Posted By: 416challenger
Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/17/08 06:30 PM
Is anyone racing with an A518 transmission? Has anyone switched from a 727 to A518? What kind of ET losses were seen from the switch?
Racing with A518 -46RH transmission
Posted By: YbNoRmAL
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/17/08 06:52 PM
I can't tell you any ET gain or loss, but I just wanted to say that Griner makes a fully manual valvebody for the 500/518s. You actually make the 3rd to OD shift with the shifter. 
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/17/08 08:08 PM
Quote:
Griner makes a fully manual valvebody for the 500/518s. You actually make the 3rd to OD shift with the shifter.
Wow, I didn't know that! Do they advertise this anywhere?
Anyway, to answer part of the original question...I use a 518/46RH in my Dakota. Not the original one now. I've had a non-lockup version for the past 5 years. Automatic valve body. I turn off the OD at the track.
Doesn't seem to do too bad for a small engine in a fairly heavy truck.
See sig for specs. A 727 "should" be a little quicker but haven't tried one yet because of my gears and highway driving.
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/17/08 08:34 PM
I'll know what the ET gains will be switching from a 46RE to a 727...As I get my CRT 727 installed.
"Supposedly", it "should" be close to a second faster with the 727. The weight differance alone is huge, I suspect close to 75 lbs more for the OD tranny.
"Supposedly", it "should" be close to a second faster with the 727. The weight differance alone is huge, I suspect close to 75 lbs more for the OD tranny.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/17/08 09:29 PM
Quote:
I'll know what the ET gains will be switching from a 46RE to a 727...As I get my CRT 727 installed.
"Supposedly", it "should" be close to a second faster with the 727. The weight differance alone is huge, I suspect close to 75 lbs more for the OD tranny.
is that correct , a SECOND faster ??? 75 lbs isn't even worth a tenth ???
Posted By: Jeepmon
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/17/08 09:34 PM
Quote:
is that correct , a SECOND faster ???
x2
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/17/08 09:35 PM
Mainly due to the internals...46RE is a power robber.
We'll see about the 1 second thing, just going by what a few builders have said...Then again, they wanted to sell a tranny.
We'll see about the 1 second thing, just going by what a few builders have said...Then again, they wanted to sell a tranny.
Posted By: Duner
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/18/08 12:26 AM
All I know for sure is that if it really is a full second.... a 727 would find it's way into my truck and pronto.
Posted By: headhunter
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/18/08 12:46 AM
i have the first 516 griner has done it has a pro tree trans brake with a sfi bell houseing it will be kinda cool to be able to cruise down the interstate with traffic and faster and still hammer out a good time the best of both worlds 
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/18/08 01:34 AM
Quote:
Mainly due to the internals...46RE is a power robber.
We'll see about the 1 second thing, just going by what a few builders have said...Then again, they wanted to sell a tranny.
I want some of whatever those guys were smoking. One second? Ain't no freakin way! That would put my little 318 into the elevens and that just ain't gonna happen from a tranny swap. I don't know what a 727 weighs but my 518 is about 170 lbs. A 727 could NOT be enough lighter (internally or externally) for a second in ET even if the OD internals were made of lead.
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/18/08 03:36 AM
There's a huge diff in weight between the 46RE and the 727.
I can pick up a 727 all day, but barely move a 46RE...
I just shipped a 46RE, with the 38 lb converter and the plywood box it weighed 301 lbs.
As far as the ET...I'll let you know. I'm just glad to be done with the OD tranny, and that's the primary reason I'm making the change.
I can pick up a 727 all day, but barely move a 46RE...
I just shipped a 46RE, with the 38 lb converter and the plywood box it weighed 301 lbs.
As far as the ET...I'll let you know. I'm just glad to be done with the OD tranny, and that's the primary reason I'm making the change.
