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More cam Thoughts

Posted By: 6bblFLASH

More cam Thoughts - 03/08/11 04:31 AM

Just benchracing a few thoughts with some freinds:
You have a motor with a ROOTS type supercharger making 375hp.on a dyno.
Cam is 108C/L and 68* overlap 284* duration.
Makes 6-lbs boost.
Swap cams to a 114 C/L 56* overlap 278/290 duration cam, same 6-lbs boost,,,,,,, How much power difference would you expect?????????
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/08/11 02:38 PM

interesting thaught.in my case of changing LSA,dur. i also added lift so i cant realy say.just for fun i will say you gain 20hp and 2" vacuum. someone who knows what thay are talking about may say otherwise.i assume the cam is a solid flat tappit,same lift.
Posted By: 6bblFLASH

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/08/11 10:41 PM

No they are both HYD.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/08/11 11:11 PM

can you provide more info on the build or is it a general q?
Posted By: 6bblFLASH

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/09/11 02:38 AM

Quote:

can you provide more info on the build or is it a general q?




Just B.S.ing ideas and what if`s.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/09/11 02:42 AM

wish there was more interest on boost here. sorry i am not much help.what i learn i forget easy.
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/09/11 03:01 PM

What are the valve timing events of these cams?
Posted By: goldmember

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/09/11 04:40 PM

@6 lbs of boost I don't think you'd gain anything.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/09/11 06:46 PM

i think having low boost is the point with that cam having less overlap but a little long on exhdur unless it is full exh system.
Posted By: Sport440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 01:18 AM

Quote:

What are the valve timing events of these cams?




284/108 cam------open---------close

intake--------34*BTDC-------70*ABDC

exhaust-------70*BBDC-------34*ATDC

278/290/114 cam----------------------

intake--------25*BTDC-------73*ABDC

exhaust-------79*BBDC-------31*ATDC

IMO, even though theres 6# of boost involved, the extra 6* of intake duration of the 284 cam will make more power. Sure it has more overlap, but at this small cam size it might not be a bad thing.

The overlap period alows the scavenging effect to take place. With enough boost and overlap you may not want that. But , with this small of cam and boost, that small snap of scavenge on overlap maybe usefull.

Id take the 6# of boost @ 284* duration over the 6# of boost @ 278* duration. Im just guessing/bench racing here.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 02:01 AM

thanks for posting the cam #'s
in the past i went from a 110 to a 113 and gained boost signal and VE% maintaining close maxlift #'s in the .540 range solid ft.8lbs/under.
i am going to print the spec to be sure it is what i think.
4300S .525/.555, 288/296, 254/264, 110° bds cam
.541/.559 289/297 252/260 113 comp cam
in op a .050 13/cl 59
ex op 63/cl 17
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 04:35 PM

That is a lot of overlap to be running with forced induction...
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 04:54 PM

Quote:

That is a lot of overlap to be running with forced induction...



are you talking about mine,what 1?or the op cam?i dont mean to take over the post just showing results.
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 05:04 PM

These cams:

284/108 cam------open---------close

intake--------34*BTDC-------70*ABDC

exhaust-------70*BBDC-------34*ATDC

278/290/114 cam----------------------

intake--------25*BTDC-------73*ABDC

exhaust-------79*BBDC-------31*ATDC

Of course, one could get a better idea of the true affective overlap if we knew the cam timing events at .050 lift rather than at 0 lift (I am assuming that is at 0 lift)
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 05:07 PM

"in op a .050 13/cl 59
ex op 63/cl 17 "

Even this cam (showing .050 numbers) has a lot of overlap for use on a forced induction cam.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 05:22 PM

a lot of missing info but 30/40* overlap would not be too bad.
Posted By: Sport440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 06:50 PM

Quote:

That is a lot of overlap to be running with forced induction...




