Moparts

Getting a 727 to live

Posted By: The Shadow

Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 02:18 PM

Has anybody got a high hp/tq combo in a heavy car that has any tricks to keeping 3rd gear clutches in a 727?
I've tried a standard clutch set up in an a&a billet drum
Upgraded to the tcs large piston drum with 6 clutches.
Changed valve bodies from j/w to a&a.
Nothing yet has been able to hold the 3rd gear.
I'm thinking the only thing left is to up the line pressures. If that doesn't work it may mean the 727 is at the end of the line.
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 03:55 PM

that's one thing i've never had a problem with. how much power? i've used the "blue plate" clutches in a billet drum. tell us more about your combo.
Posted By: Dodgem

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 04:05 PM

It's almost like you are not getting the seals in properly or the sealing rings on the input shaft and pump are not holding. Are you air testing on the bench and then assembled???
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 04:14 PM

Quote:

It's almost like you are not getting the seals in properly or the sealing rings on the input shaft and pump are not holding. Are you air testing on the bench and then assembled???

i was thinking the same thing.
Posted By: The Shadow

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 04:16 PM

It's a procharged hemi making 1200hp/1000tq in a 4000lb roadrunner
I had raybestos blue clutches in the first drum with the waffle style sipes.
The tcs drum has 6 alto red clutches.
We did air checks for clutch engagements.
Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 04:17 PM

CRT - John Cope would be able to diagnose the issues with you.
Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 04:17 PM

We have many 8,9 and 10 second Mopars with 727s and some with as many as 10 race seasons with very few issues.My 65 has almost 1000 runs on the 727 with no failures.A&A billit drum,5 clutch,trans brake,billit servos and stock overrunning clutch.
Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 04:21 PM

EDIT: You posted your power/weight while I was typing.

I don't know what power/torque and weight you have, but at over 3200 pounds and 1.2x sixty foot times, I think my combo is getting high (but not awesome...).

5 clutch front drum with Alto Red Eagle clutches
5 plain steels
0.075" clearance
Griner valve body at 165 psi

3.8 lever, dual spring servo (old style), ie trying to avoid 2-3 overlap which can hurt the clutches.

I have hundreds of passes on this clutch pack. I would have to add up several logbooks and see exactly when I put these Red Eagle's in, but it could be 600 passes. The last time I had it out for inspection was 240 passes ago and the frictions and steels were excellant.
Posted By: dOoC

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 05:07 PM

Quote:

It's a procharged hemi making 1200hp/1000tq in a 4000lb roadrunner
I had raybestos blue clutches in the first drum with the waffle style sipes.
The tcs drum has 6 alto red clutches.
We did air checks for clutch engagements.




..... and HOW MUCH line-pressure are you running ?
Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 05:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It's a procharged hemi making 1200hp/1000tq in a 4000lb roadrunner
I had raybestos blue clutches in the first drum with the waffle style sipes.
The tcs drum has 6 alto red clutches.
We did air checks for clutch engagements.




..... and HOW MUCH line-pressure are you running ?



EXACTLY.......It'll need at least 150 to 165LBS of line pressure.....
Posted By: 727specialist

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 05:52 PM

I have 727s running in the sevens, eights and nines.
High gear clutches are the easiest to make live when set up properly.
Posted By: Leon441

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 09:41 PM

Check the sealing area of the drum (you may have a steel sleeve already Rick sells them this way). If not the seals that go on the back of the pump can hurt the drum. I use the teflon ones. Can't remember but either the cast or stainless ones don't get along with alluminum.

I can't speak for JW but I have seen this before with an A&A VB. I used to wipe these clutches out about once a year with a TA VB. Like him or hate him Joe Chrisman puts extreme power through a 727. Never hurt a clutch using his Tranzact VB even the Drum looked like junk in the sealing ring area. Many people speak well of the Griner too I just never personally ran one.

Leon
Posted By: sdaurity

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 09:57 PM

Quote:

Check the sealing area of the drum (you may have a steel sleeve already Rick sells them this way). If not the seals that go on the back of the pump can hurt the drum. I use the teflon ones. Can't remember but either the cast or stainless ones don't get along with alluminum.

