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...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS

Posted By: 67Charger

...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 12/28/10 08:24 AM

I'm headed over to Bob Lambeck's place on Thursday to dyno-tune the 496 after pulling it post Silver State Classic oil-starvation due to an incorrectly set adjustable bypass. I replaced all the bearings after I found some mild signs of starvation. I also found I had insufficient chamfer clearance and most of the bearingsd had a tiny ring of copper on the outside from rubbing the fat radius. New narrow bearings with hand-clearanced edges solved that problem.

Last time I had it dyno'd was when I built it in a mad rush to make it to MATS after killing the crank at March Meet. There was no time to tune, just a break in with a bad carb, then one pull with the replacement carb. We knew it was pig rich, but had to go with it for the sake of time. After pulling 8 jet sizes out it picked up over 3 tenths.

What do you think it will make now? I won't spoil your guesses with the old numbers unless requested.

440 +.040, stroked to 496 with a 440source 4.15 kit
10.44:1 compression, 91 octane pump gas
Holley 1000HP
MP M1 single plane intake
.597/.607 257°/259° @.050 sold flat tappet
Eddie RPM, unported, port machining transitions smoothed/gasket matched
2 1/8"/3.5" TTI headers
MP distributor, 35° total

ETA: Engine dyno, not chassis

Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/28/10 09:14 AM

570 hp....
Posted By: moparniac

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/28/10 12:53 PM

562HP (engine dyno)
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/28/10 03:02 PM

570...562...

WOW! I will be pretty impressed if that motor makes close to 700 hp at the crank!!!

I will guess 450 rwhp
Posted By: 2QUICK4U

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/28/10 04:28 PM

522 hp
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/28/10 04:57 PM

should have specified "engine dyno"
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/28/10 05:12 PM

Ah, in that case I will guess 568
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/28/10 07:05 PM

615 HP at 6100 to 6400 RPm and 640+ ft. lbs at or close to 4300 RPM The results depends on the local weather, dyno brand and settings on the engine dyno
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/28/10 09:49 PM

Quote:

570 hp....

I meant engine dyno....
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/30/10 02:41 PM

'tis still the wee morning hours over here, and I'm loading the engine up to go. Any last guesses?
Posted By: PJ68RT

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/30/10 03:26 PM

605Hp @ 5800
628Ft-Lbs @ 4300
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/30/10 05:54 PM

Quote:

'tis still the wee morning hours over here, and I'm loading the engine up to go. Any last guesses?

My 906 headed 469 w/a solid cam made 615hp and 580tq on Pettis`s dyno so I would HOPE for a bit more.............good luck.
Posted By: Jeepmon

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/30/10 06:14 PM

645-ish

Good luck Dan
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 05:08 AM

Dan...where's the results?
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 06:15 AM

609.1 @ 5500
647.9 @ 4400

I'll post the average numbers in a few minutes, but it is a big, fat, flat power curve.
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 07:21 AM

very nice!
Posted By: Phil Saran

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 08:17 AM

Can I ask ball park the cost of running your engine on Lambecks
dyno?? I assume 3 pulls.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 05:17 PM

Cost: $550 for 9 hours and 21 pulls.


Correction: Final was 609.1 @ 5700 and 647.7 @ 4500
over 600 HP from 5200 - 5700
over 600 ft.lb. from 3700 - 5200

First run was 575/604, and every run we would change 1 thing.

On 91 octane, the engine made more power each time we took timing away. It runs best at 30° total, not the 36 I was previously running.

The carb ended up wanting 7 more sizes on the primary and one less on the secondary for a final of 84/88.

Swapping the HS air bleeds from 25 to 29 gave me about 5 on the top and got rid of a rich condition past 5000.

Adding a 1" 4 hole over a 1 inch open was worth 13 HP and 9 ft.lb. over no spacers at all.

My 14x3 paper air filter cost me 10HP over no cleaner at all, a 14x3 4 ply K&N only cost me 2HP.

There is a slight surge over 5500 that couldn't be tuned out since it is a result of not enough exhaust duration to compensate for my tiny ports. Only fixed by porting or a new cam.

