes under pressure. Open it up as much as possible and keep your flow and prevent any reversions.

There was a guy in Va. about 1-2 yrs ago, that has an Avenger that he put a 420-something R3 in with W9 heads and Blow Through Carb and 88 or 91mm Turbo made a 6.98sec 1/4mile pass first day of test&tune.

Let me know if you come up with the name of the Guys running the Arrington stuff from way-back.

Posted By: Plumb Wired

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/08/11 05:48 AM

Quote:

We're on the same train of thought.

ProLine has already told me they would have to get rid of the Titanium Exhaust valves that came with the heads. And install Steel Guides. They just won't hold up to the heat and pressure. Inconel would be better but not worth the $$$$ for my application.

I hear this one time and again. Flow Numbers don't mean any or everything which is somewhat true. BUT with boosted applications you want a head that will allow the air through and as much in volume as possible therefore Flow Numbers hold some weight. Granted everyone's numbers for the same heads will vary, so it's better to find heads that have a proven track record.

Yep stroke is your friend on a Boost motor and Compression is as well. Many guys are actually running 10-11.5:1 compression with 25-35psi Boost on race gas. Even more if they run alcohol.

Intakes only need to fit the heads. IE: Same port sizes and not be a restriction. Most of the guys running High-end intakes is because they have to. No decent Intakes to match their heads.

I like to think of it as flowing water in pipes under pressure. Open it up as much as possible and keep your flow and prevent any reversions.

There was a guy in Va. about 1-2 yrs ago, that has an Avenger that he put a 420-something R3 in with W9 heads and Blow Through Carb and 88 or 91mm Turbo made a 6.98sec 1/4mile pass first day of test&tune.

Let me know if you come up with the name of the Guys running the Arrington stuff from way-back.

His name is Bill Harris, he runs OSBA (Outlaw Small Block Association) http://www.osbadrag.com/index.html
He has a phone number on the contacts tab on their website.

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/08/11 06:27 AM

Thanks Mike!!

Found the Avenger.

I also like their Rules Much better than many other places.

Posted By: Get-X

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/08/11 06:58 AM

Ritter and Weber kicked a$$ in Comp way back but don't remember if it was boosted?

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/08/11 07:34 AM

I stand Corrected!!

Bill Harris's Avenger is 412cui and made an 1/8th pass at 4.75sec 152mph last month during Testing at Richmond Dragway.

http://www.candsspecialties.com/running.html

1/2 way down the page.

Posted By: Plumb Wired

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/08/11 08:07 AM

Quote:

I stand Corrected!!

Bill Harris's Avenger is 412cui and made an 1/8th pass at 4.75sec 152mph last month during Testing at Richmond Dragway.

http://www.candsspecialties.com/running.html

1/2 way down the page.

Not taking anything away from Bill's car it's flying but keep in mind this a big tire car, not on 10.5's.

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/08/11 02:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I stand Corrected!!

Bill Harris's Avenger is 412cui and made an 1/8th pass at 4.75sec 152mph last month during Testing at Richmond Dragway.

http://www.candsspecialties.com/running.html

1/2 way down the page.

Not taking anything away from Bill's car it's flying but keep in mind this a big tire car, not on 10.5's.

Do you by chance know how BIG? 10.5W or even bigger?

Posted By: Leon441

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/08/11 07:57 PM

I know the guy who helped Bill put the car together. He races imports now.

Bill's car has a big tire on the rear. I forget whos car it was but I don't think it was an X prostock. He runs a 32X14 if I remember right. He also runs a Bruno with a three speed G force behind it. That brought the car to life when he ran NA. He broke input shafts when he went turbo and had to upgrade the converter and everything. Bill runs a real soft tuneup and can go up any greaseball track. I'd bet he could switch over to a 10.5 tire and go up the track with no issues. The car is just not violent at all. For what the car is it is heavy. I think he is around 2,650 with him in it. For a all tube car with lexan that is heavy in my opinion. He runs a raised port W9 head with a 772 intake manifold. To my knowledge Bill has never had to work on the engine from running on kill. So if he really went for it he could go a lot faster from what I have seen.

Leon

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/09/11 03:44 AM

Quote:

I know the guy who helped Bill put the car together. He races imports now.

Bill's car has a big tire on the rear. I forget whos car it was but I don't think it was an X prostock. He runs a 32X14 if I remember right. He also runs a Bruno with a three speed G force behind it. That brought the car to life when he ran NA. He broke input shafts when he went turbo and had to upgrade the converter and everything. Bill runs a real soft tuneup and can go up any greaseball track. I'd bet he could switch over to a 10.5 tire and go up the track with no issues. The car is just not violent at all. For what the car is it is heavy. I think he is around 2,650 with him in it. For a all tube car with lexan that is heavy in my opinion. He runs a raised port W9 head with a 772 intake manifold. To my knowledge Bill has never had to work on the engine from running on kill. So if he really went for it he could go a lot faster from what I have seen.

Leon

The video I saw of his pass last month looked like he was baby-ing it off the line out to about 60ft. It came of the line nice and smooth.

Yeah I could see him making the same kind of passes on a 10.5W (33x11.6-15)or even True 10.5.

Do you know who did the engine work?

Not sure what he has the Turbo turned up to on the track BUT he was putting 1140+hp to the tires on the Dyno with somewhere around 7-10psi of boost and under 8000rpms If I remember correctly.

Posted By: Plumb Wired

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/09/11 02:33 PM

Bill's car was previously owned by Chris Rini. I haven't spoken with him in years but I need to call him with some questions about OSBA.

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/09/11 03:21 PM

I emailed Bill H. the other day at his OSBA address.

Waiting to see if he responds.

Posted By: LA360

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/10/11 04:33 AM

He is a member here? I remember seeing his car on the forum

Posted By: Leon441

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/10/11 09:29 PM

Bill Richardson here in town did his NA engine originally. I think they had a little hickup with an external oilpump and had to do some repairs. The engine ran well.

The current engine has another guys heads on it and I don't know what they changed in the short block. Thomas Youngblood was working with Bill Harris when they put this together.

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/11/11 03:07 AM

Leon,

Thanks for the info.

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/11/11 03:10 AM

Quote:

Bill's car was previously owned by Chris Rini. I haven't spoken with him in years but I need to call him with some questions about OSBA.

According to Chris Rini it was N/A when he ran it. It was also one of his first cars when he finally started getting serious about racing in mid 2000's. ( didn't know that he didn't even start racing until 2000)

Posted By: DakFink

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness - 10/30/11 07:41 AM

Finally got an E-mail back from Bill Harris!

He's actually running W8 heads, not W9's. (his head porter was afraid the W9's might have issue running Boost.) from being a Lightened Version of W8 is what I gathered.)

I don't see it myself. As where they lightened up the heads to make the W9's was not in high stress areas.

Other than Machine work, he builds his own motors.

That said I will be giving him a call when I get back to the U.S. again.

Looks like I may have to go at this the long way around.

Built at 1 shop
Turbo'd at another
Tuned at Another.

Which may be a good thing in the end.

If I have to take it to another shop for the Turbo set-up and Tuning. Mike Marrillo of Outlaw 10.5 fame only lives about 3 hrs from me. And he is a BS-3 tuner/ dealer.

R3 cylinder wall thickness