Posted By: patrick
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/18/08 12:40 PM
comparing my old 904 to the A500 in my 5th ave, dry w/o torque converter or fluid, I'd guestimate the weight difference at about 70 lbs. weight differential between a 727 and 518 should be about the same. internals aren't drastically different in the front half, and the OD planetary is just another 727 gear cluster. if they were built equally (same converter, both rollerized or non rollerized, both steel or aluminum drum, etc), I'd wager you won't see a significant difference in E/T...MAYBE 1 or 2 tenths. I could see maybe another .1-.5 more maybe going from a 518/727 to a 904, because they are much smaller internally and take about 1/3 the power to spin.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/18/08 03:52 PM
Quote:
Mainly due to the internals...46RE is a power robber.
We'll see about the 1 second thing, just going by what a few builders have said...Then again, they wanted to sell a tranny.
you must be changing the internals also to lightweight components also ? i have been inside a 47RE and other than the 5 pinion planets its a 727 forward of the OD unit ????
Posted By: 416challenger
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/18/08 04:49 PM
Thanks for all the info. I called around yesterday to a few guys that sell performace parts for the A518 to find out what if any parts are interchangeable. I was told by SMR transmission that they are seeing up to a second and a half when changing from the A518 to the 727. The guy I talked to said it was because of the extra weight and the extra drag from the overdrive. I don't see how you would see that much change. I probably will just look into the gear vendors anyways.
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/18/08 05:44 PM
Quote:
I was told by SMR transmission that they are seeing up to a second and a half when changing from the A518 to the 727. The guy I talked to said it was because of the extra weight and the extra drag from the overdrive.
That statement right there would cause me to stay far away from that vendor. IF there was that much drag in OD, how would you ever get decent gas mileage out of one? It takes a TON of drag to slow a car down a full second.
Posted By: patrick
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/18/08 08:01 PM
Quote:Quote:
I was told by SMR transmission that they are seeing up to a second and a half when changing from the A518 to the 727. The guy I talked to said it was because of the extra weight and the extra drag from the overdrive.
That statement right there would cause me to stay far away from that vendor. IF there was that much drag in OD, how would you ever get decent gas mileage out of one? It takes a TON of drag to slow a car down a full second.
yeah, my BS meter is going off on that statement, BUT, there's no qualifications....I COULD MAYBE see that much improvement if it is a bone stock 518 w/stock converter, with a stock governor that probably forces it to shift ~4500 RPM, vs. a fully rollerized, aluminum drum, (maybe 904 internals) 727 with a good 9" converter....
Posted By: cheapstreetdustr
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/18/08 08:13 PM
i am not validating nor discrediting the statement about et improvement..
only to clearify...internal weight is very different than external weight..
especially the closer you get to the crank shaft.
if the intermal/recipricating parts of a 727 are
70 lbs lighter..then that would be substantial..
dont confuse this with haveing a bag of sakrete in your bed..
its two....totally different issues..
as far as if it decreased a second..?
i have no direct experince..so i wont comment.
cheapst
only to clearify...internal weight is very different than external weight..
especially the closer you get to the crank shaft.
if the intermal/recipricating parts of a 727 are
70 lbs lighter..then that would be substantial..
dont confuse this with haveing a bag of sakrete in your bed..
its two....totally different issues..
as far as if it decreased a second..?
i have no direct experince..so i wont comment.
cheapst
Posted By: Duner
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/18/08 11:56 PM
All I know is that if I could end up with a 9-second 4,000 truck just by swapping transmissions I'd be all over it! I think I could probably believe 4 or 5 tenths though. Even that's enough of a gain to make me really think about swapping.
From my days of herding Chevies down the track... I saw a 4 tenths difference between the Turbo 400 I was using and the Turbo 350 I swapped into it's place. Of course, neither of them have OD units. Then again, I don't really know what the difference are between them other than physical size.
From my days of herding Chevies down the track... I saw a 4 tenths difference between the Turbo 400 I was using and the Turbo 350 I swapped into it's place. Of course, neither of them have OD units. Then again, I don't really know what the difference are between them other than physical size.
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/19/08 02:30 AM
Well we're about to find out....
I'll post results.
I'll post results.
Posted By: Jeepmon
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/19/08 04:08 PM
Thanks.. we cant wait
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/19/08 06:44 PM
Do I detect just a hint of sarcasm? 
