Moparts
Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong?
Posted By: fullmetaljacket
Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/27/11 07:00 PM
I'm may be having a senior moment because I can't see how my car is running at 50 degrees at TDC. The reading has been the same with both a standard type timing light and a Snap-on knob type light. I turn the knob to 0 on the light and the damper reads 50 @TDC, then I turn the knob to 50 on the light and the damper reads 0 @TDC.
Don at FBO has been helping me in trying to draw out this gremlin, but maybe some of you have been through this before if I remember correctly.
Posted By: fishy340
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/27/11 07:02 PM
bro i had ati on my dart..damn good product ( NOT wrong) on mine.
Posted By: Baxter61
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/27/11 07:05 PM
have you verified that your pointer is in the right place relative to the damper with a dial indicator on the piston to find true tdc? also, i had a big block with a big cam that was retarded 14 degrees (first cam install and didnt degree) and was running really rich and it would run with like 46 initial and 68 total.
Posted By: Cudajon
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/27/11 09:27 PM
Are you timing it with a distributer that has vacuum advance and did you forget to disconnect it?
Posted By: VanishPt
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/27/11 09:28 PM
What he said.
Posted By: fullmetaljacket
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/28/11 02:40 AM
No, I have a mechanical advance dist. It has the advance coming in some where around 1000 rpms. Light weight springs on the weights.
Posted By: Cudajon
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/28/11 03:35 AM
Never seen a bad ATI Damper. I'd put heavier springs on the dizzy and if its a MSD put the rings in thier that stop the advance. A normal mechanical advance is about 25 degrees. With 10 degree advance on the dizzy at start and add 25 degrees for a 35 degree total. When the advance comes in is a tuning decision, mine is all in about 1400 rpm. I'm betting thats the problem. If you have 30 degrees of mecahnical advance that would mean 20 degrees at cranking. My hot rod would buck and kick back with that much initial advance. So you may have a lot more mechanical advance. An engine will run with 50 degrees of advance but not well.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/28/11 05:32 AM
Posted By: CHAPPER
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/28/11 01:47 PM
Check the polarity of the wires from the box to the distributor....have seen this dilema among numerous other problems when the wires are reversed.
Posted By: fullmetaljacket
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/28/11 01:55 PM
I'm running an MSD 6AL box. But I'll check.
Also, does any one have pictures of early timing tab covers and newer ones?
I believe I have the correct one, but you never know. I'm an artist, so I can remember mine really well if some one post pictures. Much appreciated.
Posted By: 70blackfish
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/28/11 02:58 PM
are you sure your on number 1 cylinder, and if you are put the timing light pick up close to the distributor cap, on number one cylinder. I have a ATI damper it is 100% right on the money.
if all checks out try a different timing light.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/28/11 03:05 PM
Quote:
Verify the timing marks on the dampener and timing cover to make sure that TDC on the dampener is zero on the timing tab on the timing cover and go from there 
Let us know what you find 
I have a B motor in the shop now that a customer was running(it didn't run very well) that has a early straight tab timing cover with a later model stock dampener, that combination throws the actual timing of by over ten degrees, if you use the zero mark on the timing cover tab 
My last build a buddy helped me by notching the timing tab at true TDC. Needlees to say it was a tad off.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/28/11 06:14 PM
Quote:
Also, does any one have pictures of early timing tab covers and newer ones?
I believe I have the correct one, but you never know.
The early BB timing covers, pre 1966 or 1967, (I can't remember the change over year, I'm a gear head so I can't remember details like that 
) have the timing tabs straight with the zero indicator on the top. The later(smog) ones are curved and have the zero mark in the center of the curve with timing marks above and below the zero hole
Not hard to tell the differences once you know what they are I hope this pictures is clear enough to see the differences between the tabs 
Posted By: fullmetaljacket
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/28/11 10:01 PM
Thank you Cab. I have the later smog type cover with the curved tab and the 0 in the middle with both the above and below TDC numbers in between the 0 like you said.
I'm going to go check my ATI 0 mark and let y'all know what I found.
Hopefully by this week end.
Posted By: sogtx
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/29/11 01:27 AM
I am having a similar problem with an other manufacturers. Might have slipped ? Atis supposed to be the best. Please keep us posted. Have you EVER had 0 at tdc, is this a new build? ?
I spent some time talking to people at carlisle, seemed like a slipped blancer is common nowadays.
I am switching to a fluiddamper, theres no way to slip on those.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/29/11 01:52 AM
I have both ATI and a real "Fluid Dampener" on stroker BB Mopars, both are excellent
One thing you need to be careful on with the fluid type dampeners is the type of fluid in the dampener and the temperature you run the motor in
There has been several incidences of Fluid Dampeners allegedly (on here
) of breaking crankshafts on motors revved up when the outside air temps where cold
I have bought several ATI balancers since running one on my street car for the last 5 yrs,, they are the only ones I will run now
Especially after "Fluid Dampenr Comp." went bankrupt several years ago
Posted By: fullmetaljacket
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/29/11 03:34 AM
The motor is relatively new but was actually built a couple of years ago and has low mileage. It's a week end bruiser at most.
Posted By: sleepyhead416
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/29/11 04:26 AM
Is your timing marks on left or right side of timing cover ?????
Posted By: fullmetaljacket
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/29/11 12:33 PM
looking at the engine from the front of the car, the timing tab is on the left hand side. I've never seen a right side timing tab cover before.
Posted By: racerx
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/29/11 01:43 PM
Quote:
looking at the engine from the front of the car, the timing tab is on the left hand side. I've never seen a right side timing tab cover before.
x2 Do they make one?
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/29/11 01:52 PM
Quote:
Quote:
looking at the engine from the front of the car, the timing tab is on the left hand side. I've never seen a right side timing tab cover before.
x2 Do they make one?
