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What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks

Posted By: gdonovan

What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 06:17 PM

Car- 1974 Duster

Engine- Fresh '94 5.9 magnum with Enginequest heads from Hughes with 1.92/1.62 valves, Crane Compucam 2020 roller cam with 1.7 roller rockers (460/480 lift) windage tray, Performer RPM intake with 625 cfm AFB. 318 exhaust manifolds with original head pipes that open to a 2.5" system with H pipe.

Trans- 904 reworked with extra clutches and valve body, stock 318 converter.

Rear- 8.25 with 3.55's and a locker, 26" x 10" M&H Racemaster slicks, Mancin Racing XHD springs.

I'm predicting well into the 13's with the 318 exhaust manifolds being the weak point in the package, 340 manifolds with 2.5" headpipes this winter.

I ran 13.80's with a 318 (stock 318 heads and 455 lift cam) and a stick a long time ago, with the bigger engine and better heads 13's should be a no brainer but the 318 had headers..

If I get a good hard launch I'm thinking it will dip into the 12's, what say you?
Posted By: joedust451

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 08:41 PM

Quote:

Car- 1974 Duster

Engine- Fresh '94 5.9 magnum with Enginequest heads from Hughes with 1.92/1.62 valves, Crane Compucam 2020 roller cam with 1.7 roller rockers (460/480 lift) windage tray, Performer RPM intake with 625 cfm AFB. 318 exhaust manifolds with original head pipes that open to a 2.5" system with H pipe.

Trans- 904 reworked with extra clutches and valve body, stock 318 converter.

Rear- 8.25 with 3.55's and a locker, 26" x 10" M&H Racemaster slicks, Mancin Racing XHD springs.

I'm predicting well into the 13's with the 318 exhaust manifolds being the weak point in the package, 340 manifolds with 2.5" headpipes this winter.

I ran 13.80's with a 318 (stock 318 heads and 455 lift cam) and a stick a long time ago, with the bigger engine and better heads 13's should be a no brainer but the 318 had headers..

If I get a good hard launch I'm thinking it will dip into the 12's, what say you?



I run 12.5/12.6s with mine, i run headers & 3.73s with 27" MT Radials, adversage 60ft. is 1.81, best of a 1.79 so far. Its hard to say with those corked up manifolds, they will be the limiting factory, you really need headers, so i'll say right around 13.0s @ 100, could see 12.9s, most likely low 13s., also depends how much the car weighs with you in it.

BTW, your engine is fresh, so did you use FTs or factory style dished, i'm running on a junkyard short block & RHS heads.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 09:12 PM

Quote:



I run 12.5/12.6s with mine, i run headers & 3.73s with 27" MT Radials, adversage 60ft. is 1.81, best of a 1.79 so far.




Impressive!

I have a set of 24.5 x 8.5 slicks I'm mounting up as well to give me a bit more gear ratio if required. They were good enough for my 10 second Reliant I don't think my Duster will overtax them!

I'm going to try both sets of slicks at the track along with some carb swapping and other fiddling.

Are you running a 904 or 727? I stuck with the 904 to give me a slight reduction in ET.

Quote:



Its hard to say with those corked up manifolds.





I thought so too but have been eyeballing this article-

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techa...aust/index.html

The dyno results state a 8 hp & 20 ft/lbs difference between 318 manifolds and cheap headers with a 300hp crate engine.

Headers would be nice but doesn't fit into my vision of stock looking under the hood.

Quote:



BTW, your engine is fresh, so did you use FTs or factory style dished, i'm running on a junkyard short block & RHS heads.



Factory slugs.

Attached picture 6201686-DSCN4200aa.jpg
Posted By: goldmember

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 09:27 PM

The stock converter is your real handicap.IMO We ran a stock from the boneyard 360 magnum with The china RPM knockoff,650dp,3.73 gears,9.5" converter,727 trans,shorty headers single exhaust. Went 13.50's.I also ran this truck in various configurations including a well built 500 OD trans,factory EFI,etc. Little bigger cam and a set of bowl blended R/T heads runs 12.50's @107mph. I'd think you'll see 13.30's as it sit's. A decent converter and 12.90's should be no problem.

Attached picture 6201710-IMG_0696.JPG
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 09:32 PM

Quote:

The stock converter is your real handicap.



Could be, could be. The Duster is a little lighter than a Dak with less frontal area and the Enginequest heads flow a lot better then stock.