I do believe if someone took a stock computer controlled 46RE that was shifting at 4500 rpm, or when it felt like it (as they seem to do) and swapped in a built 727 with a manual valve body, the results would be surprising.
I do believe if someone took a stock computer controlled 46RE that was shifting at 4500 rpm, or when it felt like it (as they seem to do) and swapped in a built 727 with a manual valve body, the results would be surprising.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/19/08 09:15 PM
Quote:
I do believe if someone took a stock computer controlled 46RE that was shifting at 4500 rpm, or when it felt like it (as they seem to do) and swapped in a built 727 with a manual valve body, the results would be surprising.
If the shift rpm is all that's holding you back I wouldn't be giving all the credit to a 727 if you shifted it higher and went quicker. Why can't you shift your 46RE manually if you need higher shift points?
As for the 1 1/2 second claims by SMR....I've dealt with SMR in the past. In my (lengthy and very expensive) experience, there is certainly no lack of BS from that operation!
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/19/08 10:01 PM
I never said my 46RE was stock, and I never said it was holding me back.
I said...I'm going with a 727 because it's lighter and a three speed. I don't need/use/want an OD so why tow one down the 1/4 mile.
I said...I'm going with a 727 because it's lighter and a three speed. I don't need/use/want an OD so why tow one down the 1/4 mile.
Posted By: Duner
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/19/08 10:14 PM
I wish you'd hurry up and verify the performance gain!
(1) Because I know you really want it for yourself.
(2) Because it would help me talk myself into doing the swap right now... while it's relatively "easy"... without the engine, headers and exhaust system getting in the way.
(1) Because I know you really want it for yourself.
(2) Because it would help me talk myself into doing the swap right now... while it's relatively "easy"... without the engine, headers and exhaust system getting in the way.
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/19/08 11:36 PM
Me too...
Being that I don't have a transmission right now.
Being that I don't have a transmission right now.
Posted By: Jeepmon
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/20/08 12:35 AM
Quote:
Do I detect just a hint of sarcasm?
Nope.. no sarcasm... I REALLY want to know if there is a drastic difference... I'm looking for an OD unit to run in my car and if the performance is down a full second.. Then I'd probably stay away from the 500/518
Posted By: Evil_Ways
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/20/08 02:15 AM
I REALLY want to know if there is a drastic difference... I'm looking for an OD unit to run in my car and if the performance is down a full second.. Then I'd probably stay away from the 500/518
Me too.
Posted By: Jeepmon
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/26/08 11:00 PM
bump... any update yet?
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/27/08 12:08 AM
Still waiting on my CRT tranmission, John's having back problems, so his time to build transmissions is limited. Having been there myself, he can take all the time he wants.
One thing I might point out...I'm breaking the golden rule of "one mod at a time". When I hit the track again, it will be with a Detroit Locker (replacing my toasted peg leg Auburn LSD), Monoleafs and Caltracs...A 3800-4000 stall converter (was 2800), and a new tune on my PCM.
That and no AC/Heater....The list goes on.
One thing I might point out...I'm breaking the golden rule of "one mod at a time". When I hit the track again, it will be with a Detroit Locker (replacing my toasted peg leg Auburn LSD), Monoleafs and Caltracs...A 3800-4000 stall converter (was 2800), and a new tune on my PCM.
That and no AC/Heater....The list goes on.
Posted By: cudadoug
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/27/08 12:46 AM
Quote:
Still waiting on my CRT tranmission, John's having back problems, so his time to build transmissions is limited. Having been there myself, he can take all the time he wants.
One thing I might point out...I'm breaking the golden rule of "one mod at a time". When I hit the track again, it will be with a Detroit Locker (replacing my toasted peg leg Auburn LSD), Monoleafs and Caltracs...A 3800-4000 stall converter (was 2800), and a new tune on my PCM.
That and no AC/Heater....The list goes on.
Well, so much for the trans vs. trans test...
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 04/27/08 01:35 PM
I know, I figured since it was apart, why not do everything else.