Further pulls revealed the engine was still running well past 6600, but power was down to 552 out there.

I'll post copied of the dyno sheets in a little while.
Posted By: Streetwize

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 05:27 PM

Nice!!!

Saw it late but I was gonna guess 600/600....on paper it looked very close to my old 508 Stage V/Hyd roller combo that I figued to be in the ~620 range.

Guys looking for a 'default' 500" 600/600 combo need look no further File it inthe tech archives!!
Posted By: Jeepmon

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 05:35 PM

Quote:

609.1 @ 5500
647.9 @ 4400






1.22HP per cube..


Are you happy?
Posted By: JACK1440

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 05:38 PM

Thanks 67Charger on a great post. love to see what chages like a 1" spacer can do to a motor. congrats of the good numbers!
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 05:40 PM

Quote:

Cost: $550 for 9 hours and 21 pulls.


Correction: Final was 609.1 @ 5700 and 647.7 @ 4500
over 600 HP from 5200 - 5700
over 600 ft.lb. from 3700 - 5200

First run was 575/604, and every run we would change 1 thing.

On 91 octane, the engine made more power each time we took timing away. It runs best at 30° total, not the 36 I was previously running.

The carb ended up wanting 7 more sizes on the primary and one less on the secondary for a final of 84/88.

Swapping the HS air bleeds from 25 to 29 gave me about 5 on the top and got rid of a rich condition past 5000.

Adding a 1" 4 hole over a 1 inch open was worth 13 HP and 9 ft.lb. over no spacers at all.

My 14x3 paper air filter cost me 10HP over no cleaner at all, a 14x3 4 ply K&N only cost me 2HP.

There is a slight surge over 5500 that couldn't be tuned out since it is a result of not enough exhaust duration to compensate for my tiny ports. Only fixed by porting or a new cam.

Further pulls revealed the engine was still running well past 6600, but power was down to 552 out there.

I'll post copied of the dyno sheets in a little while.

As many have stated in the past, some of these tweeks MAY or may not make the car go down the track quicker. After my chassis dyno, I needed more jet to get best et`s but hey, good numbers and good luck at the track.
Posted By: BradH

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 06:00 PM

Quote:

There is a slight surge over 5500 that couldn't be tuned out since it is a result of not enough exhaust duration to compensate for my tiny ports. Only fixed by porting or a new cam.


How exactly did this "surge" manifest itself? Got any dyno printouts that show the air flow data along w/ the full pull's torque & HP #s? How high did you spin it?
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 06:17 PM

Thanks all,

The surge was very audible, and the a/f ratio oscilated a fair bit. Slight variation on the otherwise smooth power curve. No intake flow data. After inspecting my cam specs we both agreed on the lack of exhaust duration. Some tunes had a more or less pronounced effect, but it was never gone.

As a rule we shot for the best averages between 4100 and 6200, which happened to be the same run as the best peaks. Some changes did give better peaks than previous runs but losses on the averages.

My scanner is on the fritz, so the result sheets will have to wait until this evening.

On the whole, I am very happy with the results.
Posted By: Tig

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 06:35 PM

Quote:


Adding a 1" 4 hole over a 1 inch open was worth 13 HP and 9 ft.lb. over no spacers at all.

My 14x3 paper air filter cost me 10HP over no cleaner at all, a 14x3 4 ply K&N only cost me 2HP.



Great info Were the above numbers @ peak?
Thanks.
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 07:56 PM

Are you saying you stacked a 1" tapered over a 1" open? Will that fit under the hood?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 08:13 PM

