Moparts

Done for the season...(Update)

Posted By: Dads426

Done for the season...(Update) - 10/25/10 02:30 AM

Well, the motor let go in the lights at Capitol tonight. Ran rough to the turnoff, then quit with water pouring out of the driver's header after Kevin got it stopped. DRE diaper did it's job if anything came through the pan or block (haven't pulled it yet). Water poured out of #1 and #3 plugs with #1 having a flattened electrode. Valvetrain looks OK, but the motor is locked solid. Will get it apart next weekend with pics. And we had one more points race with the 422 series
Posted By: 383man

Re: Done for the season... - 10/25/10 02:33 AM

Bummer as I did not see that. Gary ended up winning it all. Ron
Posted By: WILD BILL

Re: Done for the season... - 10/25/10 02:34 AM

I hope it's minimal
Posted By: Dads426

Re: Done for the season... - 10/25/10 02:39 AM

Quote:

Bummer as I did not see that. Gary ended up winning it all. Ron




Glad to hear Gary won it. If the payout was like last year he probably got $800.
Posted By: 383man

Re: Done for the season... - 10/25/10 02:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Bummer as I did not see that. Gary ended up winning it all. Ron




Glad to hear Gary won it. If the payout was like last year he probably got $800.


Add $200. to that. He was very happy. Ron
Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Done for the season... - 10/25/10 06:07 PM

sorry about your bad luck,hope the damage is minimal
Posted By: Dads426

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 01:36 AM

Pulled the head tonight and #1 exhaust valve snapped the head off, flipped over in the cylinder and punched a big hole in the head, plus cracked the block. I think the block can be sleeved so if I can find another piston we may go that route as a spare motor (only has about 50 runs on it). The Dick Landy head is toast. The valves were Ferreira stainless versions; not cheap and the guides were bronze-inserts. Everything was checked by my machine shop earlier this year, so the only thing I can think of is component failure or the valve stuck in the guide. We had Teflon seals on the valves and they may limit the amount of oil to the exhaust (just a guess on my part); they may work too well. Piston to valve clearance was more than adequate and there is no evidence of other valves contacting the piston (if anything, the intakes would hit before the exhaust). Major bummer It's all Mr. Yuck's fault. His engine is contagious.

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Posted By: Dads426

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 01:37 AM

Note in the picture above the new dual sparkplug max wedge head...

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Posted By: Dads426

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 01:38 AM

This fell on the floor when we pulled the head.

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Posted By: Dads426

Re: Done for the season...(Update) - 10/26/10 01:41 AM

OK, so what is the general consensus on why an engine drops a valve? Guide too tight (sticking)/loose (off-center on seat)? Lack of oil? Material failure? Enquiring minds want to know.
Posted By: grncpe

Re: Done for the season...(Update) - 10/26/10 02:18 AM

Who does your machine work?
Posted By: Dads426

Re: Done for the season...(Update) - 10/26/10 02:26 AM

Rockville Ring & Bearing did the heads, Burtonsville did the shortblock. Rockville said the guides were OK; seats were touched up when the new valves were purchased. Guides were new when we got the heads. They were in the trunk of a 63 max wedge Dodge from California that a friend bought. Will probably let Burtonsville do the heads next time...
Posted By: grncpe

Re: Done for the season...(Update) - 10/26/10 02:34 AM

Steve is a good guy.I dealt with him when he was @ Racing Parts...FWIW Ed Thompson from Thompson Machine does really good work too.Been going to him since 1990.And my junk rolls pretty good.Tom
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 02:38 AM

Sorry about the damage...........as far as teflon seals, I ran em for several thousand street miles and several passes for 5 1/2 years w/out issues. Maybe tight guides?
Posted By: SuperStocker

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 02:52 AM

My guess would be inadequate spring pressure but, if they were the Ferrea 5000 series valve, they are really nothing more than a street replacement.
Posted By: Dads426

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 03:06 AM

Springs are Trick Flow with seat/open pressure spec'd for the cam (MP 590). I checked them before installation. Valves are Ferrea 6217 & 6250.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 05:19 PM

Quote:

Note in the picture above the new dual sparkplug max wedge head...




mine looks worse... I'll make you a killer deal on my slighty hurt 440 block...comes w/ 6 good diamond pistons..lol
Sorry to here about your troubles guys. Thought I was the only one. Well at least Kev can help me drop my new enigne when I get it...hahaha

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Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 05:24 PM

Soon to be between the fenders...once it's painted Hemi Orange of course

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Posted By: Dads426

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 05:36 PM

Quote:

My guess would be inadequate spring pressure but, if they were the Ferrea 5000 series valve, they are really nothing more than a street replacement.




Interesting reply from Ferrea: "I would need to see the valves to do an analysis, but generally when a head of an exhaust valve comes off the valve is out of control, ie not enough spring pressure on the seat, so the valve is bouncing not seating. This bouncing creates harmonics in the valvetrain and lessen spring pressures further."

I wouldn't have guessed this given that we set up the springs to meet the pressures spec'd by Mopar Performance. I am reluctant to go higher for fear of wiping the cam. 6000 series are considered their competition valves, so a street valve may have failed sooner.
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 05:41 PM

Quote:

Springs are Trick Flow with seat/open pressure spec'd for the cam (MP 590). I checked them before installation. Valves are Ferrea 6217 & 6250.


Ouch, sorry to hear of these failures.

