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coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms??

Posted By: Blown61

coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 02:30 AM

does anyone make this?
Posted By: VernMotor

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 02:47 AM

Don't think you can do it with stock uppers.. done with stock lower. all the time.
Posted By: Blown61

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 02:49 AM

How does that work with taking the torsion bar out? any pics of this?
Posted By: earthmover

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 02:50 AM

dont fred have coilovers on 1 of his cars with stock a-arms i think he posted a pic before
Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 06:42 AM

Quote:

Don't think you can do it with stock uppers.. done with stock lower. all the time.

Sure you can, plenty of room. My GTX had stock uppers.

Monte
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 06:50 AM

Stock uppers and lowers both in my dart.

Attached picture 6168498-dartpics014.jpg
Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 07:32 AM

Quote:

dont fred have coilovers on 1 of his cars with stock a-arms i think he posted a pic before



Posted By: Blown61

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 01:03 PM

What holds the back of the lower? where the torsion bar used to go into it? or does it matter?
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 01:14 PM

To eliminate the torsion bar the stock lower control arm needs some form of support on both sides for strength. I pushed the stock stuff out and went to a steel on steel bushing for a GM roundy round suspension application and made a bracket that would support both front and back of the control arm.

Attached picture 6168658-dartpics009.jpg
Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 03:32 PM

Quote:

What holds the back of the lower? where the torsion bar used to go into it? or does it matter?


mine has this simple support. the pin on my K is still used

one thing also done was a bushing was made for the inside lower arm with the bolt hole off center
by rotating the bushing it moves the arm in and out . This helped make the camber setting stay constant thru any travel. Along with the mounting points on my upper arms having been relocated my front alignment is the same on the ground as it is in the air.It thinks it's a strut


Posted By: Blown61

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 04:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What holds the back of the lower? where the torsion bar used to go into it? or does it matter?


mine has this simple support. the pin on my K is still used

one thing also done was a bushing was made for the inside lower arm with the bolt hole off center
by rotating the bushing it moves the arm in and out . This helped make the camber setting stay constant thru any travel. Along with the mounting points on my upper arms having been relocated my front alignment is the same on the ground as it is in the air.It thinks it's a strut






Did you flip the spindles around for the rack and pinion?
Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 06:34 PM

Quote:

Did you flip the spindles around for the rack and pinion?




no the lower ball joint arms are swapped side to side and are then in reversed position.

the spindels are from an earlier disc set up which I believe is the Kelsey Hayes style and do not extend out as much when the length is measured.
I need to make mention that the upper and lower A arms are from a B body
Posted By: mopowers

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 08/31/10 07:48 PM

Is supporting the rear of the LCA all that important? I have seen a few set-ups that didn't have a support other than just a bolt through to the LCA pin. Like this:

http://hemiduster.com/coilover.htm

That's how I was planning to do mine. Maybe I ought to re-think that plan.
Posted By: mopowers

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/01/10 04:20 AM

Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/01/10 04:25 AM

Quote:

Is supporting the rear of the LCA all that important? I have seen a few set-ups that didn't have a support other than just a bolt through to the LCA pin. Like this:

http://hemiduster.com/coilover.htm

That's how I was planning to do mine. Maybe I ought to re-think that plan.



I own that car and it hasn't fallen off yet
Posted By: Magnum

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/01/10 04:36 AM



I see a bolt back there. Maybe it's fastened to the lower control arm shaft to keep the arm from pushing towards the rear of the car.

There is no way the arm will fall off. The front strut will not allow that but it may pull back a bit without the tension of the torsion bar on the hex.
Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/01/10 04:42 AM

Quote:

I see a bolt back there. Maybe it's fastened to the lower control arm shaft to keep the arm from pushing towards the rear of the car.



exactly like the first picture of my other Duster
Posted By: Blown61

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/01/10 05:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Is supporting the rear of the LCA all that important? I have seen a few set-ups that didn't have a support other than just a bolt through to the LCA pin. Like this:

http://hemiduster.com/coilover.htm

That's how I was planning to do mine. Maybe I ought to re-think that plan.