I can't speak for JW but I have seen this before with an A&A VB. I used to wipe these clutches out about once a year with a TA VB. Like him or hate him Joe Chrisman puts extreme power through a 727. Never hurt a clutch using his Tranzact VB even the Drum looked like junk in the sealing ring area. Many people speak well of the Griner too I just never personally ran one.

Leon



x2 on Joes valvebody, and deff. check your line pressure.
Posted By: FastmOp

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 10:16 PM

If your useing a transbreak and a 5.0 lever you will hurt parts about like your talking.
Posted By: 572_dup2

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/03/10 10:35 PM

I had that same problem.... the cure John Cope C.R.T.
Posted By: The Shadow

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 02:33 AM

I don't think it can be seal issues as it's all new stuff. It has done it on 2 different drums and valve bodies. The tcs drum has a 55% bigger piston and that still doesn't seem to help.
I don't know what the line pressures we have yet but once it's back together again it will be checked.
Gonna start from scratch with a new virgin case.
Posted By: dOoC

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 02:37 AM

Quote:

I don't think it can be seal issues as it's all new stuff. It has done it on 2 different drums and valve bodies. The tcs drum has a 55% bigger piston and that still doesn't seem to help.
I don't know what the line pressures we have yet but once it's back together again it will be checked.
Gonna start from scratch with a new virgin case.



55% bigger piston ? ..??
Posted By: The Shadow

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 02:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I don't think it can be seal issues as it's all new stuff. It has done it on 2 different drums and valve bodies. The tcs drum has a 55% bigger piston and that still doesn't seem to help.
I don't know what the line pressures we have yet but once it's back together again it will be checked.
Gonna start from scratch with a new virgin case.



55% bigger piston ? ..??


http://www.tcsproducts.com/details.html?id=5
Posted By: dOoC

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 02:45 AM

Will hold up to 6 friction plates versus 4 in the O.E.M. unit.
55%, YES that's 55% MORE Piston Apply Surface Area! This results in double the clamping force needed in third gear - Just what you need for high performance and EXTREME applications.

This is 55% more CLUTCH SURFACE ... not piston size.

You need to clear-up and make-sure of that line pressure !!
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 03:14 AM

You had an earlie issue.. Is it the same issue or different?
Posted By: The Shadow

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 01:01 PM

Doc
I stand corrected
Rob, It's the same issue
Posted By: Leon441

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 01:49 PM

Don't rush into a new case. I tried three when a VB manufacturer insisted it couldn't be his VB.

That was just more stuff to get rid of when I got pissed and switched to something else, glide. I don't necessarily recommend that. Glides are great in some applications but are costly for a high HP peice. Three gears is better than one if you can get the ratios you want.

Leon
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 02:23 PM

Quote:

Will hold up to 6 friction plates versus 4 in the O.E.M. unit.
55%, YES that's 55% MORE Piston Apply Surface Area! This results in double the clamping force needed in third gear - Just what you need for high performance and EXTREME applications.

This is 55% more CLUTCH SURFACE ... not piston size.

You need to clear-up and make-sure of that line pressure !!



Sorry Doctor donkey, TCS has a drum that uses a LARGER PISTON , the outer seal ring is a square cut ring from a GM application , can't remember but TCS sent me one of them to test for them when they were getting it ready to market to see how well it worked.

Quote:

Doc
I stand corrected





No , you don't stand corrected .
Posted By: FastmOp

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 04:07 PM

Lmao at the slowest guy in the post has to call people names. Johnrr how much power you making and how many laps you have on the combo?

I'm betting not much of either.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 05:06 PM

Quote:

Lmao at the slowest guy in the post has to call people names. Johnrr how much power you making and how many laps you have on the combo?

I'm betting not much of either.



420HP at the rear wheels with roughly 1200ft/lbs of torque, Cummins Diesel at 6700lbs and enough laps to accomplish what I wanted.