While not a race converter it is a 904 converter for a 318 application and I can blaze the tires for a block if I load the 5.9 against it for a millisecond.

I'll have to hook up a tach and see what it flashes too.

This winter the car is slated to get an overdrive trans, either a 44RH or a A-518 (904 or 727 with overdrive) and was going to purchase a good converter then.

Don't have to worry about slippage much on the highway with lockup and overdrive
Posted By: goldmember

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 09:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The stock converter is your real handicap.



Could be, could be. The Duster is a little lighter than a Dak with less frontal area and the Enginequest heads flow a lot better then stock.

While not a race converter it is a 904 converter for a 318 application and I can blaze the tires for a block if I load the 5.9 against it for a millisecond.

I'll have to hook up a tach and see what it flashes too.

This winter the car is slated to get an overdrive trans, either a 44RH or a A-518 (904 or 727 with overdrive) and was going to purchase a good converter then.

Don't have to worry about slippage much on the highway with lockup and overdrive

Been there done that and went back to a 904.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 09:46 PM

Quote:

Been there done that and went back to a 904.



While I'd love to keep it simple, we do like taking the car on long trips and tooling down the turnpike at 3600 rpm gets really, really, old.

With the OD, it will drop the cruise rpm down to 2000 rpm or less and I'll be able to duke it out on the highway with others without running out of steam ;-)
Posted By: goldmember

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 09:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Been there done that and went back to a 904.



While I'd love to keep it simple, we do like taking the car on long trips and tooling down the turnpike at 3600 rpm gets really, really, old.

With the OD, it will drop the cruise rpm down to 2000 rpm or less and I'll be able to duke it out on the highway with others without running out of steam ;-)

I can relate to that as well,when I moved to FL from TN that Dakota was my daily driver and tow vehicle. I towed my Spirit R/T with it.I had 2.76ish rear gears and OD. It cruised 70 plus mph just off idle.
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 10:11 PM

I think the ex manifolds are a bigger restriction to power than the stock converter, my 68 318 2bbl would stall the factory converter to 2100 RPM, I bet the 360 mag can make it stall a little higher. Those manifolds have some really tiny passages to force all that exhaust out of.
Posted By: patrick

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 10:16 PM

I'd think about a lockup 904 out of a TBI truck (so you can defeat OD with a flip of a switch) a loose converter (something that stalls ~2800RPM, flashes to 3200) and 2.76's...might be less work than the tunnel mods for an A500...

or switch to a stick and use an iron case A833OD...

the HP loss with the 318 manifolds will be larger than the article, due to the PUNY nature of the 300HP motor's cam.

personally, I'd ditch that crane cam for a comp XE265HR, and add headers...

and the engine doesn't look stock with magnum VC's...I'm using LA VC's with good LA VC gaskets...
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 10:16 PM

A note about that article also... you have a little bigger cam and a way better intake so the differance in HP from 318 manifolds to headers will be even larger because even more fumes will be trying to get through there.

Your duster is not much lighter than the little dakota either, those dakotas weigh about 3400 typically and that duster is gonna be around 3300, this is of course assumeing both are stockish weight. The dusters gained a lot of pork starting in 72 and got heavier every year till at least 74.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 10:18 PM

Quote:

I think the ex manifolds are a bigger restriction to power than the stock converter, my 68 318 2bbl would stall the factory converter to 2100 RPM, I bet the 360 mag can make it stall a little higher. Those manifolds have some really tiny passages to force all that exhaust out of.



I agree, but...

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techa...aust/index.html

My gut instinct is the manifolds are the weak link but my combo is very close to the crate engine dyno'd in this article.

One way or another I'll find out on the 25th at The Valley.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 10:25 PM

Quote:



or switch to a stick and use an iron case A833OD...




Car is staying an automatic, a manual isn't an option.

Quote:



the HP loss with the 318 manifolds will be larger than the article, due to the PUNY nature of the 300HP motor's cam.





The cam I have is no great shakes either-

http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=...lvl=2&prt=5

I'm running 1.7 rockers which give me more lift and duration, you would be hard pressed to tell it isn't a stock cam while listening to it idle though.

Quote:


personally, I'd ditch that crane cam for a comp XE265HR, and add headers...



Headers and cam changes are not options, the engine package is locked in for what it is. I have another project in the works and I'm starting to shift focus to it.