I own that car and it hasn't fallen off yet



What are the welds for???
Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/01/10 07:23 AM

Youi would have to ask Dave since he did it IT'S pretty obvious it is needed for strength.Stops any flexing and keep it from spreading since there's no torsion bar pushing from behind
Posted By: mopowers

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/01/10 04:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Is supporting the rear of the LCA all that important? I have seen a few set-ups that didn't have a support other than just a bolt through to the LCA pin. Like this:

http://hemiduster.com/coilover.htm

That's how I was planning to do mine. Maybe I ought to re-think that plan.



I own that car and it hasn't fallen off yet



That's good to know.

So I guess supporting the back side other than a (retaining bolt to the pin) isn't necessary.
Posted By: Blown61

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/04/10 08:49 PM

What is drilled and tapped for the bolt and cover?
Posted By: mopowers

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/04/10 08:53 PM

The pivot pin.
Posted By: Blown61

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/06/10 04:12 PM

Quote:

The pivot pin.



So that is nothing more then a cover and the pivot pin does all the support work?
Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/06/10 04:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The pivot pin.



So that is nothing more then a cover and the pivot pin does all the support work?



it holds in my bushing also
Posted By: Blown61

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/07/10 04:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The pivot pin.



So that is nothing more then a cover and the pivot pin does all the support work?



it holds in my bushing also



Doesn't the pin go thru a bushing?
Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 09/07/10 05:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The pivot pin.



So that is nothing more then a cover and the pivot pin does all the support work?



it holds in my bushing also



Doesn't the pin go thru a bushing?



if I remember correctly the bushing slides over the pin and the bolt screws into the pin.I am not 100% sure but I sem to remember it that way. looking at it you can see that it appears that way
Posted By: John Burdine

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/12/11 09:16 AM

Quote:



I see a bolt back there. Maybe it's fastened to the lower control arm shaft to keep the arm from pushing towards the rear of the car.

There is no way the arm will fall off. The front strut will not allow that but it may pull back a bit without the tension of the torsion bar on the hex.



How do you tighten this bolt and still allow the lca to pivot freely?
Posted By: 72Challenger

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/12/11 09:27 AM

On a side note...

Fred, you think with the way you have your arms setup etc. a rack / pinion steering would fit using a stock k-member too?
Posted By: LA360

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/12/11 02:22 PM

Can a bearing be used in place of a bushing?

I imagine the washer buts up to the shaft, allowing some clearance between the washer and the control arm?

Thanks in advance
Posted By: Keith Black®

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/12/11 08:55 PM

by removing the torsion bar, and using a coil over you are putting the load through the shock tower where the car was designed to support the springs through the trans crossmember. the shock tower's aren't up to it. I've heard it bends the car i.e. people have problems closing doors ..panel alignment etc.over time.
good to hear member's experiences with c/o replacements..
Posted By: 72Challenger

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/12/11 09:26 PM

Yeah, if you do change over to coil overs in my eyes it's a must to add some kind op bracing / support for cause as you said the stock shock towers aren't designed to carry the load. Assume if using stock upper arms you have to change the upper shock / coil over mounts anyway for clearancing.
Posted By: earthmover

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/12/11 09:30 PM

gregsdart could you post a pic front and back of your lca where you did away with the t-bars?? thanks mike
Posted By: rowin4

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/12/11 11:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

What holds the back of the lower? where the torsion bar used to go into it? or does it matter?


mine has this simple support. the pin on my K is still used

one thing also done was a bushing was made for the inside lower arm with the bolt hole off center
by rotating the bushing it moves the arm in and out . This helped make the camber setting stay constant thru any travel. Along with the mounting points on my upper arms having been relocated my front alignment is the same on the ground as it is in the air.It thinks it's a strut







Fred, I noticed in the picture that there is no front strut. Was it removed in this picture for some reason or isn't one used? If not what keeps the wheel from folding under?
Posted By: Boosted

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/13/11 01:25 AM

I would love to know more about this for a street car... I am tired of working around the t bars with my headers...