I think the later year 440's had them???? the water pump discharge was flip flopped
Posted By: hemi-itis
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/29/11 01:52 PM
Quote:
The motor is relatively new but was actually built a couple of years ago and has low mileage. It's a week end bruiser at most.
Maybe that's why it's lazy outta the hole 
Posted By: fullmetaljacket
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/29/11 03:15 PM
No, No, I photo shopped the floor jack out of the pppppppicture.
Or maybe was it a classic Zoo York pothole that I hit on the way out or maybe the body's twisted as the worlds first tri-wheel driven Mopar or.......
All kidding aside, I think I can get more 60' out of this pup.
Posted By: sogtx
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 07/30/11 01:16 AM
im assuming youve been at 15-20 initial and 35 total before with this setup , same light ?
Posted By: fullmetaljacket
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 08/02/11 01:43 AM
Well, I checked my suspect ATI damper today for slippage and did the recommended piston stop test by marking the damper at both clockwise and counterclockwise points where the piston stopped against the tool. It was dead on the (0)TDC So I still of yet have to find out how my motor is even running at 50 degrees. It doesn't overheat and starts on the dime hot or cold better than a new car. My friend has suspected that my old Distributor with its light weight springs is advanced early in the cycle, combined with aluminum heads and sufficient bleed over from the split pattern cam allows it to idle and run. Once my new Distributor arrives, I will test and tune accordingly and let every one know what gives.
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 08/02/11 01:45 AM
Quote:
Well, I checked my suspect ATI damper today for slippage and did the recommended piston stop test by marking the damper at both clockwise and counterclockwise points where the piston stopped against the tool. It was dead on the (0)TDC So I still of yet have to find out how my motor is even running at 50 degrees. It doesn't overheat and starts on the dime hot or cold better than a new car. My friend has suspected that my old Distributor with its light weight springs is advanced early in the cycle, combined with aluminum heads and sufficient bleed over from the split pattern cam allows it to idle and run. Once my new Distributor arrives, I will test and tune accordingly and let every one know what gives.
50 degrees is a lot
Posted By: Cudajon
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 08/02/11 03:08 AM
Quote:
Never seen a bad ATI Damper. I'd put heavier springs on the dizzy and if its a MSD put the rings in thier that stop the advance. A normal mechanical advance is about 25 degrees. With 10 degree advance on the dizzy at start and add 25 degrees for a 35 degree total. When the advance comes in is a tuning decision, mine is all in about 1400 rpm. I'm betting thats the problem. If you have 30 degrees of mecahnical advance that would mean 20 degrees at cranking. My hot rod would buck and kick back with that much initial advance. So you may have a lot more mechanical advance. An engine will run with 50 degrees of advance but not well.
A brand new distributer will probably fix it.
Posted By: HEMIFRED
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 08/02/11 06:35 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Never seen a bad ATI Damper. I'd put heavier springs on the dizzy and if its a MSD put the rings in thier that stop the advance. A normal mechanical advance is about 25 degrees. With 10 degree advance on the dizzy at start and add 25 degrees for a 35 degree total. When the advance comes in is a tuning decision, mine is all in about 1400 rpm. I'm betting thats the problem. If you have 30 degrees of mecahnical advance that would mean 20 degrees at cranking. My hot rod would buck and kick back with that much initial advance. So you may have a lot more mechanical advance. An engine will run with 50 degrees of advance but not well.
A brand new distributer will probably fix it.
so will a simple adjustment to the mechanical advance
Posted By: fullmetaljacket
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 08/02/11 01:43 PM
yeah, I know, but the current distributor was modified over 20 years ago and the slots were welded and all, Even its builder has forgotten what he exactly done to it,so I'm starting with a new one since its a borrower and then I can adjust all I need to get the sweet spot.
Posted By: Madness
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 08/04/11 02:29 AM
An ATI damper can't slip because the outside is directly attached to the crank hub, right? The o-rings & weight inside are what move.
A must in any motor build (in my opinion)is to put a piston stop over #1 piston & check for actual TDC with the heads off & timing cover & pointer installed. Lots easier than later having to remove the #1 pushrods & put a piston stop thru the spark plug hole. I always do this with only the #1 piston in the motor (lots easier to turn), then remove the timing cover & degree the cam. Then I install the remaining 7 pistons & rods. Make sense?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 08/04/11 02:49 AM
Quote:
yeah, I know, but the current distributor was modified over 20 years ago and the slots were welded and all, Even its builder has forgotten what he exactly done to it,so I'm starting with a new one since its a borrower and then I can adjust all I need to get the sweet spot.
I assume it runs best at 50 total... if this is correct
you can put in all the dist you want and it wont
change... I would look at the valve timing... since
you know the damper is 0 you can use that as the
degree wheel and put a indicator on the retainer
for a quick check
Posted By: fullmetaljacket
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 08/04/11 05:01 AM
Gee! I never though about taking the pushrods out of #1 cylinder. Hope I did not bend anything in there. I do have angle plug heads.
If I Dodged a bullet with this one I'll remember from here on than, never do any thing to do with a fast car fast.
Posted By: sogtx
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 08/07/11 12:48 PM
Posted By: fullmetaljacket
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 08/09/11 05:15 PM
Do you guys think I might have bent a valve with the piston stop turned in all the way while spinning the engine by hand with no spark plugs installed?
I'm not sure how much travel is in the exhaust/intake valves when engine is being turned over.
Posted By: mac56
Re: Are ATI Super damper timing marks wrong? - 08/09/11 05:19 PM
Quote:
Do you guys think I might have bent a valve with the piston stop turned in all the way while spinning the engine by hand with no spark plugs installed?
I'm not sure how much travel is in the exhaust/intake valves when engine is being turned over.
Do a compression test.