Quote:



and the engine doesn't look stock with magnum VC's...I'm using LA VC's with good LA VC gaskets...



On the list of things to do, just not there yet. So far at car shows only one person noted it was a magnum motor!
Posted By: goldmember

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 10:28 PM

Quote:

I think the ex manifolds are a bigger restriction to power than the stock converter, my 68 318 2bbl would stall the factory converter to 2100 RPM, I bet the 360 mag can make it stall a little higher. Those manifolds have some really tiny passages to force all that exhaust out of.

It's true,the manifolds will hurt HP more than a torque converter. The converter will hurt more in the ET slip. I ran the loose 3.9 converter behind a 360 magnum,it didn't become something it's not,still a low stall junker. Swapped converters and picked up .3. It's not hard to do,you just have to make lot's of laps down the track in different configurations to see.The Dakota weights 3500 with the new owner.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 10:33 PM

So a safe guess is between 13.4 and 12.8?

Can't wait till next weekend to do some tweaking.
Posted By: Paul_Fancsali

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 10:37 PM

Not sure but with that carb and manifold and exhaust 14.0-14.3 around 98-99 mph Need better exhaust and the AFB got to go With a little tuning you could well see 12s
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/17/10 11:03 PM

Quote:

Not sure but with that carb and manifold and exhaust 14.0-14.3 around 98-99 mph Need better exhaust and the AFB got to go With a little tuning you could well see 12s



I ran 12.9's on street tires with the same AFB at 112 mph with my 340.
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/18/10 03:28 AM

I see your point and I agree there are better converters out there (me and you both know there is more to it than just stall speed)but they cost a lot more than a 1/2 decent pair of headers.
Posted By: patrick

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/18/10 04:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:



or switch to a stick and use an iron case A833OD...




Car is staying an automatic, a manual isn't an option.

Quote:



the HP loss with the 318 manifolds will be larger than the article, due to the PUNY nature of the 300HP motor's cam.





The cam I have is no great shakes either-

http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=...lvl=2&prt=5

I'm running 1.7 rockers which give me more lift and duration, you would be hard pressed to tell it isn't a stock cam while listening to it idle though.

Quote:


personally, I'd ditch that crane cam for a comp XE265HR, and add headers...



Headers and cam changes are not options, the engine package is locked in for what it is. I have another project in the works and I'm starting to shift focus to it.

Quote:



and the engine doesn't look stock with magnum VC's...I'm using LA VC's with good LA VC gaskets...



On the list of things to do, just not there yet. So far at car shows only one person noted it was a magnum motor!



that cam seems like a pointless waste of time...IIRC the stock 360 cam is about 10-15 degrees smaller "advertised", and about 4 degrees smaller at .050.

I'd pull the cam and get it reground. I really like my reground roller in my magnum headed 318. www.bulletcams.com did it, I had them use their HR259/316 lobe for both intake and exhaust...it's 12 degrees smaller than yours advertised duration (.006" lift) but 14 degrees bigger, and .072" more lift...
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/18/10 11:51 AM

Quote:



that cam seems like a pointless waste of time...IIRC the stock 360 cam is about 10-15 degrees smaller "advertised", and about 4 degrees smaller at .050.





This cam has considerably more lift than stock, more so since this motor has 1.7 not 1.6 stock rockers.

Stock 5.9 camshaft is - 410/410 lift
Out of the box crane - 434/458
With HS 1.7 Rockers - 460/482

Which is neither here nor there since the subject at hand is "what will it run" not "what cam would I run if it was my car"

The package is what it is and what I had to work with.

The cars primary purpose is to go to cruises and not scare the ol' lady from driving it, you have to ease them into these things ;-)
Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/18/10 03:20 PM

The 5.9 cam specs you have listed are wrong, that is the old 2bbl cam, all the magnum motors have more lift than that, varries just a hair depending on the year.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/18/10 03:51 PM

Quote:

The 5.9 cam specs you have listed are wrong, that is the old 2bbl cam, all the magnum motors have more lift than that, varries just a hair depending on the year.



The numbers are right from the Magnum modification manual and I have confirmed it with a micrometer.

Easy enough to do, the difference between base circle and peak lobe x rocker ratio.

