New Hemi conversions

Posted By: 72Challenger

New Hemi conversions - 04/26/11 01:08 PM

Guys... I read more and more about new hemis making big numbers without to much effort and relative cheap parts (blocks, heads etc) so start to wonder about building one someday. But what do most of you use for fuel / ignition?

carbs, efi, computers etc.

With all parts available lately seems to be not hard to install one in my old challenger...

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/27/11 01:55 PM

For a carb, msd hemi 6 is the simplest because it doesn't give you anything you don't need.

There might be a distributor kit in the works, in the near future, but it's only a possibility at this point. (And that isn't considering the super expensive one out there already).

For efi, an oe based system like hotwireauto's, or a basic aftermarket standalone like FAST is probably the easiest and least expensive. Accel DFI appears to be worth a look also. There are several more feature-rich systems out there such as AEM/Mopar EMS and others, if cost is no object and you need more capability than the basic systems offer.

Posted By: haddixj

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/27/11 02:38 PM

why does it seem like nobody uses the OEM EFI?

Posted By: moparpollack

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/27/11 02:52 PM

Quote:

why does it seem like nobody uses the OEM EFI?

It's more expensive. hopefully before the end of the year I can find out what is the best way to convert a car.

Posted By: STEFF

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/27/11 05:10 PM

Quote:

There might be a distributor kit in the works, in the near future, but it's only a possibility at this point. (And that isn't considering the super expensive one out there already).

Why would anyone want to put a distributor on these motors? I think that's one of the Coolest things about them, is the lack of one.

Posted By: haddixj

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/27/11 08:37 PM

really? Nobody cuts the stock harness to make it easy like an LS motor? For an LS swap its just re flash the comp and cut the harness and your good to go. I planned on doing a swap into my 73 barracuda and an LS swap in my 67 chevelle. I will not run a carb with a new engine that seems counter productive. But if I have to buy a FAST system to keep it EFI then who knows maybe a LS motor for the cuda, a lot of people seem to be putting 4l60E trans behing the new hemi anyways.

Posted By: Mopar_Rich

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/27/11 09:06 PM

Quote:

why does it seem like nobody uses the OEM EFI?

Not only are they expensive, but you can't get into the ECU for reprogramming. Make performance improvements on the motor and you can't make the required changes to the software.

Posted By: haddixj

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/27/11 10:55 PM

that sucks I never knew that just noticed people never seem to run it.

Posted By: wldtm

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/27/11 10:58 PM

Quote:

really? Nobody cuts the stock harness to make it easy like an LS motor? For an LS swap its just re flash the comp and cut the harness and your good to go. I planned on doing a swap into my 73 barracuda and an LS swap in my 67 chevelle. I will not run a carb with a new engine that seems counter productive. But if I have to buy a FAST system to keep it EFI then who knows maybe a LS motor for the cuda, a lot of people seem to be putting 4l60E trans behing the new hemi anyways.

i have done this. it is super tedious, but doable. probably a truck manual trans wiring harness would be easiest. Mine is for a street car, and I used an 04 truck harness and wiring diagram. With that being said, i think I am still going to look at a FAST system for a drag vehicle. the chrysler computers are more finicky than a gm with mass air (that my opinion) when it comes to flashing and getting the most out of it.

attached is an 04 truck wiring diagram

Attached File

6606052-10_0SCHEMATICDIAGRAMS.pdf (134 downloads)

Posted By: blown71duster

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/27/11 11:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

why does it seem like nobody uses the OEM EFI?

Not only are they expensive, but you can't get into the ECU for reprogramming. Make performance improvements on the motor and you can't make the required changes to the software.

I was told that CMR tuners can tune for performance mods ,even boost
Factory ecm would be a lot cheaper ,even with hotwire harness, under 2k complete

Quote:

The tuning process through email is fairly straight forward even with a turbo or supercharger. Go with a tuner that knows what he's doing, supply him with accurate datalogs and there's generally no issues. Also, the DSP does allow quite a bit of adjustability to the end user too. WOT Timing and A/F(rev limit,ect) can still be moved around a significant amount just with the tool.

There's really no comparing the factory PCM's idle and drivability quality to what most stand alone EFI offer. You really need to be a top rated tuner and spend a crap load of time with a car to get a stand alone to attain the drivability that comes free with the stock PCM. Drive quality is one of the most difficult things to tune,,,usually but the stock PCM offers the tuner a HUGE advantage.