My 518 had a small miss or surge bewteen 5200 and 5600 RPM the last time it was on the dyno It has never had that before with the eddy heads and any intake and carbs I have tested The last dyno session I had the CNC ported 440-1 heads on it with the same cam as before, 260 @ .050 intake side and 266 @ .050 on the exhaust using 1.64 ratio rockers I have since switch the 440-1 heads to the 528 bracket motor and put the SR heads on the 518 motor, I'll dyno test the 528 motor with the -1 heads on it and see if it surges or misses like the 518 did I did have a set of dyno headers that where a little smaller on the exhaust ports than the heads are I do have a seto hedman heades made for the Indy -1 keads that I will use on the next dyno tets, they where in the car nad I was to lazy to remove them for that dyno test, stupid me I'll post the results, probally retest it late in January, weather, time and money allowing don't we love dyno testing Thumper is correct as far as what works best on the dyno, engine or chassis dynos, doesn't always get the best results in the car at the track or on the road My message is to test, test and test some more once the motor is in the car and being raced Congratulations on the results
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 08:22 PM

Dan...are you going to make the Famoso track rental?
Posted By: BradH

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 09:12 PM

Quote:

The surge was very audible, and the a/f ratio oscilated a fair bit. Slight variation on the otherwise smooth power curve. No intake flow data. After inspecting my cam specs we both agreed on the lack of exhaust duration. Some tunes had a more or less pronounced effect, but it was never gone.


Not being there, this is kind of a s.w.a.g., but that sounds more like you got into valve train instability from about 5500 on up, not an indication of insufficient exhaust duration.

It looks like you're running some fairly aggressive solid flat-tappet lobes and those things will start to act up at high(er) RPM w/o a fairly stiff spring load. What sort of springs do you have and what are they set up for closed & open pressures?

I don't know if you can make the same interpetation from A/F ratio fluctuation, but when the measured air flow #s start showing fluctuations above a certain RPM, that can be a sign of the valve train losing control.
Posted By: BSB67

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 09:50 PM

Thanks for posting.

What carb are you running?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 10:10 PM

Quote:

Thanks all,

The surge was very audible, and the a/f ratio oscilated a fair bit. Slight variation on the otherwise smooth power curve. No intake flow data. After inspecting my cam specs we both agreed on the lack of exhaust duration. Some tunes had a more or less pronounced effect, but it was never gone.

As a rule we shot for the best averages between 4100 and 6200, which happened to be the same run as the best peaks. Some changes did give better peaks than previous runs but losses on the averages.

My scanner is on the fritz, so the result sheets will have to wait until this evening.

On the whole, I am very happy with the results.



Nice job.... could you change the RPM of the surge
or did it start at the same point each run(even with
added fuel.... if you couldnt change the rpm I would
think valve train also
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: ...speaking of dynos... going on Thursday - 12/31/10 10:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Adding a 1" 4 hole over a 1 inch open was worth 13 HP and 9 ft.lb. over no spacers at all.

My 14x3 paper air filter cost me 10HP over no cleaner at all, a 14x3 4 ply K&N only cost me 2HP.



Great info Were the above numbers @ peak?
Thanks.



...that was at each peak. I didn't run the whole chart looking for the biggest difference, but not a bad idea to do.

Quote:

Are you saying you stacked a 1" tapered over a 1" open? Will that fit under the hood?



Yes, that's what I meant, and no, I have to use my other hood with the scoop.

Quote:

Quote:

The surge was very audible, and the a/f ratio oscilated a fair bit. Slight variation on the otherwise smooth power curve. No intake flow data. After inspecting my cam specs we both agreed on the lack of exhaust duration. Some tunes had a more or less pronounced effect, but it was never gone.


Not being there, this is kind of a s.w.a.g., but that sounds more like you got into valve train instability from about 5500 on up, not an indication of insufficient exhaust duration.

It looks like you're running some fairly aggressive solid flat-tappet lobes and those things will start to act up at high(er) RPM w/o a fairly stiff spring load. What sort of springs do you have and what are they set up for closed & open pressures?

I don't know if you can make the same interpetation from A/F ratio fluctuation, but when the measured air flow #s start showing fluctuations above a certain RPM, that can be a sign of the valve train losing control.



The springs are COMP 928's or 927's, I'll have to check and get back to you on the number and specs. I never measured the actual installed pressures, just the calculated numbers using my measured heights and the listed specs.

Quote:

Thanks for posting.

What carb are you running?