Anyone make a bolt in kit?
Posted By: earthmover

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/13/11 01:35 AM

i would also like to know see more pic from diff. angles thinking of going this way with my big block duster project.. so anymore info you guys can give or show would help out thanks mike

also what kinda rack is that fred??? did you have to do any bending of the lower ball joint mounts when went to the opp. side??? i think it was in another post before but not sure
Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/13/11 06:41 AM

Quote:

by removing the torsion bar, and using a coil over you are putting the load through the shock tower where the car was designed to support the springs through the trans crossmember. the shock tower's aren't up to it. I've heard it bends the car i.e. people have problems closing doors ..panel alignment etc.over time.
good to hear member's experiences with c/o replacements..

Who says the shock towers are not up to it.
My GTX, simply had a piece of 1" tubing welded across the shock tower, inside, on the wheel side. The tabs for the shocks were on this piece of tubing. No snout bars, no other supports or gussets, nothing. The front end alignment NEVER moved, this tells you the shock towers NEVER moved. Performed this conversion on more than one car and the shock tower carries the load just fine.

Monte
Posted By: Jeepmon

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/13/11 06:59 AM

Here is another pic..

Attached picture 6414634-coilover.jpg
Posted By: Boosted

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/13/11 02:33 PM

hey Monte.... Who sells this kit or is it one of those special things a person has to put together?

Anyone use this on a street car?
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/13/11 04:11 PM

Quote:

gregsdart could you post a pic front and back of your lca where you did away with the t-bars?? thanks mike


Check first page, second picture I posted.
Posted By: megajoltman

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/13/11 04:16 PM

Here's the parts I will be using when I do mine:

aftermarket upper control arms(seems to give you way more room for the coil-overs imo)

coil over shocks and springs

a spanner wrench to adjust the shocks

a set of spring bearings to make the ride height adjustments easier

My cage will be tied into the shock towers so they will be fine.
Posted By: earthmover

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/13/11 04:45 PM

ok i see it now ..looks to me that you just layed the mount at a angle (back) to have it at the stock spec. if im seeing right. thanks mike
im gonna get out in the shop and see what i can come up with so you guys look for more ???? lol
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/13/11 06:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

by removing the torsion bar, and using a coil over you are putting the load through the shock tower where the car was designed to support the springs through the trans crossmember. the shock tower's aren't up to it. I've heard it bends the car i.e. people have problems closing doors ..panel alignment etc.over time.
good to hear member's experiences with c/o replacements..

Who says the shock towers are not up to it.
My GTX, simply had a piece of 1" tubing welded across the shock tower, inside, on the wheel side. The tabs for the shocks were on this piece of tubing. No snout bars, no other supports or gussets, nothing. The front end alignment NEVER moved, this tells you the shock towers NEVER moved. Performed this conversion on more than one car and the shock tower carries the load just fine.

Monte



Monty on a B body the shock tower is beefier than the point the shock attaches to on an A body so I can see it not being an issue .
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/13/11 06:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

What holds the back of the lower? where the torsion bar used to go into it? or does it matter?


mine has this simple support. the pin on my K is still used

one thing also done was a bushing was made for the inside lower arm with the bolt hole off center
by rotating the bushing it moves the arm in and out . This helped make the camber setting stay constant thru any travel. Along with the mounting points on my upper arms having been relocated my front alignment is the same on the ground as it is in the air.It thinks it's a strut







Fred, I noticed in the picture that there is no front strut. Was it removed in this picture for some reason or isn't one used? If not what keeps the wheel from folding under?