The stock PCM is unmatched in its adaptive learning and protection strategies. Idle, Closed Loop A/F, Tip-in timing, and Knock sensing all complex learning capability to actively improve drivability and maintain engine performance. With ETC, the PCM has the option to override the Pedal and can close the throttle if any parameter is out of line.

The added benefit of readily available parts is there along with the comprehensive (and free) Diagnostic procedures offered by Mopar. Very few EFI systems offer little if any fault detection procedures. If a sensor goes south and the car runs like crap, on most EFI systems you're stuck figuring it out all on your own.

If the stock PCM was just another aftermarket stand alone, it's quality, power, sophisticatoin and added value would cost over $15,000 easy.

imo, every attempt should be made to use the stock PCM when ever possible.

Posted By: wldtm

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/28/11 12:17 AM

i like the stock PCM for more of a driver/street/strip (especially if the car is already equipped with the harness) like on an LC LX DR, etc.

However to use a stock PCM in 68 cuda. You need
a harness 1000$
a pcm from the dealer $300
a programmer 200-300$
an APP pedal 50$

To use a FAST system i was quoted around 2900-3200 (NOT EZ EFI)

I guess it depends on budget, tuning options,etc.

Most ALL OUT drag cars do not need the driveability functions the stock PCM has.

just stuff to think about...

Posted By: gdemon

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/28/11 03:34 PM

You will need a 2005 computer to use a Diablo tunner .

Posted By: haddixj

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/28/11 03:51 PM

I have seen take out motors with harness for 1500 or so. It seems like it may just take some more time for development, my project is a few years out maybe I'll do the LS swap first then maybe some body will come up with something similar. I am just looking for a cam swap and headers and it should be 400hp for a street car with good manners and AC

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/28/11 07:21 PM

Quote:

I was told that CMR tuners can tune for performance mods ,even boost
Factory ecm would be a lot cheaper ,even with hotwire harness, under 2k complete

That's true, but consider the evolutionary nature of the average hot rod. Intial stockish build, then a couple years later cam and heads (time for another tune). Couple years later, stroker kit (retune). Couple years later, supercharger (tune again). CMR does work, but it's not cheap. IMO it's best use is in a newer modified car, not an old car converted to the newer engine...but that's just my opinion.

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/28/11 07:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

There might be a distributor kit in the works, in the near future, but it's only a possibility at this point. (And that isn't considering the super expensive one out there already).

Why would anyone want to put a distributor on these motors? I think that's one of the Coolest things about them, is the lack of one.

Agreed it is one of the coolest things, but there is a certain element in the hobby that dislikes electronic gizmos and does not want to try to understand them.

They have had distributors since 1940 something or whatever, and they want the engine but only if it can be converted to a distributor, etc etc. And I can't blame them...

Myself I can see it either way and am trying to keep an open mind about it.

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/28/11 07:34 PM

Quote:

The added benefit of readily available parts is there along with the comprehensive (and free) Diagnostic procedures offered by Mopar.

Maybe he meant diagnostics are free after you buy the $2800 dollar scan tool, and become a dealer so you can have access to procedures?

Or was that person trying to say any Chrysler dealer will scan a modified car for no charge?

Either way, it makes a person think

Posted By: blown71duster

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/29/11 12:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The added benefit of readily available parts is there along with the comprehensive (and free) Diagnostic procedures offered by Mopar.

Maybe he meant diagnostics are free after you buy the $2800 dollar scan tool, and become a dealer so you can have access to procedures?

Or was that person trying to say any Chrysler dealer will scan a modified car for no charge?

I believe the diablo tuners can pull codes ,any modern obd II is checking for a problem as you drive your vehicle . So if you have a misfire it can tell you which cylinder is misfiring .Or if a problem exists enough to set a code it gives you something to look at .
You can pick up a scan tool used pretty reasonable .

Posted By: hemidup

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/29/11 04:40 AM

My personal experience? If you plan on using a carb, use the MSD. With EFI, the Mopar Performance AEM win's hands down.

With these new EFI Hemi's, I have a Rubber Maid box full of EFI tuner's. Superchips, IEMS3, Split Second, SCT/Race Pro, DSP, SMT6, Hypertech, bunch of other's I forgot and a crap load of EFI data logging gizzmo's.

I'll take a carb with a MSD Hemi 6 anyday over anytype of EFI system in an old school swap.

Posted By: gremlinsteve

Re: New Hemi conversions - 04/30/11 01:50 AM

given the right intake. i do not like the intakes that are available at this time other that the 1000 dollaR DRAG PAK. i would spend the money on the fast efi system myself and use the 6.1 intake.

steve