I have confirmed this on 2 5.9 (.410 lift) and 2 5.2 (.430-.432) camshafts.
Posted By: MoparJoe

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/18/10 11:38 PM

Quote:

The 5.9 cam specs you have listed are wrong, that is the old 2bbl cam, all the magnum motors have more lift than that, varries just a hair depending on the year.



Going off the lobe I got .260" in a '99 and '01 360 - comes out to .417" using the advertised rocker ratio of 1.6, they will spec out higher at the valve though since some stamped rockers are closer to 1.7, my '99 318 had nearly .280" at the lobe and was a pretty good running truck.
Posted By: joedust451

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/19/10 12:18 AM

The factory 360 magnum cam (at least in the 94-95 models were right around 410 lift, the dur. is horrible even at 50*, i had mine re-ground through bullet cams, Tim was limited to what could be done because of its "lack' of any real lobe, We settled on this useing factory rockers (.477-.477, .218-.218 @50, went from a 114 too a 112), this cam even though it has "great" torque lacks in anything above 5200, its about finished, but it runs very very well.

I'm running a stock 904 with a RMVB & an 11" 2800 PTC.

I know you said the headers are not an option right now, put them on your list soon, i'm running the cheapo summit 105.95 headers, i will say thay are NOT cheap by any means, the construction is very good along with the fitment, much better then some headman/hookers i've had.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/19/10 12:53 AM

Quote:


I know you said the headers are not an option right now, put them on your list soon, i'm running the cheapo summit 105.95 headers, i will say thay are NOT cheap by any means, the construction is very good along with the fitment, much better then some headman/hookers i've had.



Its not a question of money but of looks (I actually have a new set of Dougs ceramic coated sitting on the shelf)

I want the car to look stock under the hood, so manifolds are a must. The car was suppose to come out with 340/360 manifolds but I was in a hurry to get some racing in before the end of the season and didn't want to tie up the car any longer.

The valve covers and small exhaust manifolds will be changed over this winter.

Frankly if the car dips into the 12's it will have exceeded what I wanted to do.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/25/10 10:26 PM

Quote:

Not sure but with that carb and manifold and exhaust 14.0-14.3 around 98-99 mph Need better exhaust and the AFB got to go With a little tuning you could well see 12s



You were closest- Car ran a best of 14.2 at 94 mph.

Car barks the 10 x 26 slicks hard on launch, I had to lower the tire pressure to 9 psi to get some hook!

My power wheel states 249 whp based on ET, 235 based on mph (car with me in it is 3610 on the scales.)

Not shabby, my buddy (former owner of KRC Performance) states a stock Dakota R/T 2WD will rap out 195 to the wheels, so I'm 50 hp over a stock 5.9 motor.

The cam makes to much low end power and the exhaust manifolds are just killing any top end, as I expected.

Tried jacking the timing about, it liked what I had it set at from the gitgo, 36 degrees total. Tried 34 and 38 and the mph fell off both times.

Car really didn't care if it had the stock air cleaner or an open unit. If I had more time I'd run the 750 but there was no more passes to be made before heading for home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMRI_DhiCqw

Attached picture 6216623-DSCN4446.JPG
Posted By: joedust451

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/25/10 11:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Not sure but with that carb and manifold and exhaust 14.0-14.3 around 98-99 mph Need better exhaust and the AFB got to go With a little tuning you could well see 12s



You were closest- Car ran a best of 14.2 at 94 mph.

Car barks the 10 x 26 slicks hard on launch, I had to lower the tire pressure to 9 psi to get some hook!

My power wheel states 249 whp based on ET, 235 based on mph (car with me in it is 3610 on the scales.)

Not shabby, my buddy states a stock Dakota R/T 2WD will rap out 195 to the wheels, so I'm 50 hp over a stock 5.9 motor.

The cam makes to much low end power and the exhaust manifolds are just killing any top end, as I expected.

Tried jacking the timing about, it liked what I had it set at from the gitgo, 36 degrees total. Tried 34 and 38 and the mph fell off both times.

Car really didn't care if it had the stock air cleaner or an open unit. If I had more time I'd run the 750 but there was no more passes to be made before heading for home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMRI_DhiCqw



That car needs a serious diet, my 75 BB duster weighed less then 3000 lbs., it had all steel & glass, also had iron heads, those bumbers/brases are a solid 165 lbs. that can be taken off.

Don't know what your Alt. is there but that 360 magnum is sleeping IMO & can do "much" better. Mine likes 30-32* total.