If you look at the first picture Fred posted you can see the strut bar , there are 2 tabs welded to the front of the A arm and I'm going to assume his strut is a threaded tube with a hiem joint at the end that connects to the lower control arm .
Posted By: dbran451

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/15/11 12:23 AM

hey tubby here is a bump so you can find this
Posted By: earthmover

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/15/11 01:04 AM

you know i have some ???????? for you guys that have done this and some that have not lol..anyway on the back of the mount where the t-bar went in i see freds is drilled and have a bolt and gregs is done with a bushing and bolt all the way through it whats the thoughts on weldinga plate with a nut on the inside of the hoel wher the t-bar was at and just bolting it up that way ???the bolt would have a shoulder on it to let the lca travel or is it stronger to just do it as gregsdart is????also fred did you have to heat and bend the lower ball joint mounts when you moved them from side to side????? thanks
Posted By: earthmover

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/15/11 08:22 AM

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/15/11 07:51 PM

To properly do this, if you mount a rack, the steering rack should be mounted in line with the pivot point of the lower control arms. If you swap factory ball joints side for side, the steering mount will be too high, to properly line up. This causes serious bump steer issues, so the steering arms need to be bent down, which is how Freds are done.

There are many ways to do this, just have to use some imagination. One way, is to install a different spindle, such as a Mustang II. This allows you to custom build steering arms, but you also need a custom lower control arm. I have also removed the ball joint eye, from the end of factory lower control arms, welded it to the back of a factory spindle, made new lower control arms and built custom steering arms. I did this, because I had disc brakes already for Mopar spindles. I have also cut the spindle itself from a Mopar steering knuckle and grafted that spindle on to another type knuckle...................You can't always buy every piece you need to make something work....you have to build it yourself.....it's called "hotrodding"................lol

Monte
Posted By: earthmover

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/15/11 08:22 PM

thanks monte whats your thoughts on welding a plate to the t-bar mount and useing a bolt so it will move with the lca when needed????or is there a better way of doing it...the rack is not a must but would like to do the coil over
Posted By: earthmover

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/17/11 02:08 AM

anybody
Posted By: 72Challenger

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/17/11 10:24 AM

When I was thinking about doing the coil over thing I planned on "rounding out" the tbar mount of the lower arms so for example a upper control arm bushing could be fitted snug in the tbar mount. Then install a u-shaped bracket onto the chassis with an extension to the tbar mount with a bolt or something fiting snug into the bushing. This way it would have support in all directions, bushings can be replaced if needed, etc.

Neverd did the conversion though.
Just a thought...
Posted By: gregsdart

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/17/11 01:57 PM

On my early A body I had to get the rack high enough to avoid interference between the front strut rod and the tie rods. Also had to cut, shorten and weld the ends of the ball joints back on to get them roughly where I wanted them and also as short as needed for good turning radius. If you don't shorten them a lot, you will have a very big turning radius. For street duty you will also need disc brakes so you can move the tierod ends out far enough to get proper ackerman angle. Mine aren't out far enough in this photo.

Attached picture 6422772-dartpics007.jpg
Posted By: dbran451

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/24/11 06:10 PM

One last bump tubby
Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a arms?? - 01/24/11 06:31 PM

Quote:

On a side note...

Fred, you think with the way you have your arms setup etc. a rack / pinion steering would fit using a stock k-member too?




I have nothing to compare against and not sure if they both occupy the same space
Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/24/11 07:11 PM

Quote:

thanks monte whats your thoughts on welding a plate to the t-bar mount and useing a bolt so it will move with the lca when needed????or is there a better way of doing it...the rack is not a must but would like to do the coil over

Does not matter how you support the rear of the control arm, some do nothing, just let it hang there. You could cut off a T-bar, drill and tap it, stick it in the control arm, weld a bracket to the frame and bolt it up. Without the T-bar tension bolt, the arm moves freely. Many ways to support the arm in the rear.

Monte
Posted By: earthmover

Re: coil over front end with stock upper and lower a ar - 01/24/11 07:14 PM

you guys are great thanks mike
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