Holley 1000HP, List 80513-1
Posted By: topbrent

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/01/11 05:12 AM

Quote:

67Charger:

440 +.040, stroked to 496 with a 440source 4.15 kit
10.44:1 compression, 91 octane pump gas
Holley 1000HP
MP M1 single plane intake
.597/.607 257°/259° @.050 solid flat tappet
Eddie RPM heads, unported, port machining transitions smoothed/gasket matched
2 1/8"/3.5" TTI headers
MP distributor, 35° total

Final was 609.1 @ 5700 and 647.7 @ 4500
- over 600 HP from 5200 - 5700
- over 600 ft.lb. from 3700 - 5200




Nice results.

- What is the lobe separation on that cam?
- Is the cam installed advanced?
Posted By: viperblue72

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/01/11 08:05 AM

Very interesting info. Thank you for sharing with everyone. Do let us know when you get some track results.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/04/11 10:26 AM

VIDEO



Run 20 - max power

Run 21 - no change, extended run to 6600 for full power curve
Posted By: BradH

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/04/11 03:21 PM

Can you post any of the run sheets w/ all the captured data?
Posted By: dragram440

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/04/11 05:52 PM

That is sweet!! It gives me a good idea of what my charger makes for power. How much does your car weigh? Is this the same combo as is your signature e.t's? What gear and converter are you running? What 60' times are you running?
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/04/11 06:42 PM

Yes, it is the same setup, but it was pre-tuning. I just picked up 34 HP and 34 ft.lb over those numbers. Car is 4000# with me. 4.10's in a Dana and a 8" PTC stalling at 5000.


The numbers:


Curves:



A/F: not the best, but it made most power and we were out of time. Averaged 13.4, dipped to 12.6 at about 5700. Adding more fuel to the secondaries lost power.

Posted By: dragram440

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/04/11 07:10 PM

Looks like a good combo. A little head work and I bet it would really wake it up. Those Eddy heads obviously work pretty good out of box. It is a similar combo to mine but mine is 12.5-1 comp. solid roller cam stage vi heads worked over m1 intake 3.91 gears 5000 8" coan converter 3800 lbs. no dyno numbers.
Posted By: earthmover

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/04/11 08:03 PM

what does the rpm head flow out the box???? thanks mike
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/04/11 08:06 PM

I beleive it is RATED at 291@.600, but I forget exactly. I also think it is a bit optomistic.
Posted By: tboomer

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/04/11 08:13 PM

Pretty good results,there!! Here is an excellent read from the tech archive about RPM heads by Dwayne Porter. Some good reading!
http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/11.html
Posted By: TexasStroker

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/04/11 08:23 PM

Great numbers and vids!
Posted By: earthmover

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/04/11 08:50 PM

nice #s . will be a nice ride aswell..mike
Posted By: Quicksilver440

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/04/11 10:09 PM

Quote:

I beleive it is RATED at [Email]291@.600[/Email], but I forget exactly. I also think it is a bit optomistic.



Yep...I think most people are seeing about 275@.600 out of the box....by they advertise 290 or so.
Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: ...speaking of dynos, going Thursday FULL RESULTS - 01/18/11 02:44 AM

i'll throw my .02 about the surge......IMO....it aint the exhaust duration.

it sounds like the dyno load valve was reaching the end of its travel at the upper end of the pull.
this is often an issue with an SF dyno when you have a large cube/high torque motor and try and make pulls from a relatively low starting rpm, and try to make pulls that extend over 2500rpm.
the absorber isnt that efficient at lower rpms, so you need to run a lot of water through it to hold the load.
as the rpm rises, the efficiency rises very quickly, and the load valve has to open way up to get rid of that extra water, and you run out of travel on the valve at a reasonably low rpm.
if you start a few hundred rpm higher(where the absorber is more efficient), you can restrict the inlet water flow, which will generally allow you to run to a noticably higher rpm before the servo valve gets near the end of its travel.

if it wasnt a load control issue, then my vote would be for some sort of valvetrain dynamic issue(looking at how steeply the TQ curve falls off the last few hundred rpm).


in any case....those are quite good results from that basic combo.
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