I'm curious, what were you shifting at? Mine is somehow limited to 5100, i can't amagin anything being the limiting factor other then the cam in mine, its already in the mid. 12s.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/26/10 12:03 AM

Quote:



That car needs a serious diet, my 75 BB duster weighed less then 3000 lbs., it had all steel & glass, also had iron heads, those bumbers/brases are a solid 165 lbs. that can be taken off.




Not going to happen, this is a full street car with my 221 pound butt behind the wheel.

Quote:


Don't know what your Alt. is there but that 360 magnum is sleeping IMO & can do "much" better.





608 foot above sea level.

Yes, as noted the cam and 318 manifolds are killing the combo. Still, 50 hp over stock isn't nothing to shake a stick at either.

Shifts were at 4500, I let it shift by itself and focused on the tuning aspects. Stock HP peak is 4000 rpm.

Maybe next month I'll have the larger exhaust manifolds installed and take another crack at it with the cooler weather.
Posted By: joedust451

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/26/10 01:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:



That car needs a serious diet, my 75 BB duster weighed less then 3000 lbs., it had all steel & glass, also had iron heads, those bumbers/brases are a solid 165 lbs. that can be taken off.




Not going to happen, this is a full street car with my 221 pound butt behind the wheel.

Quote:


Don't know what your Alt. is there but that 360 magnum is sleeping IMO & can do "much" better.





608 foot above sea level.

Yes, as noted the cam and 318 manifolds are killing the combo. Still, 50 hp over stock isn't nothing to shake a stick at either.

Shifts were at 4500, I let it shift by itself and focused on the tuning aspects. Stock HP peak is 4000 rpm.

Maybe next month I'll have the larger exhaust manifolds installed and take another crack at it with the cooler weather.



What were the 60fts., that MPH is worth mid. 13s.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/26/10 01:06 AM

Quote:


What were the 60fts., that MPH is worth mid. 13s.



1.96, 1.96, 1.99 and 2.0

MPH in the 8th was 74.5-75.6 mph depending on where the timing was at.
Posted By: MoparJoe

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/26/10 03:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:



That car needs a serious diet, my 75 BB duster weighed less then 3000 lbs., it had all steel & glass, also had iron heads, those bumbers/brases are a solid 165 lbs. that can be taken off.




Not going to happen, this is a full street car with my 221 pound butt behind the wheel.

Quote:


Don't know what your Alt. is there but that 360 magnum is sleeping IMO & can do "much" better.





608 foot above sea level.

Yes, as noted the cam and 318 manifolds are killing the combo. Still, 50 hp over stock isn't nothing to shake a stick at either.

Shifts were at 4500, I let it shift by itself and focused on the tuning aspects. Stock HP peak is 4000 rpm.

Maybe next month I'll have the larger exhaust manifolds installed and take another crack at it with the cooler weather.



Try shifting at 5000-5200, that's where my trucks ran best with stock cams- it was worth 2/10 and 2 mph on a stock truck, I had a custom 206* in one that liked 5800-5900.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/26/10 01:09 PM

Quote:



Try shifting at 5000-5200, that's where my trucks ran best with stock cams- it was worth 2/10 and 2 mph on a stock truck, I had a custom 206* in one that liked 5800-5900.



I have been giving some thought- I might slap the bigger manifolds on and just run some short dumps. This would allow me to seperate the two issues (cam and manifolds) and figure out which is the worst offender.

I doubt the rest of the exhaust system is the issue (2.5" mandrel bent with an H-pipe) so if the car suddenly picks up a bunch of power I know which direction to go.

This would be quick and easy to do which is good as I'm suppose to be winterizing the house soon not tinkering further with cars!

Looking at the vids in slow-mo shows the car hitting the slicks but not spinning after the first run or two, it simply isn't making enough power to shorttime better.
Posted By: gch

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/26/10 03:42 PM

Even an off the shelf converter will pick up .2-.3 with slicks.Efficient or not.Most folks will trade mph for e.t.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: What will it run? A-body with 5.9 magnum & slicks - 09/26/10 04:16 PM

Quote:

Even an off the shelf converter will pick up .2-.3 with slicks.Efficient or not.Most folks will trade mph for e.t.



I'm installing an overdrive trans this winter, spending cash on a 904 converter I'm going to use for maybe one event isn't cost effective.
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