Even got my headers re-coated, that alone HAS got to be good for a tenth.
Even got my headers re-coated, that alone HAS got to be good for a tenth.
Posted By: TheDodgeBoys
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 02:48 PM
I dont know about overall E.T, but the A518 will give you a better 60 foot time due to the lower gear ratio in the planetary gear set! I think the A518 has a 2.74 low gear where the 727 is either a 2.45 or 2.54...cant remember!
Posted By: justinp61
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 03:22 PM
Why not just run a well built 904? I run a 727 in my Dart because it's what I had. If I were doing it again it would be a 904.
Posted By: dizuster
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 05:01 PM
Wow this thread came back from the dead.
518's do not have 2.77 1st gear ratios. They have 2.45 just like a 727.
518's do not have 2.77 1st gear ratios. They have 2.45 just like a 727.
Posted By: POS Dakota
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 06:28 PM
Quote:
I can't tell you any ET gain or loss, but I just wanted to say that Griner makes a fully manual valvebody for the 500/518s. You actually make the 3rd to OD shift with the shifter.
This is exactly what I want.
It eludes me as to how you would be able to shift into overdrive with a shifter though. Overdrive is activated with a solenoid. Is it a button on the shifter?
As far as I know, the only way to do this and still have overdrive and lockup is with vac/pressure switches.
Details???
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 06:37 PM
Quote:Quote:
I can't tell you any ET gain or loss, but I just wanted to say that Griner makes a fully manual valvebody for the 500/518s. You actually make the 3rd to OD shift with the shifter.
This is exactly what I want.
It eludes me as to how you would be able to shift into overdrive with a shifter though. Overdrive is activated with a solenoid. Is it a button on the shifter?
As far as I know, the only way to do this and still have overdrive and lockup is with vac/pressure switches.
Details???
Maybe it's a custom made valve body and not a modified stock one ?
And where are the apples to oranges result of the swap ???
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 06:45 PM
Quote:
I dont know about overall E.T, but the A518 will give you a better 60 foot time due to the lower gear ratio in the planetary gear set! I think the A518 has a 2.74 low gear where the 727 is either a 2.45 or 2.54...cant remember!
Old thread....
With the 727 and 4K converter I picked up 5 tenths on my 60 foot times...I easily picked up 8 tenths on my 1/4 mile times, but I was falling flat on my nose. Now with a better cam designed for my heads, a 4bbl M1 and 58mm TB, it's running high 12's, was runnning low 14's to 13.8.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 06:49 PM
Quote:Quote:
I dont know about overall E.T, but the A518 will give you a better 60 foot time due to the lower gear ratio in the planetary gear set! I think the A518 has a 2.74 low gear where the 727 is either a 2.45 or 2.54...cant remember!
Old thread....
With the 727 and 4K converter I picked up 5 tenths on my 60 foot times...I easily picked up 8 tenths on my 1/4 mile times, but I was falling flat on my nose. Now with a better cam designed for my heads, a 4bbl M1 and 58mm TB, it's running high 12's, was running low 14's to 13.8.
Was that 5 tenths along with other changes? How much do you think the Caltracs played into that pick up on your 60 ft?
I can see where there is a lot of rotating mass removed , the power goes straight thru the OD section but it does spin all that weight and the slight drag of the OD clutches .
Posted By: Jeepmon
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 06:59 PM
Quote:
Old thread....
With the 727 and 4K converter I picked up 5 tenths on my 60 foot times...I easily picked up 8 tenths on my 1/4 mile times, but I was falling flat on my nose. Now with a better cam designed for my heads, a 4bbl M1 and 58mm TB, it's running high 12's, was runnning low 14's to 13.8.
That was well worth the wait.. Thanks for sharing the results..
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 07:22 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
I dont know about overall E.T, but the A518 will give you a better 60 foot time due to the lower gear ratio in the planetary gear set! I think the A518 has a 2.74 low gear where the 727 is either a 2.45 or 2.54...cant remember!
Old thread....