I don't think the MP 590 needs a lot of spring pressure, but what were the actual installed numbers? (130/330?). Check the spring to see if it is broke, and if not, the current pressures. Since it broke at the finish line, what was the max RPM?
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 05:44 PM

what do the say about an intake...lol I was running ISKY 8005A springs "Valve Springs, Dual, 1.530 in. Outside Diameter, 400 lbs./in. Rate, 1.160 in. Coil Bind Height" as advised by the cam maker. I doubt they lacked the spring pressure as mentioned above.
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 05:48 PM

Quote:

I was running ISKY 8005A springs


When the installed height is set correctly (1.87"), those springs are perfect for the job (135/360), IMO. Many people have run those springs with the MP 590 cam, and even slightly more aggressive cams. At least to 6800 rpm or so.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 05:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I was running ISKY 8005A springs


When the installed height is set correctly, those springs are perfect for the job (135/360), IMO. Many people have run those springs with the MP 590 cam, and even slightly more aggressive cams. At least to 6800 rpm or so.




yeah mine were set...I was running a custom scott brown cam. 242/254 548/540 solid w/ 1.5 roller rockers. Had MAYBE 200 miles on the motor...zero runs. Wasted 2 brand new diamond pistons, hacked up on wall bad and buggered up one seat and possibly 2 guides as the ex valve bent as well. At least I was only doing maybe 2500 rpm.
Posted By: David_in_St_Croi

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 06:09 PM

Quote:

Springs are Trick Flow with seat/open pressure spec'd for the cam (MP 590). I checked them before installation. Valves are Ferrea 6217 & 6250.




Check the spring pressure now and compare to the original pressure. I lost an exhaust valve head to low spring pressure from tired springs. At least that was DRAM's conclusion. Our block was junk due to a crack at the bottom of the cylinder that went into the main bearing web.





The Edelbrock heads were salvagable and now the RR has a nice 452 with a roller cam and plenty of spring pressure.
Posted By: Dads426

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 07:25 PM




I don't think the MP 590 needs a lot of spring pressure, but what were the actual installed numbers? (130/330?). Check the spring to see if it is broke, and if not, the current pressures. Since it broke at the finish line, what was the max RPM?




I'll have to look it up in the log when I get home. We had to shim the springs slightly to get the pressures up to spec. They were far from coil bind. I'll measure some when we get them off to see if they weakened. Ferrea wants the valve, spring, retainer and locks for analysis. Motor was shifted at 6000; through the traps at 6100.
Posted By: grncpe

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 11:08 PM

Oh I forgot to mention.This must be a Maryland Mopar thing as Cindy Sharp in the Hustler Dart dropped a valve at Capitol last week @ the Jasper shootout...Real nasty broke a rod,cam,block,trans and everything else you can think of....
So it could be worse...
My motor is out due to Cat rockers eating the shafts and sent metal through the whole motor....
Must be the Fall thing for the mopars

anyway you may have seen her car before..Try to load a pic from Norwalk

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Posted By: bigdad

Re: Done for the season... - 10/26/10 11:10 PM

Yuck, thats a sad sight to see ..

Hope 2011 brings much better luck
Posted By: Bill_LBSR

Re: Done for the season... - 10/27/10 12:32 AM

Yeh saw the Hustler Dart at the Jasper shootout last week.......really good looking car
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Done for the season... - 10/27/10 01:26 AM

Quote:

Oh I forgot to mention.This must be a Maryland Mopar thing as Cindy Sharp in the Hustler Dart dropped a valve at Capitol last week @ the Jasper shootout...


You guys are making me nervous. I am debating if I will do a teardown inspection/freshen this winter or run it another year. This motor has treated me very well and I don't want to lose any parts. I have at least two, maybe 3 more races I want to do this fall.
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Done for the season... - 10/27/10 01:32 AM

Quote:

Ferrea wants the valve, spring, retainer and locks for analysis. Motor was shifted at 6000; through the traps at 6100.


It would take a really bad/broken spring at that low of rpm. My guess is harmonics or a bad fit on the retainer is what they are likely looking for.
Posted By: Dads426

Re: Done for the season... - 10/27/10 01:54 AM

Pulled what's left of the exhaust stem, spring and intake valve & spring. Spring pressure is 125 closed (off 5 pounds from when it was installed). Open pressure is about 340 lbs (I didn't check open pressure when I assembled the heads). Both springs look fine, pressures are the same. Retainer fits well and I had spring cups to locate the springs (dual with no damper). These pressures are in line with what Mopar recommends, so I'm at a loss as to why it failed. I got an interesting email the the original mechanic on the car, Dave Reitz: "When we first went to fuel (Nitro) our machinist was big on bronze wall guides and we quickly found that they were too tight and seized."


BTW, Nice Dart!
Posted By: Kevins493

Re: Done for the season... - 10/27/10 03:25 AM

I took the head of the valve to school today and showed it to my mechanics of materials professor. He seems to think it was cracked.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Done for the season... - 10/27/10 02:22 PM

Quote:

Yuck, thats a sad sight to see ..

Hope 2011 brings much better luck




no doubt, ripped the wall too, pan was full of water. At least it didn't happen at 6k. It would have been a big mess to clean up.
Posted By: Dads426

Re: Done for the season... - 10/27/10 07:29 PM

Quote:

no doubt, ripped the wall too, pan was full of water. At least it didn't happen at 6k. It would have been a big mess to clean up.




That is why we have a diaper on the motor so Kevin won't have to wear one

I'm leaning towards a stuck valve. When he was starting it that day the motor was spinning over like it had a low cylinder, maybe from a bent valve. Funny thing is, it ran its best ET the run before it let go. When we ran sprints we had a big problem with siezing exhaust valves in the alky motors. Ended up running them a little looser with no seals.
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