Your right those events are from the advertised numbers. The .050 numbers for the 284 cam would be around 241* dur@ .050 if it were a MP cam. For easy math let me use 240*@ .050

those events would be

284/240@.050 cam----open--------close---

intake--------------12*BTDC------48*ABDC

exhaust-------------48*BBDC------12*ATDC

Witch gives 24* of overlap @ .050
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 09:37 PM

so how would you devide/define these cams use?[factors on using 1 over another]
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 09:50 PM

I don't know about defining them...

My new turbo cam will have a total of only 3 degrees overlap...
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 09:55 PM

i was reading on dodgetrucks.org a few yrs ago on a lot of magnum engine w/boost running very little overlap.
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 10:02 PM

Some of the real serious boost cams have intake valve events opening at 20-35 degrees PAST TDC! But those are for serious boost pressures!
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 10:13 PM

well for the 2 cam i would maybe use the 108 for a restricted head and the 114 for the better flowing head.your thaughts?
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 10:19 PM

Well selecting a cam should be more than looking at just one attribute. Just like a motor combo, you have to look at everything. I would never just pick a cam because of LSA or because of lift, etc.

As a general rule, a wider LSA will lessen the overlap, thus giving a smoother idle and broader powerband. But, with that said, a cam with an LSA of 110 could actually have less over lap than a cam with 112 LSA. You just have to look at the valve timing events.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/10/11 10:26 PM

for the theoretical engine we are working with your guess is as good or bad as mine.
Posted By: Sport440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/11/11 12:29 AM

Quote:

As a general rule, a wider LSA will lessen the overlap, thus giving a smoother idle and broader powerband. But, with that said, a cam with an LSA of 110 could actually have less over lap than a cam with 112 LSA. You just have to look at the valve timing events.





Overlap can only be changed two ways. LSA and Duration/split duration.

For instance if you wanted a 240* duration @.050cam on a 108 LSA Your overlap will be fixed.

You cant move the valve timing events around and change the overlap and have the same 240* @.050 cam on a 108 LSA



Further though Boost is Boost, But, Boost from a Turbo comes with more exhaust back pressure then a blown race motor requireing some different cam considerations.

Like you stated, sometimes not opening the intake valve 20* to 35* after TDC. The reason for this is that even after the exhaust valve closes the pressure in the cly may still be 10#+ So you need to allow the piston to travel lower in the bore to atleast to the equalizing pressure of the Turbos boost before you open the intake valve.

On a blown race motor your not going to have those kind of back pressure problems unless your running a highly restricive exhaust. Witch you wouldnt,unless your a fool

Back pressure can be reduced with turbos too by running a bigger turbo but you wont get the faster spooling you might want. Everythings a comprimise.

With the OP,s theoretical engine and 6# Mild boost Id run the bigger of the two small cams.

As a General rule BDS {Blower Drive Service} recommends when picking a cam for a mild blown motor. Pick it as if you were going going run it NA in the rpm range you want it to run at. They like 110 LSA for gas and 112 for Alchol.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/11/11 12:50 AM

even at 108 you would run that?^
Posted By: Sport440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/11/11 01:11 AM

Of the Two choices ,its the one that I think I theoretically would use. Id like to see a dyno comparison on both. IMO they would probably be to close to performance wise to one another to not really matter.

You posted a 20HP difference on one of your posts with a wider LSA, Im going to go back and read that again,
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/11/11 01:45 AM

and the factors to say 20 hp was the later intake opening,longer ex duration.
later intake opening=better facuum betterVE% i think.
longer exh dur cooler intake charge=more hp
Posted By: Sport440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/11/11 01:57 AM

I checked your numbers and your first 254/110LSA cam has 39* overlap.
your newer cam 252/113LSA has 30* overlap.

The OP,s 240/108LSA cam has 24* overlap{approx} its probably 24.5 based on a MP 484 cam.

So thats less overlap then your motor with its 30* so 24* should be better yet.

So I think the overlap is acceptible of the 108 cam. The duration of 240* of the 108 vs the 232* .050 of the 114 cam will be the Trump card, for power on this "Theoretical Combo" IMHO between the two cams listed as options.