With the 727 and 4K converter I picked up 5 tenths on my 60 foot times...I easily picked up 8 tenths on my 1/4 mile times, but I was falling flat on my nose. Now with a better cam designed for my heads, a 4bbl M1 and 58mm TB, it's running high 12's, was running low 14's to 13.8.
Was that 5 tenths along with other changes? How much do you think the Caltracs played into that pick up on your 60 ft?
I can see where there is a lot of rotating mass removed , the power goes straight thru the OD section but it does spin all that weight and the slight drag of the OD clutches .
I'd say the 5 tenths was due to the 4k converter and 727. I wish I would have run it a few times with out the Monos and Caltracs. But I never spun with the built 46RE and 2800 converter, so I can't say I picked up any in the traction department.
But....trying to make ths clear, I bet the 727 & 4K stall would have taxed the non monoleaf/caltrac set up I ran with the 46RE.
Posted By: patrick
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 08:33 PM
gee, you changed the suspension (which should hook much better) and a converter with 1200 RPM more stall? well, that's an apples to kumquats comparison. to be fair, you really should have run the 727 with the same or comparable converter on the old suspension.
I'm guessing the majority of the 60' time improvement it due to the converter and suspension, not the tranny itself.
put cal-tracks and a 4k stall converter on the 46RE, I bet it would have sped up about the same.
I'm guessing the majority of the 60' time improvement it due to the converter and suspension, not the tranny itself.
put cal-tracks and a 4k stall converter on the 46RE, I bet it would have sped up about the same.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 09:30 PM
not that this matters, but I shipped a dry 727, and inside a tupperware box, it weighed about 140 lbs. I was right up on the limit of the Fed-Ex limit for ground shipments of 150lbs.
no converter.
no converter.
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 10:28 PM
Quote:
gee, you changed the suspension (which should hook much better) and a converter with 1200 RPM more stall? well, that's an apples to kumquats comparison. to be fair, you really should have run the 727 with the same or comparable converter on the old suspension.
I'm guessing the majority of the 60' time improvement it due to the converter and suspension, not the tranny itself.
put cal-tracks and a 4k stall converter on the 46RE, I bet it would have sped up about the same.
It was built 46RE, not a stock 46RE by any means, and had a non lock up valve body in it...It was like a 3 speed with the OD off. SO it was as good as a 46RE can get.
My old suspension was relocated QA1 shocks, it never spun out of the hole, hooked like crazy. I changed it because I, well, I wanted too.
I agree on the stall helping out...but my old cam and manifold were not working with the higher stall.
A big differance is the PCM controlled the 1-2 shift on the 46RE, I made the 2-3. My 727 is full manual, so it's not bouncing off the rev limiter on the 1-2.
Hard to compare apples to apples on a 46RE to 727 swap if the 46RE is computer controlled, and the 727 driver controlled...But there's no way in you know what I'm going back to a 46RE.
Posted By: POS Dakota
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 10:30 PM
Well, having dropped a 46re on my chest, I can confidently say it's almost double that with the verter in it. 
I would not doubt a significant gain using the 727 over the 518. The overdrive adds a good deal of rotating weight. I think a half second gain with the 727 is definitely possible.
I believe the power loss through a 518 was figured to be something like 23 percent if memory serves correct.
I would not doubt a significant gain using the 727 over the 518. The overdrive adds a good deal of rotating weight. I think a half second gain with the 727 is definitely possible.
I believe the power loss through a 518 was figured to be something like 23 percent if memory serves correct.
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/05/10 10:35 PM
Here's my old shock set up with stock leafs...Really, all I can tell is the Monoleafs and Caltracs did was give me Monoleafs and Caltracs....I'm not making enough power to really put them to work.
Posted By: JD Dart
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/06/10 01:15 AM
Cheater losing all that weight now you won't be a true R/T as someone said up here. 
Posted By: Adobedude
Re: Racing with A518 -46RH transmission - 01/06/10 01:18 AM
Quote:
Cheater losing all that weight now you won't be a true R/T as someone said up here.
Ha ha...Only 800 lbs to go, and I'll be 3000 lb truck. But I look good.
EDIT: Traitor. Smart, but still a traitor.