If the good doctor understood the link he was reading he would not have claimed the person that linked it and those that have used it were wrong. I'm only uses one of my pet names for my good friend the Proctologist of fiberglass ... we go way back

As far as me being the slowest, so what? there is ALWAYS someone faster, I'm sure you've met your fair share of them ...
Posted By: dOoC

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 06:18 PM

Good ole RR ... ...

Him and his childish mud-throwing and not actually READING(and using common sense) what I and TCS actually had to say ? .... same stuff - DIFF day !

Name calling ? ... I will not go-down to his level.

But READ the direct quote off-of their site ... they mention clutches, the number of clutches and then 55%. I do not know the actual size of the TCS piston ... it could be larger ... but it is uNpossible for it to be 55% larger than the OEM-stocker. The drum itself would have to muchO larger on the OD(it could not be on the ID)it then would not fit into an OEM trans case.

EVERYONE here knows RR. He has some decent info between his ears ... but many people think that this positive aspect of him is ruined by his uNprovoked childish behavior.

Let me add ...I do think it is kind-of-interesting that he mentions NOTHING about line-pressure .... when IMO this is the most important factor ...and many other people agree.

But ole RR would rather act like a little-school-girl in a sand-box ..
Posted By: The Shadow

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 07:39 PM

Okay boys no need to throw sand in the sandbox.

I don't know what the pressure is.We're not checking it until after the autopsy and heart transplant.
Leon you may be right and it is the v/b.
It would be just my luck to have 2 v/b's that are lemons.
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 08:52 PM

Quote:

But READ the direct quote off-of their site ... they mention clutches, the number of clutches and then 55%. I do not know the actual size of the TCS piston ... it could be larger ... but it is uNpossible for it to be 55% larger than the OEM-stocker. The drum itself would have to muchO larger on the OD(it could not be on the ID)it then would not fit into an OEM trans case.



The exact quote from the website is "55%, YES that's 55% MORE Piston Apply Surface Area!" so they are talking about the piston apply surface area not the clutch surface.

The piston bore of the factory 727 drum is 5.625" for a surface area of 24.3 sq. in. 155% of that would be 37.67 sq. in. which would need a piston bore diameter of 6.93" (correct my math if I screwed up) which, when subtracted from a drum diameter of 7.50" would leave a wall thickness of .285"...pretty thin for a cast drum but doable with a high-strength alloy billet drum.

The pic on the website shows the piston bore extending all the way to the floater disc notches.
Posted By: dodger mope

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 10:27 PM

I did not see the clearence for the plates,but you can overheat the front cluthes in low gear if to tight.
Posted By: RemCharger

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/04/10 10:46 PM

Quote:


3.8 lever, dual spring servo (old style), ie trying to avoid 2-3 overlap which can hurt the clutches.


Thats what i was thinking,,, overlap issues. trying to apply 2nd and 3rd at the same time ,, with lots of power,, will kill the high clutches in short order.
Then again, could be d**m-near anything...
Posted By: wedgg440

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/05/10 03:00 AM

I assume you are using the wide bushing alum.drum.This drum requires the 1971 and up reaction support with the drum oil feed hole modified by grinding the hole between the two seal ring grooves down to the bottom of the hole intersecting it.This will greatly increase the oil volume to the piston chamber area more quickly providing increased holding pressure to the discs.You can see this more clearly explained in Carl Munroe's Torqueflite Transmission Handbook.HPBOOKS-1399 p.164 and 181.
Posted By: Tobbe

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/05/10 08:48 PM

couldnīt the direct clutch "selfaply" centrifugal force effekt the small amount of oil behind the direktclutch piston ,thats why to ad a bleedhole and more springs ?
Posted By: John_Kunkel

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/05/10 08:59 PM


Factory drums have a check ball to prevent centrifugal apply, don't know about aftermarket.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/06/10 03:30 PM

Quote:

Good ole RR ... ...

Him and his childish mud-throwing and not actually READING(and using common sense) what I and TCS actually had to say ? .... same stuff - DIFF day !