Just bench racing here, dont know for sure. But If i were building the OP,s combo in my garage, deciding on witch cam. Im picking the 108LSA 284/241
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/11/11 02:22 AM

interesting now that all of the figures are out with the op cams.i need to ponder them more.
[I checked your numbers and your first 254/110LSA cam has 39* overlap.
your new cam 252/113LSA has 30* overlap.]


for my cams the 110 cam would not make boost past 8 psi even at 25% OD on the blower it quit at 5%OD.[10.90/? with the 113 cam the carbs held it back at 10 lbs at 10%OD[10.41/129
the cam in mine now is .646/.631 291/306 @ .020 260/269 @ .050
.050 in op 21 cl 59/exh op 69 cl 19 with 40* overlap at .050 without lash on a solid roller[.018 I/E] w 14lbs boost and more.
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/11/11 04:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

As a general rule, a wider LSA will lessen the overlap, thus giving a smoother idle and broader powerband. But, with that said, a cam with an LSA of 110 could actually have less over lap than a cam with 112 LSA. You just have to look at the valve timing events.





Overlap can only be changed two ways. LSA and Duration/split duration.

For instance if you wanted a 240* duration @.050cam on a 108 LSA Your overlap will be fixed.

You cant move the valve timing events around and change the overlap and have the same 240* @.050 cam on a 108 LSA





Correct. I hope I did not give the impression that you can change overlap once it is ground in the cam, because as you stated, you can't. I meant that when you have the cam ground, you can change the LSA then to change the over lap.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/11/11 03:15 PM

thanks for keeping the topic going.i dont know anything to keep it going from here. i guess i will pack some more boxes.i am moving.
Posted By: Sport440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/12/11 02:00 AM

Quote:

interesting now that all of the figures are out with the op cams.i need to ponder them more.
[I checked your numbers and your first 254/110LSA cam has 39* overlap.
your new cam 252/113LSA has 30* overlap.]


for my cams the 110 cam would not make boost past 8 psi even at 25% OD on the blower it quit at 5%OD.[10.90/? with the 113 cam the carbs held it back at 10 lbs at 10%OD[10.41/129
the cam in mine now is .646/.631 291/306 @ .020 260/269 @ .050
.050 in op 21 cl 59/exh op 69 cl 19 with 40* overlap at .050 without lash on a solid roller[.018 I/E] w 14lbs boost and more.





First, can you fix my error in your capture of my quote. I stated 242*"incorrect" instead of the 252* for the 113 LSA cam.

Second, Im a NA guy and not a boost guy so Im just bench racing for the OP, because he"s a local guy. So as not to hijack his post, "more cam thoughts" But Im going to include yours.


In requards to your opinion of not using the 108 LSA, Id like to ask your reasons or reasoning in this case.

Also, I cant explain your boost differences. Wheres the boost being lost? Not in the overlap,IMO So where? Let me lay out your 3 cams along with the OP,s 108 LSA cam in a comparative way to see if it helps.

duration .050---LSA--OL--boost---OD%--IO.BTDC

OP,s 240 @.050--108--24-----NA--------12*BTDC

MS,s 254 @.050--110--39----8psi-25%---17*BTDC

MS,s 252 @.050--113--30---10psi-10%---13*BTDC

M,260/268@.050--112--40---14psi-NA/%--21*BTDC

Not being a blower guy, I dont understand the boost problems between the 254 and the 260/268 cam. What are your thoughts.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/12/11 02:17 AM

i would only embarrass myself by letting you think i could explain it.
i thaught it may be a cracked port leaking for all i knew.a cam change made it better and i left it at that going from cam 1to cam 2.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/12/11 02:58 AM

from jegs helpfull tips on blower cams.
it is to help retain cylinder pressure with 112/114 lsa.

edit:i forgot to drag it back.
Supercharger Engine Camshafts
The choice of camshaft can make or break a blower motor. A legend in the industry, Lunati offers several camshafts specifically designed to work with Weiand blower kits. In addition, the following are a few basic guidelines for selecting the proper cam for your motor. Obviously, the amount of boost your supercharger produces is going to be a factor in choosing a camshaft. Weiand offers three different levels of superchargers, and each requires a different type of cam.

The "mildest" of Weiand's blowers are the Pro-Street superchargers, which are set to produce from 5 to 7 pounds of boost. The company recommends a hydraulic cam for these applications - where the engine will not be spun past 6,500 rpm and has several grinds available. All of these cams are ground on a 112 to 114° lobe center line, which helps maintain cylinder pressure to maximize horsepower at these lower boost levels. Keeping the cylinder pressure up also gives you excellent throttle response. The milder cams that Weiand offers are great for street performance enthusiasts who want to gain about 100 to 120 streetable horsepower. The company also offers slightly "bigger" cams for the next performance level up.

For 6-71 and 8-71 blowers, Weiand again recommends running a hydraulic cam, as long as you keep the boost level below 10 PSI. Weiand also offers cams for these type of applications. For your higher boost levels (which includes all 10-71, 12-71, and 14-71 applications) in gasoline burning engines, the company recommends running a flat tappet or roller cam with a 110° lobe center line. This cam design provides good overall power on pump gas and also aids in engine cooling. Plus, the 110° center line provides even sharper throttle response and helps lower initial cylinder pressure (you won't miss the cylinder pressure with these blowers, since they make plenty of boost).

Posted By: drdan

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/12/11 03:31 PM

440 and metalstorm, Could the boost increase that metalstorm saw an indication that the new cam wasn't flowing as much? The only way that I can see a cam making more boost on a blower motor is it is not using as much of the intake charge and it is backing up more pressure, seen as boost; as the supercharger will always be pushing out the same amount of air as long as the pulleys are not changed. Or another reason is if the motor is being wound out at a higher rpm to spin the rotors faster to make more boost, ie. flow more air. Am I thinking correctly? I've followed metalstorm and am building a blown 440 and am trying to pick a cam/lifter setup. I have a procharged SBC that I put a 110 LSA cam in and seem to have no issues, with the reason being that the overlap will keep the street driven exhaust valves cooler. Dan.
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/12/11 03:55 PM

it could have even been valve spring psi that i could not gain psi.150# seat with cam 1#.the springs were spec from bds with that cam.
as for the restriction and gaining boost psi yes that would be a possibility in some casses like overlap and less going out the exhaust.an added note that my cranking psi went from 100# to 130 with the cam change #1 to #2.
Posted By: CW25

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/13/11 05:11 PM

Boost is just a measure of restriction in the system. I ran 452 heads on a 383 with a 224* flat tappet cam and 7.5:1 comp. It ran 12.64 at about 13 psi. Built a new much more free flowing combo same degree duration cam better heads and little higher compression. 9:1 and ran 12.36 at 4 psi. My point is who cares what boost is as it is a measure of restriction. What did the car dyno or run on the quarter with the same pullies and the different cams?
Posted By: blownzoom440

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/13/11 10:15 PM

i cant recall the ET gain but it was a couple tenths.[.200 i think]
Posted By: 602heavy

Re: More cam Thoughts - 03/15/11 02:57 AM

Quote:

Just benchracing a few thoughts with some freinds:
You have a motor with a ROOTS type supercharger making 375hp.on a dyno.
Cam is 108C/L and 68* overlap 284* duration.
Makes 6-lbs boost.
Swap cams to a 114 C/L 56* overlap 278/290 duration cam, same 6-lbs boost,,,,,,, How much power difference would you expect?????????




Just joining you guys on the bench racing here ...........my thoughts would be the less overlap the better with only 6lbs boost as cooling wont be an issue , too much overlap when using boost will have air/fuel wasted out of exhaust port , boosted engines will tolerate a later opening intake valve due to difference in manifold pressure over non boosted...........not sure a split pattern is the best way to go with the boost you're running , the later closing exhaust valve may hinder cylinder fill.

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