Name calling ? ... I will not go-down to his level.

But READ the direct quote off-of their site ... they mention clutches, the number of clutches and then 55%. I do not know the actual size of the TCS piston ... it could be larger ... but it is uNpossible for it to be 55% larger than the OEM-stocker. The drum itself would have to muchO larger on the OD(it could not be on the ID)it then would not fit into an OEM trans case.

EVERYONE here knows RR. He has some decent info between his ears ... but many people think that this positive aspect of him is ruined by his uNprovoked childish behavior.

Let me add ...I do think it is kind-of-interesting that he mentions NOTHING about line-pressure .... when IMO this is the most important factor ...and many other people agree.

But ole RR would rather act like a little-school-girl in a sand-box ..





As far as the piston vs. clutches , ADDING 2 clutches and steels to a 4 clutch pack will not be a 55% increase , maybe 50% , but not 55%.

The piston is larger, I've held it in my hands. Just an FYI I have 6 clutches in a 4 clutch drum with .110 clearance , dry , in the clutch pack. To use the TCS drum with the higher snap ring you might have trim the rear clutch retainer a tad to clear the snap ring , I did it in about 10 minutes in a lathe .
Posted By: Glen440

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/06/10 04:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Good ole RR ... ...

Him and his childish mud-throwing and not actually READING(and using common sense) what I and TCS actually had to say ? .... same stuff - DIFF day !

Name calling ? ... I will not go-down to his level.

But READ the direct quote off-of their site ... they mention clutches, the number of clutches and then 55%. I do not know the actual size of the TCS piston ... it could be larger ... but it is uNpossible for it to be 55% larger than the OEM-stocker. The drum itself would have to muchO larger on the OD(it could not be on the ID)it then would not fit into an OEM trans case.

EVERYONE here knows RR. He has some decent info between his ears ... but many people think that this positive aspect of him is ruined by his uNprovoked childish behavior.

Let me add ...I do think it is kind-of-interesting that he mentions NOTHING about line-pressure .... when IMO this is the most important factor ...and many other people agree.

But ole RR would rather act like a little-school-girl in a sand-box ..



Look up the word HYPOCRIT there Mr. Dr. fiberglASS

As far as the piston vs. clutches , ADDING 2 clutches and steels to a 4 clutch pack will not be a 55% increase , maybe 50% , but not 55%.

The piston is larger, I've held it in my hands. Just an FYI I have 6 clutches in a 4 clutch drum with .110 clearance , dry , in the clutch pack. To use the TCS drum with the higher snap ring you might have trim the rear clutch retainer a tad to clear the snap ring , I did it in about 10 minutes in a lathe .



JohnRR is right, I had Marks drum in my hands. The apply piston is bigger and the drum uses all available surface. The groove the stock drum has for the front pump vent is not there and you trim the plastic for this drum.
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/06/10 05:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:



The piston is larger, I've held it in my hands. Just an FYI I have 6 clutches in a 4 clutch drum with .110 clearance , dry , in the clutch pack. To use the TCS drum with the higher snap ring you might have trim the rear clutch retainer a tad to clear the snap ring , I did it in about 10 minutes in a lathe .



JohnRR is right, I had Marks drum in my hands. The apply piston is bigger and the drum uses all available surface. The groove the stock drum has for the front pump vent is not there and you trim the plastic for this drum.



I forgot about that, I'm pretty sure the regular size drum from TCS is like that also, I have one here I'd have to look. They also put the check ball in the wrong place, at least on the early release billet std. piston drum I have , it's towards the middle instead of near the outer edge. of the piston recess and the grooves that the steels sit in are a little tight , the steels may need some minor grinding on the ears so they move freely up and down.
Posted By: The Shadow

Re: Getting a 727 to live - 09/14/10 12:16 AM

We got the tranny apart today and checked it all out.
All the clutches were good
So really all that can mean is the converter has had it.
Hopefully my new tcs converter will work out better than the jw.
© 2024 Moparts Forums